Altium Importer REPORTER for logging
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Stefan Weber
May 4, 2024, 4:47:30 AM5/4/24
to KiCad Developers
Hi,
I recently started a discussion with @Jon Evans in my MR https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/merge_requests/1935 regarding the visibility of Altium importer warning & errors for not yet supported schematic and layout features.
Since commit https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/commit/83be5ba63d82e237b8944ee6ee7c639215b14027 the Kicad Altium Importer does no longer shows warning & errors for not yet supported schematic and layout features in release builds.
As Jon mentioned this was implemented to get rid of those annoying warnings which pop-up every time you use an Altium library which contains a not yet supported schematic and layout features. This I absolutely understand.
I also do not expect that importing data from other EDA tools will be 100% accurate. But as the importer already knows it's limits I personally would like to have the possibility to get those warnings and errors back when I am importing an Altium schematic or layout.
Jon mentioned:
"I would be fine with adding some new way to show these optionally, in a less obtrusive way."
"We try to avoid settings wherever possible. It is best to come up with a solution that can be enabled for everyone, meaning that people who want the information can get it in a way that does not slow down people who don't want the information.
One option would be to create a "post-import report" that can optionally be launched from an infobar notification, for example."
"One pretty simple option would be an advanced_config flag that changes the behavior of the WXLOG_REPORTER to use logging calls that are present in release builds"
I am curious what's the opinion of others.
Best regards,
Stefan
Jeff Young
May 4, 2024, 4:53:31 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
Presumably we can tell the difference (in the code) between a schematic or layout import and a library import?
It would seem to me like a schematic or layout import should show the warnings (even without an advanced setting or the like).
Personally I also think the library importer should show the warnings the very first time. Maybe we could do that by setting a plugin option (m_warningsShown or something) after reading the library? I think those are saved per-row in the lib table, but I’m not 100% sure.
Cheers,
Jeff.
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Jon Evans
May 4, 2024, 8:04:59 AM5/4/24
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Jeff,
In both cases I disagree that the current warning system should
appear. The warning system we have today is really not that helpful,
and I don't want to bring it back the same way for boards or for
libraries.
The advanced_config option was something Seth and I discussed as a
simple stopgap for V8 if we are looking at something better for V9.
A more helpful warning system:
- Would not use pop-up dialogs that block the UI to let people know
that any warnings exist (instead would show up in the info bar, the
same way our previous-format-version warning does)
- Would have a more rich system of logging, so that people always get
context about what part of their file had an issue
I think if we want to show this info, we need a new kind of REPORTER
that can capture context rather than just a string, and a "post-import
report" dialog launched from the infobar.
The library loader can keep track of these on a per-library basis so
that the infobar can be shown in the symbol/footprint editor after
launch.
-Jon
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/2533D70F-B95B-4548-97C7-335F4F9944CF%40rokeby.ie.
In both cases I disagree that the current warning system should
appear. The warning system we have today is really not that helpful,
and I don't want to bring it back the same way for boards or for
libraries.
The advanced_config option was something Seth and I discussed as a
simple stopgap for V8 if we are looking at something better for V9.
A more helpful warning system:
- Would not use pop-up dialogs that block the UI to let people know
that any warnings exist (instead would show up in the info bar, the
same way our previous-format-version warning does)
- Would have a more rich system of logging, so that people always get
context about what part of their file had an issue
I think if we want to show this info, we need a new kind of REPORTER
that can capture context rather than just a string, and a "post-import
report" dialog launched from the infobar.
The library loader can keep track of these on a per-library basis so
that the infobar can be shown in the symbol/footprint editor after
launch.
-Jon
Jeff Young
May 4, 2024, 9:24:17 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
We do report context info (at least line number and offset) in some of the other importers.
I agree that the system could be improved.
And I agree that we have to do something about the library importing.
The only place we disagree is what to do in the meantime for schematics and boards.
Cheers,
Jeff.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CA%2BqGbCDQhM7pm0-c14hFm8qf-YqpmEq5L8NynBoxCv3V1XLkRg%40mail.gmail.com.
I agree that the system could be improved.
And I agree that we have to do something about the library importing.
The only place we disagree is what to do in the meantime for schematics and boards.
Cheers,
Jeff.
Jon Evans
May 4, 2024, 9:29:44 AM5/4/24
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> The only place we disagree is what to do in the meantime for schematics and boards.
Using wxLog to pop up dialogs reporting that KiCad does not support
some feature of some other EDA tool is inappropriate in my opinion.
It goes against the KiCad guideline of not showing nag dialogs. I
don't think boards/schematics are any different from libraries in this
regard.
Jeff Young
May 4, 2024, 9:52:33 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
I don’t agree. A nag dialog would be something that told you we don’t have an editing feature that Altium supports, not that we can’t express the same end result as we found in the Altium file.
There are certainly border-line cases. Complaining about not being able to import a datum dimension is a bit closer to an editing feature. But if it’s something like pad-stacks, then I’m going to have to make changes somewhere to get the design right. So I’d rather know about those.
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There are certainly border-line cases. Complaining about not being able to import a datum dimension is a bit closer to an editing feature. But if it’s something like pad-stacks, then I’m going to have to make changes somewhere to get the design right. So I’d rather know about those.
Seth Hillbrand
May 4, 2024, 10:06:11 AM5/4/24
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For board imports, I agree with the desire to know what is missing. The current report is not helpful in this regard because it tells you that something is missing without enough context to do anything about it.
For library imports, this needs something completely different. Especially as we generally try to load libraries in the background. A lot of work (as you know) went into making the load process as short as possible. This is broken when we need to then find/close the pop up nag dialog. For example, footprint libraries are loaded in multiple places (Footprint editor, footprint chooser, symbol chooser, footprint viewer). If I'm trying to place a new resistor in the schematic editor, I don't want to deal with the dialog box about a missing padstack in an MCU.
Maybe we could attach the information to the library element itself, so that when it is used, you can view compatibility information.
Seth
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Jon Evans
May 4, 2024, 10:20:20 AM5/4/24
to KiCad Developers
I agree that the information should be exposed somewhere. But I think interrupting the load process with a dialog is a nag. It gets in the way of using KiCad as an efficient way to view files designed in other programs.
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Jon Evans
May 4, 2024, 10:24:07 AM5/4/24
to KiCad Developers
Following up, I think it's important to understand the places the importer is used for my team (and probably others who use a mix of tools)
The importers are rarely used as a "one shot" tool to convert a design permanently from a different CAD tool to KiCad. Instead, we use the importers persistently. For example, we directly add non-KiCad libraries to the table (which triggers parsing them in many different places, as Seth mentioned). But, we also use KiCad as a viewer for non-KiCad board and schematic files. We open these files over and over again, and having that open process blocked by a dialog is a real interruption.
I would expect dialogs to only appear when a serious error has happened that is not recoverable. Information that KiCad does not support a certain feature from an external file is not even an error, let alone a serious one.
-Jon
Seth Hillbrand
May 4, 2024, 10:31:00 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
For importing boards, we could
1) Add a checkbox at the bottom of the import non-KiCad dialog that says "Show import errors"
and/or
2) Move the error reporter to a docked AUI window so that it doesn't interrupt the workflow
Seth
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Jon Evans
May 4, 2024, 10:34:06 AM5/4/24
to KiCad Developers
I think a variant of (2) where we move the messages to a custom dialog and show an info at with a button to open the dialog would be faster (adding new AUI is going to be more complex IMO)
(1) makes sense to me for 8.x
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Seth Hillbrand
May 4, 2024, 10:36:08 AM5/4/24
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I like it. Works for me.
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Wayne Stambaugh
May 4, 2024, 10:36:25 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
Until we have a more elegant solution such as Jon's info bar suggestion,
we could do something similar for libraries by using an option in the
library table entry.
On 5/4/24 10:30 AM, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> For importing boards, we could
>
> 1) Add a checkbox at the bottom of the import non-KiCad dialog that says
> "Show import errors"
>
> and/or
>
> 2) Move the error reporter to a docked AUI window so that it doesn't
> interrupt the workflow
>
> Seth
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>.
we could do something similar for libraries by using an option in the
library table entry.
On 5/4/24 10:30 AM, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> For importing boards, we could
>
> 1) Add a checkbox at the bottom of the import non-KiCad dialog that says
> "Show import errors"
>
> and/or
>
> 2) Move the error reporter to a docked AUI window so that it doesn't
> interrupt the workflow
>
> Seth
> KiCad Services Corporation Logo
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> Seth Hillbrand
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> <mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> The only place we disagree is what to do in the meantime
> for schematics and boards.
> >
> > Using wxLog to pop up dialogs reporting that KiCad does
> not support
> > some feature of some other EDA tool is inappropriate in
> my opinion.
> > It goes against the KiCad guideline of not showing nag
> dialogs. I
> > don't think boards/schematics are any different from
> libraries in this
> > regard.
> >
> > On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 9:24 AM Jeff Young <je...@rokeby.ie
> <mailto:je...@rokeby.ie>> wrote:
> >>
> >> We do report context info (at least line number and
> offset) in some of the other importers.
> >>
> >> I agree that the system could be improved.
> >> And I agree that we have to do something about the
> library importing.
> >>
> >> The only place we disagree is what to do in the meantime
> for schematics and boards.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Jeff.
> >>
> >>> On 4 May 2024, at 13:04, Jon Evans <j...@craftyjon.com
> >
> >> The only place we disagree is what to do in the meantime
> for schematics and boards.
> >
> > Using wxLog to pop up dialogs reporting that KiCad does
> not support
> > some feature of some other EDA tool is inappropriate in
> my opinion.
> > It goes against the KiCad guideline of not showing nag
> dialogs. I
> > don't think boards/schematics are any different from
> libraries in this
> > regard.
> >
> > On Sat, May 4, 2024 at 9:24 AM Jeff Young <je...@rokeby.ie
> <mailto:je...@rokeby.ie>> wrote:
> >>
> >> We do report context info (at least line number and
> offset) in some of the other importers.
> >>
> >> I agree that the system could be improved.
> >> And I agree that we have to do something about the
> library importing.
> >>
> >> The only place we disagree is what to do in the meantime
> for schematics and boards.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Jeff.
> >>
> >>> On 4 May 2024, at 13:04, Jon Evans <j...@craftyjon.com
> Developers <dev...@kicad.org <mailto:dev...@kicad.org>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> I recently started a discussion with @Jon Evans in my
> MR https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/merge_requests/1935
> <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/merge_requests/1935>
> regarding the visibility of Altium importer warning & errors
> for not yet supported schematic and layout features.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since commit
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/commit/83be5ba63d82e237b8944ee6ee7c639215b14027 <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/commit/83be5ba63d82e237b8944ee6ee7c639215b14027> the Kicad Altium Importer does no longer shows warning & errors for not yet supported schematic and layout features in release builds.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> I recently started a discussion with @Jon Evans in my
> MR https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/merge_requests/1935
> <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/merge_requests/1935>
> regarding the visibility of Altium importer warning & errors
> for not yet supported schematic and layout features.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since commit
> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/f49a2c0b-5a6f-4ed9-a40d-20f2a385d0een%40kicad.org <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/f49a2c0b-5a6f-4ed9-a40d-20f2a385d0een%40kicad.org>.
> >>>>
> >>>>
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Jon Evans
May 4, 2024, 10:47:15 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
I'll work on the quick version as a start
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Jeff Young
May 4, 2024, 10:48:55 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
> I'll work on the quick version as a start
:thumbsup:
Stefan Weber
May 4, 2024, 11:59:09 AM5/4/24
to dev...@kicad.org
thank you all for this fruitful discussion
Am 04.05.24 um 16:48 schrieb Jeff Young:
Am 04.05.24 um 16:48 schrieb Jeff Young:
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