O-USA Fee Change Proposal.

[Gord Hunter]

Representing one of the clubs that would be most affected by the proposed fee structure change for club membership in O-USA I have to put these comments forward.

ClubNet seems the best place to do it.

Insurance: There probably is not a club in Orienteering USA that does not consider event insurance to be THE primary benefit of O-USA membership. I know there are ‘rogue clubs’ out there that operate orienteering events outside of this benefit. Others who operate special group events and count on the group to provide the insurance. Suncoast Orienteering could choose either of those routes but have not done so. For the last re-charter of all the clubs in O-USA our small club paid the 8th most recharter fees, almost all of it based on starts in 2021.

It seems the club recharter fee, based on some minor fixed amounts and a levy for each the past year’s participation, is a cash cow for O-USA. Seems that less than half the recharter fee goes to pay for club event insurance and that with the waiving of the NRE fees we local clubs are subsidizing the fee expenses for the NRE’s.

But here is the BIG rub. By this proposal you are asking us to pay something based on changing an amount we expected to pay and budgeted for through 2022. Suncoast Orienteering held some six events already in 2022 and charged fees expecting that $1.50 – not $2 nor $1.75 would be forwarded to O-USA. If there is to be a fee change it should not be effective until it is charged on the 2023 events. We could deal with that. We can pass that cost on to the participants.

But with the current proposal to effect a retroactive fee means us going back to our JROTC participants and telling them that we will not be able to support their travel to the Junior Nationals or some other event because we must fork over another $1,000 to Orienteering USA, yes $1,000.  That is not very good PR for us or for O-USA.

So if there must be an increase in O-USA club fees -and the financial statement does not seem to justify it – on behalf of Suncoast Orienteering I argue that increase should not come into effect until the recharter process involving event starts to be paid in 2023. That we can deal with. 

I would appreciate hearing other club's opinions.

Best regards,

Gord Hunter

Suncoast Orienteering

[Bob Putnam]

Dear All:

Let this be a resounding "Second" to Gord's comments.

"...increase should not come into effect until the recharter process involving event starts to be paid in 2023."

Speaking for Florida Orienteering, we too would be hit with another $1K or so, RETROACTIVELY, for 2022 events; we have had 7 so far and, except for the hurricane, we'd have 8 as of this weekend with another three scheduled.

Bob Putnam

V.P. FLO

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[Alec Richardson]

It is good to hear some people providing their opinion on this change.  I have been working on a detailed analysis on the effect Badger Orienteering Club's proposal would have on clubs which I hope to send out tonight. 

In the meantime I would like to provide a few high level thoughts that I had.

1) I agree with the proposal's premise that just charging for starts vs memberships is more "fair".

2) A change in fee structure should be close to revenue neutral for OUSA.

3) I think any increase in fees should first apply to the next years' starts to give clubs a chance to adjust their pricing to accomodate for it.

4) The new proposal will cause any clubs which do not have many members to have to pay more, and if those clubs have a large number of starts, like the Florida clubs, it will be a lot more.

Thanks,

Alec Richardson

President

Central Va Orienteering Club (CVOC)

www.CenralVaOrienteering.com

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[Gale Teschendorf]

Speaking for myself, this is the kind of discussion starter I like to see.

[Joseph Huberman]

Regarding Badger's proposal, I will speak as a member of BOK. 

BOK requires Members to to be event directors and/or to assist in running the club so we have low membership in relation to our starts. Badger's  proposal will be more expensive for BOK, nevertheless, I support their proposal because I think that it is a fair way for OUSA to structure their fees. 

Insurance costs, the primary benefit to clubs, are based on the number of starts, so the club fees should be proportional to their starts. 

BOK offers discounts to season pass holders, where a membership fee is not required. On the other hand, many clubs offer entry fee discounts to their members.

Fees on club membership is a disincentive for clubs to have members. OUSA should not financially discourage club membership.

I think it is great that clubs offer discounts to their members. OUSA should not add an additional burden on top of the club"s discount. 

The bottom line is that it is just fair to base OUSA fees on the number of participants at events rather than how clubs structure their membership requirements. 

Joseph Huberman

President, BOK 

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[Mike Minium]

This is slightly off the main topic, but...

One thing I would really like to see clubs do is offer reciprocity on membership discounts (and access to "members only" events) to members of all OUSA clubs.  My primary club, OCIN, allows members of any OUSA club to participate in our events at member rates (and has always done this since our first event 38 years ago).   Years ago, this was always pretty much a given that you could go to an O' meet anywhere and say "I'm a member of ___," and run at the member rate, but it seems like recently more clubs are becoming more exclusive of welcoming out of town guests (who often bring new ideas, interesting stories and sometimes maps, and frequently even offer to help pick up controls).

Since more clubs have started using Event Reg for local event registration, this also seems to be more forgettable - clubs for example requiring a member "coupon code" to get the member discount.  In OCIN we have had great success with simply using the "custom items" in Event Reg to ask if you are a "member of OCIN or any other OUSA club", and letting the custom item give the discount (instead of having to remember or look up or ask for a coupon code).  We haven't found this system to be abused, although occasionally a recently expired member needs to be reminded that it is time to renew.

Mike Minium, OCIN

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[Ellen Stefaniak]

Mike,

That's a good "recipe" to add to Gord's cook book.

Ellen

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[Andrea Schneider]

Answering as a MNOC member: MNOC has done so, too, regarding honoring membership reciprocity. 

What our "members only" event is concerned, it has lately been primarily an AGM with food and maybe sone fun activities event, not a meet with AGM, without any maps or courses, done at a small urban park during the week, easily accessible for those getting off work. So it really depends on what the format and scope of a "members only" event is. We have not called it "members only" lately as far as I remember, either, but there is also not much stuff for a newcomer or guest to do, and other OUSA members, if guests were in town, they would definitely have been welcome to come.

Andrea Schneider

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[Alec Richardson]

I have completed my analysis on the historical data.  Thanks to Jon Torrance for sending it out.

I only analyzed the years 2004-2019. The explanation on why these years is at the bottom.

I have a whole lot of sums and averages in the attached spreadsheet, but I have included what I feel is the most important summary info in the body of this email. For the years mentioned, if you average the difference all clubs would have had to pay under the new fee structure, you get $46.88.  What is interesting though is when you look at the average percentage difference, you get -0.73%.  This means that clubs which were already paying a lot would have covered most of the increase in club fees.

Something else interesting that I discovered, thanks to Bluegrass OC's numbers for 2019, is that the break even point with the new fee structure is a members to starts ratio of 1 to 7.

Note that my numbers do not include the $20 per club renewal fee because there is no change to that in the proposal.

2004-2019 avg diff per year per club (all clubs)	2004-2019 avg diff per year (all clubs)	2004-2019 avg diff per year per club (current clubs)	2004-2019 avg diff per year (current clubs)	2004-2019 % diff per year per club (current clubs)	2019 avg diff per club (current clubs)	2019 total diff (current clubs)	2019 % diff per club (current clubs)
$39.97	$2,388.08	$46.88	$2,143.67	-0.73%	$86.19	$5,257.75	-0.78%

I chose the years I did because Jon mentioned in his spreadsheet that "the 2001 through 2003 numbers, at least, are probably not trustworthy due to chaos during the transition to counting start groups as we currently do.", and because as we all know 2020 and 2021 were not "normal" years.

Alec Richardson

President

Central Va Orienteering Club (CVOC)

www.CenralVaOrienteering.com

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 6:30 PM Joseph Huberman <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Bob Putnam]

Regardless of what that analysis showed, the original point was that the fee change ought not to be retroactive, but should begin only after the 2023 year is complete. That said, what an anomaly FLO and SOAR seem to be in terms of the added fees.

Bob P

[Info OCIN]

There is absolutely no intent to make any fee change retroactive.  The earliest any changes would take effect is the January 2024 recharter on 2023 data.

On Sep 27, 2022, at 11:16 AM, Bob Putnam <noizm...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ruth Bromer]

BOB, the intent is not to be retroactive and probably not start until 2024. That will be decided by the whole community at the AGM. Clubs need time to adjust their own fee structures if there are changes. (I don't speak as a board member.)

Ruth 

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[Joseph Huberman]

The Board agreed on a statement regarding the acceptance of the will of the AGM.

Here are the paragraphs relevant to this thread...

What will happen if the proposal passes?

If this proposal passes, the Board will follow the wishes of the membership and will eliminate the portion of the club charter fee that is based on the number of club members. We will adjust the per start fee to achieve our budget goals. There is no intent to raise the overall amount of revenue that comes in from club dues.

When would a change be effective?

The board strongly prefers that fee changes be made with a full year advance notice so that clubs may adjust their own fee structures as necessary. Unless there is strong member guidance to make this change immediately, we would postpone the change to the 2024 recharter cycle paying for 2023 starts.

Joseph

===========================

Joseph Huberman

OUSA BOD, VP Club Services

m. 919-610-1788

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[Alec Richardson]

It is good to get confirmation from the board that any changes would first apply to 2023 starts.

I had someone ask me if I came to any conclusions with my analysis (see Sep 27, 2022, 12:52 AM EDT email).  I would say it depends on what perspective you are looking at:

1) what is the most "fare"?

2) the effect on your club

3) the effect on OUSA

4) the effect on all clubs

For 1, I think each club needs to make this determination themselves.  

For 2, if you don't want to do the calculations yourselves, my spreadsheet shows how your club's fees would have been affected from 2004-2019.

For 3, my analysis shows that from 2004-2019 OUSA would have gained about $2,400 per year if the proposed fee structure had been in place.

For 4, overall about the same number of clubs would have benefited as those that would have been hurt, but the clubs which would have been hurt the most would have been hurt more then the clubs that would have benefited the most. clubs would benefit a lot while others would be hurt even more.  Below are more details.

If you took the amount I mentioned in #3 above and split it evenly amongst the approximately 58 clubs which paid fees in any given year, then each club would have paid about $40 more per year.  I think every club would be able to afford that, but the increase would not have been spread out evenly.  The number of clubs on each side ended up about the same in my analysis, but some clubs would have been disproportionately affected.  I have included below a listing of the clubs which would have benefited the most and those who would have been benefited the least.  In case anyone is curious, Badger would have paid about an average of $11 more per year.

Based on membership and start data for 2004-2019
4 biggest winners in terms of actual dollars			6 biggest winners in terms of the change in fees paid as a % of the amount paid under the current fee structure. The top 2 had a combined fewer than 25 starts.
Club Name	avg diff per year		Club Name	Total % Diff
MINNESOTA OC	-391.03		Lone Star OC	-100.00%
ROCKY MOUNTAIN OC	-252.31		New Jersey Orienteering - NRC	-63.01%
CHICAGO AREA OC	-239.16		US MILITARY ACADEMY OC	-28.67%
BUFFALO OC	-207.13		BUFFALO OC	-26.75%
			LONG ISLAND OC	-25.09%
			GREEN MTN OC	-21.85%
4 biggest losers in terms of actual dollars			4 biggest losers in terms of the change in fees paid as a % of the amount paid under the current fee structure.
Club Name	avg diff per year		Club Name	Total % Diff
SUNCOAST O	750.88		Nav-X Map Adventures	31.65%
CASCADE OC	690.28		SUNCOAST O	30.67%
NORTH TEXAS O' ASSN	636.28		CENTRAL VIRGINIA OC	29.34%
FLORIDA O'	595.75		LARAMIE RANGE OC	29.24%

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[Ruth Bromer]

A club can raise their entry fees per start by $.50 and not lose any money.

Ruth 

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[Gord Hunter]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 04:10:23 p.m. EDT, Ruth Bromer <ru...@treklite.com> wrote:

A club can raise their entry fees per start by $.50 and not lose any money.

Ruth 

Yes and clubs can lower their membership fee and not lose any money, too. 

Now that the board/ president has clarified that any change approved by the membership would not be enacted by the Board until the end of the 2023 season and we would have time to adjust our fees to meet that new cost I'm pretty satisfied.

Seeing for most clubs that it is the members who are paying the entry fees it should be six of one/ half dozen of the other for them. 

Here is the situation for Suncoast Orienteering. 

• We split the revenue from the $11/cadet JROTC entry $6 for our 'map fee' $5 which the host school uses for medals and trophies and hopefully a bit of fundraising.
• Our $6 goes to event expenses and OUSA levy, extra that gets divvied out to teams going to national events and an equipment repair reserve.
• When that reserve grows to $1,000 we lower our map fee to $5
• In the future if the Badger proposal passes we will probably make the $6 permanent and pay the extra to O-USA out of that pot.

(We do really well having a couple of leaders that generously do not charge their expenses back to the club. And with free mapping!! Not every club can be so lucky.) 

Gord Hunter

[Boris Granovskiy]

Hi all,

I noticed the proposal from BGR does not address fees for Associate Clubs. Would they be affected by the proposal? (Currently, I believe Associate Clubs pay $1.50 per start and $2 per member, though I can't seem to find a confirmation of this on the OUSA website.)

Thanks!

- Boris

Grizzly Orienteering

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[Andrea Schneider]

@Alec: Is there a breakdown in the members of a club as regular/family members and members that factor in from group memberships?

A club with group memberships (like MNOC) gets impacted far more by the membership number that gets reported to OUSA than clubs with only individual and family memberships. And such number of members from a group membership is also more difficult to calculate if the group is not a fixed one, but rather dynamic as MNOC does allow the groups to bring any of their current members to any meet throughout the calendar year (does not require a group to state in advance names of their participants).

Of the "winners" clubs listed, only MNOC offers a group membership.

Andrea

Commenting as a MNOC member who absolutely wants MNOC to be able keep offering the group membership to our JROTC schools and other groups.

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[Alec Richardson]

Boris, if you are correct this is something missing from my calculations.  The OUSA data that I saw did not designate if a club was an associate one.

Andrea, the OUSA numbers only include 1 number for members.  I do not do the rechartering for my club, and although I have seen the rechartering form, I do not remember for sure whether it has separate fields for different types of membership or whether it is up to the clubs to do the calculations.  I believe though that it just has 1 field, so for example, CVOC has no membership ourselves so we just count the OUSA members in our club.  For 2021 we had 2 individuals and 2 family memberships, so we put a total of 6 members on the form.

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[Joseph Huberman]

One other point that has not come up...

When a club holds a free event - where there is no charge or membership requirement then OUSA does not count those starts for a fee calculation.

I would assume that this policy will continue if the Badger proposal is approved.

Joseph

================================
Joseph Huberman
President, BOK

OUSA VP Club Services

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[Boris Granovskiy]

Alec,

If you look at the club charter data here, you'll see the designation of Associate vs Regular club. The current fee structure for associate clubs ($2.00 per membership, but otherwise same as for regular clubs) is addressed here. I think the Badger proposal would need to have a stipulation of fees for associate clubs in order to be adopted.

Thanks for your analysis!

- Boris

On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 12:32 AM Alec Richardson <hok...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Ellen Stefaniak]

Regarding events where a club isn't charging participants, wouldn't we still need to pay into the fee calculation since any starts from that event would be covered by our insurance?

If we don't need to count starts when the whole event is free, what about when a specific start is free at a normal event?  For instance, my club doesn't charge a fee when a Scout is working on a requirement or a badge.  Would those be exempted from the counts? 

Ellen

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[Boris Granovskiy]

Ellen, there is decent guidance on this in the Chartering Instructions document here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1AkWmWS41nCVeB4O_0LNw24m1sg6YaYfp

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[Ellen Stefaniak]

Thanks Boris.  It's been almost a year since I did our rechartering, so I'd forgotten some of the nuances.  That answers my question; events that are completely free aren't counted, but individuals who may be free at an otherwise charged event would count.

[Joseph Huberman]

In my opinion any start that is free should not be charged an OUSA start fee. This policy makes it easier for clubs to offer free entries to attract new people. 

I was under the impression that the above is the current policy. If that is not the current policy then I think we should adopt it. 

The insurance cost is much less than $1.50 per start, so waiving the fee for free events isn't a problem. 

Joseph Huberman

OUSA VP Club Services 

[Sandy Fillebrown]

Was any consideration given to charging less per start for juniors? 

My sense is that the change in fee structure will impact clubs with large junior participation the most.

I think it would also be good for OUSA to track junior starts.  I don't think they do at the moment but I could be wrong about that.

Sandy

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[Andrea Schneider]

I second Sandy's point on juniors, especially if that is tracked somewhere, either in the results and/or registration

The calculations on whether someone attended for free or with a discount coupon, volunteered or who knows what other method, however, that is much harder to track and IMO adds to the burden on the club's volunteer handling the rechartering and/or on the entire tracking process for a club, especially if a club has already a small work force or has to first has to elaborately train a new registration volunteer on the recording and submission of such data.

Andrea Schneider

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[B. Brooke Mann]

Tracking juniors vs. adults would also add a volunteer burden for clubs like RMOC that don't currently have a way to capture that info.  (Our database for pre-reg & results only has male/female/team classification -- not adult/junior.)

-- Brooke, RMOC

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[Ruth Bromer]

Same for BOK. Also, a lot of times, juniors go with an adult, especially on white and yellow.

Ruth 

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[Galen A. Moore]

I  would also strongly like to see $0 start fees for any free start adopted as policy.

Thanks,

Galen

Colorado Navigation Games

[Clinton Morse]

Some clubs I belong to (NEOC, UNO) offer free event entry to all local events for members.  Incentive to become a member, increases event attendance and streamlines registration process on the day of the event.

Making free starts have $0 fee would significantly decrease recharter revenue to OUSA for these types of clubs.  Just something to think about.

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[Ruth Bromer]

Clinton,

I think that free entry when a person has purchased a membership to give them free entry doesn't count as actually free because the person purchased a membership. BOK gives free entry to anyone purchasing an annual pass but I always count those as if the person paid for the event. So for the $7 entry fee, they get $7 off rather than something like $2 off. They are still paying, only annually. 

And we do this to make it easier for the event director, which makes it easier for me as the treasurer to process the income. Everything we do is to make it easier for the organizers. 

We have a high price for the annual pass. The person has to attend more than 6 events to get a discount. If they attend 6 or fewer, then they spend more over the year. 

A free event is different, or giving a free entry to first timers to bring them into the sport is different.

Ruth 

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