Thumps
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heidi larson
May 20, 2012, 10:40:48 PM5/20/12
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History - 16 year old seasoned endurance arab gelding - 46 rides - 1 lameness pull, many top tens, BC's, great recoveries normally, CRI's usually around 44/44 or better, can almost always trot to the VC and be down by the time I get my card out. In 2008 we did a 2day 100 and when we showed for BC he was thumping slightly. My first experience with this - I had used a different brand of e-lytes and kind of chalked it up to that. 2nd time was last fall on a long 80 miler - once again, completing but showing signs of thumping at the BC judging an hour later. If I recall correctly he had been e-lyted quite a few times over the day and he'd drank pretty well but there was one time during the ride where we took an extra 45 min. at a vet check as he was just not eating well. His ten min. CRI was 40/44. Yesterday at the Mt. Adams ride we walked out of camp on a loose rein, doing a 50, weather was cold at the start (frost) there were 43 starters and we started close to the end of the big first pack. He had been given 1/2 dose of his normal Dynaspark e-lytes the night before, his vet in HR was 36 btw, and dose the morning of the ride (usual protocol.) Stop and Go at 12 miles, he pulsed in around 52, looked great at the vet, pee'd, elyted and was eating grass, out for another 12 mile loop, moved out nice, pretty much a normal pace for him, drank at the 30 min. hold - so no water other than a sip until he had done 24 miles - not uncommon for a cool morning for him. He was eating well (grass and his wet oats) I elyted with a dose of lyte ryte and left for our 3rd 12 mile loop - pace was slower - we were alone the whole loop. He took bites of grass when I asked him to and drank really well out of a deep mud
puddle and I e-lyted him on this loop - it was warming up at this point as well - probably in the 70's. In for a vet check and 30 min. hold and thumping for the vet. Pulsed in with a 52 right into the check, was eating and drank well before we saw the vet. Not stressed at all, HR was in the 40's by the time we got to the vet, trotted out unambitiously but that's typical for him. Gave a dose of elytes and within 10 min. his symptoms were gone.
Background - horse normally hasnt' got alot of pasture but had been out on it during the day (about 6-8 hours per day) for the prior 2 weeks, I supplement magnesium daily as he's super spooky on green spring grass. We condition 3-4 days per week. His mashes have about a cup of stabilized rice bran, Mag, vitamins, extra vit. B's, MSM until a week prior to a ride, beet pulp, couple of cups of Senior Feed and extra vit E/Selenium (we live in a deficient area.) I feed alfalfa starting the day prior to the ride all the way through Sat. night plus any hay he wants - this ride had alot of grass in camp and in his corral.
We did not pull blood since I'd e-lyted and it took awhile to wait for the rig to take us back. I have a ride in 2 weeks and plan on pulling blood at the end, thumping or not.
I think I've given all our info. - if anyone has suggestions or things you've done that helped or figured out your cause, please let me know. I am researching myself but hearing actual cases is important I think. I also of course picked 3 vet's brains at the ride and two riders that are quite successful gave me some good information.
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
Buddy
May 20, 2012, 11:01:46 PM5/20/12
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You are over riding your horse. Back off and give him some down time.
And then, you , well. enough said.
And then, you , well. enough said.
heidi larson
May 20, 2012, 11:28:33 PM5/20/12
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If you check our AERC record you can see that he's had less than 2000 miles in just under 10 years. We were on our first ride of the season after some good normal conditioning and a 4 month layoff which is normal protocol for him. We were doing a relatively easy 50 under good conditions, cool weather, vet said horse was NOT acting stressed at all.
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. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
--- On Mon, 5/21/12, Buddy <buddy....@gmail.com> wrote:
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Sheri Devouassoux
May 20, 2012, 11:37:50 PM5/20/12
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Heidi,
I am not familiar with Dyna Spark electrolytes so I did a quick comparison at
http://enduranceridestuff.com/blog/electrolytes/ . What I noticed immediately is that your electrolytes contain the least amount of potassium on the whole list. By far. My basic understanding of thumps is that it has something to do with an electrolyte imbalance. Maybe just switching him to an electrolyte that has more potassium might solve the problem (?), I am not sure.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I hope that others can learn from this. Good luck!
Sheri Devouassoux
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Jonni
May 20, 2012, 11:41:01 PM5/20/12
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You are NOT over riding him.... Some seem to think that MUST be the
reason for a horse to have an issue. I've been lucky to not have a
horse thump (yet), and I'm sure others who have dealt with it will
chime in, but I'd guess diet issues are a huge contributor. Let us
know what you find out, as thumps have always confused me, as they
seem to worry many, while others are not so concerned
Jonni
On May 20, 10:28 pm, heidi larson <ribbitttreef...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you check our AERC record you can see that he's had less than 2000 miles in just under 10 years. We were on our first ride of the season after some good normal conditioning and a 4 month layoff which is normal protocol for him. We were doing a relatively easy 50 under good conditions, cool weather, vet said horse was NOT acting stressed at all.
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> . o o
> heidi larson
>
> --- On Mon, 5/21/12, Buddy <buddy.glea...@gmail.com> wrote:
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reason for a horse to have an issue. I've been lucky to not have a
horse thump (yet), and I'm sure others who have dealt with it will
chime in, but I'd guess diet issues are a huge contributor. Let us
know what you find out, as thumps have always confused me, as they
seem to worry many, while others are not so concerned
Jonni
On May 20, 10:28 pm, heidi larson <ribbitttreef...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you check our AERC record you can see that he's had less than 2000 miles in just under 10 years. We were on our first ride of the season after some good normal conditioning and a 4 month layoff which is normal protocol for him. We were doing a relatively easy 50 under good conditions, cool weather, vet said horse was NOT acting stressed at all.
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> . \______/ /
> . \_______/\ /-
> . o-- /_/ \ /
> . / \ / /
> . o o o-- /
> . / \
> . o o
> heidi larson
>
>
> To post to this group, send email to ridec...@endurance.net
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to: ridecamp+unsubscr...@endurance.net
heidi larson
May 20, 2012, 11:56:23 PM5/20/12
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| Thanks Jonni - I spoke with Sue Summers afterward - they pull their horses off pasture a week prior to a ride - she says it messes with their mag./pot. levels. Ash had been on pasture too much she thinks. |
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
| --- On Mon, 5/21/12, Jonni <txtr...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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merri melde
May 20, 2012, 11:58:06 PM5/20/12
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and isn't there something about taking a thump horse off alfalfa before a ride, but giving him alfalfa during the ride? Don't quote me, somebody correct me.
heidi larson
May 20, 2012, 11:58:09 PM5/20/12
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| Thanks Sheri - you are right - while the Ca levels are pretty good - and everyone looks to Ca first, potassium might actually be our culprit. I'm planning on a ride in 2 weeks - a 50, thumping or not we're pulling blood at the end of the ride to see what his chemicals are doing at the end of some hard work. |
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
| --- On Mon, 5/21/12, Sheri Devouassoux <sheridev...@gmail.com> wrote: |
Sheri Devouassoux
May 21, 2012, 12:09:10 AM5/21/12
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Let us know how it goes!
Sheri Devouassoux
Bonnie
May 21, 2012, 8:58:08 AM5/21/12
to heidi larson
Hello heidi,
Your horse should have been getting plenty of potassium from the hay
and grass. However, you might want to look at the values of calcium
and magnesium in your pasture and in your non-alfalfa hay. I once
pulled a hay analysis on some nice prairie grass hay I got from
Kansas and it turned out to be as high in calcium as Alfalfa. If a
grass hay can be that high in calcium, then so can a pasture. This
could be throwing off your horse. If a pasture or hay field was
limed then it could result in higher calcium when you think nothing
has changed and you might not know if the hay field was limed. So I
would suggest that you might want to do a hay analysis, and a pasture
analysis to really get down to finding out what is really going on.
You might find that you need to supplement more Magnesium than you
already are. Who knows. And that is the problem, unless you are
already supplementing on actual values from a hay analysis or pasture
analysis or at least going on average values for pasture. After all
the blood values are dependent on what your horse is eating.
I don't see any mention of feeding plain salt to your horse or how
much plain salt your horse is consuming at home. Plain salt is very
important too ;-)
--
Best regards,
Bonnie mailto:bon...@b4boots.com
http://www.b4boots.com
check out our blog at http://www.b4boots.com/w
Your horse should have been getting plenty of potassium from the hay
and grass. However, you might want to look at the values of calcium
and magnesium in your pasture and in your non-alfalfa hay. I once
pulled a hay analysis on some nice prairie grass hay I got from
Kansas and it turned out to be as high in calcium as Alfalfa. If a
grass hay can be that high in calcium, then so can a pasture. This
could be throwing off your horse. If a pasture or hay field was
limed then it could result in higher calcium when you think nothing
has changed and you might not know if the hay field was limed. So I
would suggest that you might want to do a hay analysis, and a pasture
analysis to really get down to finding out what is really going on.
You might find that you need to supplement more Magnesium than you
already are. Who knows. And that is the problem, unless you are
already supplementing on actual values from a hay analysis or pasture
analysis or at least going on average values for pasture. After all
the blood values are dependent on what your horse is eating.
I don't see any mention of feeding plain salt to your horse or how
much plain salt your horse is consuming at home. Plain salt is very
important too ;-)
--
Best regards,
Bonnie mailto:bon...@b4boots.com
http://www.b4boots.com
check out our blog at http://www.b4boots.com/w
Wilson's at VSF
May 21, 2012, 9:10:41 AM5/21/12
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Heidi, It's my understanding that they give calcium to a horse that is
thumping. Is your horse lacking calcium? Ginny
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Katrina Mosshammer
May 21, 2012, 9:56:08 AM5/21/12
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Heidi, Although I haven't had a horse thump, I have seen a few throughout
the years. And Like Ginny said usually a dose of calcium does the trick.
It is an elyte imbalance and usually finding the right mix for your horse
takes care of the issue. Usually horses do well on a specific brand of ready to
mix or pre-mixed tube elytes. But some horses need a special mix tailored to
meet their particular needs. We use a mix made by Stablegear Tack at home in
their mash, when needed, and Enduralytes during a ride, but we also give extra
calcium when needed. My suggestion would to be get the blood work done both at
normal and during thumping and see what imbalance is causing the issue. Then you
can make him a special mix for his needs.
Katrina
Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
Susan
May 21, 2012, 10:25:57 AM5/21/12
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| Good observation, Sheri. Heidi, you can also add Lite Salt to your e'lyte mix instead of changing. Or, change and still add the Lite Salt. None of the commercial e'lytes, IMHO, have enough K. Susan Young,
Your Pampered Chef Consultant http://www.pamperedchef.biz/GlenndaSueskitchen Your Independent Mary Kay Beauty Consultant Glenndale Grace Farm, Ft Gibson, Oklahoma U.S.A. "Ride on! Rough-shod if need be, smooth-shod if that will do, but ride on! Ride on over all obstacles, and win the race!" - Charles Dickens (1812-1870) |
--- On Sun, 5/20/12, Sheri Devouassoux <sheridev...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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heidi larson
May 21, 2012, 11:08:02 AM5/21/12
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| Thank you Bonnie - I did lime my pasture this spring - your comments made me remember it! I am certain the hay I've got was not limed - but thanks for making me remember what I'd done to my own pasture! May be a clue that I shouldn't overlook! |
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
| --- On Mon, 5/21/12, Bonnie <bon...@b4boots.com> wrote: |
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heidi larson
May 21, 2012, 11:10:19 AM5/21/12
to ride...@endurance.net
| Thank you Susan - someone else suggested adding additional Calcium as well since the commercial products mostly don't have enough. The Lyte Ryte has the most I think and I used it once during the day but he may have spit some out - it's very thick and he can hold it longer than he can the more liquid Dynaspark. He used to be hard to e-lyte and the Dynaspark fixed that for us - but maybe it's just not the right formula for him. |
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
| --- On Mon, 5/21/12, Susan <glen...@yahoo.com> wrote: |
Kathy Sherman
May 21, 2012, 12:44:31 PM5/21/12
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I just have a question about the "extra" vit E/selenium you gave, not
that it had anything to do with thumping, but my understanding was
that selenium takes a few months to build up, so would feeding "extra"
before a ride have any benefit? or is it just wasting the "extra".
And can someone tell me how to spot thumping? My horse thumped at the
end of his 2nd 50, but I just couldn't see what the vet was telling me
was the thumping, but I might have been suffering from distance and
heat induced brain malfunction (:>)
Kathy
that it had anything to do with thumping, but my understanding was
that selenium takes a few months to build up, so would feeding "extra"
before a ride have any benefit? or is it just wasting the "extra".
And can someone tell me how to spot thumping? My horse thumped at the
end of his 2nd 50, but I just couldn't see what the vet was telling me
was the thumping, but I might have been suffering from distance and
heat induced brain malfunction (:>)
Kathy
Sheri Devouassoux
May 21, 2012, 1:13:04 PM5/21/12
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I had a crabby, muscle sore horse whose attitude improved literally overnight after giving him a dose of Vitamin E/Selenium. That horse had been a pasture potato for months (maybe even a year) because he was too sore to even groom. While it might take months for the selenium to gain peak effect, I have seen first hand (on my horse and others that I have trained) that Vitamin E/Selenium can have an almost immediate effect.
I also give a dose of Vitamin E/Selenium (Myo Guard--also has magnesium) along with my electrolytes at every single vet check. For years. This was advised to me years ago by a very well-known equine nutritionist.
Just my experience.
Sheri Devouassoux
heidi larson
May 21, 2012, 1:46:26 PM5/21/12
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| I feed the sel/vit e year round - in our case you could see the flutter in the flank area just in front of the hip bone, it was obvious - however it wasn't going with the HR - his HR was in the upper 40's and the flutter/thump was quite a bit faster. |
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
| --- On Mon, 5/21/12, Kathy Sherman <sherm...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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Kathy Sherman
May 21, 2012, 2:16:21 PM5/21/12
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This is good to know. I wonder if I should start including se in his
syringe of electrolyes at a rides. He never eats a wet mash at rides,
won't touch them at all unless we are home, so, he never gets se at
rides or even the day before when we're trailering.
Kathy
On May 21, 10:13 am, Sheri Devouassoux <sheridevouass...@gmail.com>
wrote:
syringe of electrolyes at a rides. He never eats a wet mash at rides,
won't touch them at all unless we are home, so, he never gets se at
rides or even the day before when we're trailering.
Kathy
On May 21, 10:13 am, Sheri Devouassoux <sheridevouass...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Truman Prevatt
May 21, 2012, 6:32:10 PM5/21/12
to ride...@endurance.net
If I am not wrong, it been a while since I though about this, but a the problem might not be the amount of Ca++ but the form the Ca is in. If the electrolytes are imbalanced, then Ca can be bound and not available in the ionic form. It is ionic Ca that is important since it is the electrolyte. It doesn't matter how much Ca is there if it is bound. From what I remember, a depletion of potassium ions (K+) can lead to calcium bounding. So while the problem may be calcium, it could be cause by a potassium depletion.
I think with electrolytes is maintaining the proper balance of ionic electrolytes.
Truman
---
"Crash programs fail because they are based on the theory that, with nine women pregnant, you can get a baby a month. " Wernher von Braun
Karen Standefer
May 21, 2012, 7:02:45 PM5/21/12
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Here's a pretty good layman's explanation of Thumps:
http://stories.endurance.net/1998/01/thumps-synchronous-diaphragmatic.html
http://stories.endurance.net/1998/01/thumps-synchronous-diaphragmatic.html
Truman
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Kathy Sherman
May 21, 2012, 8:43:20 PM5/21/12
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All good explanations. One I read earlier today suggested that protein
binds up the calcium in dogs. I wonder if too much protein is ever an
issue with horses. It looks clear that thumping horses should be
pulled, but what if they stop thumping before their out time? Would
that be handled similar to improved gut sounds after eating and
resting, and the horse be allowed to go on? Just wondering.
Kathy
On May 21, 4:02 pm, Karen Standefer <kstande...@apbb.net> wrote:
> Here's a pretty good layman's explanation of Thumps:
>
> http://stories.endurance.net/1998/01/thumps-synchronous-diaphragmatic...
binds up the calcium in dogs. I wonder if too much protein is ever an
issue with horses. It looks clear that thumping horses should be
pulled, but what if they stop thumping before their out time? Would
that be handled similar to improved gut sounds after eating and
resting, and the horse be allowed to go on? Just wondering.
Kathy
On May 21, 4:02 pm, Karen Standefer <kstande...@apbb.net> wrote:
> Here's a pretty good layman's explanation of Thumps:
>
Katrina Mosshammer
May 21, 2012, 8:58:41 PM5/21/12
to ridecamp at Endurance.Net
Yes I have seen a horse come in with thumps and was given extra calcium and
rechecked at the end of the hour hold and was fine and cleared to go on.
FWIW, The horse looked fine afterwards and once they tweaked his elytes
never had the issue again.
Katrina Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity
killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It
requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has
his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
rechecked at the end of the hour hold and was fine and cleared to go on.
FWIW, The horse looked fine afterwards and once they tweaked his elytes
never had the issue again.
Katrina Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity
killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It
requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has
his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
heidi larson
May 21, 2012, 10:46:07 PM5/21/12
to ride...@endurance.net
| Good question Kathy - a girl who was crewing at this ride said a vet let her go on when her horse quit thumping during her hold. I wasn't going to even ask - I don't argue with vets! |
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
| --- On Tue, 5/22/12, Kathy Sherman <sherm...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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heidi larson
May 21, 2012, 10:46:54 PM5/21/12
to ride...@endurance.net
| Truman - somehow I never saw your original posting - can you resend directly to me? Thank you! |
. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson |
| --- On Tue, 5/22/12, Karen Standefer <kstan...@apbb.net> wrote: |
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Karen Standefer
May 22, 2012, 11:32:09 AM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
I think it would be dangerous to assume that lessening protein intake would have any effect on the amount of calcium that is bound/unbound. It does suggest that taking in too much calcium prior to the stressor would bind too much calcium and cause it to be unavailable when the horse needs it. I would imagine that supplementing extra mag and potassium would be advantageous to a horse who has these issues. The extra potassium would offset the salt that builds up and the magnesium would allow the calcium to become unbound and more available.
On Monday 21/05/2012 at 5:43 pm, Kathy Sherman wrote:
All good explanations. One I read earlier today suggested that protein
binds up the calcium in dogs. I wonder if too much protein is ever an
issue with horses. It looks clear that thumping horses should be
pulled, but what if they stop thumping before their out time? Would
that be handled similar to improved gut sounds after eating and
resting, and the horse be allowed to go on? Just wondering.
Kathy
On May 21, 4:02 pm, Karen Standefer <kstande...@apbb.net> wrote:
Here's a pretty good layman's explanation of Thumps:
Karen Standefer
May 22, 2012, 11:34:05 AM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
It's also suggested, however, that calcium supplementation (in the
form of alfalfa) could worsen the problem. So, while they give
calcium as a therapy, I believe that extra calcium prior to the
stressor would cause more calcium to be bound and not available. I
think the secret to horses like this is giving extra potassium and
magnesium to allow more calcium to be available during the
competition.
On Monday 21/05/2012 at 6:00 pm, Katrina Mosshammer wrote:
> Yes I have seen a horse come in with thumps and was given extra
> calcium and rechecked at the end of the hour hold and was fine and
> cleared to go on. FWIW, The horse looked fine afterwards and once they
> tweaked his elytes never had the issue again.
>
> Katrina Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)
>
> "Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that
> curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." -
> Arnold Edinborough
>
> "A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider.
> It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider
> who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." -
> Julie Suhr
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Sherman
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 7:43 PM
> To: ridecamp at Endurance.Net
> Subject: [RC] Re: Thumps
>
form of alfalfa) could worsen the problem. So, while they give
calcium as a therapy, I believe that extra calcium prior to the
stressor would cause more calcium to be bound and not available. I
think the secret to horses like this is giving extra potassium and
magnesium to allow more calcium to be available during the
competition.
On Monday 21/05/2012 at 6:00 pm, Katrina Mosshammer wrote:
> Yes I have seen a horse come in with thumps and was given extra
> calcium and rechecked at the end of the hour hold and was fine and
> cleared to go on. FWIW, The horse looked fine afterwards and once they
> tweaked his elytes never had the issue again.
>
> Katrina Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)
>
> "Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that
> curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." -
> Arnold Edinborough
>
> "A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider.
> It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider
> who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." -
> Julie Suhr
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Sherman
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 7:43 PM
> To: ridecamp at Endurance.Net
> Subject: [RC] Re: Thumps
>
Kathy Mayeda
May 22, 2012, 11:42:46 AM5/22/12
to kstan...@apbb.net, ride...@endurance.net
Advice I was given by ride vet is to exclude alfalfa (with it's extra calcium) for regular feeding, but add it prior to ride. Horse's body will learn to excrete calcium with excess, so must get horse's body used to utilizing the calcium. Adding it prior to ride makes it available for use during the ride. You might be right about the potassium and magnesium, but I wasn't told this.
--
Wind Horse Integrative Bodywork
Craniosacral Therapy for Human and Equine
Kathy Lynn Mayeda, CMT
3880 S. Bascom Avenue, #117
San Jose, CA 95124
(650) 318-1260
http://www.kathymayeda.com/
K.
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Wind Horse Integrative Bodywork
Craniosacral Therapy for Human and Equine
Kathy Lynn Mayeda, CMT
3880 S. Bascom Avenue, #117
San Jose, CA 95124
(650) 318-1260
http://www.kathymayeda.com/
heidi larson
May 22, 2012, 11:46:01 AM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
| That's what I was told also Kathy - lay off of it on a daily basis but let him have as much as he wants the day before and day of a ride. heidi larson --- On Tue, 5/22/12, Kathy Mayeda <klma...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
|
Katrina Mosshammer
May 22, 2012, 11:50:23 AM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
Our horses don’t get any alfalfa hay at home (too dang expensive 
); they just get maybe a
half of cup of alfalfa pellets in their daily ration. On ride days we will give
alfalfa hay (if we have any) and extra calcium with their elytes.
); they just get maybe a
half of cup of alfalfa pellets in their daily ration. On ride days we will give
alfalfa hay (if we have any) and extra calcium with their elytes.Katrina
Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
Katrina Mosshammer
May 22, 2012, 12:05:27 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
We are lucky, we have a good place to get nice round bales.
Katrina
Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough
"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr
--
Lynne Glazer
May 22, 2012, 12:26:44 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
Ordering hay today--yesterday's feed store prices:
Bermuda (grass) hay: 18.75 (100+ lb bales)
Alfalfa 17.25 (115 lbs or so)
This is the first year the Bermuda has met and exceeded the alfalfa for a sustained period.
Lynne
On May 22, 2012, at 8:50 AM, Katrina Mosshammer wrote:
Our horses don’t get any alfalfa hay at home (too dang expensive <wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png> ); they just get maybe a half of cup of alfalfa pellets in their daily ration. On ride days we will give alfalfa hay (if we have any) and extra calcium with their elytes.
D'Arcy L. Demianoff-Thompson
May 22, 2012, 12:38:30 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net, ride...@endurance.net
That is insane and price gouging at it's best. The only reason these prices are remaining high are because of the decrease in acreage planted.
Sent from my iPhone
--
Carla Richardson
May 22, 2012, 12:53:24 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
I think it's the drought more than the decreased acreage. And they
found out they can charge it and people will still buy it....
Carla
found out they can charge it and people will still buy it....
Carla
D'Arcy L. Demianoff-Thompson
May 22, 2012, 12:59:29 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net, ride...@endurance.net
Carla,
We have not had a drought out here. And we hay irrigation water. All of the hay growers in my area have cut acreage. They are planting rice. Why? Because it pays more.
Sent from my iPhone
We have not had a drought out here. And we hay irrigation water. All of the hay growers in my area have cut acreage. They are planting rice. Why? Because it pays more.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee
May 22, 2012, 1:02:40 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
We had that happen a few years ago and it never went back. A farmer told me that the slower growing and the need for more fertilizer was the reason. Don't know if I buy that but there isn't much choice for those of us who feed bermuda. I did buy some wonderful rye grass hay for $9/bale (100+#), delivered. Alfalfa is running $9/bale here and bermuda hasn't been cut yet. I am sure the feed stores are higher but I buy directly from the farmer.
Lee
"...and God sought to bestow upon man a supreme mark of his blessings, God created the horse. The horse could run faster than the deer, jump higher than the goat, and endure longer than the wolf. Man, being encompassed by elements that sought to destroy him, would have been a slave, had the horse not made him king."
"...and God sought to bestow upon man a supreme mark of his blessings, God created the horse. The horse could run faster than the deer, jump higher than the goat, and endure longer than the wolf. Man, being encompassed by elements that sought to destroy him, would have been a slave, had the horse not made him king."
--
D'Arcy L. Demianoff-Thompson
May 22, 2012, 1:14:43 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net, ride...@endurance.net
The subject has shifted.
Lee, most grass and grain is a once a year cutting. Those farmers whom have read the market shift from alfalfa to grass and grain hays, that grew alfalfa, are making up the profit difference. It is poor planning.
When one studies the sell, loss, and euthanizing of horses, due to the high cost of feed. It does not come of a shock the market will implode on itself.
Sent from my iPhone
Dawn Carrie
May 22, 2012, 1:50:17 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
The drought's effect is nationwide. Just because you haven't had it in your area doesn't mean you are not affected. Here in Texas, the area hardest hit, we had hay being brought in from every corner of the country. That sent everyone else's hay prices up in the areas that were blessed with rain, since your hay was being sent here. I personally saw hay being advertised from as far away as North Dakota, Montana, various midwestern states, Florida, Georgia, Utah (they grow lots of hay???), and yes, California. And of course, many of the states closer to us. And the kinds of grasses showing up was insane. Stuff we'd never heard of here!
We got more rain this spring, and our local hay growers got a good first cutting. We've already got 20 round bales in the barn, and are going to get another 15 or so, as well as another 50+ squares. But the prognosis is for another very dry summer, so we shall see what happens. Last year we fortunately got our round bales before prices went *totally* insane, and then good rounds became non-existent.
Unfortunately, I do think part of the high price situation is that feed stores have found that people *will* pay exhorbinant prices, and I bet it will take a while for prices to return to pre-drought prices there, if they ever do.
Dawn Carrie, Texas (where quality round bales went from $45 to $120+, and then unavailable last year)
Dawn Carrie
May 22, 2012, 1:53:27 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
D'Arcy,
What kinds of grasses do farmers grow out there? Just curious. Most here in Texas grow coastal bermuda. In normal rainfall years they get three cuttings. It's really nice hay, and horses love it. A few grow bahia, but the yield per acre is much lower, although it's hardier and needs less fertilizer than the newer varieties of coastal. Also, some horses don't care for it as much, although our bunch loves it.
Dawn Carrie, Texas
Truman Prevatt
May 22, 2012, 1:55:23 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
Yep,
According the the "droughtmonitor" websit, a large portion of the US is in a sustained drought. That includes most of the intermountain states, the SW including Southern CA and most of the SE.
Truman
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg
According the the "droughtmonitor" websit, a large portion of the US is in a sustained drought. That includes most of the intermountain states, the SW including Southern CA and most of the SE.
Truman
D'Arcy L. Demianoff-Thompson
May 22, 2012, 2:02:26 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net, ride...@endurance.net
Without an increase in production acreage prices will remain the same. I grow my own hay. I live in a high hay production area. I can tell you there are thousands of acres taken out of production and put into rice. There are NO plans to put those acres back into hay of any kind.
One of the largest hay growers in the area is putting 1/3 of his land, that grew hay, into various tree crops (olive and walnut). In order to make the hay supply last the cost will stay high in this area. Alfalfa 16-18.50, grass hays 17.00 and grain hays between 10-14.00.
This is first cutting!
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Truman Prevatt
May 22, 2012, 2:02:54 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
last summer when Texas was bone dry and ranchers were having to sell off their cattle because none could find hay and many did not have the water for them, people were showing up in Florida and buying fields of uncut hay. They give a fixed price and would come, cut it and move it and take all the risk. It really impacted our local hay. One hay farmer told me he got calls from Texas almost every other day wanting to buy hay. He said he did not sell it and screw over his local customers because if he did, and the drought lifted they would have found other suppliers and he would be screwed. However, not all felt that way.
Currently most of FL is in a long term drought condition and the bottom line is predicted to be a dryer than normal summer.
Truman
--
“The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world” - Max Born
“The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world” - Max Born
D'Arcy L. Demianoff-Thompson
May 22, 2012, 2:09:26 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net, ride...@endurance.net
Dawn,
Mostly rye and orchard grass. There is a demand for bermuda but low supply chain. I love bermuda. I am planting my pasture in bermuda. Horses did great, in Merced, CA, for 12 years on bermuda. And it irrigates very well.
My hay field is oat, rye, and alfalfa. Sammy looses weight on it; Astra and Valentina go lame (sugars too high for them; Cejlon picks out the alfalfa and leaves the rest in a pile he shoves to the side; and Valaba's stringhault gets worse.
With oat/barley/wheat all accept Sammy are fine. Sammy does the best on alfalfa pellets with supplements.
Sent from my iPhone
Diane Trefethen
May 22, 2012, 2:09:59 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
On 5/22/2012 9:26 AM, Lynne Glazer wrote:
> Ordering hay today--yesterday's feed store prices:
>
> Bermuda (grass) hay: 18.75 (100+ lb bales)
> Alfalfa 17.25 (115 lbs or so)
>
Just bought a bale of alfalfa this morning. $23.00 in the Cali foothills.
> Ordering hay today--yesterday's feed store prices:
>
> Bermuda (grass) hay: 18.75 (100+ lb bales)
> Alfalfa 17.25 (115 lbs or so)
>
Carla Richardson
May 22, 2012, 2:37:06 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
Hmm, for most grass I would say it's more than once a year cutting,
where are you talking about, D'Arcy? Even around here the farmers
will usually get at least two and usually three cuttings in a "normal"
year. This year they may only get two because of the irrigation water
shortage.
But in Texas I remember 4-5 cuttings a year! Of coastal bermuda grass hay.
Carla
where are you talking about, D'Arcy? Even around here the farmers
will usually get at least two and usually three cuttings in a "normal"
year. This year they may only get two because of the irrigation water
shortage.
But in Texas I remember 4-5 cuttings a year! Of coastal bermuda grass hay.
Carla
Barbara McCrary
May 22, 2012, 3:05:36 PM5/22/12
to tpre...@mindspring.com, ride...@endurance.net
Actually, southern CA has had some nice rains recently, storms that bypassed
the central coast.
Barbara
-----Original Message-----
From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:ridecampre...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Truman Prevatt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:55 AM
To: ride...@endurance.net
the central coast.
Barbara
-----Original Message-----
From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:ridecampre...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Truman Prevatt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:55 AM
To: ride...@endurance.net
Karen Cox
May 22, 2012, 3:10:13 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
Irrigated fields here in south central Montana get 2 cuttings. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AERC # M39603
www.allthingsendurance.com
AERC # M39603
www.allthingsendurance.com
D'Arcy L. Demianoff-Thompson
May 22, 2012, 3:23:51 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
Most of our grass and grain fields are 'cover' crops with alfalfa planted over for second cutting. Ci lnow there are a lot of other regions that do stiff differently.
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Lynne Glazer
May 22, 2012, 4:22:08 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
I have to correct my hay prices--the feed store got new loads in for our delivery, so the Bermuda went from $18.75 to 18, and the alfalfa from $17.25 to $17. Hurrah.
Lynne
Lynne
Debbie Parsons
May 22, 2012, 4:34:40 PM5/22/12
to ride...@endurance.net
Don't spend that savings all in one place now!
Alfalfa brought to FL is about $22 for a 70 pound bale. Beautiful three tie monster bales of orchard grass is $37. Same stuff I paid $12.50 for two years ago at Tevis. I'm thankful most of my herd does fine with the local hay but even that has gone up to about $7.50 for a 60 pound bale.
Debbie
Alfalfa brought to FL is about $22 for a 70 pound bale. Beautiful three tie monster bales of orchard grass is $37. Same stuff I paid $12.50 for two years ago at Tevis. I'm thankful most of my herd does fine with the local hay but even that has gone up to about $7.50 for a 60 pound bale.
Debbie
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