multichannel design decisions
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Rafał Pietrak
Jun 15, 2025, 1:40:51 AMJun 15
to KiCad Developers
Hi all,
For some time now I'm using-and-testing the multichannel tool. During
that time I've stumbled upon cases where zone mapping of identical
copied of sub-schematics fail to find isomorphism complaining of
"topological missmatch". But those sub-shcematics ARE identical.
So I was wondering, it it would be prudent and along the design roadmap
if the "rules zones" based on subschematics were indicated as sub-sheet
marker/flag available just like "exclude from simulation" or "exclude
from board" are. An additional flag would be something like: "pin
rule-zone to schematic" (or "schematic also defines role zone") and
replace the "generate rule zone" step of defining area to replicate.
Currently this becomes possible, as an option to indicate one part
withing sub-sheet, that will "govern the placement and orientation" of
replicated zones.
I still haven't worked out how exactly and where in the kicad code the
"Generate zone" maps the identity of parts involved in the bug/failure
resulting in topological mismatches I've experienced during replication.
I'd appreciate a helping hand in understanding the code.
Regards,
-R
For some time now I'm using-and-testing the multichannel tool. During
that time I've stumbled upon cases where zone mapping of identical
copied of sub-schematics fail to find isomorphism complaining of
"topological missmatch". But those sub-shcematics ARE identical.
So I was wondering, it it would be prudent and along the design roadmap
if the "rules zones" based on subschematics were indicated as sub-sheet
marker/flag available just like "exclude from simulation" or "exclude
from board" are. An additional flag would be something like: "pin
rule-zone to schematic" (or "schematic also defines role zone") and
replace the "generate rule zone" step of defining area to replicate.
Currently this becomes possible, as an option to indicate one part
withing sub-sheet, that will "govern the placement and orientation" of
replicated zones.
I still haven't worked out how exactly and where in the kicad code the
"Generate zone" maps the identity of parts involved in the bug/failure
resulting in topological mismatches I've experienced during replication.
I'd appreciate a helping hand in understanding the code.
Regards,
-R
Seth Hillbrand
Jun 16, 2025, 1:22:38 PMJun 16
to dev...@kicad.org
Hi Rafał,
If there is a case where sub sheets can't find their matches in the multichannel tool, this sounds like it might be a bug. Can you post a minimal example to a bug report?
It is not quite clear to me what additional benefit comes from specialized markers for 'exclude from multi-channel'. When creating the multi-channel design, you can already pick and choose which rules areas and/or subsheets are included. However, if you could post a video of your process along with what you are trying to achieve to the bug tracker, this would be helpful in either fixing the tool or fixing the documentation
Seth
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Rafał Pietrak
Jun 16, 2025, 5:01:39 PMJun 16
to 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers
Hi,
https://www.electric-sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv.
It's 16MB and I'll leave it there for a couple of days. Regrettably
gitlab refused my registration, so I cannot use proper channel to hand
it over to you. I don't mind handing over the project files, too. Just
tell me it'll help.
no audio there, so pls follow the mouse moves.
I didn't mean "exclude from multi=channel", quite the opposite. My
intention was to suggest "here multi-channel starts" marker at
schematic/sub-schematic level. This comes from the fact, that currently
implemented generation of zones based on sub-schematic creates areas,
which reflect "currently" (that is "random") placement of components -
because it's done before placement replication action. So in my work I
had to re-generate zones after every attempt to replicate their
configuration. Having a single flag at schematic level fixes that.
-R
On 16.06.2025 19:22, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> Hi Rafał,
>
> If there is a case where sub sheets can't find their matches in the
> multichannel tool, this sounds like it might be a bug. Can you post a
> minimal example to a bug report?
>
> It is not quite clear to me what additional benefit comes from
> specialized markers for 'exclude from multi-channel'. When creating the
> multi-channel design, you can already pick and choose which rules areas
> and/or subsheets are included. However, if you could post a video of
> your process along with what you are trying to achieve to the bug
> tracker, this would be helpful in either fixing the tool or fixing the
> documentation
>
> Seth
>
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>.
> b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-sheep.eu>.
> xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
https://www.electric-sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv.
It's 16MB and I'll leave it there for a couple of days. Regrettably
gitlab refused my registration, so I cannot use proper channel to hand
it over to you. I don't mind handing over the project files, too. Just
tell me it'll help.
no audio there, so pls follow the mouse moves.
I didn't mean "exclude from multi=channel", quite the opposite. My
intention was to suggest "here multi-channel starts" marker at
schematic/sub-schematic level. This comes from the fact, that currently
implemented generation of zones based on sub-schematic creates areas,
which reflect "currently" (that is "random") placement of components -
because it's done before placement replication action. So in my work I
had to re-generate zones after every attempt to replicate their
configuration. Having a single flag at schematic level fixes that.
-R
On 16.06.2025 19:22, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> Hi Rafał,
>
> If there is a case where sub sheets can't find their matches in the
> multichannel tool, this sounds like it might be a bug. Can you post a
> minimal example to a bug report?
>
> It is not quite clear to me what additional benefit comes from
> specialized markers for 'exclude from multi-channel'. When creating the
> multi-channel design, you can already pick and choose which rules areas
> and/or subsheets are included. However, if you could post a video of
> your process along with what you are trying to achieve to the bug
> tracker, this would be helpful in either fixing the tool or fixing the
> documentation
>
> Seth
>
> KiCad Services Corporation Logo
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> Seth Hillbrand
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/
> d/msgid/devlist/b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> sheep.eu <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/
> d/msgid/devlist/b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-sheep.eu>.
>
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> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Seth Hillbrand
Jun 16, 2025, 5:21:30 PMJun 16
to dev...@kicad.org
Thanks but without a GitLab report we will be unable to address this. Please consider that if everyone submitted an issue this way, the team would be unable to handle any of them.
You may find end users willing to help you with understanding how to use multi channel tool better at the forum (https://forum.kicad.info) if you do not wish to register with GitLab.
Seth
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Rafał Pietrak
Jun 17, 2025, 3:27:59 AMJun 17
to 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers
I'd like to get there, I tried. But gitlab escalated "confirmations" of
my identity beyond all acceptable limits. I'm not going to waste more of
my time for that.
So this is not my choice anymore. Irrespective of "benefits" I will not
get dragged into organizations I despise. In this case it's the gitlab.
-R
On 16.06.2025 23:21, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> Thanks but without a GitLab report we will be unable to address this.
> Please consider that if everyone submitted an issue this way, the team
> would be unable to handle any of them.
>
> You may find end users willing to help you with understanding how to use
> multi channel tool better at the forum (https://forum.kicad.info
> <https://forum.kicad.info>) if you do not wish to register with GitLab.
>
> Seth
>
>
> Hi,
>
> https://www.electric-
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <https://
> www.electric-sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv>.
> > www.kipro-pcb.com <http://www.kipro-pcb.com> <https://www.kipro-
> pcb.com/ <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/>> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 10:40 PM Rafał Pietrak <solver@electric-
> sheep.eu <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>
> > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> > <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>.
> > d/msgid/devlist/b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> > sheep.eu <http://sheep.eu> <https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/
> msgid/devlist/>
> > b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-sheep.eu
> <http://40electric-sheep.eu>>.
> > <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org
> > msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/a/ <https://
> groups.google.com/a/>
> > kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP- <http://
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP->
> > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>?
> sheep.eu <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/
> devlist/931a9545-bdca-4c3c-bfb3-d67ad1d84b70%40electric-sheep.eu>.
> groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-
> odPUoQgkgPtshRVe_J1h49msuiV5TEOrrizS9mSfFBig%40mail.gmail.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
my identity beyond all acceptable limits. I'm not going to waste more of
my time for that.
So this is not my choice anymore. Irrespective of "benefits" I will not
get dragged into organizations I despise. In this case it's the gitlab.
-R
On 16.06.2025 23:21, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> Thanks but without a GitLab report we will be unable to address this.
> Please consider that if everyone submitted an issue this way, the team
> would be unable to handle any of them.
>
> You may find end users willing to help you with understanding how to use
> multi channel tool better at the forum (https://forum.kicad.info
>
> Seth
>
> KiCad Services Corporation Logo
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
>
>
>
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 2:01 PM Rafał Pietrak <sol...@electric-sheep.eu
> <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> https://www.electric-
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <https://
> www.electric-sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv>.
> pcb.com/ <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/>> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 10:40 PM Rafał Pietrak <solver@electric-
> sheep.eu <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>
> > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/>
> > d/msgid/devlist/b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> > sheep.eu <http://sheep.eu> <https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/
> msgid/devlist/>
> > b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-sheep.eu
> <http://40electric-sheep.eu>>.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "KiCad Developers" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to devlist+u...@kicad.org
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> > --
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> send
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> > <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/>
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> > msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/a/ <https://
> groups.google.com/a/>
> > kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP- <http://
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP->
> > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>?
> > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>
> --
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> d/msgid/devlist/931a9545-bdca-4c3c-bfb3-d67ad1d84b70%40electric-
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/
> sheep.eu <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/
> devlist/931a9545-bdca-4c3c-bfb3-d67ad1d84b70%40electric-sheep.eu>.
>
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> msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-
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> odPUoQgkgPtshRVe_J1h49msuiV5TEOrrizS9mSfFBig%40mail.gmail.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Kuba Sunderland-Ober
Jun 17, 2025, 7:04:01 AMJun 17
to dev...@kicad.org
>
But gitlab escalated "confirmations" of my identity beyond all acceptable limits.
Could you explain exactly what problem you're facing, perhaps with some video of what you're running into? Have you checked your email's spam folder?
If you have disabled cookies for gitlab, then it won't keep you logged in. That's the case with the vast majority of websites that have logins. The old days of having a session ID in the URL are over, since it makes for easy leaks of session cookies via URL sharing.
I have just tried registering several additional accounts with gitlab, then removed them, and it worked as expected.
Does your email domain have DMARC and SPF set up? Does the email server accept connections via TLS (SMTPS)? Those would be the top problems I think.
Cheers, Kuba
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to devlist+u...@kicad.org.
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Rafał Pietrak
Jun 17, 2025, 8:16:46 AMJun 17
to dev...@kicad.org
Hi,
On 17.06.2025 13:03, 'Kuba Sunderland-Ober' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> > But gitlab escalated "confirmations" of my identity beyond all
> acceptable limits.
>
> Could you explain exactly what problem you're facing, perhaps with some
> video of what you're running into? Have you checked your email's spam
> folder?
gitlab asked me for my phone number, didn't accepted "cooked" phone
number. Some guys here kindly directed me to "one shot anonymous"
sms/phone services, but gitlab was "clever" to decline them, too. All
this happened like February last year, and with an echo of my attempts
here on the list.
Then again. about at that time I've successfuly registered @github, and
supposedly gitlab could accept credencials from there. But that didn't
work for me either. I'm sorry I don't have time for such hide and seek
games with idiots@gitlab (my apology, but I'm really angry for the time
they cost me).
>
> If you have disabled cookies for gitlab, then it won't keep you logged
> in. That's the case with the vast majority of websites that have logins.
> The old days of having a session ID in the URL are over, since it makes
> for easy leaks of session cookies via URL sharing.
>
> I have just tried registering several additional accounts with gitlab,
> then removed them, and it worked as expected.
I'd bet, they already have enough of your scent (footprints) around the
net (like google account, etc) to be OK with short variants of your new
profiles @gitlab. Apparently they don't have mine, so need some
additional hooks. They won't have it.
>
> Does your email domain have DMARC and SPF set up? Does the email server
> accept connections via TLS (SMTPS)? Those would be the top problems I think.
It should be fairly OK. This list (i.e. google) accepts it just fine.
-R
> >
> > https://www.electric- <https://www.electric->
> > sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <http://
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv> <https://
> > www.electric-
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <http://
> > > www.kipro-pcb.com <http://www.kipro-pcb.com> <http://
> <https://www.kipro->
> > pcb.com/ <http://pcb.com/> <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/ <https://
> www.kipro-pcb.com/>>> in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>>
> > > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> sheep.eu> <mailto:solver@electric- <mailto:solver@electric->
> > > <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>
> > <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%25252Bun...@kicad.org>>>.
> > kicad.org/ <http://kicad.org/> <https://groups.google.com/a/
> sheep.eu>> <https://groups.google.com/a/ <https://groups.google.com/a/>
> > kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/ <http://kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/>
> <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/ <https://
> groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/>
> > msgid/devlist/>
> > > b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> sheep.eu <http://40electric-sheep.eu>
> > <http://40electric-sheep.eu <http://40electric-sheep.eu>>>.
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>
> > > <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org
> > kicad.org/d/ <http://kicad.org/d/> <https://groups.google.com/a/
> groups.google.com/a/ <https://groups.google.com/a/> <https://
> > groups.google.com/a/ <http://groups.google.com/a/>>
> > > kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> <http://kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-> <http://
> kicad.org/d/msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/>
> > devlist/931a9545-bdca-4c3c-bfb3-d67ad1d84b70%40electric-
> sheep.eu <http://40electric-sheep.eu>>.
> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <https://
> > groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG- <http://
> groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG->
> > odPUoQgkgPtshRVe_J1h49msuiV5TEOrrizS9mSfFBig%40mail.gmail.com
> sheep.eu <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/
> devlist/5bef921d-9ac8-4a71-8324-73daf22f2368%40electric-sheep.eu>.
> SXB81tNSzJS7x%3D9cW9mew%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAG4N6cq_YLS0h14okDU0NHUy2Trf-
> SXB81tNSzJS7x%3D9cW9mew%40mail.gmail.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
On 17.06.2025 13:03, 'Kuba Sunderland-Ober' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> > But gitlab escalated "confirmations" of my identity beyond all
> acceptable limits.
>
> Could you explain exactly what problem you're facing, perhaps with some
> video of what you're running into? Have you checked your email's spam
> folder?
number. Some guys here kindly directed me to "one shot anonymous"
sms/phone services, but gitlab was "clever" to decline them, too. All
this happened like February last year, and with an echo of my attempts
here on the list.
Then again. about at that time I've successfuly registered @github, and
supposedly gitlab could accept credencials from there. But that didn't
work for me either. I'm sorry I don't have time for such hide and seek
games with idiots@gitlab (my apology, but I'm really angry for the time
they cost me).
>
> If you have disabled cookies for gitlab, then it won't keep you logged
> in. That's the case with the vast majority of websites that have logins.
> The old days of having a session ID in the URL are over, since it makes
> for easy leaks of session cookies via URL sharing.
>
> I have just tried registering several additional accounts with gitlab,
> then removed them, and it worked as expected.
net (like google account, etc) to be OK with short variants of your new
profiles @gitlab. Apparently they don't have mine, so need some
additional hooks. They won't have it.
>
> Does your email domain have DMARC and SPF set up? Does the email server
> accept connections via TLS (SMTPS)? Those would be the top problems I think.
-R
> > www.kipro-pcb.com <http://www.kipro-pcb.com> <https://www.kipro-
> pcb.com/ <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/>> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 2:01 PM Rafał Pietrak <solver@electric-
> pcb.com/ <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/>> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> sheep.eu <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>
> > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> sheep.eu>>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> sheep.eu>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > https://www.electric- <https://www.electric->
> > sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <http://
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv> <https://
> > www.electric-
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <http://
> <https://www.kipro->
> > pcb.com/ <http://pcb.com/> <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/ <https://
> www.kipro-pcb.com/>>> in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> > > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 10:40 PM Rafał Pietrak
> <solver@electric-
> > sheep.eu <http://sheep.eu> <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu
> > > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 10:40 PM Rafał Pietrak
> <solver@electric-
> <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>>
> > > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> sheep.eu> <mailto:solver@electric- <mailto:solver@electric->
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>
> > <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%25252Bun...@kicad.org>>>.
> > > To view this discussion visit https://
> groups.google.com/a/ <https://groups.google.com/a/>
> > kicad.org/ <http://kicad.org/> <https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/>>
> > > d/msgid/devlist/b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-
> bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> > > sheep.eu <http://sheep.eu> <http://sheep.eu <http://
> > > d/msgid/devlist/b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-
> bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> sheep.eu>> <https://groups.google.com/a/ <https://groups.google.com/a/>
> > kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/ <http://kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/>
> <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/ <https://
> groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/>
> > msgid/devlist/>
> > > b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> sheep.eu <http://40electric-sheep.eu>
> > <http://40electric-sheep.eu <http://40electric-sheep.eu>>>.
> > >
> > > --
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> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>
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> > > <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>
> > <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>>.
> > > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> <https://groups.google.com/a/>
> > <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>>.
> > > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> > kicad.org/d/ <http://kicad.org/d/> <https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/>>
> > > msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> > > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>> <https://
> > > msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> > > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> groups.google.com/a/ <https://groups.google.com/a/> <https://
> > groups.google.com/a/ <http://groups.google.com/a/>>
> > > kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-
> <http://kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP-> <http://
> > kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP- <http://
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP->>
> > > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>?
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-osU9g9xNdF8Eqjb-gP->>
> > > xDDGSbfWsBYUcnTj82BV5AugA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> > > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
> > --
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> > <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/>
> > d/msgid/devlist/931a9545-bdca-4c3c-bfb3-d67ad1d84b70%40electric-
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/>
> kicad.org/d/msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/>
> > devlist/931a9545-bdca-4c3c-bfb3-d67ad1d84b70%40electric-
> sheep.eu <http://40electric-sheep.eu>>.
> >
> > --
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> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>
> > <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/>
> > msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-
> > odPUoQgkgPtshRVe_J1h49msuiV5TEOrrizS9mSfFBig%40mail.gmail.com
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > an email to devlist+u...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>
> > <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/>
> > msgid/devlist/CAFdeG-
> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <https://
> > groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG- <http://
> groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAFdeG->
> > odPUoQgkgPtshRVe_J1h49msuiV5TEOrrizS9mSfFBig%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>?
> > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
> --
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> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/
> d/msgid/devlist/5bef921d-9ac8-4a71-8324-73daf22f2368%40electric-
> > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
> --
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> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/
> sheep.eu <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/
> devlist/5bef921d-9ac8-4a71-8324-73daf22f2368%40electric-sheep.eu>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org>.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/
> msgid/devlist/CAG4N6cq_YLS0h14okDU0NHUy2Trf-
> --
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> SXB81tNSzJS7x%3D9cW9mew%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/d/msgid/devlist/CAG4N6cq_YLS0h14okDU0NHUy2Trf-
> SXB81tNSzJS7x%3D9cW9mew%40mail.gmail.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Rafał Pietrak
Jun 21, 2025, 3:39:44 PMJun 21
to 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers
Seth (and/or everybody to whom this may concern),
Today I was weighting pros and cons for me to follow up here with more
comments on Multichannel tool. I'm sorry I cannot put them through
gitlab, but the other alternative - silence - doesn't look much better,
so here are my observations.
1. Since Sunday 15th, the "topology mismatch" does not occur on my pcb.
I tried to locate the code update that did that, but failed; still I
cannot believe that my miniscule changes to the board did it. That's a
puzzle.
2. Although I dont have the "topological mismatch" now, the layout
replication tool masses up with component placements. see video
https://www.electric-sheep.eu/6TP2ChMP5cFyS6934FLI3fzo6EkmdOmIYkLlRKllo.mkv,
(4MB) where replication zones are highlighted before replication, and
after replication you can see that components from OUTSIDE of their
definition were moved around - component mapping has a bug.
2.1 I think the mapping should use the "instance" uuid (as present in
schematic files) for components-in-zone identification; Unfortunately
I'm not able to find myself around the source code to suggest a patch (I
don't understand the code).
3. It looks to me, that "rule zones" have two distinct (and ultimately,
contradictory) purposes. One being exactly what the name states for; the
other is "replication". This is because:
3.1 rule zone set areas on pcb, where "exceptions" would apply. In those
regions, the declared "exceptions" will apply to every component one
"puts there" - by chance or by design.
3.2. "replication" (almost by definition) will not have predefined
"areas on pcb", since "areas" on pcb where "replication touches" will be
"defined" during replication based on "replication rules" (like pinned
footprint). In my use cases I use "generate zone" tool using
sub-schematic as bases for "zones". This lead up to multiple zones being
generated on the same sub-schematic (despite ticking the "replace"
option). This a nuisance.
4. in consequence "replication" and "rule" zones already have (sort of)
different configuration options. (like "anchor footprint" ain't useful
for "prevent vias" in rule zone).
My conclusion is that "rule zones" should be more separated at user
interface (event if they share the back-end engine). Those are the
reasons I've earlier opted to put an "option tick" at schematic level to
indicate, that "this sub-sheet will be replicatable".
Ultimately, for the purpose of layout replication, it will be useful to
have "grid/matrix replication" - with explicit grid dimensions and
row/col counts; "circular replication" - with center of rotation, number
of instances and angular step; or more exotic replication path
definitions. Things useless in configuration of true "rule zones". Then
again, since there is an "anchor footprint", for SMD components, the
replication should "flip" replication (on back-side) whenever the
"anchor" for currently replication "zone" is flipped with respect to
anchor. (so replication will propagate to backside, instead of resetting
replication to the initial size the anchor is located at).
I hope those observations will be useful to somebody. It's a shame I
cannot normally put them into the gitlab. (And don't understand the
sources enough to contribute actual code).
Regards,
-R
On 16.06.2025 23:21, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> Thanks but without a GitLab report we will be unable to address this.
> Please consider that if everyone submitted an issue this way, the team
> would be unable to handle any of them.
>
> You may find end users willing to help you with understanding how to use
> multi channel tool better at the forum (https://forum.kicad.info
> <https://forum.kicad.info>) if you do not wish to register with GitLab.
>
> Seth
>
> pcb.com/ <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/>> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 10:40 PM Rafał Pietrak <solver@electric-
> > <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>.
> > <mailto:devlist+u...@kicad.org
> <mailto:devlist%2Bunsu...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> groups.google.com/a/>
> sheep.eu <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/d/msgid/
> devlist/931a9545-bdca-4c3c-bfb3-d67ad1d84b70%40electric-sheep.eu>.
Today I was weighting pros and cons for me to follow up here with more
comments on Multichannel tool. I'm sorry I cannot put them through
gitlab, but the other alternative - silence - doesn't look much better,
so here are my observations.
1. Since Sunday 15th, the "topology mismatch" does not occur on my pcb.
I tried to locate the code update that did that, but failed; still I
cannot believe that my miniscule changes to the board did it. That's a
puzzle.
2. Although I dont have the "topological mismatch" now, the layout
replication tool masses up with component placements. see video
https://www.electric-sheep.eu/6TP2ChMP5cFyS6934FLI3fzo6EkmdOmIYkLlRKllo.mkv,
(4MB) where replication zones are highlighted before replication, and
after replication you can see that components from OUTSIDE of their
definition were moved around - component mapping has a bug.
2.1 I think the mapping should use the "instance" uuid (as present in
schematic files) for components-in-zone identification; Unfortunately
I'm not able to find myself around the source code to suggest a patch (I
don't understand the code).
3. It looks to me, that "rule zones" have two distinct (and ultimately,
contradictory) purposes. One being exactly what the name states for; the
other is "replication". This is because:
3.1 rule zone set areas on pcb, where "exceptions" would apply. In those
regions, the declared "exceptions" will apply to every component one
"puts there" - by chance or by design.
3.2. "replication" (almost by definition) will not have predefined
"areas on pcb", since "areas" on pcb where "replication touches" will be
"defined" during replication based on "replication rules" (like pinned
footprint). In my use cases I use "generate zone" tool using
sub-schematic as bases for "zones". This lead up to multiple zones being
generated on the same sub-schematic (despite ticking the "replace"
option). This a nuisance.
4. in consequence "replication" and "rule" zones already have (sort of)
different configuration options. (like "anchor footprint" ain't useful
for "prevent vias" in rule zone).
My conclusion is that "rule zones" should be more separated at user
interface (event if they share the back-end engine). Those are the
reasons I've earlier opted to put an "option tick" at schematic level to
indicate, that "this sub-sheet will be replicatable".
Ultimately, for the purpose of layout replication, it will be useful to
have "grid/matrix replication" - with explicit grid dimensions and
row/col counts; "circular replication" - with center of rotation, number
of instances and angular step; or more exotic replication path
definitions. Things useless in configuration of true "rule zones". Then
again, since there is an "anchor footprint", for SMD components, the
replication should "flip" replication (on back-side) whenever the
"anchor" for currently replication "zone" is flipped with respect to
anchor. (so replication will propagate to backside, instead of resetting
replication to the initial size the anchor is located at).
I hope those observations will be useful to somebody. It's a shame I
cannot normally put them into the gitlab. (And don't understand the
sources enough to contribute actual code).
Regards,
-R
On 16.06.2025 23:21, 'Seth Hillbrand' via KiCad Developers wrote:
> Thanks but without a GitLab report we will be unable to address this.
> Please consider that if everyone submitted an issue this way, the team
> would be unable to handle any of them.
>
> You may find end users willing to help you with understanding how to use
> multi channel tool better at the forum (https://forum.kicad.info
>
> Seth
>
> KiCad Services Corporation Logo
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
>
>
>
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483
> Long Beach, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com <https://www.kipro-pcb.com/> in...@kipro-pcb.com
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 2:01 PM Rafał Pietrak <sol...@electric-sheep.eu
> <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> https://www.electric-
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <https://
> www.electric-sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv>.
>
> Hi,
>
> https://www.electric-
> sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv <https://
> www.electric-sheep.eu/0WPPnXhN8uAVGNnNzGBaIISw6z7U84p7srSE411BTQ.mkv>.
> <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>
> > <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com <mailto:in...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 10:40 PM Rafał Pietrak <solver@electric-
> sheep.eu <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu>
> > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> > <mailto:sol...@electric-sheep.eu <mailto:solver@electric-
> <mailto:devlist%252Buns...@kicad.org>>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> kicad.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/>
> > d/msgid/devlist/b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-
> kicad.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/>
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> msgid/devlist/>
> > b78ce4e8-6f6a-419a-bcde-948fc9f6ed6b%40electric-sheep.eu
> <http://40electric-sheep.eu>>.
> msgid/devlist/>
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