Ranked Choice Voting for Officers
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Rob Latham
Jan 27, 2023, 10:44:24 PM1/27/23
to Bylaws Committee 2024
Hello all,
A draft proposal to use ranked choice voting to elect LNC Officers is attached.
This proposal differs slightly from the RCV proposals that were favored 10-0 and 7-0 by this committee in 2008 and 2010. In 2008, the RCV proposal was favored by almost 90 percent of those in a pre-convention bylaws proposal survey.
This version differs from previous proposals in three ways.
First, this proposal does not include language that vote for "None of the Above" shall survive each round. In my view, NOTA is a candidate in officer elections, but a candidate that can get defeated in any round.
Second, this proposal does not include gendered language and simply refers to "candidate" or "candidates."
Third, this proposal clarifies that "a majority of votes cast for that round" is sufficient to identify the winner. Using a phrase like "a majority vote of all the ballots cast" could be confusing, especially if there is a significant exhaustion of ballots in subsequent rounds (which could result in a smaller number of votes needed for a majority in a fourth round, as compared to the number of votes needed for a majority in the first round).
This proposal differs slightly from the RCV proposals that were favored 10-0 and 7-0 by this committee in 2008 and 2010. In 2008, the RCV proposal was favored by almost 90 percent of those in a pre-convention bylaws proposal survey.
This version differs from previous proposals in three ways.
First, this proposal does not include language that vote for "None of the Above" shall survive each round. In my view, NOTA is a candidate in officer elections, but a candidate that can get defeated in any round.
Second, this proposal does not include gendered language and simply refers to "candidate" or "candidates."
Third, this proposal clarifies that "a majority of votes cast for that round" is sufficient to identify the winner. Using a phrase like "a majority vote of all the ballots cast" could be confusing, especially if there is a significant exhaustion of ballots in subsequent rounds (which could result in a smaller number of votes needed for a majority in a fourth round, as compared to the number of votes needed for a majority in the first round).
As with the "Authorizing Electronic Balloting at Convention" proposal, I don't want this to be a formal proposal yet as I would prefer discussion and feedback on this proposal before adding it to the queue.
In liberty,
Rob Latham
In liberty,
Rob Latham
Mike Seebeck
Jan 28, 2023, 8:43:51 AM1/28/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
My concern about both of these is implementation, from a delegate perspective, a delegation chair perspective, and from a teller's perspective. This would require a large amount of training on all fronts. They also both need a proviso that they would go into effect after adjournment sine die; this is not something that should be immediately implemented, especially during a Presidential year.
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Committee members, download the Proposal Form here: https://tinyurl.com/2024Bylaws-SubmissionForm
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Secretary LNC
Jan 28, 2023, 9:12:26 AM1/28/23
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It definitely could not go into effect immediately. There is months of preparation from a Secretary's perspective and the CoC is likely spending a big chunk on scantrons for this convention. That all has to be programmed ahead of time.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGasu4SZC-EmpdstpwaY4QMSU29wCYfpAqMYX3Awf%2Be14a-gRA%40mail.gmail.com.
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
ken.mo...@lpky.org
Jan 28, 2023, 9:41:40 AM1/28/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
I would suggest that the language for electronic voting itself be generic, to permit electronic voting, provided that any such system requires a person casting a vote to be present, and the system is approved by the LNC and 3/4 (or 2/3) of the state chairs. Having flexibility AND a check and balance would be a very good thing, IMO.
Ranked choice can be tallied by hand. I've done it, it just requires N+1 tellers where N is the number of candidates. But it is easier to do electronically at the cost of trust in the results.
I think using RCV for all single-winner election except POTUS has the best chance to pass, balancing the TV time of the POTUS nomination with everything else.
Last term we also looked at swapping out approval voting with cumulative voting in multi-winner elections. This would cap the number of votes cast per ballot and also allow assignment of weight (unlike approval). I was unsure of this originally but I really like the idea after pondering it a while.
I know this thread is just for the RCV provision, which I am glad to see. But I also think these other items are directly related.
Ken
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WkHGEBP_rcp2pYY30M1GerYrRbHAJXhmay_XRFNvHioKA%40mail.gmail.com.
Rob Latham
Jan 28, 2023, 2:36:23 PM1/28/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
Thank you for the great feedback, everyone.
Agreed that this should not go into effect until the 2026 convention, and added a proviso to that effect.
Also, wondering if less is more?
RONR 12th explicitly sets forth this process -- calls it "preferential voting" -- at 45:62-69 (RONR 11th, 425-428; RONR 10th, 411-414).
Can the proposed rule essentially say: "Officer elections shall be conducted using Preferential Voting."?
I also note this sentence at RONR, p. 404 (45:62): "It can be used with respect to the election of officers only if expressly authorized in the bylaws." This proposal is to amend a rule, not a bylaw. So, should there be a separate proposal to amend the bylaw pertaining to the election of officers?
Shortened versions of a preferential voting bylaw and rule proposal, with provisos that the changes take effect at the close of the convention, are attached (will also add some related comments in a separate reply).
Rob
Also, wondering if less is more?
RONR 12th explicitly sets forth this process -- calls it "preferential voting" -- at 45:62-69 (RONR 11th, 425-428; RONR 10th, 411-414).
Can the proposed rule essentially say: "Officer elections shall be conducted using Preferential Voting."?
I also note this sentence at RONR, p. 404 (45:62): "It can be used with respect to the election of officers only if expressly authorized in the bylaws." This proposal is to amend a rule, not a bylaw. So, should there be a separate proposal to amend the bylaw pertaining to the election of officers?
Shortened versions of a preferential voting bylaw and rule proposal, with provisos that the changes take effect at the close of the convention, are attached (will also add some related comments in a separate reply).
Rob
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/6f1fc60f-cd05-4499-99a0-4d483f8602ae%40email.android.com.
Rob Latham
Jan 28, 2023, 3:53:00 PM1/28/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
Adding in a sample ballot from a previous delegation chair manual and a mock ballot for a preferential voting ballot for discussion purposes.
The "Total Ballots Cast" language on the mock ballot is highlighted because ... is it necessary? Is it just one ballot when preferential voting is used?
Are other elements of the mock ballot necessary for a preferential voting election?
Am contemplating a process that uses both electronic voting -- hence, that separate proposed bylaw to facilitate the electronic tabulation of votes (Proposal P) -- and a paper ballot for a delegate to copy/screenshot as a receipt, then to submit to the Secretary/Tellers for (post-convention?) manual tabulation and audit.
Rob
The "Total Ballots Cast" language on the mock ballot is highlighted because ... is it necessary? Is it just one ballot when preferential voting is used?
Are other elements of the mock ballot necessary for a preferential voting election?
Am contemplating a process that uses both electronic voting -- hence, that separate proposed bylaw to facilitate the electronic tabulation of votes (Proposal P) -- and a paper ballot for a delegate to copy/screenshot as a receipt, then to submit to the Secretary/Tellers for (post-convention?) manual tabulation and audit.
Rob
Secretary LNC
Jan 30, 2023, 3:15:43 PM1/30/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
So do I understand you are not formally asking this to be in the queue yet?
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
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Committee members, download the Proposal Form here: https://tinyurl.com/2024Bylaws-SubmissionForm
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Rob Latham
Jan 30, 2023, 3:31:12 PM1/30/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
May as well add it to the queue.
It may take a few months to get to it in the committee anyway.
In the interim, I continue to invite feedback on both the proposed bylaw and proposed rule.
I am particularly interested in the question of whether the proposed rule should be fleshed out more.
On one hand, RONR (45:68) says that "[w]hen this or any other system of preferential voting is to be used, the voting and the counting procedure must be precisely established in advance and should be prescribed in detail." On the other hand, RONR already outlines a fairly detailed process to administer a preferential voting election that -- as a default -- should work.
So should such a process necessarily be embodied in a rule? I lean toward an interpretation that the procedure does not have to be in a rule, but I am open to being further educated on the topic.
Rob Latham
It may take a few months to get to it in the committee anyway.
In the interim, I continue to invite feedback on both the proposed bylaw and proposed rule.
I am particularly interested in the question of whether the proposed rule should be fleshed out more.
On one hand, RONR (45:68) says that "[w]hen this or any other system of preferential voting is to be used, the voting and the counting procedure must be precisely established in advance and should be prescribed in detail." On the other hand, RONR already outlines a fairly detailed process to administer a preferential voting election that -- as a default -- should work.
So should such a process necessarily be embodied in a rule? I lean toward an interpretation that the procedure does not have to be in a rule, but I am open to being further educated on the topic.
Rob Latham
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WkC_yJCpcnrEd2jNXteMP%3D0s5DgZi5VMKsiD053SSeVLw%40mail.gmail.com.
Secretary LNC
Jan 30, 2023, 3:33:51 PM1/30/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
I lean towards it being in a rule. It is new to us and people do not realize they cannot suspend rules in RONR (with few exceptions) but they do know they can suspend convention rules.
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGm1ppC3JUcJypdsg0fai4hvdLJ7BvcOu68sD925FKG9OQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Secretary LNC
Jan 30, 2023, 3:57:07 PM1/30/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
Okay I will get that added.
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
Tom Rowlette
Jan 31, 2023, 9:54:45 PM1/31/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
My two cents is that I much prefer the first proposals language explicitly laying out the process instead of just using the word preferential and hoping that people reference RONR.
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ken.mo...@lpky.org
Jan 31, 2023, 11:19:27 PM1/31/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
I would tend to agree that it is good to be explicit when dealing with things like voting. Relying solely on RONR lets people, who think RONR doesn't apply, try to do silly things.
Ken
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CA%2B6WXgUdvBfoSm5SpSeRQTBWnWUfRcaVRc2hBjxnHE2ssui9dg%40mail.gmail.com.
Secretary LNC
Jan 31, 2023, 11:47:51 PM1/31/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
Ima gonna keep my mouth shut ;)
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Secretary LNC
Feb 1, 2023, 11:53:54 AM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
I didn't add this yet Mr. Latham as I has some suggestions and questions. See my suggestions in purple in the attached document and my questions are highlighted. I would ask for you to consider those changes and questions. Of course, I will submit as you originally drafted if that is your wish.
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
Tom Rowlette
Feb 1, 2023, 12:15:20 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
A quick internet search tells me that ranked choice voting and instant runoff voting are basically the same thing. Are there differences?
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WkPWz0RuP_Abj8EG%2BXkVWMc%3DXPKSNa4%3DTfkHCoyZSmLRA%40mail.gmail.com.
Secretary LNC
Feb 1, 2023, 12:17:06 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
Yes. RCV is a blanket term that encompasses both IRV and STV. IRV is for single winner races and STV is for multiple winner races. (At least in America)
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CA%2B6WXgV94T1_FrmyHvv7_xa5B0Ku2318euHurGCNzOwHmejzLg%40mail.gmail.com.
Secretary LNC
Feb 1, 2023, 12:22:19 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
The voting system commonly used by the LNC is Opa-Vote which has some really good explanations. A problem is that different countries confuse the terms:
https://www.opavote.com/methods/ranked-choice-voting (follow the links or the sidebar for IRV and STV)
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
Secretary LNC
Feb 1, 2023, 12:23:26 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
The key terminology is here:
People use the term ranked-choice voting in different ways. For some people, ranked-choice voting means any voting method where voters rank candidates. For these people, ranked-choice voting includes not only instant runoff voting and the single transferable vote, but also Condorcet voting and the Borda count.
For some people, ranked-choice voting means specifically instant runoff voting when electing a single candidate and the single transferable vote when electing multiple candidates (e.g., a council or committee).
We are referring to the second paragraph and I think we need to be clear on our terms.
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
Secretary LNC
Feb 1, 2023, 12:29:42 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
It looks like some of my strike throughs did not come through properly, I'll double check on my desktop, looks odd on my phone
Secretary LNC
Feb 1, 2023, 12:46:14 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
I redid it in PDF so it shows up property on phones.
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
Tom Rowlette
Feb 1, 2023, 4:00:28 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
If we simply struck part c, we could still do electronic voting, correct? Also, does c serve a critical purpose?
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Secretary LNC
Feb 1, 2023, 4:06:30 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
I'd like to strike C and hav secretary show round by round in results
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Sylvia Arrowwood
Feb 1, 2023, 7:59:08 PM2/1/23
to bylaws-committee-2024
This is part of Convention Special Rules vs Bylaws?
Is this Proposal R or will be?
From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 12:45:35 PM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Re: Ranked Choice Voting for Officers
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 12:45:35 PM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Re: Ranked Choice Voting for Officers
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WnSmU%2BsqiXuGRMnP_QgSsdLkV3jnzsn_VhyEjMHdf6sxQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Secretary LNC
Feb 2, 2023, 9:51:19 AM2/2/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
Convention Rules. I'll assign it letter soon, I was waiting to see how my suggestions were received.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/1981745473.46562887.1675299546356.JavaMail.zimbra%40homesc.com.
Secretary LNC
Feb 6, 2023, 3:56:43 PM2/6/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
This is getting assigned Proposal R and getting added to the rolling agenda.
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
Rob Latham
Feb 6, 2023, 8:21:19 PM2/6/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
Am good with striking subsection "c".
Had in mind a process in which a printed ballot would be submitted to the Secretary/Tellers, but also electronically submitted and tabulated ... for the impatient. ;-)
A substitute without subsection "c" can be submitted (in time, I'll get to it), and discussed.
Rob Latham
Had in mind a process in which a printed ballot would be submitted to the Secretary/Tellers, but also electronically submitted and tabulated ... for the impatient. ;-)
A substitute without subsection "c" can be submitted (in time, I'll get to it), and discussed.
Rob Latham
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WnyWK7fjsWgTZdO%3DYcwzMvcCREYh5aSOy%3DcpyWvzBAT0g%40mail.gmail.com.
Rob Latham
Feb 6, 2023, 8:31:36 PM2/6/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
I tend to prefer the term "ranked choice voting" over "instant runoff voting" because the method is not necessarily "instant" (and some nitpickers have seized upon that), although the ranked choice voting process tends to deliver a result quicker than a multiple-round runoff election.
The current trend seems to favor the term "ranked choice voting" for the method's use in single winner elections.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10837
And I'd like to reserve the term "single transferable vote" for proposals for multi-winner elections (like At-large Member and Judicial Committee).
Rob Latham
The current trend seems to favor the term "ranked choice voting" for the method's use in single winner elections.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10837
And I'd like to reserve the term "single transferable vote" for proposals for multi-winner elections (like At-large Member and Judicial Committee).
Rob Latham
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9W%3DymzyRz6sVZPEcx7rRgUo2o7S93uDumqvQFdTeEPu-Sw%40mail.gmail.com.
Rob Latham
Feb 6, 2023, 8:34:04 PM2/6/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
My intention is to have this ranked choice voting proposal be a convention special rule.
A proposed bylaw to allow for electronic balloting has been submitted separately (Proposal P).
Rob Latham
A proposed bylaw to allow for electronic balloting has been submitted separately (Proposal P).
Rob Latham
On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 5:59 PM Sylvia Arrowwood <sarro...@homesc.com> wrote:
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Rob Latham
Apr 20, 2023, 1:47:43 PM4/20/23
to Bylaws Committee 2024
Hello all,
In anticipation of this evening's committee meeting and town hall I have revised the ranked choice voting for officers proposal in case we get to it. See the attachments, one shows the changes from the prior version.
I have intended to incorporate most of the suggested changes in the discussion thread -- thank you for those -- although I did retain the term "ranked choice voting" over "instant runoff voting" and substituted a "which candidate" for a "who" in one spot for clarity. Of course, this is all up for discussion on this thread and at our meetings.
See you all this evening.
In liberty,
Rob Latham
In anticipation of this evening's committee meeting and town hall I have revised the ranked choice voting for officers proposal in case we get to it. See the attachments, one shows the changes from the prior version.
I have intended to incorporate most of the suggested changes in the discussion thread -- thank you for those -- although I did retain the term "ranked choice voting" over "instant runoff voting" and substituted a "which candidate" for a "who" in one spot for clarity. Of course, this is all up for discussion on this thread and at our meetings.
See you all this evening.
In liberty,
Rob Latham
Secretary LNC
Apr 20, 2023, 1:50:08 PM4/20/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
What is the difference between these three documents and why is one in Word and the other two in PDF?
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
--
Committee members, download the Proposal Form here: https://tinyurl.com/2024Bylaws-SubmissionForm
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Rob Latham
Apr 20, 2023, 1:53:41 PM4/20/23
to bylaws-com...@lp.org
The PDFs are for ease of reading on a smartphone (someone had mentioned that practice earlier).
The Word version is there for ease of use for committee members who may wish to copy from or edit the form.
The Word version is there for ease of use for committee members who may wish to copy from or edit the form.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WnjAUXgEBq_FvMnGscVEnYzh5j0gdVnjTioDR0FbNEFAA%40mail.gmail.com.
Secretary LNC
Apr 20, 2023, 2:10:13 PM4/20/23
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Are all three identical?
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Rob Latham
Apr 20, 2023, 2:14:08 PM4/20/23
to Bylaws Committee 2024, secr...@lp.org
Two are identical, but for the format:
Bylaws Proposal Form - Ranked Choice Voting for Officers 3.docx
and
Bylaws Proposal Form - Ranked Choice Voting for Officers 3.pdf
The other file shows the differences between the second and third versions:
Bylaws Proposal Form - Ranked Choice Voting for Officers 2 and 3 compared.pdf
Bylaws Proposal Form - Ranked Choice Voting for Officers 3.docx
and
Bylaws Proposal Form - Ranked Choice Voting for Officers 3.pdf
The other file shows the differences between the second and third versions:
Bylaws Proposal Form - Ranked Choice Voting for Officers 2 and 3 compared.pdf
Secretary LNC
Apr 20, 2023, 5:13:26 PM4/20/23
to Rob Latham, Bylaws Committee 2024
Was this Proposal R?
___________________________________________________
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
Sylvia Arrowwood
Apr 20, 2023, 5:19:39 PM4/20/23
to bylaws-committee-2024, Rob Latham
Found Agenda. Knew it would turn up minute I hit send asking
for it.
From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "Rob Latham" <freeu...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Bylaws Committee 2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 5:12:49 PM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Re: Ranked Choice Voting for Officers
To: "Rob Latham" <freeu...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Bylaws Committee 2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 5:12:49 PM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Re: Ranked Choice Voting for Officers
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9Wk94JWmqhiGYJ5wm2avvftoV1_3pk2-8tsxj0Xomf2WeQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Rob Latham
Apr 20, 2023, 6:00:04 PM4/20/23
to Bylaws Committee 2024, secr...@lp.org, Bylaws Committee 2024
Yes, my understanding is that this is Proposal R.
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