Weird elbow issue and lameness in a TB

[Karen Cox]

Hi, 

We are considering purchasing a thoroughbred (not as an endurance prospect though we might try her out some day). We have the horse at our place for a while to evaluate her. We noticed the horse lame on her front left. But we also noticed something really funky with her left elbow which unfortunately I have not caught on film. Sometimes when she shifts her weight to that side the elbow pops out to the outside. You can see it sticking out, and then her chest in front of that elbow has a hollow looking spot. When she shifts her weight back it pops back in and looks normal. You don't hear a pop, it just looks like something pops out of place and back in. Doesn't seem to bother the horse when it happens. Like what you see when "double jointed" people do weird contortions with their body. A little creepy. It only happens on one side, and I've never seen anything like this. Nor have I been able to find anything on line. Owner moved away a couple months ago and had never noticed lameness or the elbow thing, so it seems to be something that has developed recently.

We have a vet appointment for her shots in a couple weeks so will have it checked then, but in the meantime just wondering if anyone has seen anything like this. 

Although she is barefoot and needs a trim, we don't think it's her feet as she'll trot across gravel no problem, and doesn't avoid hard bumpy surfaces, and the lameness is visible on mushy pasture. . 

The horse is 16.3 hands, 5 years old, good conformation, great feet, from hunter/jumper bloodlines. But she has been in a pasture for a year without doing any work and is undermuscled, definitely not in shape, but not fat. We were thinking the issue could just be lack of conditioning (read somewhere that a horse's leg is attached to its body only by muscle). 

The only other thing we noticed is she has really big knees and we thought maybe bench-kneed but to my non-expert eyes, the bones do seem to line up even though the knees stick out more on the inside. The really big knees kind of go with the really big horse and don't think they are an issue but here is a picture: 

http://allthingsendurance.com/kora/KoraKnee.JPG 

She had formal training including under saddle at 2 and just groundwork after that. The horse was living with her owner until a few months ago and she had never noticed lameness so for all we know it could be gone in a few days. She did say the horse was in a pasture accident as a weanling, caught in a fence - maybe something got displaced? 

Here is a video showing the lameness, but not the weird shoulder pop thing, unless someone can see something I'm not seeing. She is the bigger horse with the white socks and patch.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEPJ8Nj0P6I

Thanks in advance for any clues, info, or links!

Karen in MT

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[Kathy Sherman]

The vets told me to remember the phrase "down is sound" when trying to
determine front end lameness, that whichever hoof is down and weight
bearing at the time the head is down is the sound hoof and horse is
comfortable with the weight.  The horse will then lift it's head up
trying to unweight the sore hoof as it lands. It looks to me that her
head dropping when her left front is weight bearing, but  I'm having a
hard time watching long enough thru the tree. At about 16-18 sec into
the video, there is a noticeable bigger movement in the vicinity of
the muscle over her elbow that sort of stands out as she weights her
front, but it could just be that I'm looking for something. I'm going
to have to go watch my horses move now (:>)

Kathy

[Karen Cox]

I see what you are talking about but that is different and less drastic than what we are seeing on the other side, which almost seems like a bone sticking out, not just muscle. I'll need to catch it on video!

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[Sandy Adams]

Hi Karen,

Can I ask why you want to buy this horse? Just my first impression is that with the odd elbow issue and any lameness at all, I don't think I would bother with a vet check. we are pretty stressed over the price of hay right now, and to feed another animal, it would have to be one who is not lame or ill and has no special needs. Just my first thought.

Sandy

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Sandy Adams

Deep Sands Arabians

www.garyadamsbooks.com

[Karen Cox]

We haven't decided yet. For all we know so far it's a temporary thing that will be gone in a few days. We brought her home on trial so we could observe and evaluate. We were helping the owner out by taking her in for shots, so may as well get the lameness examined if it's still occurring. I'm curious as to what was going on with her shoulder, even if we don't buy her. We haven't seen her do the "double jointed" thing since Saturday so I don't know if it's related to the lameness. 

As to why we want to buy her, let me count the reasons! But we've been there done that with chronic lameness and there are a couple other horses in the wings to look at if she turns out to have a chronic issue.

[SMW]

There is nothing wrong with her elbow, most horses can stand with it "popped" out.
One look at her knee and all that extra calcification and i would run the other way.
Why in the world would anyone expect to ride a lame horse?
She is lame and with time will simply become more lame.

Sharon

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[Cris Potmesil]

I have a 17 yr. old Haflinger mare with a left knee that looks similar. It's been coming on for a while. We had x-rays taken a few months ago when she had her dental work done. It's a bone spur and arthritis with what appears to be a healed fracture from sometime in her past. The Vet I use for dental work used to be a track vet and he said her area of arthritis is commonly seen as a "speed injury" in race horses. We know she's never trained for the Triple Crown (LOL!), and was mostly used as a broodmare until I bought her when she was 9 yrs. old. Best guess is she was kicked as a younger horse, or even stepped on by her dam.

 

She moves okay at the walk, and is head bobbing lame at the trot. She doesn't even try anymore to lope or canter. On winter frozen ground she is really crippled and won't hardly move. She gets Bute in her breakfast on farrier day and needs a rest break when he is working on her right fore. She trembles and groans. Her pasture companion is a 28 yr. old QH gelding with equine alzheimer's and they take care of each other.

 

All that said, the mare you are considering is probably not likely to ever be sound and will only get worse. You can invest in x-rays to confirm the issues in the joint but that will only be money spent on a horse you don't own. You know there was a pasture accident in her past and this is probably the outcome. The damage is done and can't be reversed. I wouldn't believe the owner saying she never saw any lameness. Maybe she wasn't very observant but it's the nature of horse sales to plead ignorance of such issues. That's the large grain of salt you take with every horse for sale.

 

If you want another mouth to feed and a pasture pet, this is the right horse. If you want a trail buddy and a possible endurance prospect, this is the wrong horse.

 

 

Cris P.

[Nancy Sturm]

Unless you do rescues and bless you if that's what you're thinking, this
doesn't seem like a good idea.

There are some very nice horses for sale. Just in the barn where I ride,
I can think of two Arab young mares bred for endurance and an AngloArab
bred for the showring - all well trained and sound. There are probably
hundreds more.

Nancy

[Karen Cox]

Both of her knees look like that. I just figured she had big knees. Sounds like maybe not. 

We are not necessarily looking for an endurance horse. But yes, a sound one with some size and speed. Won't be a problem finding one. We were just hoping this mare maybe fell in pasture and would be better in a week! 

If we could keep three horses we'd keep her regardless, but we can only have two here so they have to be rideable. 

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[Linda Cowles]

>>She gets Bute in her breakfast on farrier day and needs a rest break when he is working on her right fore. She trembles and groans.

Chris, I trim several older horses with old knee injurries and arthritis who have trouble lifting their legs for trimming. I walk them onto cement or plywood and trim them from the top, standing flt, with an angle grinder and either a grinding wheel or 24 to 40 grit sanding wheels…

I have trimmed one 38YO horse like this for 4 years and his feet look great. We trim every 6 weeks and it takes 30 minutes.

If there is enough interest in this technique, I can do a webinar on it.

Linda Cowles
Santa Rosa, CA
WWW.HealthyHoof.Com    mailto:Healt...@Comcast.net

Founding Member, American Hoof Association http://www.americanhoofassociation.org/
Mentor, Pacific Hoof Care Practitioners http://www.pacifichoofcare.org/
Whole Horse Health discussion forum  http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/wholehorsehealth/

 

[Cris Potmesil]

Appreciate the info. We may have to get creative at some point because she's just shy of 14 hands and it can be a bit tough to get under her. My previous farrier was a short woman like myself. She retired and the guy I have now is a big guy. Panache will lean on him and he lets her. She will still give the leg with the bum knee but gets fussy about giving the opposite fore. She does not like shifting weight over to the bad leg. If you are familiar with Haflingers you know they are incredibly stoic and don't often show a pain response. When she trembles and groans shifting and bearing weight onto her left fore I know it hurts.