Sand to mountains and back

[Elyse Carreno]

I wanted to start a discussion about what people think about training in one terrain and racing in another, people's experiences with how horses handle the change in terrains etc. Is speed through deep sand or traveling up inclines but over firm ground comparable?
-Elyse

[Shannon Loomis]

Hello,

I live in West Virginia (aka The Mountain State) and go to Shore to Shore every year for a week in the sand. Personally, I prefer the hills.  I do not race where the sand is deep because we are trying for the whole week, but I do think the mountain horses are better going to sand than the sand horses are going to the mountains.

Shannon

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On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:55 AM, Elyse Carreno <end...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wanted to start a discussion about what people think about training in one terrain and racing in another, people's experiences with how horses handle the change in terrains etc. Is speed through deep sand or traveling up inclines but over firm ground comparable?
-Elyse

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[Debbie Parsons]

I'm in flat central Florida so sand is readily available. My Florida
horse has completed both the Big Horn 100 and Tevis by using the sand.
He didn't fly up the climbs and after about 25 miles decided that
anything with an incline needed to be walked but he got the job done.
My concern was more about concussion than the mountains as I have
almost no concussive surfaces to train on.

I am a back of the pack type rider most times. I've learned not to get
worried when my horse starts putzing uphill as he seems to know what's
best for him. So far, it's worked out well.

The risk of sand is to the soft structures. I see it all the time at
our FL rides when people who aren't familiar with deep sand zoom
along. Muscles, tendons, and ligaments start to complain.

I've heard it said that sand horses can go to mountains OK but
mountain horses can have problems with sand. Using that mindset let me
tackle a couple of tough rides with terrain I could not train for.

Debbie

[Shannon Loomis]

I guess it depends on how deep the sand is! Like I said, we do not race in the sand and I am paranoid about muscle and tendon pulls. The problem I have is that my mtn horses are quite fit and think they can scream through the flat sand and we have to hold them back because, like I said, I do worry about the soft tissue. Sand horses that come to the mountains are mentally set back a bit, so they may take care of themselves better...

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[Truman Prevatt]

As someone who lives the the FL sand hills and conditions every ride in sand with some hills - my horses live, eat and breath sand.  My experience that it is easy to go to mountains from sand.  Training in sand turns tendons and ligaments into steel cables.  The only problems I have encountered was the first time my horse hit deep mud.  However, the second time that wasn't an issue.  The other issue might be concussion.  If you train in sand you don't get a lot of concussion training.  I address that by doing a little riding on gravel roads to get concussion training.  I've done rides from FL to the VA Mountains and about every state in between in the East.  I've ridden in six of the AERC 9 regions.  While being able to train in all conditions is better, but if you can only train in one I think sand is a good choice.  I've done rides in the Rockies with no problems.  We didn't bust going up hill but we flew going downhill.   Debbie Parsons has done both the Big Horn and Tevis with no problems based on sand training.  

Now I know a lot of people coming to FL rides from areas where they can't train in sand - are concerned with the impacts of sand.  If you horse is not trained for it - it can put a lot of stress on the connective tissue. 

Truman

On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:55 AM, Elyse Carreno wrote:

I wanted to start a discussion about what people think about training in one terrain and racing in another, people's experiences with how horses handle the change in terrains etc. Is speed through deep sand or traveling up inclines but over firm ground comparable?
-Elyse

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[heidi larson]

I mostly train on hard packed gravel roads, some trail, no sand.  My horse does best on other harder surfaces and if he's ever going to stock up, it's when we go to a ride that has sand or deep footing of any kind.  We can go fast on the hard stuff, but when it's deep, I slow him WAY down for his own good. . o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson --- On Thu, 1/26/12, Elyse Carreno <end...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ride...@juno.com]

>>>>I wanted to start a discussion about what people think about training in one terrain and racing in another, people's experiences with how horses handle the change in terrains etc. Is speed through deep sand or traveling up inclines but over firm ground comparable?
-Elyse

 

 

Sand sucks. Literally. It doesn't return any of the spring that firm footing gives to the horse's spring loaded way of going. That said. Training in sand and having to push off hard on the flat can help a horse climb mountains. It does absolutely nothing for the muscles that hold the horse's body back going downhill so sand horses that do mountain rides usually look worst going downhill at the end of a ride.

 

Climbing mountains get the horse's muscles strong enough to handle some sand but doesn't do enough to condition the tendons and ligaments so mountain horses get lamenesses in the tendons and suspensories competing in deep sand...also seems to cause a fair a mount of rear end lameness.

 

That said, a sand horse can overdo it in the mountains and he'll have some pitifully sore downhill muscles but a mountain horse that does too much sand will have a longer term lameness. I've just decided if I can't train in sand I will not compete in it.

 

Angie McGhee

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[Roxanne Ciccone]

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Roxanne Ciccone <runawa...@bellsouth.net>
To: "end...@gmail.com" <end...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [RC] Sand to mountains and back

I live and train/compete in Florida. I train in some deep sand, but I always walk through deep sand until the horses are legged up, then we always canter it. I have taken my horses to the mountains to compete and they do great, almost better than at home.

I have seen many people come down to Florida to ride with horses trained in the mountains and they have lameness issues. Strains,sprains, suspensories,tendons etc. I really beleive that sand is the most difficult, try running in it yourself. My horse Spirit Wind has legs like iron and over 6000 Endurance miles, most of it in the sand in Florida.

The key with sand is to start slow and build up gradually, once the horse is legged up it is much easier for them to canter through the deep stuff, but if in doubt, WALK.

Roxanne

From: Elyse Carreno <end...@gmail.com>
To: ridecamp <Ride...@endurance.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 9:55 AM
Subject: [RC] Sand to mountains and back

-Elyse --

[Diane Trefethen]

On 1/26/2012 7:43 AM, Debbie Parsons wrote:
> My concern was more about concussion than the mountains as I have
> almost no concussive surfaces to train on.

Ah.. yes you do. They're called "roads". Start easy, trotting for maybe a 100
to 200 ft every time you go out. S-L-O-W-L-Y build up to where your horse can
comfortably handle 20 minutes of careful, not balls to the walls, trotting on
pavement. BTW, this is a good thing to do for young horses regardless of where
you live. It helps add layers of bone... at least that's what I was told.
Anyone out there with citations from studies?

[Debbie Parsons]

Roads around here will get you killed! But there are parks with
limerock roads that can be used and I try to do that now more than I
did since I seem to have a thing for hard ground rides ('cause they
usually have mountains which are fun!).

I lived in England many moons ago and was horrified to see people
trotting horses down the paved country lanes. Then I did it myself,
which still horrified me. Now I know it's a good thing to do.

Debbie

[Karen Cox]

I do a LOT of road riding, this includes tar and chip, pavement, packed cinders (old railroad now right of ways), and gravel. Even when I ride trails, they are quite hard (we are in the Rockies). I worked up to it, but have done up to 20 miles on various road surfaces (mostly pavement and tar/chip) and the only thing that has ever caused any trouble to my thin-soled horse is gravel (she only wears boots on front so far). I will often stop for gravel, and now she slows to a walk by herself whenever we have to cross a gravel driveway now, she has me trained :) We do a lot of trotting on hard roads, some cantering but not too much, I try and save that for the softer spots, although it has never seemed to bother her. 

Last year we did the Wyoming Pioneer 50 which is mostly sand but not deep sand, and she was very tired at the end. But it was our first 50, and we did do the first 25 too fast (not realizing, we were having so much fun!). Still, while she was tired and a little sore for a day or 2, she had no injuries. Still, we'll be taking the sand a little easier next time, once we get past the race brain at the start of the ride. 

Not sure about beach sand, but the variations in desert sand are something to watch for. The Wyoming sand was mostly packed fairly hard, but there were a few spots we hit that were much deeper, maybe almost quicksand, where she sort of panicked trying to get out and I thought she might tweak something. That could also be why she was feeling it afterwards. 

I have never ridden on ocean beach sand but have run in it and phew, that is a workout! I guess it would be more consistent (?) but generally harder to deal with and more tiring than the desert sand, especially for a horse that trains on hard surfaces. 

[Truman Prevatt]

Some of the sand you can run into in FL and from what I hear for NJ is deep sugar sand. Sugar sand is extremely find - not the course stuff you find on the West coast beaches. A grain of West
Coast beach sand looks like boulder beside a grain of sugar sand. So there are degrees of sand. Coarse sand packs better and doesn't get as deep. Sugar sand doesn't pack at all and the hoof just keeps going down. About the only way to move at any speed in sugar sand is canter so the horse gets up and out of it.

Truman

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[Sandy Adams]

One thing that has stood us in good stead over the years is - training. We have competed in dressage, jumping and other disciplines. I like to have some calisthenics and dressage on our horses before hey EVER do a distance ride. Not only is it good for them physically, but we have next to no issues of race brain, or the complications that come from a horse who has a tough time controlling him or herself in the first few miles. If someone is getting silly at ANY time but especially at the start or in iffy footing, boy, it just takes a nice shoulder in or alternating half passes to get hold of that tiny little brain. The other advantage is that, as we go down the trail, if we encounter all those rodent holes so proliferate in Cali, or anything else in the trail, a simple leg dropped on one side and any of our horse will half pass right around it. That log in the trail. POOF! Right over it - assuming it isn't one of the sequoias. Sometimes with these very fit horses, all that is left is getting hold of their brain, even if you only need it for a minute. Kind of like a preschooler actually:).

Sandy Adams

Deep Sands Arabians

www.garyadamsbooks.com

[Sandy Adams]

west coast sand DOES pack down - and some of the time, you might find that it is not simple sand but some combination of DG - and THAT stuff, when rained on and packed down is like, well, GRANITE. Very bad for trotting. 

[Shannon Loomis]

What I have found to be worse than sand is the sucking mud that we can get in Ohio and surrounding states.  Sometimes it sneaks up on you and you are in the middle of a quagmire before you know it. Shoes, boots,nothing is safe.  And I have done rides that were glop from start to finish, sliding down the hills to end up in a swamp at the bottom. Give me sand or a gravel road any day over that!

Shannon

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[Debbie Parsons]

Oh mud!  Did a ride several years where the skies opened up 20 mins after the start. 8+ inches of rain fell that day. Was in the 100 that got shortened to about 80 due to the trails. We rode around huge plowed cotton fields. Fetlock deep wet mud. The next day my horse was so body sore I could hardly get him to move. Watching him load into the trailer was painful. I've never had a horse so sore. Next time I'll quit!

Debbie

[Janice Taylor]

My favorite ride is a real goer and we seem to do a lot of rides with a lot of hard surface. He comes up with stress rings after those rides. Doesn't seem to bother him at all, but I really would like to do something to soften the blows to those front feet. I use Hoof Flex twice a week, which actually does seem to help a little, and he gets a hoof supplement in his feed daily. I always pad the front.
I know you barefooters will recommend going that route. And I have tried it. It simply does not work for me.
Any other suggestions?
Janice

[Kathy Sherman]

Boots used to be used over shoes to lessen concussion. Would that be
an option for you?

Kathy

[Bonnie]

Hello Shannon,

OH, I am in Ohio now. I am so sick of the mud this winter. We just
haven't gotten a good freeze. Ground will freeze on the top 2 inches
then we get rain and temps up to the 50's and we are in over the
fetlock mud in less than 24 hours.

I certainly miss living in Arkansas where it could rain a couple
inches and an hour later you could go out do chores and no mud!

There is a CTR ride close to me I have thought of trying but I think
they have cancelled it for the past 2 or 3 years due to the mud ;-)

At least my horses boots stay on in the mud!
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[Bonnie]

Hello Janice,

You have to gradually condition the horse to hard surfaces the same
way you do LSD. You either add distance or speed not both at the same
time and you up the distance or speed very very gradually. I think
boots can help with concussion, but I have also conditioned horses on
hard surfaces that were barefoot. I usually did/do most of my conditioning
on hard packed gravel roads in Arkansas now Ohio. While I think boots
can help with concussion I also think you can do a lot with pads for
shod horses and with barefoot.

With my horses, we use boots and I dont even worry about hard
surfaces, even pavement. We can gait and even canter on pavement,
although I usually yell at my husband for cantering on pavement on general
principle. Typical speeds gaiting are 6 to 10 mph which should be
close to a trotting speeds on pavement. We often do fast gaiting,
canter and even gallop on hard pack gravel roads at speeds anywhere
from 8 to 20 mph.

I would think you would condition for sand that same way, adding just
a little more distance in sand, then adding a little speed but not
increasing distance. I have never had the luxury of conditioning in
sand. The pasture mud conditioning takes place all the time here in
Ohio ;-)

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Best regards,
Bonnie mailto:bon...@b4boots.com
http://www.b4boots.com
check out our blog at http://www.b4boots.com/w

> driveway now, she has me trained We do a lot of trotting on hard

[heidi larson]

I use the ground control plastic horseshoes in front for concussion protection - we're going on about year 7 or 8 for using them - about 95% of our conditioning rides are on hardpacked gravel roads - riding between 30 and 60 miles per week.

. o o o o . o_ \ \____ o_ \_\ . (*)~(*)\_______/ . / \ . \______/ / . \_______/\ /- . o-- /_/ \ / . / \ / / . o o o-- / . / \ . o o heidi larson

--- On Thu, 1/26/12, Janice Taylor <janus...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ride...@juno.com]

>>> The next day my horse was so body sore I could hardly get him to move. Watching him load into the trailer was painful. I've never had a horse so sore. Next time I'll quit!

 

I was in that ride and it's the only one I ever have quit even though I had a sound horse!  What stopped me was when I unsaddled at the check and couldn't clean off a place to put the saddle back on. :-P  I packed up after 40 miles and the vets acted like I'd lost my mind and didn't believe me when I said my horse was fine. They kept checking him over to see if I was hiding something. I loaded up and went home, later thought I'd lost my girth at the ride. Then when I was cleaning the trailer a couple of weeks later I threw out a big red lay dirt clod and when it hit I saw something shiny. It was the buckle of my girth. It looked like a big was of clay but when I busted it up there was my nice mohair girth. :-P  I wondered if I'd done the right thing till I saw how many of the horses that completed that day ended up with lamenesses that put them out for part of the season.

[ride...@juno.com]

>>>>You have to gradually condition the horse to hard surfaces the same
way you do LSD.

In Leonard's book on endurance he discusses just how much they ride on pavement, at a canter with borium on the shoes to avoid slipping (I'm assuming the borium, seems he didn't name it specifically but it was implied). He said they were amused at the WEG when the USA rode in heavy footing on the edge of plowed fields while they had easy going cantering the pavement.

Angie

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[Carla Richardson]

Do those European horses last many miles, cantering and trotting on pavement?  Maybe they can, if they don't do a lot of years and lots of miles.  Or can they stand up to that concussion?

Carla

[Nancy Sluys]

I just had a bad experience in the sand at Gator Run a few weeks ago.
A 13 year mare (Tari) I have been conditioning in the mountains for
over a year and a half went lame at 40 miles from the sand. We were
doing a conservative pace but due to the dry weather the sand was
deeper than the past 2 years I have ridden it so I misjudged the
severity of it. She seemed like she was doing well, her muscles did
not get tired or stiff, her recoveries were great and she did not
feel tired but her tendons just could not handle it and she tweaked
the left rear. I stopped as soon as I felt it and luckily we were only
a mile away from camp. I don't think the tendon strain is too bad
but it sure did set us back. Live and learn , I'm always careful in
sand but I'll probably try and avoid it from now on unless I can do
some training in it ahead of time.

Nancy Sluys