Re: Reminder: keeping track of RFCs

[Jeremy Manson]

@eng-c...@fuchsia.dev 

I wonder if the eng council would consider doing something about that.  The process is supposed to be that RFC authors email that list when they post, but I could easily see any given person forgetting to do that.  Would it make sense to (for example) add an automatic notification when a facilitator is assigned, or similar process / tooling to make sure the correct notifications go to that list?

Jeremy

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:52 AM Mark Seaborn <msea...@google.com> wrote:

The eng-council-discuss@ mailing list does not seem to be a reliable way to find out about RFCs in a timely fashion in practice.  For many RFCs, the first announcement on eng-council-discuss@ is the "last call" notification.

Mark

On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 at 11:38, Jeremy Manson <jeremy...@google.com> wrote:

This includes announcements about when RFCs are posted as well as last call and acceptance notifications.

Jeremy

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:36 AM Jeremy Manson <jeremy...@google.com> wrote:

For those who don't want to follow the gerrit notifications, which include things like spell check fixes and minor updates to RFCs, official announcements about RFCs go to eng-counc...@fuchsia.dev, which you can join.

Jeremy

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:53 AM Marc-Antoine Ruel <mar...@google.com> wrote:

Hi all!

#1 The list of known RFCs is in go/fuchsia-rfc-tracker.

#2 See the on-going RFCs on Gerrit:

fuchsia-review.googlesource.com/q/dir:docs/contribute/governance/rfcs+is:open

You can get email notifications by adding the query at

fuchsia-review.googlesource.com/settings/#Notifications

Use "fuchsia" for repo and "dir:docs/contribute/governance/rfcs is:open" for the query. It'll look like this:

You can enable comments if desired, or just add yourself as cc on new RFCs that seem interesting to get comments, to reduce the amount of emails generated.

M-A

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[Adam Barth]

Sure.  We currently send the automatic "assigned facilitator" message to the author and the facilitator, but we can CC the mailing list.

RFCs are also announced in the #rfc channel in the Fuchsia discord.

Adam

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[Jeremy Manson]

Hm...  I was suggesting the facilitator state change assuming it was the best state change to signal, but I see #rfc has "is now in the Iterate stage", which might be a good signal as well.

Jeremy

[Adam Barth]

The go/fuchsia-rfc-tracker can hook any of the state transitions.  I agree that entering the iterate stage is probably more relevant for the mailing list than when the facilitator gets assigned (which is important for the author to know).

Adam

[Jeremy Manson]

SG.  Does something need to happen to start the ball rolling? Should we file a bug or something?

Jeremy

[Hunter Freyer]

I'm happy to set that up - I'll do it after today's FEC meeting.

However, I think Mark's email gives the implication that "Last Call" is too late to get involved in an RFC, which I don't think is the case. Anyone can ask to put the brakes on an RFC in Last Call if they have concerns, or even just to extend Last Call if they need more time to review.

To me, "Last Call" is the point at which the proposal is ready for everybody to take a look at, not just the known stakeholders. If you get involved too early, you spend a lot of time following all the changes to the proposal, and you can lose track of things or get fatigued. Get involved too late, and the proposal is already accepted. Last Call is a goldilocks zone for more peripheral stakeholders.

Thanks,

Hunter

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[Jeremy Manson]

Thanks, Hunter!

Part of what sparked this conversation is that there are people who want to self-identify as critical stakeholders who feel that they don't hear about RFCs until last call, which they feel is too late.

I've always felt that last call was an okay time to get involved, but I'd much rather get involved earlier, because there is less time pressure, and you get to be part of the active conversation, which has usually quiesced at last call.  I could miss an entire last calI because I have a busy week or am on vacation or something. 

I'm personally subscribed to Gerrit notifications.  I often will give a round of reviews early on, and then check again briefly at last call to make sure nothing startling has changed.  

(Extending last call seems like a bit of a nuclear option - it almost seems cruel to the RFC author!  I hope it doesn't happen much.)

Jeremy

[Hunter Freyer]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 11:04 AM Jeremy Manson <jeremy...@google.com> wrote:

Thanks, Hunter!

Part of what sparked this conversation is that there are people who want to self-identify as critical stakeholders who feel that they don't hear about RFCs until last call, which they feel is too late.

I've always felt that last call was an okay time to get involved, but I'd much rather get involved earlier, because there is less time pressure, and you get to be part of the active conversation, which has usually quiesced at last call.  I could miss an entire last calI because I have a busy week or am on vacation or something. 

Yup, totally agreed. 

 

I'm personally subscribed to Gerrit notifications.  I often will give a round of reviews early on, and then check again briefly at last call to make sure nothing startling has changed.  

(Extending last call seems like a bit of a nuclear option - it almost seems cruel to the RFC author!  I hope it doesn't happen much.)

I'm not aware of any RFCs that got substantially reworked after an objection in last call, but there may have been some. This is good because indeed, it sucks to go back to the drawing board, but also bad because it establishes a norm that Last Call is too late to change anything, which makes it kinda pointless.