Requested ruling on ballots
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Dustin Nanna
Jul 12, 2021, 1:16:53 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
Just noticed this disclaimer after I had already submitted my ballot. It was my understanding that we were treating NOTA as a candidate (which I don't actually prefer but it is what I remember agreeing upon) can the chair please clarify?
Ken Moellman
Jul 12, 2021, 1:32:24 AM7/12/21
to lnc-business
I can't review the meeting video right now, because it had to be taken down due to the spammers who were placing inappropriate content into the meeting. We should address that issue after this ballot is complete.
As I recall, at the beginning of yesterday's meeting we decided that NOTA would be treated as another "candidate" and not as an undefeatable option. As such, choosing additional candidates beyond NOTA would be allowed because it would be just like choosing options past any other candidate.
By contrast, in a scenario where NOTA can't be eliminated, ranking past NOTA is irrelevant because a ballot would never see a person's vote for NOTA ever be eliminated.
Ken Moellman
Libertarian National Committee
Vice Chair
Jared Hall
Jul 12, 2021, 1:36:20 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
Mr Chair,
If I’m reading Mr Nanna’s screenshot correctly, if anyone chooses NOTA and someone else, the ballot is spoiled. This needs addressed now if OpaVote will toss out the rest of the ranked votes on such ballots.
Jared
Jared Hall
Region 3 Alternate
“For me, politeness is a sine qua non of civilization.”
-Robert A. Heinlein
Dustin Nanna
Jul 12, 2021, 1:43:53 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
Agreed Mr Hall but we don't have access to review the meeting or I'd already be watching. I doubt I'm the only one that did this.
Jared Hall
Jul 12, 2021, 1:46:56 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
The video was put to private. Someone has access. Plus there’s the zoom recording... I know Mr Harris has given his local recording to Ms Harlos.
Dustin Nanna
Jul 12, 2021, 2:10:12 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
Well that makes even less sense
Dustin Nanna
Jul 12, 2021, 2:11:44 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
I'm hoping maybe it was just a glitch on my end then? If the understanding is that I remember correctly and it can be ignored no big deal.
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 12, 2021, 2:30:55 AM7/12/21
to lnc-business
That screenshot is from the ballot for the meeting options that was sent before the meeting. And those instructions are how we ALWAYS treated NOTA. Those instructions are NOT on the chair ballot pursuant to what was said but what was said is absolutely incorrect. I didn't feel challenging the ruling would be effective but I did confirm that was incorrect with several parliamentarians afterwards but it is what the body decided.
But to be clear that screen shot is from a ballot on meeting locations sent BEFORE the chair meeting.
In Liberty, 
LNC Secretary | secr...@lp.org | 561.523.2250
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 12, 2021, 2:33:36 AM7/12/21
to lnc-business
So to be clear here is the screenshot from the voter email sent for the meeting locations ballot. This was sent PRIOR to the meeting and is done HOW NOTA HAS BEEN HANDLED FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS I have been on this body.
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 12, 2021, 2:36:37 AM7/12/21
to lnc-business
THIS is the screenshot for the Chair ballot which is pursuant to the instructions the body decided at the meeting which is a radical departure from how we have handled NOTA in the past and I highly suggest that the body confer with the parliamentarian and if we want to change how NOTA has always been done that we change the policy manual.
In any event I hope it is crystal clear now that the ballot are correct. Now I can look forward to hundreds of FB trolls claiming I messed up this ballot which I did not. Not this body's fault, just a part of the job .
Jared Hall
Jul 12, 2021, 2:41:05 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
Thank you, Ms Harlos! I appreciate your answers regarding both ballots. I sincerely hope that we do not end up with people claiming this is messed up, and will make all efforts to prevent (or correct) that appearance.
Dustin Nanna
Jul 12, 2021, 2:41:48 AM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
I sincerely apologize. I appear to have mixed up the ballots when reviewing old emails. Sorry y'all. Tell the trolls to troll me for not seeing the title on the email because I was browsing while tired and without my contacts in.
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 12, 2021, 2:54:16 AM7/12/21
to lnc-business
Thank you everyone and as I said not this body's fault - it is absolutely incumbent on all of you to bring potential issues. It is a job hazard we all have.
Tim Hagan
Jul 12, 2021, 5:30:41 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business
I'm continuing the NOTA discussion only because it will come up again.
The voting method done at the convention is very similar to a RCV in that each round the lowest vote-getter drops off and another round is taken until one candidate gets a majority. The main difference is that in RCV the voters mark all of their choices ahead on one ballot, while at the convention the delegates submit a ballot for each round. At a convention, delegates vote for their first choice in the first round. If their first choice is dropped off and they don't like the other choices, they can vote for NOTA on the second and subsequent rounds. Voting for a human on the first round does not take away their right to vote for NOTA in later rounds if they find the candidates left to all be unacceptable. Libertarian tradition is that the voter should not be forced to choose between unacceptable options.
I understand that OpaVote is not set up to handle the Libertarian use of NOTA. We need to preserve members' right to vote for NOTA after the choices they found acceptable have been exhausted, even if it means hand-counting some of the rounds and understanding that a NOTA vote for second or later ranking means None of the Rest.
Tim Hagan
Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee
Erin Adams
Jul 12, 2021, 5:34:18 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business
Here here Mister Hagan!
Erin Adams region 7 alternate
John Phillips
Jul 12, 2021, 5:39:48 PM7/12/21
to Lp
Good explanation Tim - and one of the reasons I favor approval voting over ranked choice.
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 12, 2021, 6:23:14 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business
There were votes for NOTA in the middle of votes which makes absolutely no sense.
And now having handcounted this ballot in my video, it is no issue to handcount.
Richard Longstreth
Jul 12, 2021, 6:26:51 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business
It makes sense if you think of it as voting for NOTA over everyone else. If consensus was there, we are done. If not, these are my other choices in ranked order.
Because we treated NOTA as a person, it makes sense to me. That is to say, in this case it makes sense, not all RCV ballots necessarily.
Richard Longstreth
At Large Representative
Libertarian National Committee
richard.l...@lp.org
931.538.9300
Sent from my Mobile Device
At Large Representative
Libertarian National Committee
richard.l...@lp.org
931.538.9300
Sent from my Mobile Device
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 12, 2021, 6:27:49 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business
PS Having done the hand counts, none of the random elimination done by OpaVote made any difference. Ms. Bilyeu would have won in any scenario and is the clear consensus candidate. RCV worked just as intended.
lnc-business
Jul 12, 2021, 6:33:26 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business, Caryn Ann Harlos
Hand-counting RCV is no big deal, especially if you have enough tellers.
I have seen NOTA within RCV be handled a few different ways.
1. NOTA can be eliminated (candidate NOTA). On-par with all of the candidates. We just did this.
2. NOTA cannot be eliminated, and is an option (optional NOTA). This is the method I prefer, personally. A voter has the CHOICE to write NOTA or not. By choosing not to, they are saying "I don't care who gets elected, if the ones I want are eliminated" if their ballot becomes exhausted. By choosing to use NOTA, the voter specifically says "I do NOT want anyone except those on my ballot" and therefore the ballot never be exhausted. RCV requires a majority of unexhausted ballots to win, so this voter choice matters.
3. NOTA cannot be eliminated, and is the last option on every ballot (mandatory NOTA). A voter has NOTA inserted at the end of their ballot no matter what. This increases the chance that NOTA will win, but also ensures a non-NOTA option must win a majority winner of all ballots cast because no ballot is ever exhausted.
As noted, I personally prefer #2 (optional NOTA) as it provides maximum flexibility to a voter.
ken
Ken Moellman
Jul 12, 2021, 6:35:47 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business, Caryn Ann Harlos
Whoa. Don't post a response from the group site. Lesson learned. Sorry.
Anyway, everything just said there was me. Sorry.
Ken Moellman
Libertarian National Committee
Vice Chair
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 12, 2021, 6:36:18 PM7/12/21
to lnc-business
Handcounting RCV is easily done on LNC with only one person as well.
John Phillips
Jul 12, 2021, 6:42:49 PM7/12/21
to Lp, Caryn Ann Harlos
NOTA makes sense if you consider it No One Else instead of none of the above.
To vote nota after your first X choices simply means you think that if those choices don't make it your opinion is that none of the rest should get it.
It is in effect no different than say our presidential selection. If after a couple rounds the only choices you consider acceptable are knocked out and you vote NOTA in subsequent rounds.
It actually makes less sense to include anyone that you think is less desirable than nota, but given the way RCV calculates and expired votes it then becomes important enough to do so.
David Sexton
Jul 12, 2021, 10:01:41 PM7/12/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org, Caryn Ann Harlos
I have an issue semantically more so than functionally. It should be “none to follow” or “none of the below” as opposed to “none of the above.” But that makes no difference in how it works in this instance, so it’s more of a minor annoyance than any legitimate gripe in my case.
David Sexton
Region 2 Alternate
On Jul 12, 2021, at 5:42 PM, John Phillips <john.p...@lp.org> wrote:
Ken Moellman
Jul 13, 2021, 5:29:29 PM7/13/21
to lnc-business, Caryn Ann Harlos
Has everyone voted for the location of the next meeting?
I did mine very early and I don't remember if I voted for NOTA. If I did, I certainly didn't want to spoil my ballot and I know the preference I would like. I hope my ballot is okay. heh.
Ken Moellman
Libertarian National Committee
Vice Chair
John Phillips
Jul 13, 2021, 5:33:34 PM7/13/21
to Lp
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 13, 2021, 7:30:35 PM7/13/21
to lnc-bu...@lp.org
You did Mr Phillips since it shows you voted.
John Phillips
Jul 13, 2021, 7:34:36 PM7/13/21
to Lp
Musta been during one of my boughts of insomnia, I dont remember voting. Hope I voted for the right place 😂
Thank you for checking Mrs Harlos. Appreciated.
Caryn Ann Harlos
Jul 13, 2021, 7:48:19 PM7/13/21
to lnc-business
We are only waiting on Jeff Hewitt to vote
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