latest versions of Moellman proposals

[Chuck Moulton]

Forwarding these to the list at Ken's request (I am one of the few people who has not gone to the dark side with Google proprietary email).

In liberty,

Dr. Chuck Moulton

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: Ken Moellman <ken.mo...@lpky.org>
Date: September 4, 2023 at 8:42:23 PM CDT
To: Chuck Moulton <ch...@moulton.org>
Subject: Please forward to the list



Chuck,

I'm losing my mind trying to get these over to the list. We're still being blocked by Google on the state email server, apparently...

Can you please forward these to the list?  These are the latest versions with modifications made based on feedback received from multiple people.

Updated proposal for transparency and ethics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vsdzjMHli_4QZ3VIgFS_PQRa29Gu2cgOTQj2U6XJ2l0/edit 

Updated proposal for leadership structure change: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19-K05NdkbZQrT0ndkGln8rgivwLT-PHv1Omfvkl0fZA/edit 

--

Ken C. Moellman, Jr.

Executive Director

Libertarian Party of Kentucky

[Secretary LNC]

I'll get them uploaded and updated.

I'll just note that a great deal of the first one are either special rules or standing rules which can arguably be suspended and do not belong in bylaws.  That is always a tricky and ambiguous area and the only way to avoid that is to put in a provision that they cannot be suspended. 

I would really suggest Mr. Moellman speak to Mr. Brown or Mr. Jacobs for guidance.  I disagree with Mr. Jacobs a bit on this topic, he has a much more expansive view of what can be suspended but an expansive view is what Mr. Moellman needs to consider.

--
Committee members, download the Proposal Form here: https://tinyurl.com/2024Bylaws-SubmissionForm
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[Mike Seebeck]

A 50-member appellate board is beyond insane.

That's an immediate NO from me.

This streamlines nothing.

--

[TRowlette]

I'm also opposed to this, but for different reasons than Mike.  I'm also less opposed to this than I was before I looked at all those other non-profit organizations.  Basically, I don't think that this would be a disaster, but I don't think it would be an improvement over the status quo either.

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

As to transparency and ethics, best as Rules. standing, special.

Should be separate from bylaws. IMO

2:23 Standing Rules (2) can be adopted or changed upon the same conditions

as any act of the society.  A standing rule remains in effect until rescinded

or amended, but if it has its application only within the context of a meeting, it can be

suspended at any particular session (although not for future sessions) by a majority

vote.

NOW Convention rules do differ 59:37 NOT APPLICABLE HERE.

2:21 Rules of order - whether contained in the parliamentary authority

or adopted as special rules of order - can be suspended by a two-thirds vote 

as explained in 25 (with exceptions there specified). Rules clearly identifiable

as in the nature of rules of order that are placed within the bylaws can (with exceptions 

specified in 25 ) also be suspended by a 2/3 vote; but, except for such rules and for 

clauses that provide for their own suspension, as stated above, rules in the

bylaws cannot be suspended.

---

From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 10:01:43 PM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE latest versions of Moellman proposals

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WnvapGCx5MoL%2B6GU1jhttjthK%3D0eygYNNqGJH8b3VgXAQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

I've already stated and will reserve debate for meeting I'm absolutely opposed to such a radical restructuring and think it solves nothing.  I've softened to a less radical restructuring that solves things.

I concur completely with Ms. Arrow wood on the first proposal.  I can't say every provision does but my skim on my phone (my main computer is in shop and I hope to have back today or tomorrow) showed many of that nature which is improper bulk to our bylaws.

I know some states have similar.  Lots of state bylaws have issues.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/1293659100.28072698.1693888368464.JavaMail.zimbra%40homesc.com.

[Tom Rowlette]

Questions for CAH or Arrowwood:

If the transparency and ethics proposal should be moved over to the rules instead of the bylaws, should the rest of article 9 be scooted over too?  If not, what makes it different from the rest of Article 9?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9Wk0Ftm%2Bygr3f66fybZjehdjPYvxEAhryaBAAKcg6mubUQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

I need to look at it more carefully, I have been reading on a phone and I got bad news on my main computer.  It be dead.  I am working now on a small aging laptop.

And when I say "rules" - and I think Mr. Arrowwood means so as well, I don't mean the rules in the Bylaws which are convention rules, but in the LNC rules, which is the Policy Manual.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CA%2B6WXgVKnhg8%2B4mgBdsTfjf48R00m1f0fVqy6AEj87iS5ZqhVA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

It doesn't do that.  If it's rules, the LNC can suspend for limited uses.

Not every ill can be cured by adding to bylaws.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 11:56 AM Ken Moellman <ken.mo...@lpky.org> wrote:

Placing this in the Policy Manual would be up to the LNC, and could be changed or overridden by the LNC.  The intent is to not allow that.  I am working on amended language accordingly. 

---

Ken C. Moellman, Jr.

Executive Director

Libertarian Party of Kentucky

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WnWDP3xhdJqKujy%2BE-J%3DMOnK8qSd72PEreRFq3Y2GU4PA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

I am super confused about what is your current proposal for restructuring, Mr. Moellman is it:

https://tinyurl.com/BylawsW

OR

https://tinyurl.com/BylawsX

Can you please clarify?  They are both on agenda with X being the last version of what you sent.  

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Tom Rowlette]

Isn't the difference between them that W also impacts who selects the bylaws and platform committees, while X doesn't?  It was my impression that we were going to debate both.

For what it's worth I prefer X to W,  though I'm willing to have my mind changed on that.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9Wm1y_MV7%2BRbTxjqmHRy%3D8OEXr6S-syRse%2B%2BnuL0%2B-r_rQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

I haven't yet examined them for differences.  I have to trust the sponsor to let me know what is most current because it's super confusing when there are multiple versions.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CA%2B6WXgVTG76RSN4Owrf4MOOLhvVpqko9J-EuY5RuhMasYuFS_w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

Yep its getting through and I gotcha, I will get the agenda corrected.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 3:41 PM <ken.mo...@lpky.org> wrote:

I don't think these are actually getting through to the list. 

But if they are, the latest revision for lnc restructuring should be the only proposal from me.  The second version should be withdrawn.

There should be a total of 2 things I have proposed; the one for restructure, and one for the ethics. This is all I plan to propose for this committee in this term. 

Regarding the latest revision of the LNC restructure proposal, i have accounted for multiple persons' feedback. Additionally, there is no change to bylaws or platform committees anymore. If there's merit to that then it can be separately proposed by someone else. This now only deals with LNC and its subcommittees, and eliminating the would-be unnecessary judicial committee, keeping it simpler and germane to one topic. There are additional chamges based on things that need to happen to facilitate that change.  

Ken

[Secretary LNC]

Okay looking at V, the "ethics" one which I will call it for short.

The first portion about disbursements is a standing rule.  It can be suspended by the LNC is any specific circumstance and what if it is violated?  What is the penalty?  A JC appeal?

The part about committee members not being compensated, whelp there goes Andy Jacobs getting to be a paid petitioner.  And "use position" is fantasticaly vague and ripe for abuse.  I got invited to Anarchon because I am national Secretary.  Should I have to pay to do all that myself?  Or need Party approval?  This is just very authoritarian.  We are already unpaid volunteers.  So no radio show hosts potentially as they might get additional audience by virtue of their position.  

With the way Party resources are defined maintaining a list would be a job in and of itself.  And that is a rule.  As is the part about in-kind donations, and is a solution in need of a problem.  To answer Tom's question, no that has not been a problem.

Open records is unnecessary.  RONR already provides for members to inspect records. 47:36. and the procedure for doing so is a rule.

The only part I liked (and it belongs in policy manual but would be okay in bylaws, but would seem to be just "floating" there) is the part defining Party resources.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

And as I stated elsewhere, I am going to be moving any restructuring proposal (include the one I am going to be offering) to be near the end of our term in what we are considering.  I will work on mine though tonight or tomorrow to have it out there in case postponement is defeated.

(I actually am going to move to postpone indefinitely - that functionally kills it for the time being, but any committee member can re-move (re-motion) it later)

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

What they expect and what is required are two different things.  I guess Larry Sharpe should never have been on LNC.  He had a show.  I am sorry but that is a ridiculous ask of volunteers.  We want influencers.  This would be terrible for the Party.  It is not like we have hundreds of qualified people vying for these positions.  And you of all people know how this can be abused to target people.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 4:54 PM <ken.mo...@lpky.org> wrote:

Knowing what the party actually owns would be good. 

Open records increase trust. Having a defined procedure avoids abuse by either a requestor or the requested. 

Not everything needs to be reactionary. 

Don't use a title to benefit yourself or those in your direct circle. Be paid, or have a voice. This was always supposed to be the way. That's why staff was banned from acting in certain ways, too.  It's a good rule. Nepotism and back-room dealings are quashed. Can't vote to put money in your own pocket - even if innocent, it looks horrible. 

And this suspend-able issue has me concerned. Our members expect that if they write something into the bylaws that the party WILL do it for the next 2 years. It's not that they're making a suggestion, they're demanding it. 

Ken

[Secretary LNC]

Oh and people voluntarily giving to Angela's patreon so she can be chair full time.  Nope.  Only rich people get to be chair now,  Great!

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

I just thought of three more unintended consequences.  I will save it for meeting, it is coming up likely next meeting in a few days.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

And we can't afford that.  I'll save further debate until meeting.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 5:19 PM <ken.mo...@lpky.org> wrote:

There's a better way to pay the chair. You make them hired employees.....

[Secretary LNC]

Oh and I put in full time hours.  Just saying.

[Secretary LNC]

That's simply not going to happen.  AFAIC let's see that happen (and I am not sure I am even in favor of that) then try to muzzle the ox.  

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 7:25 PM <ken.mo...@lpky.org> wrote:

The proposal for lnc structure change infers but does not require the lnc to pay the EC. Thats the point. The ideal is paid full time leadership paid specifically to do specific duties. The rate and the limits of those duties are balanced against ability to pay, etc, as determined by the lnc, made up of state parties with a vested interest in the lnc because they are the lnc. 

[Secretary LNC]

Mr. Rowlette I think you already suggested what I was going to do for LNC restructuring - that is eliminate regionals and shrink LNC.  I am good with that proposal.  Some members wanted us to consider a directorship model.  If someone wants to propose that as alternative/minority report that might be an option (and fair warning, I think if we propose this and people are on the ball there might be a substitute motion from the floor with a directorship model).

One question though, I have you down with X-2 and X-3 but looking at those now they look identical, is there something I am missing?

https://tinyurl.com/BylawsX-2 and https://tinyurl.com/BylawsX-3

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Tom Rowlette]

They're identical.  Maybe I copied and pasted twice?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9Wm1HMGAVOg7pOLMcFy%3DEp0N5Br-khVYnAxg0He5YAFhqA%40mail.gmail.com.