WiFi issues on an Amazon Fire tablet
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Matt Lawrence
Jul 15, 2023, 5:56:10 PM7/15/23
to dis...@lists.lopsa.org
I bought an Amazon Fire 10 (11th generation) tablet a while ago. It has
been working well except for the fact that when I try to use it at a
neighborhood bar the wifi connection flaps. Connects for a few seconds
then drops for several seconds, rinse & repeat ad nauseum. Signal
strength is fine, my phone, which is also an Android device, works
fine. Other people aren't having any trouble. The tablet connects fine
with every other wifi network I've tried.
It does connect well enough that Google Docs works adequately, it just
sometimes takes several seconds. This means it is connecting to the
Internet.
I don't know anything about the access point at the bar, I'm guess it is
from the cable company (Spectrum). There are separate SSIDs for 2.4GHz
& 5GHz and I see the same behavior on both.
I have not been able to find a version of wireshark for Android, so I
don't have a good way of capturing packets for inspection.
Also, I have sideloaded the Google Play Store, which works well.
Otherwise I would have gotten rid of this tablet immediately.
Any ideas?
-- Matt
been working well except for the fact that when I try to use it at a
neighborhood bar the wifi connection flaps. Connects for a few seconds
then drops for several seconds, rinse & repeat ad nauseum. Signal
strength is fine, my phone, which is also an Android device, works
fine. Other people aren't having any trouble. The tablet connects fine
with every other wifi network I've tried.
It does connect well enough that Google Docs works adequately, it just
sometimes takes several seconds. This means it is connecting to the
Internet.
I don't know anything about the access point at the bar, I'm guess it is
from the cable company (Spectrum). There are separate SSIDs for 2.4GHz
& 5GHz and I see the same behavior on both.
I have not been able to find a version of wireshark for Android, so I
don't have a good way of capturing packets for inspection.
Also, I have sideloaded the Google Play Store, which works well.
Otherwise I would have gotten rid of this tablet immediately.
Any ideas?
-- Matt
Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
Jul 18, 2023, 9:23:02 AM7/18/23
to Matt Lawrence, dis...@lists.lopsa.org
Years ago, I worked at a wifi company. Before the existence of "wifi", as in the actual WiFi consortium, there were merely the RFC's, and other standards. If you can remember all the way back to 2000 or so, 802.11a/b/g standards existed, but they were insufficient.
In those days, if you bought cisco gear, you could count on it working with cisco, only. Intel would work with intel, and so on. They consistently all failed to reliably communicate with each other. The WiFi consortium introduced a cross-company compatibility
test, where in order to put the "WiFi" logo onto your product, you needed to demonstrate compatibility with a whole slew of other companies' chipsets. After this, for the most part* wifi has become reliable.
* "For the most part." Occasionally, since the only thing making WiFi work in the present day is ad-hoc testing, rather than predictable, deterministric standards, you'll encounter a chipset that doesn't work with another chipset. The symptoms are exactly what
you've described. Two devices are fine talking to lots of other devices, but not ok talking with each other. Sometimes this can be fixed by applying a firmware update to one or the other device. Usually the solution is to swap one of the devices, like connect
a usb wifi adapter to the tablet, or something crappy like that.
From: ma...@technoronin.com <ma...@technoronin.com> on behalf of Matt Lawrence <ma...@technoronin.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2023 5:56 PM
To: dis...@lists.lopsa.org <dis...@lists.lopsa.org>
Subject: [lopsa-discuss] WiFi issues on an Amazon Fire tablet
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2023 5:56 PM
To: dis...@lists.lopsa.org <dis...@lists.lopsa.org>
Subject: [lopsa-discuss] WiFi issues on an Amazon Fire tablet
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Matt Lawrence
Jul 19, 2023, 8:51:31 PM7/19/23
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While you make an interesting argument. The issue is not that my tablet won't connect, it's a matter of the connection flapping. It connects well enough for Google Docs to work, it just won't stay connected.
-- Matt
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James R Grinter
Jul 20, 2023, 2:33:38 AM7/20/23
to dis...@lopsa.org
I’ve got a couple of Ubiquity access points at home, via a previous employer, and some of my devices are very sensitive to the versions running on them. One, my electricity meter’s in-home display, is currently behaving exactly as you describe and I don’t really have any insight as to why it disconnects so frequently.
Now, they seem to be infamous for - uh - mixed QC on their releases. But my understanding is that it’s software from their wifi chipset vendors as much as their own software which is involved in handling and maintaining the connections.
Which is to say I doubt there’s much you can diagnose, or certainly fix, without the ability to update one end or the other’s firmware. But also, I wouldn’t be surprised if you looked around the bar walls and ceilings and saw a Ubiquity access point: they’re quite distinctive with their shape and blue LED circle, and a common choice for small businesses despite their somewhat erratic reliability.
James.
Now, they seem to be infamous for - uh - mixed QC on their releases. But my understanding is that it’s software from their wifi chipset vendors as much as their own software which is involved in handling and maintaining the connections.
Which is to say I doubt there’s much you can diagnose, or certainly fix, without the ability to update one end or the other’s firmware. But also, I wouldn’t be surprised if you looked around the bar walls and ceilings and saw a Ubiquity access point: they’re quite distinctive with their shape and blue LED circle, and a common choice for small businesses despite their somewhat erratic reliability.
James.
Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
Jul 21, 2023, 3:02:49 PM7/21/23
to Matt Lawrence, dis...@lopsa.org
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing we would have counted as a connection failure in the compatibility test. Everything that you've described is exactly typical, very strongly and distinctively smells like, two different manufacturers' chipsets (or drivers)
just have some kind of compatibility problem with each other. Your best chance at workaround is firmware update, driver update, try forcing a different mode (like force A or G or N, instead of whatever it's autonegotiating, or force a change of speed, like
144Mbit instead of 300, enable or disable roaming, or beam forming, etc.
From: ma...@technoronin.com <ma...@technoronin.com> on behalf of Matt Lawrence <ma...@technoronin.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2023 8:51 PM
To: dis...@lopsa.org <dis...@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] WiFi issues on an Amazon Fire tablet
To: dis...@lopsa.org <dis...@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] WiFi issues on an Amazon Fire tablet
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/a/lopsa.org/d/msgid/discuss/308871c9-1497-17f1-7135-6a059bec5268%40technoronin.com.
Matt Lawrence
Jul 21, 2023, 10:52:08 PM7/21/23
to dis...@lopsa.org
Okay. I have updated Android to the latest available version.
It's an Amazon device, so it has been customized by Amazon. I
don't think there is much else I can do to the tablet, but if
anyone has specific ideas, I can try. I have tried connecting to
both the 2.4GHz and 5GHz interfaces that I suspect are on the same
device.
I don't know what kind of access point is being used, I suspect
it is from the cable company and that it is in the storeroom.
This is a small neighborhood bar, they don't need a mesh setup.
Or maybe it is above the cash register, I'll have to look next
time I'm there.
It still bothers me that it will connect for several seconds at a time and then drop. I would expect an incompatibility to manifest as just not connecting. Instead, the Google Docs app seems to work adequately, so it is connecting all the way through the NAT gateway to the Internet and actually passing a number of packets and handshakes.
This is the only place I've had any issues with my tablet. It even works fine at Marriott properties, where I always have to talk to their tech support to get my phone connected.
-- Matt
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lopsa.org/d/msgid/discuss/BL0PR04MB4564C93A37B2EBB47A3B9E50A33FA%40BL0PR04MB4564.namprd04.prod.outlook.com.
Rackow, Gene
Jul 24, 2023, 9:31:01 AM7/24/23
to Matt Lawrence, dis...@lopsa.org
I've run into a similar problem some time ago.
I was trying out the TMobile 5G home internet.
Everything was working great for a couple months, then the home systems started changing IP addresses a couple times a minute. The DHCP lease was very short lived and couldn't be renewed in time.
I tried power cycle of everything, actually replaced the TMobile 5G box, etc.
I spent hours on the phone with their tech support.
There were claims of work being done on the towers, but even having them for the connection to another tower made no difference.
Ultimately returned the TMobile unit and went back to my old carrier....
This really wasn't a problem if all you were doing was browsing the web, but when you are needing to make a VPN or SSH connection to a work system...it was impossible to maintain a connection.
--Gene
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I was trying out the TMobile 5G home internet.
Everything was working great for a couple months, then the home systems started changing IP addresses a couple times a minute. The DHCP lease was very short lived and couldn't be renewed in time.
I tried power cycle of everything, actually replaced the TMobile 5G box, etc.
I spent hours on the phone with their tech support.
There were claims of work being done on the towers, but even having them for the connection to another tower made no difference.
Ultimately returned the TMobile unit and went back to my old carrier....
This really wasn't a problem if all you were doing was browsing the web, but when you are needing to make a VPN or SSH connection to a work system...it was impossible to maintain a connection.
--Gene
________________________________________
From: ma...@technoronin.com <ma...@technoronin.com> on behalf of Matt Lawrence <ma...@technoronin.com>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 9:52 PM
To: dis...@lopsa.org
Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] WiFi issues on an Amazon Fire tablet
Okay. I have updated Android to the latest available version. It's an Amazon device, so it has been customized by Amazon. I don't think there is much else I can do to the tablet, but if anyone has specific ideas, I can try. I have tried connecting to both the 2.4GHz and 5GHz interfaces that I suspect are on the same device.
I don't know what kind of access point is being used, I suspect it is from the cable company and that it is in the storeroom. This is a small neighborhood bar, they don't need a mesh setup. Or maybe it is above the cash register, I'll have to look next time I'm there.
It still bothers me that it will connect for several seconds at a time and then drop. I would expect an incompatibility to manifest as just not connecting. Instead, the Google Docs app seems to work adequately, so it is connecting all the way through the NAT gateway to the Internet and actually passing a number of packets and handshakes.
This is the only place I've had any issues with my tablet. It even works fine at Marriott properties, where I always have to talk to their tech support to get my phone connected.
-- Matt
On 7/21/23 14:02, 'Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)' via LOPSA Discussion wrote:
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing we would have counted as a connection failure in the compatibility test. Everything that you've described is exactly typical, very strongly and distinctively smells like, two different manufacturers' chipsets (or drivers) just have some kind of compatibility problem with each other. Your best chance at workaround is firmware update, driver update, try forcing a different mode (like force A or G or N, instead of whatever it's autonegotiating, or force a change of speed, like 144Mbit instead of 300, enable or disable roaming, or beam forming, etc.
________________________________
From: ma...@technoronin.com<mailto:ma...@technoronin.com> <ma...@technoronin.com><mailto:ma...@technoronin.com> on behalf of Matt Lawrence <ma...@technoronin.com><mailto:ma...@technoronin.com>
I don't know what kind of access point is being used, I suspect it is from the cable company and that it is in the storeroom. This is a small neighborhood bar, they don't need a mesh setup. Or maybe it is above the cash register, I'll have to look next time I'm there.
It still bothers me that it will connect for several seconds at a time and then drop. I would expect an incompatibility to manifest as just not connecting. Instead, the Google Docs app seems to work adequately, so it is connecting all the way through the NAT gateway to the Internet and actually passing a number of packets and handshakes.
This is the only place I've had any issues with my tablet. It even works fine at Marriott properties, where I always have to talk to their tech support to get my phone connected.
-- Matt
On 7/21/23 14:02, 'Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)' via LOPSA Discussion wrote:
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing we would have counted as a connection failure in the compatibility test. Everything that you've described is exactly typical, very strongly and distinctively smells like, two different manufacturers' chipsets (or drivers) just have some kind of compatibility problem with each other. Your best chance at workaround is firmware update, driver update, try forcing a different mode (like force A or G or N, instead of whatever it's autonegotiating, or force a change of speed, like 144Mbit instead of 300, enable or disable roaming, or beam forming, etc.
________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2023 8:51 PM
To: dis...@lopsa.org<mailto:dis...@lopsa.org> <dis...@lopsa.org><mailto:dis...@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-discuss] WiFi issues on an Amazon Fire tablet
While you make an interesting argument. The issue is not that my tablet won't connect, it's a matter of the connection flapping. It connects well enough for Google Docs to work, it just won't stay connected.
-- Matt
On 7/18/23 08:22, 'Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)' via LOPSA Discussion wrote:
Years ago, I worked at a wifi company. Before the existence of "wifi", as in the actual WiFi consortium, there were merely the RFC's, and other standards. If you can remember all the way back to 2000 or so, 802.11a/b/g standards existed, but they were insufficient. In those days, if you bought cisco gear, you could count on it working with cisco, only. Intel would work with intel, and so on. They consistently all failed to reliably communicate with each other. The WiFi consortium introduced a cross-company compatibility test, where in order to put the "WiFi" logo onto your product, you needed to demonstrate compatibility with a whole slew of other companies' chipsets. After this, for the most part* wifi has become reliable.
* "For the most part." Occasionally, since the only thing making WiFi work in the present day is ad-hoc testing, rather than predictable, deterministric standards, you'll encounter a chipset that doesn't work with another chipset. The symptoms are exactly what you've described. Two devices are fine talking to lots of other devices, but not ok talking with each other. Sometimes this can be fixed by applying a firmware update to one or the other device. Usually the solution is to swap one of the devices, like connect a usb wifi adapter to the tablet, or something crappy like that.
________________________________
From: ma...@technoronin.com<mailto:ma...@technoronin.com> <ma...@technoronin.com><mailto:ma...@technoronin.com> on behalf of Matt Lawrence <ma...@technoronin.com><mailto:ma...@technoronin.com>
While you make an interesting argument. The issue is not that my tablet won't connect, it's a matter of the connection flapping. It connects well enough for Google Docs to work, it just won't stay connected.
-- Matt
On 7/18/23 08:22, 'Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)' via LOPSA Discussion wrote:
Years ago, I worked at a wifi company. Before the existence of "wifi", as in the actual WiFi consortium, there were merely the RFC's, and other standards. If you can remember all the way back to 2000 or so, 802.11a/b/g standards existed, but they were insufficient. In those days, if you bought cisco gear, you could count on it working with cisco, only. Intel would work with intel, and so on. They consistently all failed to reliably communicate with each other. The WiFi consortium introduced a cross-company compatibility test, where in order to put the "WiFi" logo onto your product, you needed to demonstrate compatibility with a whole slew of other companies' chipsets. After this, for the most part* wifi has become reliable.
* "For the most part." Occasionally, since the only thing making WiFi work in the present day is ad-hoc testing, rather than predictable, deterministric standards, you'll encounter a chipset that doesn't work with another chipset. The symptoms are exactly what you've described. Two devices are fine talking to lots of other devices, but not ok talking with each other. Sometimes this can be fixed by applying a firmware update to one or the other device. Usually the solution is to swap one of the devices, like connect a usb wifi adapter to the tablet, or something crappy like that.
________________________________
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2023 5:56 PM
To: dis...@lists.lopsa.org<mailto:dis...@lists.lopsa.org> <dis...@lists.lopsa.org><mailto:dis...@lists.lopsa.org>
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lopsa.org/d/msgid/discuss/3bd30564-f408-5f98-b167-5bf7e4b91805%40technoronin.com.
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Matt Lawrence
Jul 26, 2023, 12:16:46 AM7/26/23
to dis...@lopsa.org
DHCP lease was a good idea. Unfortunately, the lease time is 7 days. I
used a tool on my tablet to check it. The flapping also increased in
speed when I ran the tool, probably because it trying to connect out and
get more data, like the eternal IP address.
It looks like the issue may be based on the amount of traffic and it may
drop the connection after a certain amount has been transferred. It's
just a theory. Like I said the Google Docs app works fine, but I'm
writing fairly small documents.
Thanks for something else for me to check.
-- Matt
used a tool on my tablet to check it. The flapping also increased in
speed when I ran the tool, probably because it trying to connect out and
get more data, like the eternal IP address.
It looks like the issue may be based on the amount of traffic and it may
drop the connection after a certain amount has been transferred. It's
just a theory. Like I said the Google Docs app works fine, but I'm
writing fairly small documents.
Thanks for something else for me to check.
-- Matt
Shane Harvey
Dec 13, 2023, 2:34:25 PM12/13/23
to Matt Lawrence, dis...@lopsa.org
You are probably rate limited at the bar. If i owned the bar i would set up my guest wifi like that.
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Matt Lawrence
Dec 13, 2023, 2:51:45 PM12/13/23
to dis...@lopsa.org
Turns out that after they did a reset of their access point, it works fine.
-- Matt
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lopsa.org/d/msgid/discuss/CAN2TnxM5-6NuOh6EiL4%3DgdP5N%2Bm1td2_Kc7ZbTms2aakj8xqMA%40mail.gmail.com.
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