Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA version details?
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Mister Kayne
Mar 21, 2026, 9:05:02 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to NVDA-Users Group (nvda-users@nvaccess.org)
Dear NVDA Users,
I am writing to seek some advice or perhaps suggest a workaround for a struggle I consistently face when trying to identify the specific NVDA version I am running.
Currently, I navigate to the NVDA Menu > Help > About, but I find it incredibly difficult to actually capture the version information from that dialogue. I have tried a few methods without success:
• Standard Selection: I’ve tried to Shift+Tab to the text, then use Ctrl+A and Ctrl+C to copy the details, but it doesn't seem to work.
• OCR: When I run OCR on the dialogue, it often only recognizes the "OK" button and misses the version text entirely.
It has reached a point where I have to resort to third-party apps like Be My Eyes just to have someone read or capture the version for me, which feels like it should be unnecessary.
I was wondering:
1. Is there a specific technique or shortcut that the rest of you use to copy this information quickly to the clipboard?
2. Would it be worth requesting a "Copy App Details" button in that dialogue box (perhaps placed before the OK button) to make this process more accessible?
I would appreciate any tips or thoughts you might have on how to handle this more efficiently.
Warm regards,
Mister Kayne
Author: The Somebody, Nobody, Anybody & Everybody Blog!
Mail: writ...@mister-kayne.com
Sent from Outlook® for Windows 11
joseph....@gmail.com
Mar 21, 2026, 9:10:08 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Hi,
Your wish was granted in NVDA 2026.1 (beta).
Cheers,
Joseph
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cearbhall o'meadhra
Mar 21, 2026, 9:28:09 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Mr. Kane,
I use the number pad to position on the version details.
- Press NVDA with numpad “-“
- NVDA & numpad 7 to select either object review or Screen review
3. Numpad 4 to Position on the “NVDA “line
- Numpad 6 to move to the word “version”
- NVDA&F9 to mark the beginning of “version”
- Numpad 6 to move to the last digit of the version number
- NVDA&F10 twice to copy the selected characters to the clipboard
You can then paste it wherever you wish.
These steps sound complicated when laid out step by step, but it is surprisingly simple to carry out.
From: nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org> On Behalf Of Mister Kayne
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2026 1:05 PM
To: NVDA-Users Group (nvda-...@nvaccess.org) <nvda-...@nvaccess.org>
Subject: [NVDA] Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA version details?
Dear NVDA Users,
--
Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 9:34:37 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
I saw Joseph's answer but I will discuss the question because your
discussion indicates no knowledge of object navigation nor of the add-on
that allows virtualization of a window. These two abilities allow you
to copy information to the clipboard from any place where there is no
application cursor.
The dialog you are working with has no cursor so you can't copy and
paste in the usual way. There is no way to select text and thus no way
to copy it.
Rather than go into a discussion of object navigation here, I'll say
that it is one way to do what you want and gives you access to
information you may not get in other ways, such as in program windows
that don't have an application cursor. The add-on to virtualize a
Window is available from the add-on store. I almost never use it, but
other list members can likely provide the command to virtualize the
window you are in so you can move around in it as though there were a
cursor, select text, and copy it to the clipboard. Ask if you want more
information.
It is called virtualizing a window because it provides a virtual cursor
which isn't actually there, which allows you to move around the text,
and select whatever you want, then copy it to the clipboard.
If it were just a question of getting the specific information you want,
I wouldn't have discussed this but you may find it important to know
something about object navigation and/or virtualizing a Window in future.
Gene
> <https://www.mister-kayne.com/>
>
> Mail: writ...@mister-kayne.com <mailto:writ...@mister-kayne.com>
discussion indicates no knowledge of object navigation nor of the add-on
that allows virtualization of a window. These two abilities allow you
to copy information to the clipboard from any place where there is no
application cursor.
The dialog you are working with has no cursor so you can't copy and
paste in the usual way. There is no way to select text and thus no way
to copy it.
Rather than go into a discussion of object navigation here, I'll say
that it is one way to do what you want and gives you access to
information you may not get in other ways, such as in program windows
that don't have an application cursor. The add-on to virtualize a
Window is available from the add-on store. I almost never use it, but
other list members can likely provide the command to virtualize the
window you are in so you can move around in it as though there were a
cursor, select text, and copy it to the clipboard. Ask if you want more
information.
It is called virtualizing a window because it provides a virtual cursor
which isn't actually there, which allows you to move around the text,
and select whatever you want, then copy it to the clipboard.
If it were just a question of getting the specific information you want,
I wouldn't have discussed this but you may find it important to know
something about object navigation and/or virtualizing a Window in future.
Gene
>
> Mail: writ...@mister-kayne.com <mailto:writ...@mister-kayne.com>
>
> Sent from Outlook® for Windows 11
>
> Sent from Outlook® for Windows 11
>
> --
> ***
> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
> nvda-user...@nvaccess.org.
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> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
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Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 9:36:56 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
I just checked. The name of the add-on is Virtual Review.
Gene
Gene
Sean Randall
Mar 21, 2026, 9:41:30 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Regardless of this specific use case, you’d do very well to learn to use the review cursor appropriately for any number of situations like this one.
Section 5.6 of the user’s manual discusses review modes and the subsection prior, 5.5, explains how to select and copy text from places in the Windows environment that don’t have a caret for where these review modes are most useful.
This is also handled very well in chapter 11 of the basic training for NVDA guide available from the NVAccess shop, which is well worth the investment, in my opinion.
Mister Kayne
Mar 21, 2026, 9:45:13 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Hi Gene, Joseph, and everyone else who chimed in,
Thank you all for the incredibly helpful responses.
Gene, I really appreciate you highlighting object navigation and the virtualization add-on. You are right—I wasn't fully aware of how those techniques could solve the lack of an application cursor in that dialogue. I will definitely explore the "Virtual Revision" or similar virtualization add-ons from the store, as being able to treat any window as a text area sounds like a vital skill for the future.
Joseph, if a native "Copy details" button is indeed planned for an upcoming version, that will be a very welcome addition for accessibility!
In the meantime, I’ll be practicing with the review cursor and the suggested add-ons to bridge the gap.
One quick follow-up for the group: I noticed I am currently on NVDA Version 2025.3.1. When I manually check for updates, it tells me that no updates are available. Is there a reason I’m not seeing a 2026 version yet, or is 2025.3.1 still the current stable release? I want to make sure I haven't misconfigured my update settings.
Thanks again for all the guidance!
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nvda-users+...@nvaccess.org.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/8f44275f-acfc-e5d6-78bb-690f356199cc%40gmail.com.
Thank you all for the incredibly helpful responses.
Gene, I really appreciate you highlighting object navigation and the virtualization add-on. You are right—I wasn't fully aware of how those techniques could solve the lack of an application cursor in that dialogue. I will definitely explore the "Virtual Revision" or similar virtualization add-ons from the store, as being able to treat any window as a text area sounds like a vital skill for the future.
Joseph, if a native "Copy details" button is indeed planned for an upcoming version, that will be a very welcome addition for accessibility!
In the meantime, I’ll be practicing with the review cursor and the suggested add-ons to bridge the gap.
One quick follow-up for the group: I noticed I am currently on NVDA Version 2025.3.1. When I manually check for updates, it tells me that no updates are available. Is there a reason I’m not seeing a 2026 version yet, or is 2025.3.1 still the current stable release? I want to make sure I haven't misconfigured my update settings.
Thanks again for all the guidance!
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/8f44275f-acfc-e5d6-78bb-690f356199cc%40gmail.com.
Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 9:59:39 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
The user guide does such a poor job of discussing object navigation that
I never refer anyone to it for that purpose. It actually discourages
learning of object navigation. It should be taught in a learn by doing
manner, as a good tutorial does, enough explanation to know basic things
like what an object is, but then it should be, do this, see where you
are and see how you can move and do that and see where you are etc. You
can't understand object navigation with a description. You have to
learn by doing.
I haven't looked to any extent to how review is covered in the User
Guide so I won't comment on that.
I hope that a tutorial replaces the current discussion of object
navigation in the User Guide.
Gene
On 3/21/2026 8:41 AM, Sean Randall wrote:
> Regardless of this specific use case, you’d do very well to learn to use
> the review cursor appropriately for any number of situations like this one.
>
> Section 5.6 of the user’s manual
> <thttps://download.nvaccess.org/documentation/userGuide.html#ReviewModes> discusses
> *cearbhall o'meadhra
> *Sent:* Saturday, 21 March 2026 13:28
> *To:* nvda-...@nvaccess.org
> *Subject:* RE: [NVDA] Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA
> 2. NVDA & numpad 7 to select either object review or Screen review
> 5. NVDA&F9 to mark the beginning of “version”
> 6. Numpad 6 to move to the last digit of the version number
> 7. NVDA&F10 twice to copy the selected characters to the clipboard
>
> *From:*nvda-...@nvaccess.org <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>
> <nvda-...@nvaccess.org <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>> *On Behalf Of
> *Mister Kayne
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2026 1:05 PM
> *To:* NVDA-Users Group (nvda-...@nvaccess.org
> <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>) <nvda-...@nvaccess.org
> <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>>
> *Subject:* [NVDA] Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA version
> <https://www.mister-kayne.com/>
>
> Mail: writ...@mister-kayne.com <mailto:writ...@mister-kayne.com>
> <https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/!%26!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAMZzFYyoko9Pu1KHZMHApGEBAMO2jhD3dRHOtM0AqgC7tuYAAAAAAA4AABAAAACN1V7UWCDvSIzftUikXzEYAQAAAAA%3D%40blbc.ie?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> <https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/007401dcb938%246a3a6030%243eaf2090%24%40seanrandall.me?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
I never refer anyone to it for that purpose. It actually discourages
learning of object navigation. It should be taught in a learn by doing
manner, as a good tutorial does, enough explanation to know basic things
like what an object is, but then it should be, do this, see where you
are and see how you can move and do that and see where you are etc. You
can't understand object navigation with a description. You have to
learn by doing.
I haven't looked to any extent to how review is covered in the User
Guide so I won't comment on that.
I hope that a tutorial replaces the current discussion of object
navigation in the User Guide.
Gene
On 3/21/2026 8:41 AM, Sean Randall wrote:
> Regardless of this specific use case, you’d do very well to learn to use
> the review cursor appropriately for any number of situations like this one.
>
> Section 5.6 of the user’s manual
> review modes and the subsection prior, 5.5, explains how to select and
> copy text from places in the Windows environment that don’t have a
> caret for where these review modes are most useful.
>
> This is also handled very well in chapter 11 of the basic training for
> NVDA guide available from the NVAccess shop
> <https://www.nvaccess.org/product/basic-training-for-nvda-ebook/>, which
> copy text from places in the Windows environment that don’t have a
> caret for where these review modes are most useful.
>
> This is also handled very well in chapter 11 of the basic training for
> NVDA guide available from the NVAccess shop
> is well worth the investment, in my opinion.
>
> *From:*nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org> *On Behalf Of
>
> *cearbhall o'meadhra
> *Sent:* Saturday, 21 March 2026 13:28
> *To:* nvda-...@nvaccess.org
> *Subject:* RE: [NVDA] Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA
> version details?
>
> Mr. Kane,
>
> I use the number pad to position on the version details.
>
> 1. Press NVDA with numpad “-“
>
> Mr. Kane,
>
> I use the number pad to position on the version details.
>
> 2. NVDA & numpad 7 to select either object review or Screen review
>
> 3. Numpad 4 to Position on the “NVDA “line
>
> 4. Numpad 6 to move to the word “version”
> 3. Numpad 4 to Position on the “NVDA “line
>
> 5. NVDA&F9 to mark the beginning of “version”
> 6. Numpad 6 to move to the last digit of the version number
> 7. NVDA&F10 twice to copy the selected characters to the clipboard
>
> You can then paste it wherever you wish.
>
> These steps sound complicated when laid out step by step, but it is
> surprisingly simple to carry out.
>
> All the best,
>
> Cearbhall
>
> M: +353 (0) 833323487; E: cearbhall...@blbc.ie
> <mailto:cearbhall...@blbc.ie>
> You can then paste it wherever you wish.
>
> These steps sound complicated when laid out step by step, but it is
> surprisingly simple to carry out.
>
> All the best,
>
> Cearbhall
>
> M: +353 (0) 833323487; E: cearbhall...@blbc.ie
>
> *From:*nvda-...@nvaccess.org <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>
> <nvda-...@nvaccess.org <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>> *On Behalf Of
> *Mister Kayne
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2026 1:05 PM
> *To:* NVDA-Users Group (nvda-...@nvaccess.org
> <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>) <nvda-...@nvaccess.org
> <mailto:nvda-...@nvaccess.org>>
> *Subject:* [NVDA] Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA version
>
> Mail: writ...@mister-kayne.com <mailto:writ...@mister-kayne.com>
>
> Sent from Outlook® for Windows 11
>
> --
> ***
> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
> nvda-user...@nvaccess.org <mailto:nvda-user...@nvaccess.org>.
> Sent from Outlook® for Windows 11
>
> --
> ***
> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to nvda-users+...@nvaccess.org
> <mailto:nvda-users+...@nvaccess.org>.
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>
> --
> ***
> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
> nvda-user...@nvaccess.org <mailto:nvda-user...@nvaccess.org>.
> --
> ***
> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
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>
> --
> ***
> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
> nvda-user...@nvaccess.org.
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> Please note: the NVDA project has a Citizen and Contributor Code of Conduct.
> NV Access expects that all community members will read and abide by the
> rules set out in this document while participating in this group.
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
> <https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>
>
> You can contact the group owners and moderators via
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> <https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/007401dcb938%246a3a6030%243eaf2090%24%40seanrandall.me?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Sean Randall
Mar 21, 2026, 10:14:22 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
the user guide is a reference work, not a tutorial. I certainly had no difficulty in using it to learn the keystrokes necessary to operate NVDA's various review modes.
Obviously NVAccess recognised that people feel as you do and created excellent supplementary training material to fill the gap.
I'd think that To expect the instruction manual to go into the level of training as the bespoke training materials is perhaps unrealistic.
Thanks
Sean
On 21 Mar 2026, at 13:59, Gene Asner <gsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
The user guide does such a poor job of discussing object navigation that I never refer anyone to it for that purpose. It actually discourages learning of object navigation. It should be taught in a learn by doing manner, as a good tutorial does, enough explanation to know basic things like what an object is, but then it should be, do this, see where you are and see how you can move and do that and see where you are etc. You can't understand object navigation with a description. You have to learn by doing.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nvda-users+...@nvaccess.org.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/0bedaed3-6674-038f-46ef-b96c373e0dc2%40gmail.com.
Obviously NVAccess recognised that people feel as you do and created excellent supplementary training material to fill the gap.
I'd think that To expect the instruction manual to go into the level of training as the bespoke training materials is perhaps unrealistic.
Thanks
Sean
On 21 Mar 2026, at 13:59, Gene Asner <gsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
The user guide does such a poor job of discussing object navigation that I never refer anyone to it for that purpose. It actually discourages learning of object navigation. It should be taught in a learn by doing manner, as a good tutorial does, enough explanation to know basic things like what an object is, but then it should be, do this, see where you are and see how you can move and do that and see where you are etc. You can't understand object navigation with a description. You have to learn by doing.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/0bedaed3-6674-038f-46ef-b96c373e0dc2%40gmail.com.
Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 10:57:18 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Here is a tutorial I wrote for someone on another list who asked about
object navigation a few days ago. It was originally written in more
than one message as part of a discussion and it isn't organized as a
formal tutorial would be. But I believe it will be helpful to people
who want to understand object navigation. I also help it will give an
idea of how I envision the User Guide Object Navigation section would be
rewritten.
Under my signature is the tutorial.
Gene
the main things to know are that an object may be very small or very
large. I don't know technically what the definition of an object is but
for practical purposes, it is something you can move to and at times
work with.
If you open a document, the document is one single object. You can tell
that by Using move right and left by line in an object. The commands are
numpad 9, move right, numpad 7 move left and numpad 8, read current line.
The commands correspond for smaller movements. Numpad 6 4 and 5, move
by word, numpad 3, 1, and 2, move by character.
Objects often have other objects in them and you can often move up to
higher objects. For example, if you open a document in the Windows 11
notepad, you are in the document, one object.
You can't move to a lower object, there is no object in the document.
The command to move to an object inside an object is numpad insert,
numpad 2.
If you move to a higher object, numpad insert numpad 8, you are in an
object still in Notepad but higher than the document. You will hear the
title of the document and then Notepad Window. You are in Notepad but
not in the lowest level, the document object. You can try moving to the
right and left but there is nowhere to move in this object. It is a
very small object.
If you move to the next object to the right if there is one to move to,
you will hear something, in this case, I don't know what you will hear,
because I don't know what else is opened in your computer but you will
move to an object for another program or I should say, for something in
that program but there is nothing in Notepad to move to the right to so
you move into an object for something else.. Move right by object is
numpad insert, numpad 6. Move left is numpad insert numpad 4. Numpad
insert, numpad 5 announces part or the whole of the current object,
depending on it's size.
Let's say you keep moving up and get to the desktop. Or let's say you
move up once in Notepad, then try to move down again to the object where
you started. You won't be back where you started. You will be in
another object maybe in the same program but not where you started. I
don't know why that is but you can easily move back to where you
started. The object navigator, by default, moves as the cursor moves.
If you are in a Notepad document not the object nnavigator, but where
you are working in the program window itself, no matter where the object
navigator is, and you move the cursor, even by one character, the
navigator object will be on the character you have moved to and you are
back in the same object. Move anywhere you want in the document and the
navigator object will be there. That's true in lists and other
structures as well. Move with the arrow keys to return. Or if you
can't for some reason, going to the desktop and alt tabbing back moves
you to where you started. Alt tabbing to another opened program and
back will as well.
You may have questions but this will, I hope, give you a framework to
understand what you are doing.
Here are the movement keys in one place:
Move by line, right, numpad 9, left, numpad 7, read current, numpad 8.
Lower numbers move in the same ways in smaller units.
Numpad 4, 5, and 6, move by word..
Move to higher object, numpad insert, numpad 8.
Move to lower object, numpad insert numpad 2.
Move left by object, numpad insert, numpad 4.
Move to the right by object, numpad insert, numpad 6.
Numpad insert numpad 5 reads the current object or part of it, depending
on it's size,
Object navigation is used when you can't see information in ways such as
by moving a cursor, because there is none. Even if you can hear
information in a dialog without using object navigation. open object
navigation and move around using different commands previously given.
For example, open the About NVDA dialog, NVDA key n, h, a. The point
isn't that you hear the dialog spoken when it opens. the point is to
move around and get experience with object navigation.
You will find that you can't move using numpad 7 or numpad 9.
You are in a very small object and if you use read current object line,
numpad 8, you hear OK button. That is the object you are in.
The next thing to do is experiment. What happens if you move up to the
next object with numpad insert numpad 8. You can move around and you
will hear the information in the dialog spoken as you move.
In short, don't worry if you can hear items like dialogs spoken when you
open them and tab around. Use object navigation for experience and
familiarization.
Another example is to try things on the desktop.
Once there, read the current object line with numpad 8. You will hear
the same thing as you do with the other read current line. you can't
move using numpad 9 or 7. You are in a very small object, that one
desktop icon.
Now, move from object to object with numpad insert, numpad 4 or six. You
hear other desktop icons and you have moved to the one you hear. They
are all very small objects, all one icon.
If you move up to the next object, numpad insert numpad 8, the same as
you used in the about dialog, you are in an object that says desktop
list. That's the object above the one where you were.
Move down to the object inside the desktop list object. You are, once
again, on the single desktop icon you were on before you moved up.
Often, when you move down, after you move up, you won't be in the same
place you were before. As I said perhaps two days ago, move in ways
that will place you where you started if that's where you want to be. Up
and down arrow in the list to the same icon, Alt tab to another program,
then move back to the desktop, open the start menu, press escape, then
return to the desktop, move however you want not using object
navigation, then move back.
object navigation a few days ago. It was originally written in more
than one message as part of a discussion and it isn't organized as a
formal tutorial would be. But I believe it will be helpful to people
who want to understand object navigation. I also help it will give an
idea of how I envision the User Guide Object Navigation section would be
rewritten.
Under my signature is the tutorial.
Gene
the main things to know are that an object may be very small or very
large. I don't know technically what the definition of an object is but
for practical purposes, it is something you can move to and at times
work with.
If you open a document, the document is one single object. You can tell
that by Using move right and left by line in an object. The commands are
numpad 9, move right, numpad 7 move left and numpad 8, read current line.
The commands correspond for smaller movements. Numpad 6 4 and 5, move
by word, numpad 3, 1, and 2, move by character.
Objects often have other objects in them and you can often move up to
higher objects. For example, if you open a document in the Windows 11
notepad, you are in the document, one object.
You can't move to a lower object, there is no object in the document.
The command to move to an object inside an object is numpad insert,
numpad 2.
If you move to a higher object, numpad insert numpad 8, you are in an
object still in Notepad but higher than the document. You will hear the
title of the document and then Notepad Window. You are in Notepad but
not in the lowest level, the document object. You can try moving to the
right and left but there is nowhere to move in this object. It is a
very small object.
If you move to the next object to the right if there is one to move to,
you will hear something, in this case, I don't know what you will hear,
because I don't know what else is opened in your computer but you will
move to an object for another program or I should say, for something in
that program but there is nothing in Notepad to move to the right to so
you move into an object for something else.. Move right by object is
numpad insert, numpad 6. Move left is numpad insert numpad 4. Numpad
insert, numpad 5 announces part or the whole of the current object,
depending on it's size.
Let's say you keep moving up and get to the desktop. Or let's say you
move up once in Notepad, then try to move down again to the object where
you started. You won't be back where you started. You will be in
another object maybe in the same program but not where you started. I
don't know why that is but you can easily move back to where you
started. The object navigator, by default, moves as the cursor moves.
If you are in a Notepad document not the object nnavigator, but where
you are working in the program window itself, no matter where the object
navigator is, and you move the cursor, even by one character, the
navigator object will be on the character you have moved to and you are
back in the same object. Move anywhere you want in the document and the
navigator object will be there. That's true in lists and other
structures as well. Move with the arrow keys to return. Or if you
can't for some reason, going to the desktop and alt tabbing back moves
you to where you started. Alt tabbing to another opened program and
back will as well.
You may have questions but this will, I hope, give you a framework to
understand what you are doing.
Here are the movement keys in one place:
Move by line, right, numpad 9, left, numpad 7, read current, numpad 8.
Lower numbers move in the same ways in smaller units.
Numpad 4, 5, and 6, move by word..
Move to higher object, numpad insert, numpad 8.
Move to lower object, numpad insert numpad 2.
Move left by object, numpad insert, numpad 4.
Move to the right by object, numpad insert, numpad 6.
Numpad insert numpad 5 reads the current object or part of it, depending
on it's size,
Object navigation is used when you can't see information in ways such as
by moving a cursor, because there is none. Even if you can hear
information in a dialog without using object navigation. open object
navigation and move around using different commands previously given.
For example, open the About NVDA dialog, NVDA key n, h, a. The point
isn't that you hear the dialog spoken when it opens. the point is to
move around and get experience with object navigation.
You will find that you can't move using numpad 7 or numpad 9.
You are in a very small object and if you use read current object line,
numpad 8, you hear OK button. That is the object you are in.
The next thing to do is experiment. What happens if you move up to the
next object with numpad insert numpad 8. You can move around and you
will hear the information in the dialog spoken as you move.
In short, don't worry if you can hear items like dialogs spoken when you
open them and tab around. Use object navigation for experience and
familiarization.
Another example is to try things on the desktop.
Once there, read the current object line with numpad 8. You will hear
the same thing as you do with the other read current line. you can't
move using numpad 9 or 7. You are in a very small object, that one
desktop icon.
Now, move from object to object with numpad insert, numpad 4 or six. You
hear other desktop icons and you have moved to the one you hear. They
are all very small objects, all one icon.
If you move up to the next object, numpad insert numpad 8, the same as
you used in the about dialog, you are in an object that says desktop
list. That's the object above the one where you were.
Move down to the object inside the desktop list object. You are, once
again, on the single desktop icon you were on before you moved up.
Often, when you move down, after you move up, you won't be in the same
place you were before. As I said perhaps two days ago, move in ways
that will place you where you started if that's where you want to be. Up
and down arrow in the list to the same icon, Alt tab to another program,
then move back to the desktop, open the start menu, press escape, then
return to the desktop, move however you want not using object
navigation, then move back.
Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 11:02:13 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
You can learn object navigation key strokes using the manual but that
doesn't mean you will understand what they do. The manual should be
flexible and, if something needs a tutorial to be taught in an
understandable manner, it should be done in that way. Having a section
that actually discourages learning by making object navigation seem
impenetrably complex when, if taught properly it isn't, is actually
working against encouraging learning of it.
Gene
doesn't mean you will understand what they do. The manual should be
flexible and, if something needs a tutorial to be taught in an
understandable manner, it should be done in that way. Having a section
that actually discourages learning by making object navigation seem
impenetrably complex when, if taught properly it isn't, is actually
working against encouraging learning of it.
Gene
joseph....@gmail.com
Mar 21, 2026, 11:08:29 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Hi,
A couple things about the user guide (a separate topic really):
1. User guide is one of the first lengthy documentation people will read when using NVDA (maybe for the first time). As such, the expectation is that a user guide is user friendly and can address all sorts of usage scenarios. I strongly urge the NVDA community to move AWAY from that mindset - as Sean pointed out, a user guide is a basic reference, not an encompassing compendium on everything NVDA.
2. user guides and similar technical documentation is written to address an "ideal" audience member, and that depends on who we ask. For some, it is a new screen reader starting out with zero knowledge on what a screen reader is. For some, it is a seasoned screen reader user wishing to switch screen readers. For some, it is a software developer wishing to learn how screen readers work in general and apply to this knowledge their product design guidelines. If I am to describe the "ideal" reader for the user guide, it would be someone with some experience with screen readers and can recognize concepts from other tools while learning about what NVDA is. If that happens to be the case, then we should indeed move away from the mindset that NVDA user guide is an encyclopedia written for the general screen reader using public.
3. Remember that most of the contributors to the English (source) NVDA user guide are folks with varying levels of software development experience. This means that how most authors conceptualize and write about NVDA mechanics (some familiarity with other screen readers and GUI) is at a different location (or a plane) compared to expectations from end users, although I would add that this has changed some in recent NVDA releases (the quick start guide included in the user guide is a good evidence of the effort made to make the user guide more user friendly). Further, some of the contributors to the English user guide might not have received training on technical communication, including audience analysis, word count and length, ladder of abstraction, internationalization, promotion strategies, and accessible document design. Some of the craft of writing user facing documentation cannot be learned in formal education - writing user guides so well require intuition and showing care for user concerns. If you want proof, read the documentation for my own add-ons as they will show user friendliness of user guides across a spectrum (I am told that I write some of the best NVDA guides, but I have long ways to go).
Cheers,
Jospeh
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/AA03EE29-FB40-4580-A932-CB58401CE747%40seanrandall.me.
A couple things about the user guide (a separate topic really):
1. User guide is one of the first lengthy documentation people will read when using NVDA (maybe for the first time). As such, the expectation is that a user guide is user friendly and can address all sorts of usage scenarios. I strongly urge the NVDA community to move AWAY from that mindset - as Sean pointed out, a user guide is a basic reference, not an encompassing compendium on everything NVDA.
2. user guides and similar technical documentation is written to address an "ideal" audience member, and that depends on who we ask. For some, it is a new screen reader starting out with zero knowledge on what a screen reader is. For some, it is a seasoned screen reader user wishing to switch screen readers. For some, it is a software developer wishing to learn how screen readers work in general and apply to this knowledge their product design guidelines. If I am to describe the "ideal" reader for the user guide, it would be someone with some experience with screen readers and can recognize concepts from other tools while learning about what NVDA is. If that happens to be the case, then we should indeed move away from the mindset that NVDA user guide is an encyclopedia written for the general screen reader using public.
3. Remember that most of the contributors to the English (source) NVDA user guide are folks with varying levels of software development experience. This means that how most authors conceptualize and write about NVDA mechanics (some familiarity with other screen readers and GUI) is at a different location (or a plane) compared to expectations from end users, although I would add that this has changed some in recent NVDA releases (the quick start guide included in the user guide is a good evidence of the effort made to make the user guide more user friendly). Further, some of the contributors to the English user guide might not have received training on technical communication, including audience analysis, word count and length, ladder of abstraction, internationalization, promotion strategies, and accessible document design. Some of the craft of writing user facing documentation cannot be learned in formal education - writing user guides so well require intuition and showing care for user concerns. If you want proof, read the documentation for my own add-ons as they will show user friendliness of user guides across a spectrum (I am told that I write some of the best NVDA guides, but I have long ways to go).
Cheers,
Jospeh
Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 11:30:50 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Are you saying you agree or disagree that the User Guide should discuss
object navigation as it currently does? I am not making any general
statements about revising the User Guide nor its purpose nor its
intended audience. I am saying that most people can't learn object
navigation as presented in the manual and that it actually discourages
learning of it by presenting it in the way it does.
If the User Guide said at the beginning of its discussion, we strongly
encourage those who wish to learn object navigation to use NVDA's basic
training material. This section presents information but it is not
intended for learning object navigation. It presents information for
those already familiar with the concept who want to use it in NVDA, that
would be a useful change.
You said the User Guide is intended for an audience already familiar
with screen-readers. Object navigation is not a common feature in
screen-readers so the intended audience would seldom know about it, so
for this topic, the intended audience doesn't match what the audience
would be expected to know, no matter how familiar with screen-readers in
general. I have never heard of object navigation used in other
screen-readers and I have used ASAP, Vocal-eyes, ASAW, Window-eyes, and
JAWS and I have never come across object navigation until NVDA. I am
not objecting to object navigation. I am objecting to how it is handled
object navigation as it currently does? I am not making any general
statements about revising the User Guide nor its purpose nor its
intended audience. I am saying that most people can't learn object
navigation as presented in the manual and that it actually discourages
learning of it by presenting it in the way it does.
If the User Guide said at the beginning of its discussion, we strongly
encourage those who wish to learn object navigation to use NVDA's basic
training material. This section presents information but it is not
intended for learning object navigation. It presents information for
those already familiar with the concept who want to use it in NVDA, that
would be a useful change.
You said the User Guide is intended for an audience already familiar
with screen-readers. Object navigation is not a common feature in
screen-readers so the intended audience would seldom know about it, so
for this topic, the intended audience doesn't match what the audience
would be expected to know, no matter how familiar with screen-readers in
general. I have never heard of object navigation used in other
screen-readers and I have used ASAP, Vocal-eyes, ASAW, Window-eyes, and
JAWS and I have never come across object navigation until NVDA. I am
not objecting to object navigation. I am objecting to how it is handled
in the User Guide.
Gene
Gene
Sean Randall
Mar 21, 2026, 11:48:01 AM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
I have no way of knowing how accurate this tutorial is because it's based on the desktop keyboard layout. A reasonably high number of NVDA users do so on laptops and presumably at least some of these don't have easy access to a numpad...
Also being tied to the windows 11 notepad whilst 10 is still at least nominally supported could leave users out.
I mention these things not to denigrate your efforts but to try and show it's not just a simple matter of pasting in a tutorial into the existing infrastructure.
Thanks
Sean
On 21 Mar 2026, at 14:57, Gene Asner <gsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a tutorial I wrote for someone on another list who asked about object navigation a few days ago. It was originally written in more than one message as part of a discussion and it isn't organized as a formal tutorial would be. But I believe it will be helpful to people who want to understand object navigation. I also help it will give an idea of how I envision the User Guide Object Navigation section would be rewritten.
Also being tied to the windows 11 notepad whilst 10 is still at least nominally supported could leave users out.
I mention these things not to denigrate your efforts but to try and show it's not just a simple matter of pasting in a tutorial into the existing infrastructure.
Thanks
Sean
On 21 Mar 2026, at 14:57, Gene Asner <gsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a tutorial I wrote for someone on another list who asked about object navigation a few days ago. It was originally written in more than one message as part of a discussion and it isn't organized as a formal tutorial would be. But I believe it will be helpful to people who want to understand object navigation. I also help it will give an idea of how I envision the User Guide Object Navigation section would be rewritten.
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Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 12:15:57 PM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
I don't have an opinion about whether such a tutorial should include
desktop layout and laptop layout commands. I don't use the laptop
layout. I use an external keyboard in all computers.
If someone wants to put laptop layout commands in such instruction,
fine. But the way you would teach would be exactly the same other than
that you would include two commands for every action, not just one.
Analogies are fine, if I were preparing a formal tutorial, mine would be
the arm, the hand, and fingers. I would start with someone in a Notepad
document, analogous to a finger, then have the person move up to the
next object, analogous to the hand, and so forth. The point is that you
can read about these things and see all the analogies you want, but to
understand object navigation, you have to do it. Enough should be
explained so you have a framework to understand what you are doing, but
you must do what is being discussed to understand it.
Gene
desktop layout and laptop layout commands. I don't use the laptop
layout. I use an external keyboard in all computers.
If someone wants to put laptop layout commands in such instruction,
fine. But the way you would teach would be exactly the same other than
that you would include two commands for every action, not just one.
Analogies are fine, if I were preparing a formal tutorial, mine would be
the arm, the hand, and fingers. I would start with someone in a Notepad
document, analogous to a finger, then have the person move up to the
next object, analogous to the hand, and so forth. The point is that you
can read about these things and see all the analogies you want, but to
understand object navigation, you have to do it. Enough should be
explained so you have a framework to understand what you are doing, but
you must do what is being discussed to understand it.
Gene
joseph....@gmail.com
Mar 21, 2026, 12:48:36 PM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Hi,
I agree that the object navigation section in the user guide can see some improvements (in some sense, I agree with the big picture). However, my comments are designed to offer a second look as to how user guide content is constructed and the process/mindset involved, including consideration of the background of most of the English user guide contributors.
Object navigation in screen readers: the screen readers mentioned do not present object navigation directly; they present a "linear" view of screen content as if controls are flattened into "texts and attributes". However, the very "desktop metaphor" that inspired several GUI systems and operating system user interfaces assume a hierarchical and/or non-linear organization of information. A good example is creating a folder to collect files, and arrangement of folders, and other materials on a literal or a figurative "office desk" that is collectively called a "desktop". When translated into digital forms, folders, files, peripherals, and other "office" materials become icons and controls to be clicked, dragged, opened, closed, expanded, collapsed, edited into, presented, hidden, interacted with, and other possibilities. All these controls a user would interact with is bound to whatever app the user is focused on, including the desktop window itself. It's just that a screen reader user sees a "linear" presentation of screen content because that is the work of a screen reader transforming visual information into a form that eases navigation by people who are believed to utilize more linear navigation methods (yet this assumption can be countered by people who have good sense of spatial arrangements and can picture non-linear navigation methods with little to no issues).
Further, it is also the job of the overall GUI windowing system to organize screen content. As I and others noted over the years, a GUI consists of a tree (hierarchy) of screen elements, including app elements that can be navigated using a keyboard (or not) and web elements. This GUI tree's root is the desktop (or shell) screen, below it are top-level app windows, and inside each app window is a collection of screen controls defined by the apps themselves. This tree-like organization guides GUI users to narrow or widen their focus.
Adding to the complexity of this picture is the role of accessibility API's. Accessibility API's such as UI Automation do not present screen content linearly. Rather, their "resolution" is an object or a screen control which can be placed anywhere as long as allowed by the focused app and the overall GUI windowing system. In other words, accessibility API's and their idea of "screen control" is bound to the overall idea of a GUI tree. It is just that screen readers transform this "tree" into a linear, flatter representation that effectively "hides" object hierarchy.
So what is going on with NVDA allowing keyboard-based object navigation? NVDA is effectively moving up and down the GUI tree, a different paradigm of screen content presentation and interpretation that is different than a flatter, linear presentation model. For folks used to the flatter, linear model of screen content presentation and interpretation, the idea that an object is contained inside another object is foreign. This can be framed in a variety of ways, including a new experience, a different view of the same content, or yearning for a more linear presentation.
As for improving the overall presentation of object navigation in the user guide, what you might be looking at is a collection of practical and usable scenarios to guide users to grasp this feature. This is not simple: not all users use Notepad to write text and thus not everyone can follow along when the user guide specifies Notepad as a usage scenario. Increasing the difficulty level is rapid app releases where screen control placement (and the GUI tree) can change in a matter of weeks. This, together with the need to localize the user guide content, is one reason why the user guide provides basic information, not a full-blown tutorial like what I did between 2013 and 2018.
In summary, while improving the user guide to make it more user friendly is a good call, don't expect the NVDA user guide to become a full blown tutorial or a compendium of everything NVDA.
Cheers,
Joseph
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/ef5b8c4b-42f0-34d1-4b7b-8f99b1dd2fe2%40gmail.com.
I agree that the object navigation section in the user guide can see some improvements (in some sense, I agree with the big picture). However, my comments are designed to offer a second look as to how user guide content is constructed and the process/mindset involved, including consideration of the background of most of the English user guide contributors.
Object navigation in screen readers: the screen readers mentioned do not present object navigation directly; they present a "linear" view of screen content as if controls are flattened into "texts and attributes". However, the very "desktop metaphor" that inspired several GUI systems and operating system user interfaces assume a hierarchical and/or non-linear organization of information. A good example is creating a folder to collect files, and arrangement of folders, and other materials on a literal or a figurative "office desk" that is collectively called a "desktop". When translated into digital forms, folders, files, peripherals, and other "office" materials become icons and controls to be clicked, dragged, opened, closed, expanded, collapsed, edited into, presented, hidden, interacted with, and other possibilities. All these controls a user would interact with is bound to whatever app the user is focused on, including the desktop window itself. It's just that a screen reader user sees a "linear" presentation of screen content because that is the work of a screen reader transforming visual information into a form that eases navigation by people who are believed to utilize more linear navigation methods (yet this assumption can be countered by people who have good sense of spatial arrangements and can picture non-linear navigation methods with little to no issues).
Further, it is also the job of the overall GUI windowing system to organize screen content. As I and others noted over the years, a GUI consists of a tree (hierarchy) of screen elements, including app elements that can be navigated using a keyboard (or not) and web elements. This GUI tree's root is the desktop (or shell) screen, below it are top-level app windows, and inside each app window is a collection of screen controls defined by the apps themselves. This tree-like organization guides GUI users to narrow or widen their focus.
Adding to the complexity of this picture is the role of accessibility API's. Accessibility API's such as UI Automation do not present screen content linearly. Rather, their "resolution" is an object or a screen control which can be placed anywhere as long as allowed by the focused app and the overall GUI windowing system. In other words, accessibility API's and their idea of "screen control" is bound to the overall idea of a GUI tree. It is just that screen readers transform this "tree" into a linear, flatter representation that effectively "hides" object hierarchy.
So what is going on with NVDA allowing keyboard-based object navigation? NVDA is effectively moving up and down the GUI tree, a different paradigm of screen content presentation and interpretation that is different than a flatter, linear presentation model. For folks used to the flatter, linear model of screen content presentation and interpretation, the idea that an object is contained inside another object is foreign. This can be framed in a variety of ways, including a new experience, a different view of the same content, or yearning for a more linear presentation.
As for improving the overall presentation of object navigation in the user guide, what you might be looking at is a collection of practical and usable scenarios to guide users to grasp this feature. This is not simple: not all users use Notepad to write text and thus not everyone can follow along when the user guide specifies Notepad as a usage scenario. Increasing the difficulty level is rapid app releases where screen control placement (and the GUI tree) can change in a matter of weeks. This, together with the need to localize the user guide content, is one reason why the user guide provides basic information, not a full-blown tutorial like what I did between 2013 and 2018.
In summary, while improving the user guide to make it more user friendly is a good call, don't expect the NVDA user guide to become a full blown tutorial or a compendium of everything NVDA.
Cheers,
Joseph
Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 1:39:28 PM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Evidently, you are saying that if I have three programs opened, there is
a hierarchy that can be seen where if you are in a program, you can
look, see for example a document in Notepad, then above that see the
notepad Window, then above that, the desktop window and the same for all
the opened programs. But I doubt a sighted person experiences the
hierarchy in that way. They see a screen and certain things are on the
screen in certain places but as a blind person, using object navigation,
I move through one thing at a time and see things in bits.
I have no objection to describing the hierarchy you are discussing when
discussing object navigation and if done properly, it might help people
understand what they are moving through, but again, no amount of
explanation when dealing with object navigation substitutes for the
necessity of doing.
People are flexible enough, or should be expected to be, that even if
they don't use a program, they can use it and learn what is being
taught. If you use a word processor, you can use Notepad. Any time use
of a screen-reader is taught to a new user, it isn't taught in a vacuum.
You are making theoretical arguments. I am arguing from experience.
I'm saying from experience that you can't learn object navigation
without doing things and seeing what it is like. You have to move up
from object to object to object and see what you hear and if you can
move in the object you are in.. You have to open something like the
about NVDA dialog, and experience that you can't move in the OK object
and that to see version information, you have to move to the object
above it. No amount of description or analogizing will accomplish this.
And I say, strongly because it is my strong opinion based on
experience, that if you think the object navigation part of the user
guide presents too many problems to change or that changing it as I am
suggesting is inappropriate for it, then it should clearly be explained
at the start of the section that it is not intended to teach object
navigation but is intended for those already familiar with it to see how
you use it in NVDA. It should refer those who want to learn to the
training material. As it is presented now, it is an active
discouragement for people to learn object navigation which is precisely
the opposite of what is desired.
I found the discussion of object navigation in the user guide not
understandable and I learned it by experimenting, moving in object trees
if that is the correct term and from left to right from object to object
and moving in objects if I could. But if I had tried to learn from the
manual and hadn't tried on my own, I'd still understand nothing. I may
have learned a little that helped me experiment and learn from this or
that email discussion but the section in the manual taught me nothing I
could use except some commands. If I weren't good at learning in all
sorts of ways, I would have gotten discouraged and given up.
Gene
a hierarchy that can be seen where if you are in a program, you can
look, see for example a document in Notepad, then above that see the
notepad Window, then above that, the desktop window and the same for all
the opened programs. But I doubt a sighted person experiences the
hierarchy in that way. They see a screen and certain things are on the
screen in certain places but as a blind person, using object navigation,
I move through one thing at a time and see things in bits.
I have no objection to describing the hierarchy you are discussing when
discussing object navigation and if done properly, it might help people
understand what they are moving through, but again, no amount of
explanation when dealing with object navigation substitutes for the
necessity of doing.
People are flexible enough, or should be expected to be, that even if
they don't use a program, they can use it and learn what is being
taught. If you use a word processor, you can use Notepad. Any time use
of a screen-reader is taught to a new user, it isn't taught in a vacuum.
You are making theoretical arguments. I am arguing from experience.
I'm saying from experience that you can't learn object navigation
without doing things and seeing what it is like. You have to move up
from object to object to object and see what you hear and if you can
move in the object you are in.. You have to open something like the
about NVDA dialog, and experience that you can't move in the OK object
and that to see version information, you have to move to the object
above it. No amount of description or analogizing will accomplish this.
And I say, strongly because it is my strong opinion based on
experience, that if you think the object navigation part of the user
guide presents too many problems to change or that changing it as I am
suggesting is inappropriate for it, then it should clearly be explained
at the start of the section that it is not intended to teach object
navigation but is intended for those already familiar with it to see how
you use it in NVDA. It should refer those who want to learn to the
training material. As it is presented now, it is an active
discouragement for people to learn object navigation which is precisely
the opposite of what is desired.
I found the discussion of object navigation in the user guide not
understandable and I learned it by experimenting, moving in object trees
if that is the correct term and from left to right from object to object
and moving in objects if I could. But if I had tried to learn from the
manual and hadn't tried on my own, I'd still understand nothing. I may
have learned a little that helped me experiment and learn from this or
that email discussion but the section in the manual taught me nothing I
could use except some commands. If I weren't good at learning in all
sorts of ways, I would have gotten discouraged and given up.
Gene
Sarah Alawami
Mar 21, 2026, 2:02:21 PM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Just use object mode. it is one big object left of the OK button. then clean it up via notepad like this after coppying the object to the clipboard.
nvda version 2025.3.3 (2025.3.3.54605)
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Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 2:02:44 PM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
I've been playing with object navigation on my Windows 10 machine and I
really doubt a sighted person experiences this the way a blind person
does. On the desktop, at the highest level, I can't move left and right
by object and the only thing I can have announced is desktop. But if I
move down one level, I can move through all sorts of things it is my
understanding are visually at the bottom of the screen, such as the
start button. If I move to an item that says desktop list and move down
one level, I am in the list and I can move object by object left and
right and hear all the desktop icons. but this is nothing like what I've
heard sighted descriptions of as being the visual organization of the
desktop.
I am interested in such topics and I like to discuss such things but for
a tutorial to get people to use object navigation for the intended
purpose, to get to information that can't be gotten to other ways, such
discussions may be confusing and sidetracking.
When I teach object navigation, my goal is to teach specific cases in
programs that can be generalized. For example, open the about NVDA
dialog. You are in an OK object. If you move one object up, you can
move left and right in the object you are in and see all the version
information. That's the kind of knowledge and skill I want to teach.
Gene
really doubt a sighted person experiences this the way a blind person
does. On the desktop, at the highest level, I can't move left and right
by object and the only thing I can have announced is desktop. But if I
move down one level, I can move through all sorts of things it is my
understanding are visually at the bottom of the screen, such as the
start button. If I move to an item that says desktop list and move down
one level, I am in the list and I can move object by object left and
right and hear all the desktop icons. but this is nothing like what I've
heard sighted descriptions of as being the visual organization of the
desktop.
I am interested in such topics and I like to discuss such things but for
a tutorial to get people to use object navigation for the intended
purpose, to get to information that can't be gotten to other ways, such
discussions may be confusing and sidetracking.
When I teach object navigation, my goal is to teach specific cases in
programs that can be generalized. For example, open the about NVDA
dialog. You are in an OK object. If you move one object up, you can
move left and right in the object you are in and see all the version
information. That's the kind of knowledge and skill I want to teach.
Gene
joseph....@gmail.com
Mar 21, 2026, 2:11:20 PM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Hi,
First, I think a better way to describe the "visual" aspect of object navigation is moving the eye to a specific part of a screen (as in zooming in).
As for the desktop object and the objects one level "below": the taskbar and system tray area is some of the objects of the desktop object. The "children" of the desktop object includes top-level app windows (confusing, isn't it?).
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/923d7281-475f-b5bb-0f05-09145702c1d8%40gmail.com.
First, I think a better way to describe the "visual" aspect of object navigation is moving the eye to a specific part of a screen (as in zooming in).
As for the desktop object and the objects one level "below": the taskbar and system tray area is some of the objects of the desktop object. The "children" of the desktop object includes top-level app windows (confusing, isn't it?).
Gene Asner
Mar 21, 2026, 2:12:16 PM (5 days ago) Mar 21
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Which makes my point beautifully. I get to the information by moving up one object. You get to the same information by moving left one object. So where is the object and why do both work?
You, Joseph may have knowledge that proves me wrong but I still maintain that you can get far too analytical about this. In a case like this, my attitude is teach how you do things and then the learner may experiment. Don't get too technical and analogical.
Gene
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/0fef3756-fdcb-4257-ab71-d347dce7e974%40gmail.com.
Luke Davis
Mar 22, 2026, 6:41:49 AM (5 days ago) Mar 22
to NVDA-Users Group (nvda-users@nvaccess.org)
Mister Kayne wrote:
> I am writing to seek some advice or perhaps suggest a workaround for a struggle I consistently face when trying to identify
> the specific NVDA version I am running.
The "Say Product Name and Version" add-on, can also do this. Open the NVDA menu, or any other NVDA dialog, and press NVDA+Shift+V twice. The current NVDA version will be copied to the clipboard.
> I am writing to seek some advice or perhaps suggest a workaround for a struggle I consistently face when trying to identify
> the specific NVDA version I am running.
> Currently, I navigate to the NVDA Menu > Help > About, but I find it incredibly difficult to actually capture the version
> information from that dialogue.
parent object navigation. Or any other NVDA key and numpad7. Using the standard
review cursor keys, then, will let you move through that dialog line by line. Shift+Numpad7, is the jump to top line command, and the
version number is on the second line. So press it, then Numpad9 to go down one
line, and you'll be on the line with the version. You can either read it with
numpad 4, 6, 1, and 3; or copy with NVDA+F9 to start a mark, and NVDA+F10 twice
to end the mark and copy.
Remember to press NVDA+numpad1 when you're finished, to switch back to the primary object navigation mode.
Luke
Mister Kayne
Mar 22, 2026, 7:49:14 AM (4 days ago) Mar 22
to NVDA-Users Group (nvda-users@nvaccess.org)
Dear Luke,
This is brilliant, thank you for suggesting the add-on. I downloaded it and tried it on both the NVDA About and Outlook About dialogs, and it worked like a charm.
However, there is one thing to notice. In the Outlook About dialog, you can actually copy all the details and paste them anywhere just by pressing Control + A and Control + C. In contrast, with this add-on, it only captures the version number and not the full details, such as the license type for Outlook (e.g., LTSC).
I appreciate the detailed breakdown of the object navigation commands as well; that is very helpful context for navigating these types of dialogs line by line.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org> On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2026 4:12 PM
To: NVDA-Users Group (nvda-...@nvaccess.org) <nvda-...@nvaccess.org>
Subject: Re: [NVDA] Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA version details?
This is brilliant, thank you for suggesting the add-on. I downloaded it and tried it on both the NVDA About and Outlook About dialogs, and it worked like a charm.
However, there is one thing to notice. In the Outlook About dialog, you can actually copy all the details and paste them anywhere just by pressing Control + A and Control + C. In contrast, with this add-on, it only captures the version number and not the full details, such as the license type for Outlook (e.g., LTSC).
I appreciate the detailed breakdown of the object navigation commands as well; that is very helpful context for navigating these types of dialogs line by line.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org> On Behalf Of Luke Davis
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2026 4:12 PM
To: NVDA-Users Group (nvda-...@nvaccess.org) <nvda-...@nvaccess.org>
Subject: Re: [NVDA] Request for guidance: Easiest way to copy NVDA version details?
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Christopher Chaltain
Mar 22, 2026, 12:29:27 PM (4 days ago) Mar 22
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
I don't think the following needs to be stated in this section since is what a user's guide is as opposed to a training tutorial. If it needs to be stated anywhere, it should be at the beginning of the document.
""it should clearly be explained at the start of the section that it is not intended to teach object navigation but is intended for those already familiar with it to see how you use it in NVDA. It should refer those who want to learn to the training material."
BTW, here's what Perplexity told me about the differences between a user's guide and a training tutorial.
What's the difference between a user's guide and a training tutorial?
-
Purpose
-
User’s guide: Task‑oriented; helps users solve specific, real‑world problems or complete workflows (for example, “How do I generate a monthly report?”).
-
Training tutorial: Learning‑oriented; helps users build understanding and foundational skills step by step (for example, “Learn the basics of creating reports with guided examples”).
-
When it’s used
-
User’s guide: Used on the job, often consulted as needed once users have some familiarity.
-
Training tutorial: Used while studying or onboarding, typically followed from start to finish like a lesson.
-
Structure and content
-
User’s guide: Organized around user goals and tasks, often includes multiple paths, options, and edge cases to handle real‑world variability.
-
Training tutorial: Follows a single, carefully managed path with one consistent example; minimizes surprises so the learner can focus on core concepts.
-
Assumed knowledge
--
Christopher (AKA CJ) =>÷
Chaltain at Outlook, USA
From: nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org> on behalf of Gene Asner <gsa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2026 12:39 PM
To: nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2026 12:39 PM
To: nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org>
To view this discussion visit
https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/85b374bb-76ba-b037-a89e-73a1e1985488%40gmail.com.
Ed Marquette
Mar 22, 2026, 12:50:19 PM (4 days ago) Mar 22
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
This is amazing! It is exactly opposite of my real world experience.
From: nvda-...@nvaccess.org <nvda-...@nvaccess.org> on behalf of Christopher Chaltain <chal...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2026 11:29
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2026 11:29
Mister Kayne
Mar 22, 2026, 1:44:10 PM (4 days ago) Mar 22
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Would you kindly elaborate on your experience please, we are open to learning
Steve Nutt
Mar 23, 2026, 7:57:08 AM (3 days ago) Mar 23
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Yep, it’s been a long time coming, but it’s here at last.
All the best
Steve
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Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 4PW
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/000201dcb934%2408e33c20%241aa9b460%24%40gmail.com.
Steve Nutt
Mar 23, 2026, 7:58:12 AM (3 days ago) Mar 23
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Yep, but this information is often needed and so basic, that it should have always had a copy to clipboard button.
All the best
Steve
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Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 4PW
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Mister Kayne
Mar 23, 2026, 1:08:44 PM (3 days ago) Mar 23
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Hi Steve, Joseph, and everyone,
In the meantime, I’ve found a fantastic interim solution thanks to a suggestion from the group. I installed the "Say Product Name and Version" NVDA add-on. It’s working perfectly—not just for NVDA, but for grabbing version details from Chrome, Office, and other apps as well.
For instance, I just used it to pull my WhatsApp details effortlessly: 5319275A.WhatsAppDesktop 2.2607.106.0.
I appreciate all the help and guidance on this!
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/06c201dcbabc%2427ffdd50%2477ff97f0%24%40comproom.co.uk.
Steve Nutt
Mar 24, 2026, 8:31:06 AM (2 days ago) Mar 24
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
That’s cool, I knew about that add-on, but have never tried it.
Thanks.
All the best
Steve
--
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 4PW
joseph....@gmail.com
Mar 24, 2026, 8:33:51 AM (2 days ago) Mar 24
to nvda-...@nvaccess.org
Hi,
Perhaps separating to a different topic: Luke Davis is planning to suggest inclusion of “say application name and version” add-on into NVDA in the future, and I (Joseph Lee) am about to propose a pull request to the NVDA community to fix one of the add-on’s pain points: writing version announced for File Explorer. Stay tuned.
Cheers,
Joseph
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/nvaccess.org/d/msgid/nvda-users/03cc01dcbb8a%24127ff950%24377febf0%24%40comproom.co.uk.
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