BYLAWS EMAIL BALLOT 20230206-01 APPROVE 1/12/23 MINUTES V3

[Secretary LNC]

Move that the attached minutes from 1/12/23 be approved.   Sponsored by Committee Chair.  Ballot expires midnight Pacific time 2/13/23.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

Might be nice if I attached them.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

We meet on 9th. 

Would it be better to confirm minutes for 1-12-23 then?

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From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 12:36:50 PM
Subject: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE BYLAWS EMAIL BALLOT 20230206-01 APPROVE 1/12/23 MINUTES V3

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[Secretary LNC]

I want to save time.  Once we get in flow all final approvals will be by email.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/304304449.56154750.1675707765817.JavaMail.zimbra%40homesc.com.

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[Sylvia Arrowwood]

As to Proposal Form.  Strike "s" from "thinks".  Typo. No big deal

---

From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 12:36:50 PM
Subject: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE BYLAWS EMAIL BALLOT 20230206-01 APPROVE 1/12/23 MINUTES V3

[Paul Bracco]

I vote YES

Paul Bracco

Vice Chair - Libertarian Party of Virginia

------- Original Message -------

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WnQ4jr7qWPjNYR2q0YzDBr%3DGafVGdYM0TdjC7hVR3gHOw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

Though I do not typically vote, I am voting yes on this in case everyone else votes and we can close before the seven days expires.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/Jbr4Ixm_n3MOVDd5pzyMiH6Cs1n_wXZ1sT2x6Cd1dNeBkuXOu6lGvav_uPx_jOgE0QlGnAZZnQdMVLTWfJ9qStOcD-xKRv-x0Fi_qau-AXI%3D%40protonmail.com.

[Mike Seebeck]

Yes 

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[Rob Latham]

Point of parliamentary inquiry: May I get a cite for this?

Robert’s requires ability to see and hear all proceedings.

I looked briefly and could not readily find support for this.

Kindly,

Rob Latham

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[Secretary LNC]

Where did that come from?

Robert's requires in person meetings unless electronic specifically allowed in bylaws (and that could include phone conference).

Do you need a cite for that?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGmCBiLQEWZfEuOv1NP9f8wb4Lfs%3DQRkHDpbMNuZgzXQew%40mail.gmail.com.

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[Tom Rowlette]

Yes

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[Sylvia Arrowwood]

As to ability to see and hear versus minimun standard see 9:33

 on page 89, Types of Electronic Meetings: "Various provisions

for electronic meetings are possible, so that more than the

minimum standard of an audioconference may be required.

Thus, if the bylaws provide for meeting by videoconference

(but not merely by "teleconference" or "audioconference"),

the meeting must be conducted by a technology that allows

all participating members to see each other, as well as to

hear each other, at the same time."

You might check out 9:30 through 9:34 on Page 90 where

it speaks to minimum standards as well as ability to see and

hear.

---

From: "Rob Latham" <freeu...@gmail.com>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2023 8:42:28 PM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Re: BYLAWS EMAIL BALLOT 20230206-01 APPROVE 1/12/23 MINUTES V3

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[Frank Martin]

I vote yes.

--

Frank Martin

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[Rob Latham]

Thank you, Secretary Arrowwood. That is the information I was seeking.

The quote was from page two of the draft minutes. Here is the full quote: "Requested members do not use the chat as those who review this meeting on Youtube cannot see chat. Robert’s requires ability to see and hear all
proceedings."

All members of the BandRComm can see the chat. The chat facilitates the members of the BandRComm to see and hear the video-conferenced proceedings perhaps better than in an in-person meeting, as the chat feature facilitates side discussions that are much less disruptive to committee members who are speaking.

Public observers on YouTube are not BandRComm members. By my read, these provisions of RONR 12th do not apply to public observers. The BandRComm members are the individuals the rules for electronic meetings are intended to address. I remain open and available to be further educated on this topic.

Kindly,

Rob Latham

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[Rob Latham]

I vote yes.

Rob Latham

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[Secretary LNC]

Please feel free to raise a point of order on Thursday.

My position is that it is distracting to those wishing to give their full attention to the speaker, it is distracting to the speaker, and is effectively jumping the queue.  The question cannot be called in committees so there is no need to get points in some other way than in a true and orderly deliberative process.

I believe on principle of transparency that these debates (not mere aside or short comments by the committee) should be part of the actual meeting process.  We are not having a chat meeting.  We are having a video meeting.

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[Secretary LNC]

I further note this Bylaw:

The National Committee and all of its committees shall conduct all votes and actions in open session.... (Article 7:15)

The custom of the Party as interpreted by the LNC and a great deal of the Party  membership has been that this means not just while the meeting is happening, but absent a failure of technology, also after the fact.  Further, many members object to zoom - they simply will not use the technology.  Youtube is an alternative means.  Any member that objected to Google, I would send the video file to them.  I can anticipate the objection that the chat log can be downloaded.  Reading a chat that is not happening in real time with the conversation is not the same thing.  Further, if we are going to have "debate" in chat, I would then have to monitor to enforce rules of decorum and ask guests not to interject.  It is entirely outside of what a deliberative assembly is.  We either have chat meetings or we have video meetings.  Our rules allow email deliberations, they do not allow chat deliberations.

Of course, anything I rule is subject to appeal.  That is my position and my interpretation of our rules particularly in light of the question not being able to be called.  I do not believe it is unreasonable, and I believe it furthers the spirit of transparency.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

An additional reference is the Party's Standing Rules 1.02.7 on Electronic Meetings:

Electronic Meetings 

The term “electronic meeting” within these electronic meeting rules shall be construed to include teleconferences and videoconferences.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Frank Martin]

I've been mostly ignoring the chat during our meetings because it distracts me from the proceedings. I start reading the chats, then realize I haven't been listening to the speaker, and unlike the chat, which I can read whenever, I have missed my chance to know what they said. It usurps the speaker. The only solution, for me, is to ignore them.

If it was up to me, chats to "Everyone" would be banned in our meetings, except for something like a URL being referenced by the current speaker or during a break.

--

Frank Martin

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[Mike Seebeck]

Mr. Latham is correct.

Guests and observers are not committee members. According to Robert's own principles of interpretation regarding inclusion and exclusion of words, the citation doesn't apply to non-members, because it doesn't state that it applies to non-members.

It is also incorrect to infer that the privileges of those guests and observers to observe member communications after the fact override the rights of the members to communicate at the time by censoring/limiting of methods of member communication. The Zoom chat (so does Skype) easily allows directed messages and communication outside the app (such as email or SMS) is always an option, so such limiting is an exercise in futility before it starts. 

In the real world of meetings by Skype and Zoom, multitasking between the meeting and chat window (and other things simultaneously!) is normal and expected, and the chat is used as a productive tool to assist the meeting. It's not unreasonable to have a similar expectation or utilization here. But a full non-use is not reasonable. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGnxRe_cjbdYiSXfeZ%2BZ_K_19fc2-t5KXM6rL1BBkQhcVQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rob Latham]

Grateful for the discussion.

I wanted to address the point before there become too large of a separation between stated desires and actual practice, and any resentments that may cause.

I also note that the request not to use the chat during committee meetings is a request.

My sense is that we all have the ability to divide our attention as circumstances warrant, but there may be a learning/adjustment curve with videoconferencing platforms.

I trust that I will not be alone in the next Zoom meeting in exploring each member's ability to close the chat window so that the member may focus on the audio/video portion of the meeting (I am familiar with a WebEx platform that affords user this option).

As one who keeps tabs on the general session of the Utah Legislature, I am mindful of occasional requests by presiding officers to members to take their side conversations outside the chamber so as not to interrupt the business at hand. Many if not all of us have also seen that dynamic play out at Libertarian Party conventions and business meetings.

That said, the chat window seems similar to those kind of side conversations that are part and parcel of deliberative assemblies, whether it is passing a note or discussing pending or future business in a lowered voice.

Kindly,

Rob Latham

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

Disable chat feature as have to tend to what is

being said and going on in the actual meeting.  Is it

the members and alternates chatting and/or guests?

Just wondering.

---

From: "Rob Latham" <freeu...@gmail.com>
To: "Bylaws Committee 2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2023 3:12:38 PM

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/9de25259-57a7-4765-ac81-01632591bfd0n%40lp.org.

[Secretary LNC]

All, I have conferred with the Party Parliamentarian though of course any ruling would be mine and any appeal belongs to the Committee.

To settle the issue I intend upon making a ruling on Thursday that debate not happen in chat.  I will define what I mean by debate.  I will give detailed reasoning that I did run by Mr. Brown.  After that, any member of the Committee may appeal.  This will settle the issue.  I do not intend upon commenting further in email, but I will add this to the beginning of the agenda.

At least one committee member has stated that they find it distracting which I am treating as a point of personal privilege that requires my attention as well as my own observations.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/9de25259-57a7-4765-ac81-01632591bfd0n%40lp.org.

[Secretary LNC]

If any Committee member wishes to discuss this further (as I said, I will save it for the meeting) can you please start a new thread?  But please suggest any corrections here to the minutes concerning this issue you feel appropriate, but let's please keep this thread on topic.  A new topic can certainly be started in a new thread.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/2137080596.58685348.1675801091911.JavaMail.zimbra%40homesc.com.

[ken.mo...@lpky.org]

Sorry been slammed. Haven't had time to review. Therefore I abstain. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9W%3Dv1j22_xh7KCzF5zzQNf-e0teeA0U8eEwRC2iwq7wpEg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

Mdm Secretary, the time for this ballot has expired, can you please provide a "roll call"  accounting of the votes in this email chain for the record?

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/1717be8c-54e8-405e-b4f9-4b301911071b%40email.android.com.

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

Can I put in an email message?

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From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>

Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 1:51:28 PM

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[Secretary LNC]

Yes absolutely that is what i mean. 

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/1750455242.11722415.1676409212258.JavaMail.zimbra%40homesc.com.

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

Okay.  On its way.

VOTE AS TO APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF 1-12-23 by EMAIL

Arrowwood       Yes

Bracco              Yes

Ciesielski           NO RESPONSE

Harlos                Abstain

Latham              Yes    

Martin                Yes

Moellman           Yes

Rowlette            Yes

Rufo                   Yes

Seebeck             Yes

Yes-8

No-0

Abstain-1

No Response-1

---

From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>

Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 4:13:57 PM

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WmD94nSV1X8F5Ycbse0vEhy%3DX-a1W9SBUFB%3D0tf52CxMA%40mail.gmail.com.