donkey

[Lisa Salas]

I had to take my donk b donks to the hospital to have their deformed hooves trimmed. They were heavily sedated but one just fights drugs like the hulk! So the farrier, who seemed to know his job, suggested twisting her ear at the base. I said no. He tried to assure me that this was like an acupressure point, and made them relax to which I replied, "or maybe it hurts like hell and they can't move?" 

I know people tried telling me about that with horses which I never believed but I really don't know that much about donkeys. I took an acupressure class with Dr. Chin ? from UF and we were told the pressure points were at the tips of the ears. Also, acupressure is never twisting, only pressure. 'Cause that's what is in the word. 

So if some donkey experts could chime in I would appreciate it. He is an excellent farrier from what I could see and the hospital uses him in surgeries, but I am not keen on twisting my donks ears. 

I know it is not endurance related but you are my horse people. 

Lisa Salas, the odd farm

[SMW]

I cannot tell you the science behind it but I will say the result of twisting an ear is the same as applying a twitch, endorphins are released.  Simply folding back a handful of neck skin works the same way.  The animal freezes but does not learn anything other then not wanting anyone near their ear/nose.  I do not blame you for not wanting to inflict pain just to get feet done.  Yet I have been the one crawling under a lot of very unhappy equines including donkeys and can understand the farrier just wanting to get the job done in as safe and fast of a way possible.

The worse one I did was a mini donkey who was so pissed he threw himself down onto the ground and squealed like a pig...... I swear he was insulted when I laughed at him. 

Were you able to get suggestions on training so these guys do not need to go through the trauma of sedation and fighting again?

Sharon

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[Susan Garlinghouse]

Amongst other things, I'm also a post-DVM veterinary acupuncturist (lots and lots and lots of extra training).  There *are* acupuncture points at the base of the ear (mostly in the deep little depression right in front of the base), but twisting the ear isn't how you access those points, and even if you did, those aren't sedation or pain-relieving points, at least not for the ear that someone is twisting.  You're correct that most of the most easily accessible points are at the tip of the ear, but twisting won't do anything good for those, either.

So I'm going with "hurts like hell" theory myself, and IMO, the problem is just going to get worse if you verify her fears by twisting the hell out of her ears when she's trying to tell you she's uncomfortable with the situation in general.

Whenever I have to sedate donkeys or mules, I usually start with twice the dose I would give an equivalently-sized horse and go from there.  It takes a LOT of sedation even when they're little guys.  In some cases for the ones that are consciously really fighting the sedation, I just go straight to the bonus round and put them under a brief general anesthesia with ketamine and valium to get it done with.  The farrier has about fifteen minutes or so to get things done while they're on the ground, and then they wake up nice and easy and are a lot less traumatized.  

Good luck,

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM

Sent from my iPad

[Merri Melde]

I also go with the "Hurts Like Hell" theory. Any horse I have ever twisted an ear, which have been very few horses and long ago, and they were being very bad, they don't act like endorphins are released. they act like it hurts. I certainly wouldn't do it with a donkey and particularly not a mule, because I was told that you definitely don't want to hurt a mule's ears. (Because it HURTS! and because they'll remember and get you back later.)

In lieu of a spanking when I was little, I once got my ear grabbed and twisted once when I was  being bad. it hurt like hell and I never did it again.

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www.endurance.net/merri
www.TheEquestrianVagabond.com

[Karen Everhart]

Lisa if you are going to twitch, use the lip.  Apply it for 3 min before doing any procedure. Complete the procedure and release the twitch slowly and rub the lip then offer a treat.

However, it might be worth the effort to try one or both of the following which have worked well with the somewhat "feral" donkeys and mules we have had here at the rescue:

Use a soft cotton lead rope to wrap twice around the pastern of the donkey.  Be sure that the initial exposure activity involves someone who can hold onto the rope as the donks protest.  Don't try to stop their movement.  Instead, let the donk move around the handler as much as needed to decide to stop moving.  Remove the rope.  Reward for stopping.  Pretty quickly our donks/mules became happy with having their feet restrained with the rope with no fight, no sedation, no injury.

Another possibility is to use a piece of duct tape placed vertically down the donks nose, hanging off the end of the nostril.  We tried this with one of our hardest headed donks just before she was adopted last month and she was great.

Neither procedure requires punitive actions on the part of the handler.

Having handled a number of these smart Equids we have had to work smarter not harder.

Karen Everhart MEd

316-648-5082

Executive director; co-founder

Rainbow Meadows Equine Rescue and Retirement, Inc.

Rainbowmeadowsranch.com

[Susan Garlinghouse]

And----those same acupuncture points exist in the human ear as well in analogous locations.  So I'd suggest grabbing the farrier's ear, twist the hell out of it for a couple of minutes and ask if that made him feel all sleepy and wonderful, or if he instead wanted to backhand you across the room with his rasp.

And is there an endorphin release after awhile---yup.  But it's released in response to significant pain, not because you're fiddling with twisting the ear in the same zip code as acupuncture points.  There are other specific calming points, but it's extremely unlikely they would be enough for a donkey with some real fear issues about getting her feet trimmed.

Susan G

Sent from my iPad

[Merri Melde]

yea! where's the LIKE button on this!

[Lynn White]

I'm a "better-living-through-chemistry"  kind of gal.  Bring on all  the happy meds available for medical trauma. whether is human or animal.

 

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[Truman Prevatt]

Well you could water board the donkey, that might work.  The French Foreign Legion are experts at water boarding - maybe they have done a donkey before and could give you guidance..  I'm sure they have done a camel.   Reminds me of an old joke....

T

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"Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by fighting back."  - Paul Erdos

[Nathan Hoyt]

Fine, I'll be the bad guy.

I will not put a chain twitch on an ear, but I have no other issues with twitching.  Twitching saved the day frequently.  My rule was to be as gentle as possible, but as tough as necessary.  I honestly don't think twitching causes severe pain, but I know they don't like it.  However, if they need to be twitched, I don't care if they like it.  What I do know is that horses don't stand still for severe pain.  They leave, violently, so there is definitely something to the endorphin release aspect.  I usually joke that they don't stand still because it hurts; they stand still because it could hurt.  

I am gonna stand up for all the farriers and vets who have to deal with their client's delicate flowers.  Sedation and gentle technique are beautiful things and most of the time that is all we need, but sometimes more primitive techniques are warranted.  I had several in-patient OPHs (other people's horses) that you had to "climb": skin twitch to get the ear twitch to get the nose twitch just so you can get the sedation on board so you could do whatever you needed to do in the first place.  We weren't trying to be heavy handed, but we had a job to do and we had to work with what the owners gave us.  These were usually nasty spoiled mares that were too obnoxious to mess with, so the owners turned them out to pasture to be brood mares (God, I wish I was just being snarky).  The average mini was about the same and the burros I worked with were pretty bad too.  Burros get much more touchy than horses about their ears, so I would nose twitch one instead of ear twitch.  By the time we got them out of the hospital they let us do what we needed to do without twitching or drama, so our technique couldn't have been as traumatic as it seems in print.

I am now going to play my bastard coated bastard with bastard filling card.  All you all get off your high horses about twitching.  As an ex-horse doc who no longer has to put up with OPHs for a living, I can say what others can't.  If you want someone else to jack with your "spirited"/"feisty"/"exuberant"/"energetic" critter and you don't like twitching, you dang well better get him/her trained to tolerate whatever it is he/she doesn't like 24/7/365 next to a busy interstate full of Mardi Gras floats and brass bands.  Clinton Anderson calls this getting rid of all the "don't-touch-me-there" spots.  Your vet's and farrier's backs, knees and shoulders are doomed, but that doesn't mean getting stomped, kicked, bitten or run over will be meekly tolerated.  The dreaded and highly unpopular, yet incredibly effective serial gut kick may make an appearance.

I've said my piece.  Let the flames begin.

Nate

Mostly harmless.

[Kathy Mayeda]

From one who bit the physical therapist during scar breakup, I totally understand the distraction under pain situation.  

I also actually took some wierd pleasure watching my vet wrassle Drako in the stall when he was not cooperating!

K.

[Karen Sullivan]

One of the hardest trim clients I have ever had was a mini donkey
gelding. He was totally uncooperative and our first trimming session
(one owner, two trimmers) had everyone exhausted and a pretty crappy
job. We insisted the owner get sedation for the next go round. I am
sorry I don't remember what he got, but it was given orally. After
the prescribed wait time, the donkey still was not cooperative and
seemed very alert. I don't remember who had the bright idea...but we
ended up putting on a fly mask and then completely covering it with
duct tape (what we had at hand), so that it was lights out.....as soon
as it went dark, he just relaxed, leaned against the owner and we were
able to do a pretty good trim on him.
Karen Sullivan

>> www.TheEquestrianVagabond.com <http://www.theequestrianvagabond.com/>

[Teddy Lancaster]

Hurray for you!  I for one learned that imprinting from birth has a LOT of advantages...too bad more breeders/owners do not do so...For the sake of sanity and injury to oneself AND others! My last equine baby ended up being "bomb-proof"...(wish I had know sooner :-( ....)

[Shannon Loomis]

As a current equine vet who has to deal with those obnoxious beasts, I thank you. My last castration, I not only had to help corral the ill mannered beast, I had to show the owner how to put the halter on!  And it was the wrong size, anyway. 

Shannon Loomis

QED Farm - Sport Morgans

Pleasant Creek, WV

[Merri Melde]

OK, I agree with Nate here too!

I would add to his rule, "be as gentle as possible, but as tough as necessary to keep the vet or shoer from getting hurt." no human should get hurt trying to work on a horse/donkey/mule/whatever.
the vet or shoer gets hurt and they lose their livelihood.

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www.TheEquestrianVagabond.com

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[Lisa Salas]

Thank you all for your input. I'm going with Dr. Garlinghouse's advice. These donkeys are not so much afraid of things as they are of just not being handled. I found them in a shed with no way out, no food no water. They had been living there for 12 years. How, I don't know. Sadly, I had to put one down because her front feet were so deformed, and that caused more problems all the way to her hips. I am a strong believer in drugs. I realize not everyone wants to pay for them but in the long run, it is better, and safer for everyone. 

I am so glad to hear that most of you also had advice along the same lines as Susan. I agree that training from the get go eliminates all of these problems, however that opportunity was not afforded to me with these donkeys. All I want to do is get their feet trimmed regularly. They don't kick or bite, they are just strong and hard to hold and since I can't convince them to sip my cocktail of choice, (Vodka, neat) I will be happy to pay for Susan's cocktail.  

Thanks again.

Lisa Salas, the oddfarm

[Barbara MCrary]

No flames from me, Nate. Obviously you’ve had a ton of experience and you do what is necessary to control the situation. I would hope (HOPE) that our horses won’t behave that way when the vet comes, (so far, so good.) It’s not only embarrassing to be the owner of a rank horse, but it’s highly dangerous. Not all of us are Clinton Andersons, so from time to time, we all have snotty horses that refuse to do something we want them to.

 

Barbara McCrary

Lifetime AERC member #2079

West Region

Horse owner since 1946 J

[endurancehorsemt]

I agree with you too Nate. Although I read the posts not as anti-twitching... but anti-ear-twisting, which people are saying isn't really twitching and maybe just painful. 

That said, if inflicting pain via ear-twisting was the only thing that worked, I'd still do it if it kept me or my farrier/vet from getting kicked. Getting kicked REALLY inflicts pain. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AERC # M39603 
www.allthingsendurance.com

[Lynn White]

My Mare Agnes was really good about most things.  Nailing shoes on her rear left foot pretty much sent her through the roof.  You could see it in her eyes.  She's really be trying to hold her foot up there and then she'd just go berserk.  I'm thinking she had something in her hip or stifle. Or perhaps she had some deep seated fear.   Twitching worked, but not nearly as good as morphine,  Having to coordinate time off work with a vet and a farrier stressed me out so much I just went to using boots.

 

I still had to hold Agnes' foot really low when working on it and I had to give her ACE before trims.  Some horses just have quirks and things we can't figure out.  Best to know what these quirks are so one can be ready to convey them to vets and farriers.

 

Mike-the-Morgan is way easier to work on if I start with his rear feet first.  Don't know why, he just is.  When I was having issues with Mike this fall I took him back to Joe-the-rainer for an afternoon.  Joe did the usual things and when it came time to saddle Mike up I told Joe that Mike would probably buck like heck when that rear cynch got attached.  Joe just looked at me and let Mike buck.  Then I got a lesson on how to deal with cynchy horses, which was something I never gave much thought to.  I'd never had a really cynchy horse before and didn't have a clue how to deal with it.  You just never know. 

 

 

If plan A doesn't work, try something else.  With equines, there is usually always an easier way to get something done.  We just have to think of it.

[Laney Humphrey]

If there were a "like" button, Merri, I'd click on it. I learned with
my human kids and my 4 legged kids that leadership has to be
established early and, if necessary, firmly Then once that's done
occasional reminders are all that's needed. The vet, the
farrier/trimmer/trainer come once in a blue moon to see my animals;
they don't get much of a chance to establish who is the leader and, as
you say, they are putting their livelihoods and even lives on the
line. If they have to use strong methods to establish who's in charge
quickly, so be it. They've learned that very few clients are willing
to pay for the time slower, gentler methods would take, so in addition
to protecting themselves, they are also acting to protect the human
client's wallet.
Laney
12921

[Lisa Salas]

I didn't mean to start a debate on twitching and I personally have never believed that it was a good thing. I did google the use of twitches on horses and all I could find really was this..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6089344

It seems to say that, there is no scientific proof of endorphins being released and that twitching does hurt and that may be why the animal can't move. It is described as the theory of divertive pain which I understand to be, cause pain, so as to distract from other pain. It also says it "may resemble that of classical acupuncture. " Acupuncture isn't painful though so I don't know what that means.

Lisa Salas, the odd farm

[Lynn White]

When a horse needs treatment what ever works and is at hand has got to be used. If you don't have access to meds twitch away and get them fixed and move on.    It's just a tool, and sometimes a very necessary one.

 

I love donkeys.  So happy you are taking care of these two. 

[Kathy Mayeda]

Accupuncture CAN be painful, depending on what's being treated.  I've had my horse buck hard with needlles in the hip, and I've had pretty ouchy needles myself, but that just means I really needed to move energy out that point. But lately I go to the accupuncturist first before seeing a regular doctor. 

I don't like the thought of ear twitching because I'm pretty sure that Drako was ear twitched as a youngster because he's hard to bridle.  I've had my other horse nose twitched once by the vet, and it didn't bother me emotionally at all.  I forgot what it was for, but it wasn't for a normal maintenance procedure like shoeing or shots.

K.