Fw: Adaquan v Legend v Pentosan

[Dot Wiggins]

Kris has had some experience lately where serious help was needed for her good horse.  This is what she found through her own research and her very experienced vets.  Chic acquired a joint inflammation in late October

The horse has recovered from 3 legged and in a lot of pain 90 days ago to a grade .5, playing in the pasture with the yearling.  I think he has also been on Tildren as well as other treatments during the acute phase. 

Remarkable what can be done today compared to just a few years ago!!

 

Dot

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Troxel, Kris

To: Dot Wiggins

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 9:51 AM

Subject: Adaquan v Legend v Pentosan

Here is my current understanding.

 

Adaquan – is given intramuscularly. Need to give a loading dose of 7 doses, 4 days apart then can be given at a defined frequency based on need. Lots of real data on its use and effectiveness. Designed to support & potentially repair cartilage. Doses run ~$35. It can be purchased in single dose vials or 10 dose bottles online with a prescription.

 

Legend – is given IV or into the joint so difficult for most owners to do themselves. Has similar effectiveness/purpose to Adaquan and some folks use them together, when cost is not an issue. Requires a prescription.

 

Pentosan – is more of an injectable anti-inflammatory than a joint repair/support drug like the others. It is given IM. There is not much real data on its use in horses for arthritis treatment and it is not officially approved for use in the US. The advocates are calling it “generic Adaquan” but it is not even a similar chemical compound. It was developed as a human drug for anti-coagulation. It is made in Australia and is as expensive as Adaquan when the real Pentosan is imported. The versions available in the US are compounded so there is real concern about who does the compounding, the safety of the compounding pharmacy, etc. Because it is coming from a compounding pharmacy and is not, currently, approved by the FDA it does not require a prescription.

 

I have discussed all of these with Billy. We have chosen Adaquan for Chic in part because of its safety, the real data and ease of use. My attitude is that if I am going to spend $$ I want some proof that it will actually do what I am buying it for. I am also extremely leery of compounding pharmacies after the horrid incident in Florida with the polo horses and the recent human nightmare. I buy Adaquan on-line.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kris

 

 

 

 

[Susan Garlinghouse, DVM]

I disagree with Kris’ coments regarding Pentosan.  There is good data regarding its efficacy and use by Dr. Wayne McIlwraith, who is a veterinarian/orthopedic surgeon/PhD, and the acknowledged Godfather of equine orthopedics the world over.  He did a good controlled study that demonstrated a significantly improved response in horses when administering Pentosan over Adequan.  They’re not the same product, nor would anyone I know of typify Pentosan as a generic Adequan.  They do similar things, but they’re not the same substance.  There is a generic polysulfated glucosaminoglycan out there, but it’s not the same thing as Pentosan.

 

I do obtain my Pentosan from a very well respected compounding pharmacy (Wedgewood) and as far as I know, they would not sell it to a client without a prescription.  I know they’ve denied refill requests on numerous products from clients until they got an okay from me approving it (or not).  Whether that would be true of every compounding pharmacy on the planet, I don’t know.  I’ve been very happy with the quality of the product, and the results I’m seeing in my practice.

 

But I use a lot of Adequan in my practice, as well.

 

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM

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[Elizabeth Walker]

I'm a big believer in Adequan.  

I had my old horse on it for arthritis in the pastern.  If the shot was late, he would start going slightly off.  Give the dose, and he was sound.  Totally clear cut response.

My vet was dropping by and giving the shots as a service, so I wasn't aware of exactly when they were given.  Every once in a while he would be a week late, and I could always tell by how my guy traveled - I would call, and sure enough, he hadn't made it out.

The times I called and he *had* given the shots, we ended up redoing the loading dose.  Eventually, we ended up increasing the frequency.

My current fellow is on it too - nothing as clear cut, but we gave him a loading dose as a test, and his general movement improved noticeably, so I put him on the program.

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[Cindy Collins]

Karen Chaton and her 10,000+ mile horses are a big testament to Pentosan use.  Hopefully, she will get online and comment some time, but you can go on her blog and read about her use of the drug. I believe Barney Fleming, DVM is her prescribing vet.   I used it with my mares this past year and was very happy with the result and the service.  Cindy

[Karen]

I started using Pentosan in 2011 on my two horses.  I was fortunate enough to be able to ride with endurance riders in Australia that year and learned from them how popular Pentosan was over any other joint product.  Chief had close to 11,000 miles at the time and Bo probably had around 3,000.  They are now at slighter over 13,000 and 6,000 and both are doing extremely well.  I started with a loading dose of a few doses four days apart, and then have followed up with giving one shot per month.  I prefer to give it a week ahead of a ride.  Pentosan has been widely used in other parts of the world on both humans and horses.  There is research to back up that it works, and I have many friends who have been very happy with the results.  I can afford to give it to both horses for less than the cost of giving one horse Adequan.  Karen 

[roit...@yahoo.com]

A big thank you to Karen and everybody who posted on this subject. 

It has been very educational.

Three years ago, a vet recommended a course of Legend and Adequan for my 17 year old Arab. 

I decided to retire her instead.

However, despite her arthritis, she still moves well, ponies next to my youngster with no problem, and has no soundness issues.

I am now seriously contemplating bringing her back on Pentosan which was suggested to me by another vet last year. 

Thank you again for all the great feedback!

Romina

[Lori Bertolucci]

Is a vet's prescription required to get Pentosan, as with Adequan?

---

From: Karen <kch...@gmail.com>
To: ride...@endurance.net
Sent: Sat, February 2, 2013 10:04:11 AM
Subject: [RC] Re: Fw: Adaquan v Legend v Pentosan

I started using Pentosan in 2011 on my two horses.  I was fortunate enough to be able to ride with endurance riders in Australia that year and learned from them how popular Pentosan was over any other joint product.  Chief had close to 11,000 miles at the time and Bo probably had around 3,000.  They are now at slighter over 13,000 and 6,000 and both are doing extremely well.  I started with a loading dose of a few doses four days apart, and then have followed up with giving one shot per month.  I prefer to give it a week ahead of a ride.  Pentosan has been widely used in other parts of the world on both humans and horses.  There is research to back up that it works, and I have many friends who have been very happy with the results.  I can afford to give it to both horses for less than the cost of giving one horse Adequan.  Karen 

On Saturday, February 2, 2013 6:27:42 AM UTC-8, Cindy Collins wrote:

Karen Chaton and her 10,000+ mile horses are a big testament to Pentosan use.  Hopefully, she will get online and comment some time, but you can go on her blog and read about her use of the drug. I believe Barney Fleming, DVM is her prescribing vet.   I used it with my mares this past year and was very happy with the result and the service.  Cindy

--

[Karen Standefer]

You can purchase it internationally without a script.  But, who knows the quality.  If you were to do that, I've heard of some good quality sources in Australia (a few years back..........not sure if I kept the links or not, but I can look).

[roit...@yahoo.com]

I looked up Dr. Barney Fleming's site and here is the info on Pentosan:

http://equinedoc.com/joint-products/pentosan/

They also posted an informational 54 page e-book:

http://www.equinedoc.com/pentosan_polysulphate___a_medicine_made_from_beech_bark.pdf

Happy Reading,

Romina

On Saturday, February 2, 2013 6:27:42 AM UTC-8, Cindy Collins wrote:

[Dawn Carrie]

Hmmm...Some of the things I see on Flemings site cause me concern.
There is repeated reference to Pentosan being an "anti-inflamatory."
And the comment that if a horse become sore, give them another shot of
it.

So - how does this mesh with AERC's drug policy? Especially if
someone (as Karen stated she is doing) regularly administers this drug
(an admitted anti-inflammatory agent) one week prior to a ride? Yes,
I know it says it stimulates cartilage repair, etc., but it also
clearly states that it is an anti-inflammatory drug...multiple times,
in fact.

Has the AERC drug committee weighed in on the use of this drug?

Dawn Carrie

> --

[Amanda Washington]

I am sorry, but I think that's ridiculous. Why are endurance riders the only people in the horse industry that are so strongly against making their horses feel better? Adequan, Legend and Pentosan can all offer excellent and documented benefits that can help offset the damage we do to our horses on a regular basis. I do not understand the mentality that these things should be banned, including banning the use of Gastroguard. It floors me and if AERC implemented more drug rules, I would strongly reconsider my participation.

We are lucky to be able to take anti-inflammatories if we are feeling sore. I understand certain drugs being prohibited, but things like arnica, msm, devils claw, whatever, will not take a grade three lame horse sound. Most likely neither will Pentosan or other therapies that we can utilize to make our horses happier, healthier and last longer. Don't get me started on making Gastroguard a banned substance, I think it's a crying shame.

Amanda

Sent from my iPhone

[Karen Standefer]

Whoot, whoot, whoot!  I totally agree!

[Dawn Carrie]

Amanda, there's a difference between providing our horses with
supplements such as Adequan and Legend that stave off and/or reverse
the wear and tear of the miles we ask them to do, and giving them
anti-inflammatory medications/substances that suppress/mask pain, such
as arnica, devil's claw, and others. I was simply asking in which
category Pentosan fell. From the description provided on Barney
Fleming's site, it sounds as if it may fall into both...in which case
it's legality under AERC's drug rules may be questionable.

Dawn

[Amanda Washington]

Adequan and Legend both provide anti-inflammatory benefits. Joint injections usually include steroids, which are anti-inflammatories, should we ban those also?

And I still have to argue that whatever effects oral joint supplements offer, they are still not going to make a lame horse sound. God forbid we make them a little more comfortable when we are asking them to carry our butts 100's or 1000's of miles in a season. It's just something I don't understand.

Amanda

Sent from my iPhone

[teddy]

Amanda Washington wrote:

I am sorry, but I think that's ridiculous. Why are endurance riders the only people in the horse industry that are so strongly against making their horses feel better? Adequan, Legend and Pentosan can all offer excellent and documented benefits that can help offset the damage we do to our horses on a regular basis. I do not understand the mentality that these things should be banned, including banning the use of Gastroguard. It floors me and if AERC implemented more drug rules, I would strongly reconsider my participation. 
  

While I agree on the above, GastroGuard is not "natural". There are other remedies for stomach ulcers... MSM is a mild anti-inflammatory and also a natural substance. I take it myself. It does not last long in the system and does not do anything more than relive inflammation temporarily (except that it likely will promote hoof growth.)  Many substances, OVERUSED may be harmful, but there are also many that can be "beneficial" i.e. help temporarily.  The problem lies in that SOME people may over use a substance (natural or otherwise) for THEIR benefit, not the horse...(I.E. to get more points or mileage). Hard to draw the line, but the devil is in the details.  WHEN, HOW MUCH and HOW OFTEN and in WHAT DOSAGE?

--

Teddy Lancaster
http://runningbear.com/
5991 NC Hwy 22 N
Climax, NC 27233
800-533-BEAR

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[deser...@aol.com]

AERC is the ONLY equine organization for a horse sport that requires horses to go on their own abilities, without any potentially performance enhancing substances (PPES).  The prohibition against the use of drugs or other PPES is only during the actual event, which usually means that the horse has to be withdrawn from the substance about 96 hours or more before the ride in order to have it out of the body by ride day.  This rule makes me prouder of AERC than almost anything they require from participants.  The theory is that a horse that cannot go the distance without some performance-enhancing substance, shouldn't be doing endurance, and I agree with this rule 100%.

Racehorses can have almost anything as long as it's declared and properly administered.  Do you think the horse that wins the race while on bute, or some other anti inflammatory would have won without it?  Is it a true test of the horse if it competes on drugs/PPES?  No, to me it's not.  Dressage horses, rodeo competitors, eventers, they can all give their horses drugs/PPES to enhance the horse's performance.  Is that fair to the competitor who maybe doesn't have a huge budget to put their horse on a bunch of "therapeutic" supplements.  Many of them run about $1. per day per horse or MORE.  Karen is well within her rights to give the shot a week before a ride, the actual medication will be out of the horse's system by ride day.  But the effects of pentosan, for instance, continue well after the day of the injection. 

And NO I NEVER WANT TO SEE AN ENDURANCE HORSE COMPETE ON STEROIDS!  Steroids given to people do more longterm harm than the temporary good they do in relieving pain and inflammation. I have serious back issues (3 back and neck surgeries) and absolutely refuse to let my Dr. prescribe corticosteroids for me.  You can't tell me that if they cause so much longterm harm to people that they don't harm horses in the longterm also. 

There are lots of anti inflammatories that are not drugs--cold hosing and icing spring to mind.  There are ways to feed before a ride, or on ride day that may lessen the impact of stress--I'm thinking alfalfa hay, with it's higher calcium levels. 

Please don't try to convince our organization to allow the use of drugs or other PPES during rides.  I will be done with AERC if that happens.  I will quit, not go to rides, and try to found another organization based on the current principles of AERC if that happens, and I suspect I'll have a lot of company.
jeri

[Kathy Sherman]

Egusin does not have banned substances and can help with ulcer
prevention and cure. Dr Ridgeway recommended it on the
wholehorsehealth yahoo group. While I do think that some riders might
give a supplement or drug for the riders benefit (awards or
recognition) most only want to protect their horses from possible
issues and since it seems that even travel to a ride can bring on
ulcers it also does not make sense to me to disallow the use of ulcer
meds on ride day. At the same time, it is suspected to be a problem
with long term daily use, so that is a problem. Egusin may not protect
as well as the ulcer meds, I don't know, but at least it is an option.
And the ulcer meds can be used in the days before the ride if I
remember correctly, just not within the 24 hrs prior to ride start?

I don't know how much study has been done with horses, inflammation,
and curcumin, but it is also an antiflammatory, which has been an
incredible help with my arthritis in the past 4 months that I've been
taking it. I saw a new horse arthritis supplement recently in which
curcumin was included in a fairly high dose, along with the usual
others, msm, glucosamine, and a couple others I don't recall.

Kathy

[teddy]

Nice news if it will not be banned in the future. I, too, take curcumin, glucosamine and msm.  It works short term, so I take it daily.

[Karen Standefer]

Curcumin is helpful for lots of things.  It also shrunk the melanomas in my geldings sheath.  it's one of my favorite herbs! 

Karen

[Susan Garlinghouse, DVM]

Amanda Washington wrote:

I am sorry, but I think that's ridiculous. Why are endurance riders the only people in the horse industry that are so strongly against making their horses feel better? Adequan, Legend and Pentosan can all offer excellent and documented benefits that can help offset the damage we do to our horses on a regular basis. 

All three of those drugs *are* allowed by AERC.  Just not at the ride.

I’m not so sure that Pentosan has some direct anti-inflammatory properties, at least not in the sense that bute, Banamine and aspirin do.  It’s certainly not in the same category of anti-inflammatory as steroids.  I might be incorrect about that, but I suspect any anti-inflammatory properties have to do with changing the proteins within an inflamed joint than actually affecting prostaglandins and inflammatory mediators.  Inflamed tissues also preferentially uptake more of the circulating drug than do non-inflamed tissues, and that might have something to do with it as well.  That’s why you can give a drug in the muscle or jugular vein and it will still end up in an arthritic hock.

Nate might have some input when he stops by.

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 2/4/2013 6:50 PM, deser...@aol.com wrote:

Dressage horses, rodeo competitors, eventers, they can all give their horses drugs/PPES to enhance the horse's performance. 

I just got back from our local discount farm store.  I purchased some horse vitamins and some Biotin for my retired Ranger who has really poor feet.  I happened to notice that the display of magic joint and other treatments was about 90 % of the stuff. 

Apparently, much of the horse world thinks it is normal to have to drug horses to use them.

My personal feeling is that with proper management, proper care, and proper selection, horses can participate in the sport of distance riding without being drugged.


Ed

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[Diane Trefethen]

Amanda et al,

Pain is not a disorder or an illness or a diagnosable physical problem. It's a
symptom. When living tissue is damaged it tries to insulate itself (swelling)
and sends messages to the brain saying, "Don't use me" (pain) while it undergoes
repair. When you take a drug that reduces or eliminates pain, you reduce or
eliminate the message to the brain, "Don't use me." Your horse doesn't know that
it is the drug that has eliminated his pain; he thinks he is all right and there
is no reason to restrict his use of the damaged area. In a healthy horse, pain
serves the purpose of keeping an injured area from being used before it has
healed, which use could cause additional damage.

Your perception that Endurance is a sport in which we damage "our horses on a
regular basis" worries me. If your horse is reasonably suitable for the sport
and you give him feed which nourishes and replenishes his system and you bring
his condition up to a level at which he can perform as you want, then you won't
be damaging him on a regular basis. In fact, it is arguable that you will be
damaging him at all, much less regularly. So what horses DO get damaged?

The number one reason for a horse being damaged in Endurance is failure to
condition him to a level where he can do what you ask. If you condition just
enough to do a 5-6mph LD and you DO a 5-6mph LD, you won't damage your horse. If
you go faster or longer, you will stress him beyond his conditioning. He might
get through the ride, and maybe the next one, and since he'd doing so well, you
boost his speed some more and then "inexplicably" he comes up lame, pulls a
muscle, his heart rate fails to stabilize, something. Why? Because you
conditioned him for a 5-6mph LD and instead you're asking him for 10-11mph. You
have injured your horse by asking too much FOR HIS CONDITIONING. Now you want to
give him some drugs to make him happier (pain free) and "last longer?" The truth
here is that he doesn't NEED drugs to mask his pain. He needs you to condition
him better so he doesn't damage tissue and HAVE pain. And if you haven't the
time to do the conditioning or despite more than adequate conditioning, your
horse is STILL unable to go 25 miles @ 10-11mph without coming up sore or lame,
then it is clear that your horse is not suitable for distance racing at that
speed. Either be satisfied with 5-6mph, quit the sport, or get a more suitable
horse.

"A more suitable horse" is a two-sided coin. Many horses are suitable for 7mph
50s. Somewhat fewer for 9-10mph 50s. Less yet for 7mph 100s and even fewer for
9-10mph 100s. So what is "suitable" depends not only on the horse but on what
you plan to ask of him. If you want 5mph LDs, there are hundreds of thousands of
suitable horses. If you want 9-10mph 100s, your horse universe just shrunk down
to about three dozen in the country. So what if you can't FIND one? Do you take
a 7mph 100 horse and MAKE him go faster? Some people do and all such horses get
damaged. What's the cure? Drugs? Pain killers? Steroids? Anti-inflamatories? Or
just doing 7mph 100s?

The bar AERC sets is that an equine should perform on its own merits. Included
is feed in quantities sufficient to replace all that the extra demands of
Endurance remove from the equine's system. If the horse needs more "stuff," then
it is probably being asked to go faster, farther and/or more frequently than it
has been prepared for.

[Dawn Carrie]

Beautifully stated, Diane!

Dawn Carrie

[Kathy Sherman]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that Egusin had any problem with long
term daily use. I was referring to ulcer medications that shut down
acid production. I realized that my post was confusing in that
statement.

Kathy

[Alice Y.]

Well aerc is not the only one. Natrc has also adopted the drug rules used by Aerc. I tend to agree with a lot of what Amanda said regarding substances that make our horses feel better. However that said, as long as those are the rules I will loudly grumble bout it but follow them as I'm sure you guys are doing as well.

[Alice Y.]

FYI I should have been more specific. The substances I wish I could use are all homeopathy, Bach flowers and the like. I have used adequan on my old mare in the past and felt like it really helped her.

[Amanda Washington]

Inflammation equals damage. After an event, most of us chose to fight inflammation by ice, compression, etc. Yet nutraceuticals that are known to deflect inflammation are banned, which I find unfortunate. I understand the dangers of medication such as bute or banamine in a potentially dehydrated horse, but topicals such as arnica, methol-type ingredients and even Surpass, are essentially harmless and, again, will not mask a grade three lameness.

I am sorry my perception of endurance as damaging horses worries you. However, you cannot possibly argue that riding horses thousands upon thousands of miles does not create wear and tear that would otherwise not happen to a horse standing around a pasture, riding a few circles in an arena or popping over a few fences here and there. Endurance horses are repeatedly asked to continue going- over hard footing, soft footing and everything in between,at speed, to boot. Please tell me you really don't think that's not wear and tear on your horse. Wear and tear equals damage. It's just the reality of the sport. Much like horse racing, eventing, even upper-level dressage, horses are not meant to go as hard, fast and often as we make them. The people who have horses who continue going and going, are very fortunate. For my horses, I personally would like to mitigate the damage as much as possible, and find it a crying shame we are not allowed to use Gastroguard, joint supplements or even topicals that may help with scratches or other skin conditions. Although most of these substances aren't even testable, I will continue to abide by the rules, but it doesn't mean I won't disagree with them. Meanwhile, my dressage horse will be allowed to continue his regularly scheduled supplements throughout the season, including shows. Ironic, considering what is asked of him is nothing compared to the endurance horses. 

That's the last from me. 

Amanda

---

From: Diane Trefethen <tr...@wakerobinranch.com>
To: ride...@endurance.net
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2013 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [RC] Re: Fw: Adaquan v Legend v Pentosan

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[Sandra Adams]

honestly? Jumping, dressage, cutting, reining, racing, endurance - they ALL cause wear and tear. So does running from predators in the wild to a degree. The most damaged of our horses has been our dressage horse. he was most competent, but ended up with some lower back issues, hock issues - and is retired at 12 years old. He is not the only one. Endurance is likely one of the most damaging OVER TIME and particularly when not ridden or cared for just right. Just FYI, some of those jumpers I competed against over the years were broken down in their early teens, whilst many, many endurance horses continue into the late teens and even twenties. That said, form one with a reconstructed right ankle, I can confirm that a damaged joint, while usable, likely has fewer pounding miles left in it than the other. So WHY can we not use certain products in endurance? Not sure I agree with prohibiting topicals AFTEr a ride any more than i would agree to hold back e lytes etc., but my mare who would require pretty regular maintenance  for her hind gut issues is NOT a great prospect for long term endurance, even though she is an awesome, comfy, level headed distance horse. I do believe that, much like the MJB players who have doped, even naturally occurring substances, were hammered for it, because it DOES create an unlevel playing field. These sports are supposed to separate the mice from the men, and everyone CAN'T do it - so using a substance to try to get Ibn - or my mare - to compete, and perhaps to TT, might not be either fair to the less suitable or to those who have the more suitable athletes. Inflammation does create damage. Our horses don't get overridden and they DO get whatever care or treatment they need as they get annual, winter layoffs. A lot of riders don't make our choices, but a lot of riders have super stars. I don't think we do:). 

Seems like the list of prohibited substances ought to be revisited each season. 

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Sandy Adams

Deep Sands Arabians

www.garyadamsbooks.com

Home of Salazar SF

"The Gentleman Stallion"

[Dawn Carrie]

Sandy, AERC does NOT prohibit you giving your horse anything you want,
or using any topical you want, *after* the ride. Once you've
completed (gone through the final vet check), you can dose the horse
up with anything and everything. Of course, that's not adviseable,
and I know you're not one of the ones who is dumb enough to give a
dehydrated horse banamine, for example, although I know some who are.
But sure, you can use linaments, etc. on joints. Think about
it...treatment vets give meds to colicking horses at rides, use meds
if a horse sustains an injury that removes it from the ride, etc. The
AERC drug policy only states that the horse cannot *compete* while on
the substances on the list.

Dawn

[Chrystal Woodhouse]

Meanwhile, my dressage horse will be allowed to continue his regularly scheduled supplements throughout the season, including shows. Ironic, considering what is asked of him is nothing compared to the endurance horses.

Just wanted to comment here as a Equine Massage Therapist with over 10 years working on horses, I can tell you that hard working Dressage horses have the most issues of all the disciplines I work with, of course that is high level, lots of work Dressage horses......... but hands down I would say it asks the most of the horses over and over again. And I would also say as an Endurance rider my experience is that most people actually do not ride their horses thousands of miles. And while I cannot comment on joint integrity in different breeds I can also say that Arabs are one of my favourite breeds to work on as their muscles are flexible.light and easily worked on compared to WB's, a well built Arab actually has very little problem dealing with high work load. If you go have a look at the Decade Team interviews one thing that stands out ( to me ) is how little people used in regards to supplements etc.... it seemed many successful horse/rider teams used common sense, long,slow,training ( at first) ,overall conditioning and LISTENED to what their horse could do.

My mare is at 2000 miles in long distance riding, 18 yrs old, perfectly sound and healthy,  I never gave her stuff after a ride a) because that can mess with them if they are dehydrated and b) I needed to see how she handled the ride, overall I expected to have her in good enough shape that what I asked her to do was not that hard, if she was sore, had leg swelling etc.. that was a sign to me that I needed to do more work at home as I was asking too much of her. Yes I would wrap legs with clay and a few hours after a hundred ( after lots of water) I might give some bute , because 24 hours on the OD trail will make anyone sore and tight!! lOL
Oh I did have polyglycan ( sp?) injected IV every 3 months in the years she was working hard, it is a joint lubricant .


Chrystal :-)

[Karen Standefer]

Thank you Amanda.  Very well put.  I share you same concerns.

Karen

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[richardson.carla]

I certainly agree with Amanda also.  I have no desire to hurt my horse and have no desire to drug my horse or mask any ailment.  

However, there are preventative and protective things we can use to help our horses.  Adequan and Legend certainly are helpful.  Use of painkillers like bute or banamine certainly are not desirable to use because of hiding a real problem and causing damage. 

This needs further discussion by our board and especially by our vet committee.  Dr. Jay Mero (head of our AERC vet committee) has my utmost respect and I truly believe she is one who is looking for ways to protect our endurance horses, and help them cope with the stresses of our extreme sport. 

Carla Richardson 

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[Diane Trefethen]

Bruce Weary has been having a problem reaching Ridecamp so he asked me to
forward these comments:

Some points of clarification regarding our drug rules:
1) Restricting the use of many drugs in our sport has nothing to do with our
members not wanting to make our
horses comfortable or to ease their pains. This is a straw man argument.
2) Legend, Adequan and other chondroprotective injectibles actually have
restorative effects on joints, and promote
improved joint health, something that masking agents don't do, in fact they may
actually worsen or delay healing. They can be used,
just not introduced on ride day. This is true of many substances, including
Omeprazole.
3) Restricting the use of PPI's like Omeprazole is based on the known (and
unknown) physiological effects on the
various systems of the horse that are particularly stressed during an endurance
ride, and could potentially affect their
health or physiology negatively, despite their ability to make the horse "feel
better." Human use of PPI's is becoming increasingly
fraught with the occurrence of hip fracture.
4) The commonality with which gastritis or ulcerative disorders occur in some
horses does not make it "normal," "inevitable," or
"excusable" and therefore serve as a rationale for drugging the horse to get it
through something as stressful
as an endurance ride. The horse needs the acidity of his HCL to digest fiber and
absorb calcium, both of which are
vital to the health of the horse. This, again, despite the ability of a PPI to
make a horse feel better. If making a horse
feel more comfortable is the only goal, where would we draw the line as to which
drugs are allowed to perform that task?
Bute? Banamine? Morphine? Many horses, properly managed, recover from ulcerative
disease. Also, remember that "every patient is
entitled to more than one problem." If a horse with suspected or confirmed
ulcerative disease shows discomfort, how does the rider
know that his pain might not also be from some other origin, like colic from
impaction, dehydration, or hind gut ulcers, that Omeprazole
does not affect? The reason a Rubik's Cube is difficult to solve is that there
are six sides to it. :)
5) Lastly, I read somewhere recently that when something truly doesn't "make
sense" to us, one of the best things we can do
is consult an expert (in this case, perhaps a DVM with vast endurance
experience) and ask to be enlightened as to the rationales
put forth that support how our current drug rule stands. But then, be prepared
to have your mind changed. Too often when someone
says, "I just don't get it," they already have their minds made up and aren't
really interested in a more informed perspective, but rather hope
to gain support for the position they already hold.
Bruce Weary