beet pulp during/after a ride

[Susan Garlinghouse, DVM]

Okay, for the life of me I can’t find it, but I thought someone had posted something about their horse acting like they had a touch of gas colic symptoms during or after a ride and was wondering if the beet pulp they were feeding might be a factor.  Anyway, I thought I’d post a few thoughts.

 

As I just posted to Barbara about providing fiber/bulk during the latter half of a ride, beet pulp is a nice choice as an ingredient in a sloppy, soupy mash, either in a beet-pulp-based ration (there are several out there from Purina, LMF, Triple Crown, Pennfield, etc) or just as a commodity (just plain beet pulp pellets of shreds that have been soaked down).  My horse does extremely well on it, and his meal of choice during the second half or post-ride meal is slurping up the gallon or so of “soup” on top of a big bucket of mash after he finishes.  Nothing makes me happier as a vet/owner/rider than seeing my horse snorkeling through mash up to his ears in liquid right after he finishes a ride, especially if he’s going again the next day, as he did this weekend. (And BC’ed, I might add).

 

Anyway, here’s the science as to why and the thing to keep in mind about beet pulp.  I think it was Laurie Lawrence at University of KY, along with then-PhD candidate Laurie Warren published some really cool data in ICEEP around 1998 demonstrating that hay fed in combination with beet pulp contributes to an increased fluid reserve in the hindgut than does hay OR beet pulp alone.  So since that extra fluid reserve is a good thing for endurance horses, that makes both hay and beet pulp a good thing PRIOR to the ride.  It generally takes most fibrous feeds anywhere around 24-48 hours to totally work its way through the GI tract, so what you’ve fed on Thursday and Friday is what the horse is drawing on on Saturday.

 

We don’t have any studies that directly correlate timing of soluble fibers to hydration if fed *during* the ride, but it makes sense that if endurance horses are usually going to be dehydrated to one extent of another, it behooves us to get all the fluid into them we can in any way, shape or form.  Even more so given that saliva production is adversely affected pretty early on (I can find the reference for that pretty easily if anyone wants it), so wet feed is preferable over dry feeds whenever possible.

 

Okay, so here’s the thing about beet pulp.  The fiber in BP is largely soluble fiber, mostly in the form of pectin.  That’s in comparison to fibers like lignin in hay that are insoluble, and other semi-digestible fibers like cellulose, hemicellulose, etc.  Soluble fiber is highly digestible in horses and easily fermented in the cecum and hindgut.  There are various products of microbial fermentation, including volatile fatty acids used as an energy source, some B vitamins, and---wait for it---gas.  It’s perfectly normal, that’s just how digestion works in herbivores that utilize microbial fermentation.  Horses produce a lot of it, and what they produce isn’t even close to the amount of methane cows, sheep and goats produce.

 

So now imagine that you have a horse that’s eating a big bucket of beet pulp mash at lunch and then goes back out to do another 25 miles or whatever he’s doing that day.  A sloppy mash actually sluices through the stomach, through the small intestine and into the cecum fairly quickly, it’s likely to arrive and start fermenting within an hour or two.  All the little cooties in the cecum are doing their thing and producing volatile fatty acids and also some gas.  Normally that gas just moves on downstream and out.  But if your horse is just a little dehydrated, or maybe working just a little harder than he really is conditioned for, or it’s a really hot day and maybe he’s not drinking so well, then the gut motility is likely to be compromised.  Maybe there’s some drier than normal poop blocking things up, so that pocket of gas isn’t moving downward like it normally would, it sits there in the caudal bowel, causes a gas bubble and there you have it, some spasmodic colic until that bubble makes its’ way outside.

 

So does all that disqualify beet pulp (or any other of the soluble fibers, like soybean hulls) as a feed for endurance horses?  Nope, it’s still good stuff.  However, it might disqualify it as a feed actually DURING the ride if someone has those sort of specific symptoms.  I would probably just stick with hay, still wet if possible, or if you wanted to feed a mash, make it something that’s forage based, like totally soaked down hay pellets.

 

And whenever you can get, good fresh green grass is still magical stuff in my book.

 

Hope this is useful to whoever asked the question in the first place, sorry I couldn’t find the original post.  I can provide further explanation if needed, and yes, journal citations to any of the major points as well.

 

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM, MSc

[Teena Padilla]

Susan 

If a horse does have those symptom's during a ride, when should the beet pulp be discontinued (day before , day of ride ect) and doesn't alfalfa create gas? 

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[western]

I believe Susan said ..."There are various products of microbial fermentation, including volatile fatty acids used as an energy source, some B vitamins, and---wait for it---gas. It’s perfectly normal, that’s just how digestion works in herbivores that utilize microbial fermentation. Horses produce a lot of it, and what they produce isn’t even close to the amount of methane cows, sheep and goats produce..."

W.

Sent from my iPhone

[Diane Trefethen]

There are many "facts" that boggle the mind and separating the ones that are
true from those which are not true can be difficult, particularly when the
rationale behind those "facts" requires an advanced education to be understood.
Thus when we want to verify all but the simplest of scientific claims, the
majority of us are forced to rely on "experts." There are many institutions of
higher learning, individuals famous for important discoveries, and private
foundations dedicated to scientific research that can be counted on to render
relatively unbiased opinions. However, there is an even larger number of
individuals, institutions and businesses that purport to reveal truths who
unfortunately have an agenda so there are some very important points for us lay
folks to consider when trying to decide if we are being conned.

1) As we read their claims, are our emotions aroused?
If the answer is yes, that is a red flag. It means that the claims contain
"loaded" words and phrases that are designed to upset us. We all know that
emotions are the enemy of reason. When you are in love or angry or afraid, your
ability to think clearly is compromised. Those who would deceive us often rely
on our first being rendered unable to think dispassionately. They may paint
their ideas as warm and fulfilling or they may try to scare us with predictions
of dire consequences if we fail to heed their warnings. They may appeal to our
sense of injustice or label their opponents as greedy power seekers. None of
these ploys speaks to the validity of the claims. They only serve to cloud our
judgment with emotion. If the answer is no, the arguments have been presented
without attempting to push our emotional buttons. When people want you to judge
their ideas on their own merits, the last thing they want is for your judgment
to be impaired. They want you to understand what they are saying and be able to
either form a rational opinion or ask logical questions.

2) Will they make money if their claims are believed?
If the answer is yes, this is another red flag. It does not mean they are lying;
it means they have a strong MOTIVE to lie. If the answer is no, the profit
motive is removed from the equation and their claims are less likely to be false.

3) Are unfamiliar or extreme claims supported with citations?
A yes here shows us where these claims originated. We can "go to the source" and
verify for ourselves that the information is reliable. We can also decide
whether the source itself is reliable. A no does not mean that the claims are
false but it points to the possibility that there IS no source, that the ideas
are completely original. This is fine, AS LONG AS THE IDEAS ARE LABELED AS THE
AUTHOR'S CONCLUSIONS. If they are labeled as "facts," they need to be annotated.

4) Are there any portions of the arguments that are misleading?
If yes, yet another red flag. One common ploy is to mix a known fact with a
conjecture. This lends credence to the conjecture by association. The author
then proceeds as if BOTH the fact and the conjecture are true. Another ploy is
to use acronyms or names that sound authoritative or which mimic well-known
reliable institutions but which have no real standing. For instance, the
American Institute for Autism Research is nonexistent but the Autism Research
Institute is real. A third ploy is to state a fact but frame it in a way which
implies that the argument is true. For instance, suppose a disgruntled ex-wife
claimed, "My former husband and his new wife are frequently involved in fights
and their violent behavior is a threat to the safety of our children. Last year,
police vehicles were seen in front of their home on over 20 separate occasions."
The last claim implies that a police presence was often required at the ex's
home due to violent behavior. However, the fact that her ex is the town Police
Commissioner just might have something to do with the frequency of marked police
cars outside his home.

4) Are facts presented with a value judgment attached?
If I write an article in which I want to show the amount of a certain substance
found in my product is not harmful and in the introduction I claim, "There is
only 1/2 oz per serving," I am suggesting that 1/2 oz/serving isn't very much,
an opinion. Then later in the article I can state "each serving contains very
little" and that will jibe with what the reader already "knows." However, if I
start with "There is 1/2 oz per serving," now there is no opinion, no value
judgment, so when I later say "each serving contains very little," the reader is
far less likely to accept this statement without question.

[Roger Ward]

Diane

Your post is both timely and very well put.  You have done a service for all by posting these well considered thoughts.

Roger Ward

farrier

Acampo, CA

On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 4:11:56 PM UTC-7, Diane Trefethen wrote:

There are many "facts" that boggle the mind and separating the ones that are
true from those which are not true can be difficult, particularly when the
rationale behind those "facts" requires an advanced education to be understood.

T.....................

[jksi...@mts.net]

While I have you talking about beet pulp digestion...

I have a hard keeper that I feed beet pulp to when in work. I was told I shouldn't mix his feed concentrates into the beet pulp mash, as beet pulp goes through the system faster. Because it was a mix, the beet pulp would "pull" the feed through faster than is needed to get all the nutrients out of the feed.

Did how I state that make any sense? lol

Is this true? Do certain foods actually travel through at different rates?

I want to start his LD career this year (or next if spring never comes lol), so I really need to get BP in his diet! He will definitely be needing it at rides!

Jen

[KSherman]

Since beet pulp is used as a base for some concentrated foods, I don't think it's likely that beet pulp will pull calories or nutrition thru the digestive system and cause any deficit. I did read some remark to this effect, even more dramatic, saying that feeding beet pulp would cause your horse to starve as it was indigestible fiber and just caused all nutritional value of feeds to be rushed thru the digestive system. It's simply not true. If that were the case endurance horses would mostly all be racks of skeletons by now (:>) Most endurance horses get a mash of beet pulp along with their concentrates. There was a message addressing this issue not too long ago. I'll see if I can find it. 

Kathy

[Patricia Clark]

Does anyone else have trouble with excessive gas in your horses when feeding beet pulp? I have one gelding that just can't deal with it so he gets alfalfa at rides. If I feed beet pulp he will almost have gas colic episodes. I suppose they are like people and tolerate different foods.

Patricia

--

[Susan Garlinghouse, DVM]

>While I have you talking about beet pulp digestion...
>
>I have a hard keeper that I feed beet pulp to when in work. I was told I
shouldn't mix his feed concentrates into the beet pulp mash, as beet pulp
>goes through the system faster. Because it was a mix, the beet pulp would
"pull" the feed through faster than is needed to get all the nutrients >out
of the feed.
>
>Did how I state that make any sense? lol
>
>Is this true? Do certain foods actually travel through at different rates?

Well, not really in the context you're describing, and certainly not to the
extent that you can't mix beet pulp with other concentrates---after all, the
commercial rations that are beet-pulp based do just that, and those are
highly digestible.

I guess the best analogy I can think of right this minute is that the equine
GI tract (and to differing extents, other species as well) is sort of like a
series of sieves, where everything gets dumped into the top level, some of
it 'shakes' out right off the bat, and other stuff dribbles down more slowly
after getting some more processing. As the food goes through each layer of
sieves, more 'particles' get retained and absorbed, and whatever is left
keeps going downstream to the next layer until it's all been processed.

So let's say that you just fed your horse a really sloppy mash made up of
some soaked beet pulp, some whole corn and a splash of vegetable oil. Let's
say there was also some long-stem hay that was eaten at the same time. All
of it arrives in the stomach more or less at the same time. The first thing
the stomach does is releases assorted gastric juices to start breaking down
proteins into component amino acids, start the initial breakdown of some of
the carbohydrates, and to get the entire meal to an appropriate sloppiness
by the secretion of these gastric juices. Gastric emptying is actually
based more on osmolarity, which is a measurement of concentration of certain
particles, but the idea of "sloppiness" will suffice for this discussion.
The gastric muscles churn things back and forth, get it all mixed up, and
the more liquidy parts get squeezed down through the muscular outflow
portion of the stomach called the pylorus. If there's parts of the meal
that don't need much breakdown, like the beet pulp, concentrates and oil,
then that, along with its water content, will exit the stomach in a fairly
short amount of time. The fibrous portion of the hay is going to stay in
the stomach and get churned around for awhile longer before it gets squeezed
downstream. So some foods are going to potentially stay in the stomach
longer before heading downstream, depending on what they are, how dry or wet
they, how fibrous, it's fat content and so on.

So now we're downstream of the stomach in the small intestine, where other
digestive juices, bile, assorted enzymes and bicarb from the pancreas to
neutralize the stomach acids all get added in. Think of this portion of the
GI tract kind of like a processing conveyer belt---the intestine is lined
with different types of specialized cells that pick out whatever individual
molecules they're programmed to grab as they go past---electrolytes and
minerals, water, vitamins, glucose, amino acids and fats, etc. It doesn't
process structural carbohydrates at this point, that happens later, so all
the fiber just goes sailing on past. This can all be passive absorption or
an active process, but suffice it to say that different cells and tissues
absorb different nutrients along the way in fairly specialized ways. There
are some conditions that will move ingesta faster or slower through this
portion of the GI tract, but mostly it just sort of chugs along at a fairly
consistent pace. The cells looking to grab, say, the fats in the vegetable
oil, aren't going to be affected by a bunch of fiber from the beet pulp
going by because they aren't interested in anything other than the fat
molecules. The rate at which it's traveling isn't really affected by how
sloppy or dry things were as fed, because the stomach and proximal small
intestine have already done a pretty good job of adjusting it so all the
ingesta is about the same sloppiness at this point. It doesn't really
matter whether that sloppiness came along with the original meal, or was
added in in the form of gastric juices in the stomach. It's all the same by
the time it gets to the small intestine.

What *can* affect feed efficiency is if the individual meal provides more of
a single type of nutrient than the small intestine can handle at one time.
Say, you fed about five pounds of corn in this meal, which is more starch
than the small intestine can handle at one time. It won't slow down
motility to get a better opportunity at handling it all, the extra corn and
starch will just keep going down the conveyer belt and gets dumped into the
cecum, where all the little microbial cooties start fermenting the fiber and
, if given the opportunity, excess starch that didn't get grabbed off in the
small intestine. That can be an issue because fermenting excess starch in
the cecum changes the microbial population, the pH of the hindgut and its
efficiency at digesting other fibers. But that's another subject entirely.

So what I'm finally getting around to saying is that in the absence of
mostly pathologic factors that would affect small intestinal motility, nope,
the small intestine kinda just chugs along at its own pace without a huge
variation, regardless of what's in the intestines at the time. If it's a
sloppier beet pulp mash, then it's going to slurp out the excess water into
circulation (a good thing in endurance horses). If it's a dryer meal, like
straight concentrates, then it would have added liquid back in from
circulation until its back to being the same level as sloppiness it likes.
That can be a bad thing if the horse is already dehydrated and now you're
pulling more water from blood volume to service the digestive tract.

You probably have blood running from your ears at this point, so let me know
if this helped explain things or just hopelessly confused you. The really
short answer is....nah, go ahead and feed beet pulp along with the
concentrates. :-)

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 4/25/2013 12:04 PM, Jen wrote:
> hard keeper that I feed beet pulp to when in work.

I use beet pulp as a vehicle to feed fat. Beet pulp will absorb a
remarkable amount of oil then you add water and let swell. Horses eat
the mix readily.

Ed
--
Ed & Wendy Hauser 5729 175th Avenue Becker, MN 55308 Ed- (406) 381-5527
Wendy- (406) 544-2926

[magnumsmom]

Yes.  My little Blue horse develops gassy colic if I feed
him beet pulp. I talked to Susan via email and tried slowly
introducing it a little at a time for a while, and that worked...
but only until the next batch was a little different. 

So I don't feed him beet pulp. 

BUT, he's absolutely fine eating Ultium. He loves Ultium, of
course... except at a ride. Then he doesn't want any at all.
I figure it's "eating too much chocolate cake" syndrome. 

:)  :)  :)  - Kathy


*****************

[Susan Garlinghouse, DVM]

Yeah, some horses are just like that, not unlike people that just can’t handle certain foods.  Sometimes re-introducing it slowly helps, sometimes they still just can’t do that particular feed (I’m like that with ice cream, alas).  There might be something different about processing that makes one of the commercial rations okay while the commodity beet pulp isn’t, but if they aren’t happy eating it, then probably a good idea not to push the issue.

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM

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[Truman Prevatt]

If my wife eats a slice of tomato she will have a migraine headache the next morning.  However, she can eat pizza with no problem.  There is something that is changed by cooking the tomato into a paste/sauce.  

Ultium is an extruded feed and I expect that something in the extortion process which requires high temp cooking changes the ingredients.  If Ultium works and beet pulp doesn't - use Ultium.  

On Apr 25, 2013, at 6:53 PM, "Susan Garlinghouse, DVM" <docgarl...@roadrunner.com> wrote:

Yeah, some horses are just like that, not unlike people that just can’t handle certain foods.  Sometimes re-introducing it slowly helps, sometimes they still just can’t do that particular feed (I’m like that with ice cream, alas).  There might be something different about processing that makes one of the commercial rations okay while the commodity beet pulp isn’t, but if they aren’t happy eating it, then probably a good idea not to push the issue.

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM

 

“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."  Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

[jksi...@mts.net]

Susan, how do you find time for your practise or riding with all the questions we ask you ?! Lol

No, my ears are NOT bleeding. I read every word (understood most of it by cudgeling my brain for year 2 animal systems from a decade ago). Appreciate you taking the time to explain!

I was pretty sure of the answer, but it was just my gut response to being told that; I could not think of any facts to back me up.

[jksi...@mts.net]

Great idea! Should I start his oil in advance of going into work? Assume it takes a while to build up how much to give them. How much do you feed?

When he is in work, Red gets:
1.5 lbs (dry weight) beet pulp
1.5 lbs Gro N Win
1.5 lbs Cadence Ultra

In winter he gets 0.5 lbs ground flax on top of the BP and Gro N Win to keep weight on. (Wow, you mean Tekes were not meant to live in a -30°C environment?!)

Thanks, Jen

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 4/26/2013 8:53 AM, jksi...@mts.net wrote:
> How much do you feed?

Let's see 3 gal shreds with 4 pints oil, 3 gal water all in a 5 gal
bucket. Currently, 2qt/horse per feeding. In the past I have fed much
more. It just depends on how many calories Dobbin needs.

Yes, I do ramp up the oil over a month or so.

By the way, at Susan G's advice I delete the oil just before and during
a ride. High fat slows emptying of the stomach. (that's apparently why
greasy hamburgers are much more satisfying than a salad.)

ED

[chi...@aol.com]

Susan needs to write a book!  I am constantly referring people to her site, but would love to have a  book to give!

Susan, how do you find time for your practise or riding with all the questions 
we ask you ?! Lol

No, my ears are NOT bleeding. I read every word (understood most of it by 
cudgeling my brain for year 2 animal systems from a decade ago). Appreciate you 
taking the time to explain!

I was pretty sure of the answer, but it was just my gut response to being told 
that; I could not think of any facts to back me up. 

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[KSherman]

Susan, I really appreciate your contributions here and I especially love it when you put scientific "stuff" into terms I can understand and visualize. Your description of the digestive process is great!

Thanks, Kathy

[Shannon Chastain]

Wonder if Susan would mind of someone went into the archives got all her emails and put them in a database????

 

Shannon Chastain
Awesome Haily the Arab

And her mini Lil Max

Elway the Rottie

Tinkerbelle Queen of the Castle Yorkie

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle

http://hailyandshannon.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

From: chi...@aol.com [mailto:chi...@aol.com]

Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:36 PM
To: ride...@endurance.net