Downhill trotting

[k s swigart]

Ed said:

> Within the last year I read an article on conditioning of tendons
> and joints. This article claimed that while the damage repair and
> strengthening of muscles, goes well with an alternate day schedule
> (that is hard day, easy day, hard day, etc.), tendons and joints
> require much more time to repair damage, thus it recommended
> hard conditioning sessions should be separated by about two weeks.
...
> Following this advice, I have added some down hill trotting miles
> to my conditioning program, but only two times a month.

This would be a good strategy if the purpose of adding down hill trotting miles
were to condition the tendons and joints to handle extra concussion that people
think trotting downhill subjects a horse to.

However, trotting downhill so it doesn't damage a horse is a MUSCLE exercise. 
As Nate mentioned in his post about using collection including for trotting down
hill, if you want to trot downhill effectively you have to condition the muscles
for it so the horse can maintain the necessary collection (and engagement, which
is more important) so that it DOESN'T subject the legs to excessive concussion.

The "proper" way to trot down hill doesn't pound the hell out of the horse's
front legs, the proper way to trot down hill is to engage the hindquarters,
strengthen the loin so the horse gently places its front feet on the ground even
while going down hill...at speed.

This is why I contend that downhill trotting needs to be practiced regularly
(and much more often than twice a month).  Trotting downhill "properly" is an
isometric exercise (i.e. the horse has to use the muscles of the back to hold UP
its front end--and the weight of the rider I might add--against the pull of
gravity), and this requires great muscle strength.  The way to build the muscles
necessary to do this requires slowly adding small amounts of trotting downhill
that never includes any pounding onto the front end--or at least very little. 
You only do it for as long as the horse can hold itself up.  But, because it is
a muscle building exercise, it can effectively be done in "repetitions" (i.e.
trot down the slope once, turn around and go back up, then trot down it again). 
And yes this can be done on an "alternate day" schedule; although, I prefer
about 2-3 times per week, at least to start with, after the muscles are
conditioned, it takes less (but not none) to maintain their condition.

If you condition the down hill trotting muscles in this way, you will eventually
have a horse that can trot downhill for miles at a time without pounding the
ground at all.  Assuming you started with a horse with a suitable top line
(which is the conformation that _I_ look at in a horse) and a set of decently
placed hocks.

If you don't believe me, just try running downhill yourself and see how quickly
your MUSCLES get sore (especially your quads) if you hold yourself up while you
are doing it if you haven't conditioned for it.

kat
Orange County, Calif.
:)

[Ranch]

"... (i.e. the horse has to use the muscles of the back to hold UP

its front end--and the weight of the rider I might add--against the pull of

gravity),..."

I don't quite understand how a horse can hold up its front end using its
back legs while on a slope. If you consider the horse and rider, with the
rider's back vertical, on level, standing still and down hill standing still
(legs in the same positions), there is no way that going down hill there is
not more weight on the front of the horse. I am not considering very steep
slopes (say >40% slope. Most of the downhill slopes that people want or
need to trot are not over 8%). I do understand that a collected horse, with
its back legs properly under its body (excuse if I do not use proper
terminology, I am not dressage trained.), will minimize the weight transfer
to the front end, but it still will be there.

By the way, as I interpret the article and what I intended to post, I did
not intend to say that no down hill trotting or cantering on hard surfaces,
was done between the hard workouts.

I do very much agree that if a properly conditioned horse is helped to learn
how to move properly, and it's muscles are strong, it will minimize the
impact damage to the joints, ligaments etc.

Many years ago, before my left knee gave out, my friend and I were running
regularly on the flat lands of MN. She was doing half marathons, and one
marathon that summer. We went on vacation to BC and hiked up Mt. Garibaldi.
Going up was not a problem, but even walking down the 6 K or so produced
horrible leg pain. Different muscles were in use. Now I do similar walks
here in the Bitterroot with no problems except that I get tired. I have
built my muscles up for walking in the mountains. Obviously, the same holds
for horses. As a personal experiment, this spring when the ice goes away, I
am going to add a few sprints to my daily 3 mile walk two times a month. My
goal is to see if I can build up my left knee and eventually be able to run
3 miles three days a week. The last time I tried this, I did a 3 day a week
run schedule. My wind came back easily, but before fall my knee became
quite painful.

I guess my bottom line is that I am a firm believer that proper conditioning
is required, that muscles condition best with alternate day hard (for their
state of condition) workouts, but hard workouts that stress joints,
ligaments, tendons etc. should be done at much longer intervals.

Ed
Ed & Wendy Hauser
2994 Mittower Road
Victor, MT 59875

[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

Kat is right on the mark here.  The horse going downhill properly rounds his back and gets his hindquarters underneath himself so that on all but the extreme slopes, his body remains nearly level.  When he does this, he takes a lot of weight off of his front end.  This is very much a muscular exercise, as Kat states--horses going downhill properly but lacking in the fitness to do so will get sore in the semimembranosus and semitendinosus muscles (those big muscles in the back of the thigh).  Regular (by which I mean with appropriate rest intervals for muscle repair--ie every 2-3 days instead of every day) work downhill at less-than-maximal speeds does wonders for this ability, and saves the horse a lot of wear and tear in the long run. 

 

I've been blessed with some horses who were REALLY good at this--and if they tripped going downhill, it was always in the hind end, because their front ends were light.   

 

I'd add here a slightly nuanced difference between "training" and "conditioning"--what we endurance folks often call "training" is really "conditioning"--ie getting fit.  We also need to "train" in the sense of teaching the horse to utilize his body properly (ie the rounding of the back, the getting the hindquarters underneath, etc.)--and this is an area we as a group tend to under-pursue (myself included).  Some cross-training in dressage can be helpful for this--but if you understand the principles, you can do it all out on the trail, and utilize the principles when you introduce new horses to hill work.

 

Heidi

 

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[Ranch]

Heidi Smith posted:

 

"...Regular (by which I mean with appropriate rest intervals for muscle repair--ie every 2-3 days instead of every day) work downhill at less-than-maximal speeds ..."

 

"...Tendons and ligaments take even longer.  This is why so many horses can get really "strong" in terms of improved muscle strength and then go out and hurt themselves.  

 

That's why it pays to plan on taking a year or two to really "build" a horse!..."

 

What I am hearing here is that while tendons etc. take much longer to repair/strengthen after workout, the best idea is still to use the alternate (approximately) day approach, just be sure that you build the duration/speed slowly, infact much slower that what the developing muscle strength and aerobic fitness would indicate.  Makes me glad I live in the Bitterroot, and wonder what I will do when I move back to the flatlands and get a chance to ride in MT or ID.

[Dawn Carrie]

A horse that is properly collected and using its hindquarters and core muscles properly when trotting downhill feels almost as if the front end is "floating."  That's the best way I can describe it.  It's an amazing sensation.

 

My husband does endurance (mostly 50s, although he's done one 75 and one 100) on two Paso Fino geldings.  They trot most of the time, although he does gait and canter them now and then.  Those two horses can fly downhill at a trot like little greased eels (I think that's one of Heidi's terms LOL).  They tuck their butts, float their front ends, and simply FLY!  It's amazing to watch, and an E-ticket ride to ride, the few times I've ridden them down a steep hill.

 

Dawn Carrie

[Roger Ward]

 

I am replying to this old thread to ask about downhill trotting.  A 10K AERC rider told me not to trot a horse down a steep hill because it was hard on their legs.  Since then I have been jumping off and jogging down the hill with the horse behind me.  This is a lot faster than walking down the hill.  This thread seems to endorse trotting down hill, but assuming that it is hard on the horse, but will dismounting to jog down long / steep grades mitigate the stress and allow you to cover more ground at a faster speed?

Roger Ward 

[Truman Prevatt]

I think like any "rule" it depends a lot on the horse.  I would agree that as a general rule - it might be best to avoid trotting downhill. However, there are a lot successful riders that did use hills as their advantage by making time which would include trotting down.  

However, if  you intend to trot down hill in a ride you will need a balanced horse that can engage his hind end to control speed instead of his front legs and do specialized training for it.  Both the horses I rode were excellent down hill horses.  The both were extremely well balanced to the point of almost skiing down hill using their hind legs.  In mountains they would wear out two hind shoes over front shoes 2 to 1.  They were also ridden regularly in deep sand which did a heck of a job strengthening connective tissue.  

This is one of those topics that I would say, "understand the principles and devise your own methods" applies.

On Sep 1, 2013, at 8:45 AM, Roger Ward <roger_and...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I am replying to this old thread to ask about downhill trotting.  A 10K AERC rider told me not to trot a horse down a steep hill because it was hard on their legs.  Since then I have been jumping off and jogging down the hill with the horse behind me.  This is a lot faster than walking down the hill.  This thread seems to endorse trotting down hill, but assuming that it is hard on the horse, but will dismounting to jog down long / steep grades mitigate the stress and allow you to cover more ground at a faster speed?

Roger Ward 

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[Nathan Hoyt]

The hallmark of a horse that is heavy on the forehand is "snowballing" down hill.  You are not complaining about your horse running you over, so he is probably okay.  If you make better time jogging down than riding at a walk, do so.  It gives them a break after the preceding climb.  It also can do a world of good when the rider has race brain (not saying that you do, just an general observation).

I'd encourage downhill trotting during training ride so you can be sure he has the tools in his tool box.  Some horses are naturally gifted, but most require help to teach them proper movement under saddle.  KS Swigart had a fabulous post titled "suggested exercises" on April 16 this year that specifically addresses releasing the LS joint.  This is the basis of getting a horse to use its body properly going downhill.

Anytime anyone says "never" do something, there are almost always a huge number of qualifiers that are being left out so the statement appears more decisive.  A collected horse can trot uphill, downhill, right, left, forward and backwards without issue or injury if you have trained them how to move properly.  An uncollected horse will tear itself up trotting on flat ground eventually and trotting downhill will definitely speed the process.

Nate

Mostly Harmless

On Sep 1, 2013, at 8:45, Roger Ward <roger_and...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I am replying to this old thread to ask about downhill trotting.  A 10K AERC rider told me not to trot a horse down a steep hill because it was hard on their legs.  Since then I have been jumping off and jogging down the hill with the horse behind me.  This is a lot faster than walking down the hill.  This thread seems to endorse trotting down hill, but assuming that it is hard on the horse, but will dismounting to jog down long / steep grades mitigate the stress and allow you to cover more ground at a faster speed?

Roger Ward 

--

[enduranc...@gmail.com]

There was a piece of advice I remember from that old thread that stuck with me - if you are going to trot downhill at a ride, then trot downhill at home too. Don't save ALL the downhill trotting for endurance rides thinking to reduce the number of downhill miles. If you're going to do it at a ride your horse should be conditioned for it and be able to do it balanced. Makes sense to me.

Also, depending where you live a "hill" can mean very different things. What my parents, who live very close to the coast in the East, call a hill, I, who live in the Rockies call flat :)

Sent from my iPod

[Joe Long]

The previous replies have said pretty much what I was going to say.  You can trot downhill if you've trained and conditioned the horse for it, if the horse has the talent for it.  And it is a valuable skill if you intend to race.  I trained all of my horses to trot downhill.  On steep hills I would get off and jog down with him, on moderate hills I would ride downhill  at a trot.  You can gain a lot of time on other riders doing this, and if the horse is properly conditioned for it it won't do him any harm or shorten his career.

A bedrock principle of mine is that I never asked my horse to do at a ride what he had not been conditioned to do at home.  This includes trotting (and for mild hills even cantering) downhill.  If the only time that you trot downhill is at rides, then IMO there is a real risk of harm.

Enduranc...@gmail.com

1 September, 2013 8:25 AM

There was a piece of advice I remember from that old thread that stuck with me - if you are going to trot downhill at a ride, then trot downhill at home too. Don't save ALL the downhill trotting for endurance rides thinking to reduce the number of downhill miles. If you're going to do it at a ride your horse should be conditioned for it and be able to do it balanced. Makes sense to me.

Also, depending where you live a "hill" can mean very different things. What my parents, who live very close to the coast in the East, call a hill, I, who live in the Rockies call flat :)

Sent from my iPod

On Sep 1, 2013, at 7:31 AM, Truman Prevatt <tpre...@mindspring.com> wrote:

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Truman Prevatt

1 September, 2013 7:31 AM

I think like any "rule" it depends a lot on the horse.  I would agree that as a general rule - it might be best to avoid trotting downhill. However, there are a lot successful riders that did use hills as their advantage by making time which would include trotting down.  

However, if  you intend to trot down hill in a ride you will need a balanced horse that can engage his hind end to control speed instead of his front legs and do specialized training for it.  Both the horses I rode were excellent down hill horses.  The both were extremely well balanced to the point of almost skiing down hill using their hind legs.  In mountains they would wear out two hind shoes over front shoes 2 to 1.  They were also ridden regularly in deep sand which did a heck of a job strengthening connective tissue.  

This is one of those topics that I would say, "understand the principles and devise your own methods" applies.

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Roger Ward

1 September, 2013 6:45 AM

 

Roger Ward 

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Joe Long  aka ChipRider
jl...@chiprider.com
A++ G+ PKR+ PEG+ B+ M+

[Dodie Sable]

I believe the key word here is “steep”.  I had two walker mares that were downhill queens and we made up a lot of time on the downside.  On a steep grade, however, I made them walk.  Many years ago, a very successful 100 milers told me that there are only “so many downhill trots” in each horse so use them wisely.  His comment was during a conversation about trotting down hills versus walking.  His rule of thumb, if the grade was so steep that he couldn’t see the bottom through his horse’s ears, he got off and walked it.

 

I agree that walking down a steep grade is safer for both the rider and the horse.  Even without the weight of the rider, a horse trotting down a steep grade is still putting stress on the legs.

 

Dodie

M33021

 

****I am replying to this old thread to ask about downhill trotting.  A 10K AERC rider told me not to trot a horse down a steep hill because it was hard on their legs.  Since then I have been jumping off and jogging down the hill with the horse behind me.  This is a lot faster than walking down the hill.  This thread seems to endorse trotting down hill, but assuming that it is hard on the horse, but will dismounting to jog down long / steep grades mitigate the stress and allow you to cover more ground at a faster speed?

Roger Ward 

 

[Joe Long]

I've heard that "only so many downhill trots"  before.  It is not only false, IMO it's dangerous.  Training and conditioning the horse to trot downhill helps keep him sound.  To the extent that belief discourages people from trotting downhill when conditioning, IMO it is bad advice for their horse.

Myself, on a grade that was so steep that I got off, I would still jog down with my horse trotting behind me unless the trail was so rugged that it was unsafe to jog/trot.  I figure that if the jogging isn't impacting my two legs enough to hurt me, it isn't hurting my horse (who is using his hind legs correctly).
 
It's similar to something I hear now and then from people who don't like to exercise:  "We have only so many heartbeats in our lifetimes.  I don't want to use them up exercising."  (Yes, I know, most of the time it's said as a joke.)   Even if that was true, a person who  exercises gets a lower pulse rate the rest of the time, so that a person who gets his heartrate up by exercising may have FEWER heartbeats per week on average.  My resting pulse is 58.  I have a friend who runs Ultras (100-mile foot races) and his resting pulse is 50.

Dodie Sable

2 September, 2013 3:24 AM

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[Laney Humphrey]

Even some non gaited horses learn how to sort of shimmy downhill.  I had an arabian that did that.  He also singlefooted when I wouldn't let him trot & he wanted to get home.  His shimmy was way fun to ride.. Gaited horses easily gait downhill but it's true that they have more hooves on the ground at any time than a trotting horse does.  Downhill gaiting isn't supposed to be hard on joints so I'm not sure I believer that downhill trotting would be either.  But, in the end, it does depend on the horse.  Laney

--

[Diane Trefethen]

I disagree with Joe to the extent that he makes trotting downhill sound like
ho-hum, just another thing we do on trail. Also, it is not always valid to
state that what is okay for one species is okay for another. Cattle and horses
consider poison oak delicious but I wouldn�t recommend any people use it as the
base for a salad.

That jogging down hill, Joe. How many miles did you do that in your whole
career? You said you only got off on steep down hills but there aren�t many of
those on rides and they don�t tend to be very long, ie, less than 100 yards. A
better comparison to a horse repeatedly trotting downhill, not jogging or
shuffling, is mogul skiers. Arthritic knees in their 30s is not uncommon.
Repeated stress of weight-bearing joints does damage. Not a lot at once but
there is wear and tear. Look at the number of horses who get filling without
heat from downhill work. And what happens to a 6 yr old Endurance horse that a
rider runs the crap out of? Does it keep coming back year after year? No. It
starts having lameness issues and then disappears. You can build up bone,
ligaments, tendons, muscle, heart tissue and lung capacity but you can�t
increase cartilage. Each of us starts with so much and when it�s gone, that�s it.

There is a world of difference between treating downhill trotting like it is a
skill to be learned and like it is no big deal. Yes you train your horse to trot
downhill in a balanced fashion with his rear under him but once he knows how to
do that, it is NOT a skill you practice. The comparison to cardiovascular
training is false because, as you said, increasing your heart rate while
exercising strengthens your heart. Trotting downhill places a lot of stress on
the joints in the front legs and the result of this stress is not stronger
joints or increased cartilage. For every stride the cartilage cushions the
pressure between bones, a minute fraction is lost. It is irreplaceable. If I am
wrong about the body, horse or human, being able to regenerate cartilage, I hope
someone with more education than I will weigh in with data or studies that show
how to build it. I'm sure there are a lot of people with osteoarthritis who
would love to know how to do that.

[k s swigart]

Diane said:

> Yes you train your horse to trot downhill in a balanced fashion with his
>  rear under him but once he knows how to do that, it is NOT a skill you
> practice. The comparison to cardiovascular training is false because, as
> you said, increasing your heart rate while exercising strengthens your heart.
> Trotting downhill places a lot of stress on  the joints in the front legs and
> the result of this stress is not stronger joints or increased cartilage.

If done correctly and in a balanced fashion, trotting downhill does NOT place a lot of stress on the joints in the front legs.  Trotting downhill in a balanced fashion requires a great deal of muscle development as the horse has to use the muscles of its "core" to hold up the front end while it places the front feet on the ground instead of just letting gravity do all the work.  This is an isometric exercise of these core muscles, and rest assured, if you want your horse to have the strength in its muscles to do downhill trotting for any length of time, then those muscles MUST be developed systematically and worked regularly

The reason for regularly practicing trotting downhill is to develop the muscles that enable you to do it for longer and longer periods of time without stressing the joints.  The more you practice doing it correctly, the stronger the muscles become, and the stronger the muscles become, the less stress on the joints.

And the horse is not the only one who has to build the muscles for trotting downhill.  Trotting downhill is an isometric exercise of the "core" for the rider as well, so a rider cannot expect to be able to ride a horse at the trot downhill for extended periods of time without having developed his/her own muscles for doing it without fatiguing by practicing regularly.

Here is a quote from an triathalon training site about running downhill:
"Want to blow by your competition? Learn how to tackle the downhill. If you’ve ever woken up with burning quads the day after a hilly race, you can probably blame all the downhill pounding. Although running uphill may feel more difficult from a cardio perspective, going downhill well is challenging—and a lot harder on your body.

"Here’s why: Muscles contract in two ways—concentrically (muscle shortens: think picking something up) and eccentrically (muscle lengthens while contracting: think putting that something back down). “Eccentric contractions are much more costly from an energy and wear and tear perspective,” says Dr. Ivo Waerlop, D.C. “Running downhill requires lots of eccentric contraction..."

Trotting downhill for a horse also requires a lot of "eccentric contraction" of the horse's muscles.  And if you want your horse's muscles to be able to do lots of those eccentric contractions (i.e.isometrics) then you had better build the muscle power to do it.

Simply teaching your horse to trot downhill in a balanced fashion is not enough.  The horse does not merely need to know how to do it.  It also needs to develop the muscles to be able to KEEP doing it for extended distances.  And the rider does not merely need to know how to ride in a balanced fashion going downhill, s/he also needs to develop the muscles to be able to KEEP doing it for extended distances.  And yes, that means REGULAR practice with progressively longer and longer distances and progressively higher and higher speeds.

Here is a link to a website that discusses the concept for human runners:

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/11/training/tips-for-downhill-running_16470

Here is a quote from that article:

"Indeed, when exercise physiologists wish to study exercise-induced muscle damage and DOMS, they almost always use downhill running to cause damage and soreness, because it does so more effectively than most other kinds of exercise."

Trotting downhill works the MUSCLES of your horse very hard (unless you want to just let your horse slam onto its front end), and you will fatigue your horse's muscles quite effectively (and then have to slam onto the front end) if you do not condition those muscles for the exercise.

Trotting downhill works the MUSCLES of the rider very hard (unless you want to make your horse do the work of holding you up as well), and you will fatigue your muscles quite effectively (and then make your horse hold you up too) if you do not condition those muscles for the exercise.

kat
Orange County, Calif.
:|

[Laney Humphrey]

Thought inspiring points, Kat.  Laney

[Joe Long]

First of all, I didn't say it was ho-hum.  I say it's something that you need to condition the horse to do.  I also do not say that all horses are equally talented at it, nor all breeds.

I disagree that conditioning does not build up the ability of joints to withstand stress.  It takes longer for tendons and such to condition than soft tissues like muscle (including the heart) but they do get tougher with work.  Even bone gets tougher with work, although that takes the longest of all.   So a horse that is conditioned for all of the things he will encounter on the trail, including downhill, will stay sound longer and have a longer career than one who is not.

Kat had an excellent post today explaining why the conditioning of the muscles lowers the stress on the joints as well.

I know that my experience with Kahlil does not translate to all horses. However, I conditioned all of my endurance horses for trotting downhill, used trotting downhill to gain time on the rides, and never lamed a horse doing it.  YMMV.

Diane Trefethen

September 2, 2013 11:03 PM

I disagree with Joe to the extent that he makes trotting downhill sound like ho-hum, just another thing we do on trail. Also, it is not always valid  to state that what is okay for one species is okay for another. Cattle and horses consider poison oak delicious but I wouldn’t recommend any people use it as the base for a salad.

That jogging down hill, Joe. How many miles did you do that in your whole career? You said you only got off on steep down hills but there aren’t many of those on rides and they don’t tend to be very long, ie, less than 100 yards. A better comparison to a horse repeatedly trotting downhill, not jogging or shuffling, is mogul skiers. Arthritic knees in their 30s is not uncommon. Repeated stress of weight-bearing joints does damage. Not a lot at once but there is wear and tear. Look at the number of horses who get filling without heat from downhill work. And what happens to a 6 yr old Endurance horse that a rider runs the crap out of? Does it keep coming back year after year? No. It starts having lameness issues and then disappears. You can build up bone, ligaments, tendons, muscle, heart tissue and lung capacity but you can’t increase cartilage. Each of us starts with so much and when it’s gone, that’s it.

There is a world of difference between treating downhill trotting like it is a skill to be learned and like it is no big deal. Yes you train your horse to trot downhill in a balanced fashion with his rear under him but once he knows how to do that, it is NOT a skill you practice. The comparison to cardiovascular training is false because, as you said, increasing your heart rate while exercising strengthens your heart. Trotting downhill places a lot of stress on the joints in the front legs and the result of this stress is not stronger joints or increased cartilage. For every stride the cartilage cushions the pressure between bones, a minute fraction is lost. It is irreplaceable. If I am wrong about the body, horse or human, being able to regenerate cartilage, I hope someone with more education than I will weigh in with data or studies that show how to build it. I'm sure there are a lot of people with osteoarthritis who would love to know how to do that.

[stephanie teeter]

I'm not totally on board here. The training/strengthening will certainly improve performance, but it doesn't eliminate strain and wear and tear. Muscles don't operate alone, they're attached to bones. And the bones/tendons/ligaments/cartilage are still experiencing additional stress with downhill work. 

Using the hind end properly as a horse runs downhill doesn't eliminate the stress and strain, it just transfers it from the front end to the hind end. 

Think of injuries associated with disciplines like dressage and reining which depend on core and muscle strength developed in the horse, especially the hind quarters - you see hock and hind fetlock injuries, much more than you ever see in endurance horses. 

I agree it's a good thing to develop muscles properly to handle any work - uphill, downhill, jumping, racing, dressage, etc - but that doesn't mean there's less wear and tear - it's just transferred to different body parts.

Steph

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[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

Joe and Kat are right on the mark with their responses to this.  I've been blessed through the years with some horses that have had a particular talent for trotting downhill--and those horses taught me a great deal about it.  Kat's description of how the horse uses its core muscles is correct--I would only add that the muscles in the backs of the thighs (semimembranosus and semitendinosus) are also used and must be very strong and conditioned to the work.  The ONLY time I have ever had a sore horse from trotting downhill at rides has been when one of my really GOOD downhill horses was not really fit, and I still rode him downhill the way he was used to going downhill...and he came in with sore muscles in the backs of his thighs, NOT with sore joints.  My fault--and as Joe stated, it was due to not doing enough of it at home first to be fit to do it for extended periods at the ride.

 

If done properly, horses go downhill VERY light on the forehand, and it is VERY easy on the front legs.  My original endurance horse (who was SO good at going downhill) fractured a sesamoid in a front fetlock when he was in his teens (NOT going downhill!).  He healed from that injury but was always a little stiff in that fetlock afterward.  The ONLY place where he did not lose ANY ability from that injury was going downhill--he could do that just as well as he ever did, precisely BECAUSE it is easy on the forehand when done correctly, and because he was so good at doing it correctly.  The ONE ride which he won following rehabilitation from that injury was a steep, nasty, wet, muddy ride--we were in the lead (since we had been able to gain on the downhills all day and also out-recovered everyone else at vet checks) and a younger, faster horse caught us not far from the finish on a logging road.  That horse and rider were quickly overhauling us when we came to a STEEP downhill, where the other horse had to slow down because he could NOT go down it correctly.  My old guy with his rehabilitated fetlock launched down that hill in perfect balance, hind end gathered up underneath himself, with his front end floating free and "steering" while the hind end and the core muscles did all the work.  We left the other rider wondering what the heck had happened, powered all the way down the hill, and had enough of a lead that they never even came close to catching us in the 500 yards or so that we still had to sprint to the finish. 

 

Downhill done properly is indeed an exercise in strength, NOT an endeavor which beats up horses' front ends!

 

Heidi   

 

[k s swigart]

Steph said:

> Using the hind end properly as a horse runs downhill doesn't eliminate
> the stress and strain, it just transfers it from the front end to the hind end.

Actually, training and conditioning a horse to carry itself on its hind end does reduce the total stress and strain associated with traveling the same distance.  It does not just transfer the strain from the front end to the back end.  And here is why:

Mostly, the horse uses its front legs for BRAKING*, and the heavier on the forehand the horse is, the more braking the front legs will be doing on every stride.

To use an analogy to demonstrate the concept, if you drive your car with the parking brake on, not only will you increase the stress on the brake shoes, you will also increase the amount of fuel you will use to get the same speed and distance from your car.

Transferring your horse's weight from the front end to the back end (whether you are going downhill or not) is the equivalent of releasing the parking brake on your car.

Additionally, if you train you horse to trot downhill in self-carriage, you are transferring MUCH of the work to the muscles of the "core" so you are not just transferring the stress from the joints of the front legs to the hocks, but rather you are transferring the stress from joints to muscles....which is why you CAN condition for it.

kat
Orange County, Calif.

* This, incidentally, is one of the reasons that extended gaits are energy inefficient compared to working gaits.

[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

Steph, it's true that there is stress transferred to the hind legs.  However, since the soft tissues act as a sort of "suspension" system, that stress and strain on the hocks and fetlocks in the hind end is not near as severe as the pounding that the front end receives if the horse is out of balance.  If the horse goes down on the forehand, the only "suspension" comes from the suspensory apparatus of the front legs--hardly sufficient to "brake" a thousand-plus pounds of horse and rider.  If done correctly, with the horse rounded and on its hindquarters, the ENTIRE suspension apparatus from poll to hind heels is engaged, and taking up the pounding--and that is a HUGE relief to the joints in the hind end which are engaged in the process.

 

Heidi 

 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting
From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, September 03, 2013 9:32 am
To: kat...@att.net
Cc: "ride...@endurance.net" <ride...@endurance.net>

I'm not totally on board here. The training/strengthening will certainly improve performance, but it doesn't eliminate strain and wear and tear. Muscles don't operate alone, they're attached to bones. And the bones/tendons/ligaments/cartilage are still experiencing additional stress with downhill work. 

Using the hind end properly as a horse runs downhill doesn't eliminate the stress and strain, it just transfers it from the front end to the hind end. 

Think of injuries associated with disciplines like dressage and reining which depend on core and muscle strength developed in the horse, especially the hind quarters - you see hock and hind fetlock injuries, much more than you ever see in endurance horses. 

I agree it's a good thing to develop muscles properly to handle any work - uphill, downhill, jumping, racing, dressage, etc - but that doesn't mean there's less wear and tear - it's just transferred to different body parts.

Steph

On Sep 3, 2013, at 8:19 AM, k s swigart <kat...@att.net> wrote:

Diane said:

> Yes you train your horse to trot downhill in a balanced fashion with his
>  rear under him but once he knows how to do that, it is NOT a skill you
> practice. The comparison to cardiovascular training is false because, as
> you said, increasing your heart rate while exercising strengthens your heart.
> Trotting downhill places a lot of stress on  the joints in the front legs and
> the result of this stress is not stronger joints or increased cartilage.

If done correctly and in a balanced fashion, trotting downhill does NOT place a lot of stress on the joints in the front legs.  Trotting downhill in a balanced fashion requires a great deal of muscle development as the horse has to use the muscles of its "core" to hold up the front end while it places the front feet on the ground instead of just letting gravity do all the work.  This is an isometric exercise of these core muscles, and rest assured, if you want your horse to have the strength in its muscles to do downhill trotting for any length of time, then those muscles MUST be developed systematically and worked regularly

The reason for regularly practicing trotting downhill is to develop the muscles that enable you to do it for longer and longer periods of time without stressing the joints.  The more you practice doing it correctly, the stronger the muscles become, and the stronger the muscles become, the less stress on the joints.

And the horse is not the only one who has to build the muscles for trotting downhill.  Trotting downhill is an isometric exercise of the "core" for the rider as well, so a rider cannot expect to be able to ride a horse at the trot downhill for extended periods of time without having developed his/her own muscles for doing it without fatiguing by practicing regularly.

Here is a quote from an triathalon training site about running downhill:
"Want to blow by your competition? Learn how to tackle the downhill. If you’ve ever woken up with burning quads the day after a hilly race, you can probably blame all the downhill pounding. Although running uphill may feel more difficult from a cardio perspective, going downhill well is challenging—and a lot harder on your body.

"Here’s why: Muscles contract in two ways—concentrically (muscle shortens: think picking something up) and eccentrically (muscle lengthens while contracting: think putting that something back down). “Eccentric contractions are much more costly from an energy and wear and tear perspective,” says Dr. Ivo Waerlop, D.C. “Running downhill requires lots of eccentric contraction..."

Trotting downhill for a horse also requires a lot of "eccentric contraction" of the horse's muscles.  And if you want your horse's muscles to be able to do lots of those eccentric contractions (i.e.isometrics) then you had better build the muscle power to do it.

Simply teaching your horse to trot downhill in a balanced fashion is not enough.  The horse does not merely need to know how to do it.  It also needs to develop the muscles to be able to KEEP doing it for extended distances.  And the rider does not merely need to know how to ride in a balanced fashion going downhill, s/he also needs to develop the muscles to be able to KEEP doing it for extended distances.  And yes, that means REGULAR practice with progressively longer and longer distances and progressively higher and higher speeds.

Here is a link to a website that discusses the concept for human runners:

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/11/training/tips-for-downhill-running_16470

Here is a quote from that article:

"Indeed, when exercise physiologists wish to study exercise-induced muscle damage and DOMS, they almost always use downhill running to cause damage and soreness, because it does so more effectively than most other kinds of exercise."

Trotting downhill works the MUSCLES of your horse very hard (unless you want to just let your horse slam onto its front end), and you will fatigue your horse's muscles quite effectively (and then have to slam onto the front end) if you do not condition those muscles for the exercise.

Trotting downhill works the MUSCLES of the rider very hard (unless you want to make your horse do the work of holding you up as well), and you will fatigue your muscles quite effectively (and then make your horse hold you up too) if you do not condition those muscles for the exercise.

kat
Orange County, Calif.
:|

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[stephanie teeter]

And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage and reining horses?

Braking is not an option in downhill work - if the front legs aren't braking, the hind legs are. I'm not a physicist but that's just common sense.  

And even if there is more muscle involved in the work, there is still work going on - and the hocks are the pivot point for all of that work. 

And the hind fetlocks would be taking the extra strain that the front fetlocks are giving up. 

I totally agree that performance can be enhanced, and that IMO is the gist of what the marathon runner was saying. Not that building downhill muscles can relieve the wear & tear on the body, but that it can make the body more efficient and faster and more enduring (go farther before fatigue sets in).

But it's also not entirely realistic to compare a 2 legged creature to a 4 legged creature. 

Steph

[Ann Hoins]

Dancers often do strength training to help reduce risk of injury. In the same way Dressage or other performance horses would most likely benefit and likely reduce common associated injury with some form of conditioning/strength training.

Ann

---

From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>

To: kat...@att.net
Cc: "ride...@endurance.net" <ride...@endurance.net>

Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:04 PM

Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

[Stephanie Caldwell]

IMO the high incidence of arthritis in the disciplines mentioned has more to do with being started too early, pushed too hard, and other such factors.

I think most endurance people are more inclined to start their horses later and take it slow.

"Brutality begins where skill ends."
"Correctly understood, work at the lunge line is indispensable for rider and horse from the very beginning through the highest levels."
Von Niendorff

[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

The young age at which they are started is indeed a huge factor in the damage that is done--coupled with the fact that they are not gotten fit for the work, either.  Reiners and cutters also have to work from their core, and usually do not get the conditioning to properly gain the strength in those muscles to help to spare their joints.

 

Heidi 

 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

[k s swigart]

> From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>

>
>And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage
>and reining horses?

Well...since this is neither a dressage list nor a reining list, I will be brief. 

But the answer to the question about reining horses can be answered by my post about skiing; although I didn't mention in that post that one of the other reasons that 30 y.o. mogul skiers have bad knees is that they started doing it when they were 6.  However, one of the reasons for the high rate of hock injuries/arthritis in reiners is that so many of them participate in reining futurities, and even if they don't most of them get started way too young for the amount of LATERAL stress that it put on a still forming joint (i.e. the hock, which is not fully formed until 4-5 years old).

And though dressage riders are not here to defend themselves, I contend that there are two reasons for the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage horses.  1) the horses are too big and 2) a huge number of them are not doing dressage "correctly."  But, like I said, this isn't a dressage list, and I have absolutely no intent of discussing the details of that assertion.

Additionally, both reining and dressage horses work almost exclusively in footing (more so for reining horses) that is hard on the hocks.

kat
Orange County, Calif.
:|

[stephanie teeter]

This is a great discussion. (much better than some of the recents).

I totally agree that building muscle and body core strength benefits the horse in downhill work. Reduces fatigue related injury. For sure. Spreads the work load. yes.

But I still agree with the old 'the horse has only so many downhill miles' adage. We can make it easier for them, but it's still wear and tear, and there must be a balance between 'training for the strain' and performance. Repeated downhill training, even done correctly, is going to shorten the life of the joints. Just like cross training is important - weight lifting to build muscles which will be used in running, jumping, etc. as an alternative to building the muscles WHILE you're running, jumping, etc.

Steph

[k s swigart]

> From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>

>Braking is not an option in downhill work - if the front legs aren't
>braking, the hind legs are. I'm not a physicist but that's just
>common sense. And even if there is more muscle involved in the
>work, there is still work going on - and the hocks are the pivot
>point for all of that work. And the hind fetlocks would be taking
>the extra strain that the front fetlocks are giving up. 

At the risk of having everybody's eyes glaze over....

In 1969 James Rooney, DVM wrote the book _The Biomechanics of Lameness in Horses_  In the first paragraph he apologizes "..There will be too much mathematics for some, too much anatomy for other, too little of everything for everybody, and too much theory for all..."

The book is a tough read and needs to be taken in small doses.  It is loaded with complicated physics and calculus, mostly vectors. However, the author, a veterinarian, admits that there is no way to talk about the stresses and forces applied to the locomotion system of a horse without involving yourself in a lot of physics and math.  A horse's locomotion system is a complex system of levers, motors, and springs.  Understanding how these things interact to provide propulsion is EXTREMELY complicated. And it is possible to change the forces imposed and the energy expended by making even minor adjustments in something as simple as moving the placement of the foot by an inch and changing the timing of that placement by a fraction of a second.

It should be obvious to even the least mechanically, mathematically, or physics inclined to understand that just changing from walk to trot (i.e. the order and sequence of the foot falls) substantially changes all the forces on the horse's locomotor system.

So, suffice it to say, that while it may seem like "just common sense" to Steph that the amount of braking is going to be the same whether the front legs or the hind legs are doing it, she is mistaken. 

The math and the physics associated with "proving" this is very complicated.  But I can refer anybody to James Rooney's books (he also is the author of  _The Lame Horse_ which doesn't go into quite as much detail as his biomechanics book so is a bit of an easier read and also very informative).  And James Rooney himself, in the preface to his biomechanics book, refers the reader to his bibliography (i.e. all the other more detailed books that can be read about the subject).

I mention this only to demonstrate that it is categorically false that you cannot change the amount of TOTAL stress put on your horse's locomotor system by training and conditioning it to use the assorted pieces of that locomotor system differently. The good thing is, you don't have to understand the math to accept that using math it can be proven.

If people are interested in other really good books that address this issue without going into the mathematics of the mechanics, I can provide some of those as well.  Hillary Clayton's books _The Dynamic Horse_  and _Conditioning Sport Horses_ are also very good.

kat
Orange County, Calif.

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 9/3/2013 11:04 AM, stephanie teeter wrote:
> hock injuries/arthritis in dressage and reining horses?

Don't know at all about dressage but QH reining horses are started doing
things that stress joints at the age of 2 and are arthritic by 5.

I'm sure that this isn't the only reason but it has to contribute a lot.

Ed

--
Ed & Wendy Hauser 5729 175th Avenue Becker, MN 55308 Ed- (406) 381-5527
Wendy- (406) 544-2926

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 9/3/2013 12:35 PM, k s swigart wrote:
> hat you cannot change the amount of TOTAL stress put on your horse's locomotor system by training and conditioning it to use the assorted pieces o

Even if the total stress does not change, distributing it over more
joints/muscles will decrease the stress on any one joint or muscle.

A crude analogy: Two pickups pulling identical 4 horse LQ gooseneck
trailers stop quickly from 75 mph, while going down a steep mountain
grade. One has properly functioning brakes on the trailer, the other
one doesn't have any. Even though the work done is identical, care to
guess which one stresses brakes more, possibly even to the point of failure?

[Joe Long]

I don't believe that I've ever seen a dressage or reining course that included a hill.  I don't think those activities are comparable to what we do on trails.

stephanie teeter

September 3, 2013 10:04 AM

And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage and reining horses?

[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

To take your crude analogy one step further...guess which one can stop faster, and more safely?  While the biomechanics are different, the analogy is very apt.  Thanks, Ed.

 

Heidi

 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

[Joe Long]

I agree this is a good discussion.  However, I still absolutely reject the idea that a horse has only "so many" downhilll miles.  Proper training and conditioning gives human and equine athletes more longevity, in many ways.  Of course starting too young before bones and joints are sufficiently developed will lead to early disabilities in any athlete, as will over-stressing systems before they are sufficiently conditioned. 

The idea that downhill training will shorten the life of joints is not just false, IMO it is harmful, as the very opposite is true -- proper downhill training and conditioning will add many miles to your horse's sound competition.  This is not only supported by the science, but by the experience that I and others have had.

stephanie teeter

September 3, 2013 10:47 AM

This is a great discussion. (much better than some of the recents).

I totally agree that building muscle and body core strength benefits the horse in downhill work. Reduces fatigue related injury. For sure. Spreads the work load. yes.

But I still agree with the old 'the horse has only so many downhill miles' adage. We can make it easier for them, but it's still wear and tear, and there must be a balance between 'training for the strain' and performance. Repeated downhill training, even done correctly, is going to shorten the life of the joints. Just like cross training is important - weight lifting to build muscles which will be used in running, jumping, etc. as an alternative to building the muscles WHILE you're running, jumping, etc.

Steph

k s swigart

September 3, 2013 10:36 AM

From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>

And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage
and reining horses?

Well...since this is neither a dressage list nor a reining list, I will be brief.  


But the answer to the question about reining horses can be answered by my post about skiing; although I didn't mention in that post that one of the other reasons that 30 y.o. mogul skiers have bad knees is that they started doing it when they were 6.  However, one of the reasons for the high rate of hock injuries/arthritis in reiners is that so many of them participate in reining futurities, and even if they don't most of them get started way too young for the amount of LATERAL stress that it put on a still forming joint (i.e. the hock, which is not fully formed until 4-5 years old).

And though dressage riders are not here to defend themselves, I contend that there are two reasons for the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage horses.  1) the horses are too big and 2) a huge number of them are not doing dressage "correctly."  But, like I said, this isn't a dressage list, and I have absolutely no intent of discussing the details of that assertion.

Additionally, both reining and dressage horses work almost exclusively in footing (more so for reining horses) that is hard on the hocks.

kat
Orange County, Calif.
:|

stephanie teeter

September 3, 2013 10:04 AM

And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage and reining horses?

Braking is not an option in downhill work - if the front legs aren't braking, the hind legs are. I'm not a physicist but that's just common sense.  

And even if there is more muscle involved in the work, there is still work going on - and the hocks are the pivot point for all of that work. 

And the hind fetlocks would be taking the extra strain that the front fetlocks are giving up. 

I totally agree that performance can be enhanced, and that IMO is the gist of what the marathon runner was saying. Not that building downhill muscles can relieve the wear & tear on the body, but that it can make the body more efficient and faster and more enduring (go farther before fatigue sets in).

But it's also not entirely realistic to compare a 2 legged creature to a 4 legged creature. 

Steph

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k s swigart

September 3, 2013 9:52 AM

Steph said:

> Using the hind end properly as a horse runs downhill doesn't eliminate
> the stress and strain, it just transfers it from the front end to the hind end.

Actually, training and conditioning a horse to carry itself on its hind end does reduce the total stress and strain associated with traveling the same distance.  It does not just transfer the strain from the front end to the back end.  And here is why:

Mostly, the horse uses its front legs for BRAKING*, and the heavier on the forehand the horse is, the more braking the front legs will be doing on every stride.

To use an analogy to demonstrate the concept, if you drive your car with the parking brake on, not only will you increase the stress on the brake shoes, you will also increase the amount of fuel you will use to get the same speed and distance from your car.

Transferring your horse's weight from the front end to the back end (whether you are going downhill or not) is the equivalent of releasing the parking brake on your car.

Additionally, if you train you horse to trot downhill in self-carriage, you are transferring MUCH of the work to the muscles of the "core" so you are not just transferring the stress from the joints of the front legs to the hocks, but rather you are transferring the stress from joints to muscles....which is why you CAN condition for it.

kat
Orange County, Calif.

* This, incidentally, is one of the reasons that extended gaits are energy inefficient compared to working gaits.

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[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

Actually, Joe, there is more similarity than you might think, biomechanically.  In all three activities, the key to success and soundness is to have strong core muscles, a well-rounded back, and an ability to properly engage the hindquarters.  A good reiner or dressage horse already has many of the mechanics down to go downhill well.  Just one more reason why dressage (and reining is, in a very real sense, just sped-up cowboy dressage) is such a good cross-training activity for endurance horses...and why training on trails and terrain is also good cross-training for arena events that utilize balance and core muscles...

 

Heidi

 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

From: Joe Long <jl...@chiprider.com>
Date: Tue, September 03, 2013 12:14 pm
To: ride...@endurance.net

I don't believe that I've ever seen a dressage or reining course that included a hill.  I don't think those activities are comparable to what we do on trails.

stephanie teeter

September 3, 2013 10:04 AM

And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage and reining horses?

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
jl...@chiprider.com
A++ G+ PKR+ PEG+ B+ M+

[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

Me, too, Joe.  Unless, of course, you want to be facetious and state that when the horse dies of old age and you have to dig a hole for that last 6 feet "downhill," at that point he certainly has no more "downhill" miles in him...  I've never seen a horse that went downhill properly that injured himself or limited his career by doing so.

 

Heidi

 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting
From: Joe Long <jl...@chiprider.com>

Date: Tue, September 03, 2013 12:25 pm
To: ride...@endurance.net

I agree this is a good discussion.  However, I still absolutely reject the idea that a horse has only "so many" downhilll miles.  Proper training and conditioning gives human and equine athletes more longevity, in many ways.  Of course starting too young before bones and joints are sufficiently developed will lead to early disabilities in any athlete, as will over-stressing systems before they are sufficiently conditioned. 

The idea that downhill training will shorten the life of joints is not just false, IMO it is harmful, as the very opposite is true -- proper downhill training and conditioning will add many miles to your horse's sound competition.  This is not only supported by the science, but by the experience that I and others have had.

stephanie teeter

September 3, 2013 10:47 AM

This is a great discussion. (much better than some of the recents).

I totally agree that building muscle and body core strength benefits the horse in downhill work. Reduces fatigue related injury. For sure. Spreads the work load. yes.

But I still agree with the old 'the horse has only so many downhill miles' adage. We can make it easier for them, but it's still wear and tear, and there must be a balance between 'training for the strain' and performance. Repeated downhill training, even done correctly, is going to shorten the life of the joints. Just like cross training is important - weight lifting to build muscles which will be used in running, jumping, etc. as an alternative to building the muscles WHILE you're running, jumping, etc.

Steph

k s swigart

September 3, 2013 10:36 AM

From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>

And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage
and reining horses?

Well...since this is neither a dressage list nor a reining list, I will be brief.  


But the answer to the question about reining horses can be answered by my post about skiing; although I didn't mention in that post that one of the other reasons that 30 y.o. mogul skiers have bad knees is that they started doing it when they were 6.  However, one of the reasons for the high rate of hock injuries/arthritis in reiners is that so many of them participate in reining futurities, and even if they don't most of them get started way too young for the amount of LATERAL stress that it put on a still forming joint (i.e. the hock, which is not fully formed until 4-5 years old).

And though dressage riders are not here to defend themselves, I contend that there are two reasons for the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage horses.  1) the horses are too big and 2) a huge number of them are not doing dressage "correctly."  But, like I said, this isn't a dressage list, and I have absolutely no intent of discussing the details of that assertion.

Additionally, both reining and dressage horses work almost exclusively in footing (more so for reining horses) that is hard on the hocks.

kat
Orange County, Calif.
:|

stephanie teeter

September 3, 2013 10:04 AM

And what about the high rates of hock injuries/arthritis in dressage and reining horses?

Braking is not an option in downhill work - if the front legs aren't braking, the hind legs are. I'm not a physicist but that's just common sense.  

And even if there is more muscle involved in the work, there is still work going on - and the hocks are the pivot point for all of that work. 

And the hind fetlocks would be taking the extra strain that the front fetlocks are giving up. 

I totally agree that performance can be enhanced, and that IMO is the gist of what the marathon runner was saying. Not that building downhill muscles can relieve the wear & tear on the body, but that it can make the body more efficient and faster and more enduring (go farther before fatigue sets in).

But it's also not entirely realistic to compare a 2 legged creature to a 4 legged creature. 

Steph

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k s swigart

September 3, 2013 9:52 AM

Steph said:

> Using the hind end properly as a horse runs downhill doesn't eliminate
> the stress and strain, it just transfers it from the front end to the hind end.

Actually, training and conditioning a horse to carry itself on its hind end does reduce the total stress and strain associated with traveling the same distance.  It does not just transfer the strain from the front end to the back end.  And here is why:

Mostly, the horse uses its front legs for BRAKING*, and the heavier on the forehand the horse is, the more braking the front legs will be doing on every stride.

To use an analogy to demonstrate the concept, if you drive your car with the parking brake on, not only will you increase the stress on the brake shoes, you will also increase the amount of fuel you will use to get the same speed and distance from your car.

Transferring your horse's weight from the front end to the back end (whether you are going downhill or not) is the equivalent of releasing the parking brake on your car.

Additionally, if you train you horse to trot downhill in self-carriage, you are transferring MUCH of the work to the muscles of the "core" so you are not just transferring the stress from the joints of the front legs to the hocks, but rather you are transferring the stress from joints to muscles....which is why you CAN condition for it.

kat
Orange County, Calif.

* This, incidentally, is one of the reasons that extended gaits are energy inefficient compared to working gaits.

[Sherry Morse]

Different kind of area as far as hills, but crosstraining (at least dressage, I'm not a big reining fan) can be beneficial for the endurance horse and vice versa.  I wrote an article for the local dressage group's newsletter on crosstraining, but the short version is that the muscles the horse develops through proper riding in the ring can help them go longer and with less stress out on the trail and doing hills and going through varied terrain out on the trail helps make all that arena work a lot easier. 

Sherry in PA

---

From: Joe Long <jl...@chiprider.com>
To: ride...@endurance.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 2:14 PM

Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

[Lisa Salas]

I don't know about trotting down hill on four legs but running down
hills on two legs can put stress on your knees. However, if you
practice and build up the muscles around the knees, the knees can do
much better. Now that I am living in "rolling to quite hilly" terrain
and coming from flat, flat, Florida I see the difference. In 2011 when
I did my first 50K in the Ozarks of Missouri and Arkansas, I almost
couldn't run down another hill in the end. The outside of my knees
just burned. Then I did another 50K in flat, flat Florida shortly
after and my knees didn't burn at all. So when I came to TN and
started running, my knees burned for about a month, and now that I
have put in some miles I have no problem. Well, at least not with my
knees. :)

I believe that anyone can run but not everyone should. Any horse can
do endurance, with or without hills,but not every horse should. The
people I see that have the most problems, didn't get them from
running, they were just born that way. Bow legged, more torso than leg
length, pigeon toed or just plain poor posture when they run. They
will have problems no matter how much conditioning they do. Same with
horses.

Of course, runners and riders keep running and riding, so they blame
the running or riding for their, or their horse's injuries. I don't
think that people and horses who are born with "not so perfect"
conformation shouldn't enjoy the sport of their choice, just build up
to it and know their limitations.

Lisa Salas, the odd farm

[Sara]

The eventing world is all about cross training since that is what they basically do - jumping, dressage and cross country. Many use hill workouts as a basic principle for developing proper muscle. Few seem to do long trot sessions down hills, but they do a lot of intervals both up and down hills. I've even seen programs use backing up and down hills. . Personally, I avoid trotting down steep hills because a.) my horse isn't all that balanced just yet and b) neither am I. I like running with my mare on the trail and do most down hills on foot to give us both a break.  

[Diane Trefethen]

No one who feels that trotting downhill is just a matter of practicing has
addressed the problem of loss of cartilage. Do you contend that none is ever
lost? Do you believe it can be replaced? If you think either of these ideas are
valid, I respectfully disagree.

It's great if you start with a horse that has more than the average amount of
cartilage in its joints, but that's no help for those of us with average horses.

The limiting factor in young horses is bone, ligament and tendon development,
all of which take years, not months to develop. With joints the limiting factor
is not bone, tendon, muscle but cartilage. While you CAN build a base of the
former over years, you CANNOT build up cartilage over the years. It always
declines, even in couch potato horses, much less those asked to trot and lope
for 50+ miles on the flat, never mind going downhill.

So, if you can explain how a horse that trots downhill, during thousands of
miles of conditioning and thousands of miles of performing, doesn't lose any
cartilage in its front legs, I will agree with you that a horse doesn't have a
limited number of downhill miles.

[he...@sagehillcmk.com]

If you have paid attention to the biomechanical discussion so far, you would understand that there is no more stress on the front legs going downhill (and in really efficient horses, maybe even less stress) than there is going on the flat. 

 

While you raise a valid point about cartilage, that point is valid for ALL miles, not just downhill miles.  (Gee, maybe we need to quit riding them altogether.)  But yes, conditioning helps the cartilage, too--because exercise increases the production of synovial fluid, which helps to keep the cartilage healthy.  It also keeps the synovial fluid moving--which is also beneficial.  (...and which is why exercise in moderation is helpful in treating arthritis.) 

 

Quite frankly, unless a horse is a complete "natural" at going downhill anyway, most horses rely upon the rider's cues to round and engage, so the horse with the rider OFF is more apt to land hard on his front end and damage cartilage than is the horse who is ridden down, and properly set up by the rider.  I've seen my own less talented horses (who WILL go downhill properly engaged if ridden down) begin to string out and pound in the front when led downhill. 

 

A horse with any aptitude for downhill work which is trained and conditioned to be able to utilize that aptitude will usually have as many or more downhill miles "in him" than just plain trotting on the flat--unless you ride on the flat with the same sort of core intensity that one needs to do dressage well...

 

Heidi  

 

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Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

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[stephanie teeter]

> >>
> So, suffice it to say, that while it may seem like "just common sense" to Steph that the amount of braking is going to be the same whether the front legs or the hind legs are doing it, she is mistaken.
> >>

Perhaps the mechanics of braking are different and the energy required to check the speed, but the horse is still countering the force of gravity and forward motion, which are constants no matter which parts of the horse are engaged. I will grant that the stress on each joint can be altered considerably, and the efficiency of 'braking' can be increased or decreased, etc. (btw I much prefer the analogy of levers, motors and springs to that of an emergency brake).

Most importantly, I do not believe that all of this translates to the degree that you suggest in an endurance event, where terrain varies, speed varies, footing varies, and we're talking 50 to 100 miles here, not a nice controlled downhill trot to illustrate how it should be done. A mis-step in a downhill trot will be more likely to cause strain/injury than a mis-step during a trot on the flat. That's just the reality of our sport. It's simply riskier and without a doubt more stressful because of the angle of the horse (it's center of gravity) and the additional force of gravity and speed.

I will continue to believe that I should train my horse to do his best in any condition (up, down, flat) - but that it is going to be more stressful on the joints and muscles and feet to carry weight downhill than it is on the flat or uphill, and ride accordingly - during each ride, and during each career.

Steph

>
> The math and the physics associated with "proving" this is very complicated. But I can refer anybody to James Rooney's books (he also is the author of _The Lame Horse_ which doesn't go into quite as much detail as his biomechanics book so is a bit of an easier read and also very informative). And James Rooney himself, in the preface to his biomechanics book, refers the reader to his bibliography (i.e. all the other more detailed books that can be read about the subject).
>
> I mention this only to demonstrate that it is categorically false that you cannot change the amount of TOTAL stress put on your horse's locomotor system by training and conditioning it to use the assorted pieces of that locomotor system differently. The good thing is, you don't have to understand the math to accept that using math it can be proven.
>
> If people are interested in other really good books that address this issue without going into the mathematics of the mechanics, I can provide some of those as well. Hillary Clayton's books _The Dynamic Horse_ and _Conditioning Sport Horses_ are also very good.
>
> kat
> Orange County, Calif.
>

[Nathan Hoyt]

First and foremost, arthritis is inevitable in all species.  If you don't get it, it is because you died too soon.  A horse is designed to feed the coyotes at around 12-15 years of age.  We can keep them competing well in to their 20's now.  I hate doing a prepurchase on an 18 y/o dressage horse.  If I can't make him lame on at least 2 legs, I'm not doing my job right.

Proper technique, herein called collection, in frame, etc, does reduce the braking effect dramatically.  Braking effect is created by the foot striking the ground in front of the center of gravity.  By teaching the horse to tighten its core, drop it haunches and keep its feet under its center of gravity will going downhill, the braking force is reduced to no more than a normal trot.  The horse has to take much shorter strides to do this.  As a result, most slow down.  Those that shorten their stride and increase their tempo on the downhills to maintain or gain speed are the smoking fast horses that people brag about for the rest of their lives.

Hock injuries are due to twisting forces, much like knee injuries, hence the predilection for disciplines that pivot like dressage, reining and the all time hock trashing champion, cutting horses.  Dressage horses don't pivot as fast and hard as reiners and cutters, but they put so much power into each step that the slightest degree of pronation or supination on each stride creates a significant torsion across the hock.  I can't explain the fetlock, pastern and coffin joint issues of dressage horses as easily, but I only saw them in warmbloods and the occasional old thoroughbred that were really good at dressage.  While dressage is centered on collection, a skilled horse has the ability to dramatically exaggerate its movement well beyond normal range of motion while still maintaining collection.  The schooling quarter horses that did dressage did not develop those issues to the same extent.  I hypothesize that the power and action of the truly skilled dressage horse hyperextend those joints both when loaded and unloaded, resulting in arthritis.  It is a unique pattern of injury that I do not see in disciplines that are characterized by fatigue injury like race horses and endurance horses.

Nate

---

From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>
To: kat...@att.net

Cc: "ride...@endurance.net" <ride...@endurance.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:04 PM

Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

[Nathan Hoyt]

Thin cartilage is caused by ticking off the joint either by repetitive concussion or tension on the joint capsule or catastrophic injury.  We all agree on that.  However, repetitive concussion should be mitigated by training proper technique and building the necessary muscles NOT by avoidance of the task.  This is a slow gradual process, much slower than building aerobic capacity.  Few of us have the necessary attention span.  That being said, no matter, what you do, all athletes will develop arthritis with age (not necessarily miles).  I feel that an 18 y/o horse that doesn't have cartilage loss on some articular surface hasn't worked hard enough.  If you don't want arthritis, sit on the couch and eat Cheetos.  Diabetes might kill you before your knees blow out... ...maybe.

There are times when you should walk your horse downhill because he is too tired to perform the proper movement.  That is good sense.  However, I feel you increase his risk of injury by complete avoidance of trotting downhill.  The best athletes are always the ones that can push themselves hard while retaining the sense not to push themselves too hard.  A black and white "never" answer is flawed logic IMO.

Nate

---

From: Diane Trefethen <tr...@wakerobinranch.com>
To: ride...@endurance.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:59 PM

Subject: Re: [RC] Downhill trotting

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[karen...@shaw.ca]

Steph,
Can you please either remove me from this list or tell me how to do it? I can't stand it anymore.

I've got lots of useful information from ridecamp over the years but some of you just take all the fun of it. Someone asks a simple question and all hell breaks loose. IMO some of you need to just get out And freaking ride your horses and quit over analyzing.

Maybe too bad for me but I'm outta here

Karen
Sent from my iPhone

On 2013-09-03, at 10:35 AM, k s swigart <kat...@att.net> wrote:

>> From: stephanie teeter <steph....@gmail.com>
>
>
>> Braking is not an option in downhill work - if the front legs aren't
>> braking, the hind legs are. I'm not a physicist but that's just
>> common sense. And even if there is more muscle involved in the
>> work, there is still work going on - and the hocks are the pivot
>> point for all of that work. And the hind fetlocks would be taking
>> the extra strain that the front fetlocks are giving up.
>
>

> At the risk of having everybody's eyes glaze over....
>
> In 1969 James Rooney, DVM wrote the book _The Biomechanics of Lameness in Horses_ In the first paragraph he apologizes "..There will be too much mathematics for some, too much anatomy for other, too little of everything for everybody, and too much theory for all..."
>
> The book is a tough read and needs to be taken in small doses. It is loaded with complicated physics and calculus, mostly vectors. However, the author, a veterinarian, admits that there is no way to talk about the stresses and forces applied to the locomotion system of a horse without involving yourself in a lot of physics and math. A horse's locomotion system is a complex system of levers, motors, and springs. Understanding how these things interact to provide propulsion is EXTREMELY complicated. And it is possible to change the forces imposed and the energy expended by making even minor adjustments in something as simple as moving the placement of the foot by an inch and changing the timing of that placement by a fraction of a second.
>
> It should be obvious to even the least mechanically, mathematically, or physics inclined to understand that just changing from walk to trot (i.e. the order and sequence of the foot falls) substantially changes all the forces on the horse's locomotor system.
>

[SMW]

<<2) a huge number of them are not doing dressage "correctly."  But, like I said, this isn't a dressage list, and I have absolutely no intent of discussing the details of that assertion.>>

YES!!!!!

Most "dressage" riders are fixated on the horses head and truly have no clue about self carriage.  All the dressage rehab horses I have "fixed" were horses so soured from someone hauling on their mouths they either refused to go forward, bucked bolted or reared.

A well balanced horse in any discipline is wonderful to watch or ride. They are just very rare.

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