What factors contribute to a quick Pulse down?

[vccf...@aol.com]

I crewed a ride for the first time this weekend and was amazed at the horses that came trotting in and immediately after went straight to the vet and met criteria.  I have ridden a few rides in the past 10 years and my horses would always need a cool down period to meet criteria.

My newest mount was able to go quickly into the vet, but we were on our first 30 mile LD and were going slow, as this was a complete learning experience and he just turned 5.  I plan on 2 more LDs this year and then some slow 50s next year.

I assume this is a factor of genetics, diet and conditioning, but, what part does each play and when and how do you know if your horse has got it?


Mark

[endurancehorsemt]

Probably the only way you know for sure your horse has "got it" is to just "do it"!

In my one-horse-study and relatively limited experience (5 years and about 10 rides but more experience with problems than some more seasoned riders :) while there are things you can do (walk in, loosen cinch, sponge, etc) some horses tend to pulse down quickly and some don't. My horse started out a race-brained maniac that wouldn't drink and since resolving that have had problem after problem at rides (sore foot, sprained ankle, sore back, etc) but never an issue with pulsing down even when we were pulled lame. If anyone should have had issues pulsing down it should have been us. Earlier on I don't think she was really fit enough either - now we show up very fit but HR is about the same. Also whether I trot in or hop off, loosen the cinch and walk in the last 1/4 mile, make little difference. Granted, we don't race, we are more mid to back-of-pack but our fastest ride we pulsed down just as quickly. 

These factors make me think it's as much the horse as what you do with the horse. So I think the fact that your horse pulsed right down even on a slow LD is a good sign. There are horses that have been around a while that don't pulse down quickly even on a slower ride. More with the heavier breeds but sometimes Arabs too.  

Karen in MT

Flunking rides and still pulsing down :) 

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[Lynn White]

Generally, bigger muscled horses will take longer than sleek Arabians to pulse down.  But there are things one can do to help the horse mentally.

I think a big part of quick pulse down is just the horse learning the game.  They learn that they are just supposed to chill out and relax.  I've talked to really competitive riders and they tell me they  work with their horses on this.  It's also good to practice trotting out your horse.  Just about every time I ride I get off and trot-out my horse before we unsaddle.  It's a queue to them to know they are done with something.  It seems to help with CRI.  I'm not a competitive rider but these skills that the horse learns makes getting though the vet checks much easier on everyone. 

I have found that when my horse is focused on me and I am calm, he'll be calm. I've learned this the hard way.   Some people like to bring the buddy horse to the vet check, but I think this is a bad idea.  The horse gets conditioned to expect his buddy to show up and won't pulse down unless he can see his buddy.    

Cheers,

Lynn

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 5:57 AM, vccfarms via ridecamp at Endurance.Net <ride...@endurance.net> wrote:

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[Diane Trefethen]

On 9/2/2015 4:57 AM, vccfarms via ridecamp at Endurance.Net wrote:
> I crewed a ride for the first time this weekend and was amazed at the
> horses that came trotting in and immediately after went straight to the vet

> and met criteria...

>
> I assume this is a factor of genetics, diet and conditioning, but, what
> part does each play and when and how do you know if your horse has got it?
>

That is a good question except I would substitute “who and what the horse
is” for “genetics.” Genetics is important when you are looking to buy a
horse with endurance potential. Buying a horse from a program with a
reputation for breeding good endurance horses increases your chances that
the horse you get will have the qualities to do well in the sport. However,
after you already have a horse, his genetics become unimportant. As they
say, “You can’t ride bloodlines.” The horse’s personality and conformation
replace genetics as a criterion. Therefore, go with your gut when you look
to buy a horse. Handle it. See how it responds to you. Don’t worry about
green. That you can work on. Worry about stupid and/or obstinate. Avoid a
horse that is over reactive. You want to spend your time teaching a new
horse, not spend years overcoming a critical personality flaw.

The following reflects my experience with the two, serious endurance horses
I have competed on. Others with more experience than I may have a different
and/or better take on the subject.

Once you have a horse, the first criterion is set. The horse is what he is.

Diet is easy. It always follows your conditioning/training program. To
prepare a horse to recover quickly at a vet check you must condition him up
to that level of fitness and you cannot do that without a diet of good
forage and enough calories to keep him happy and in good weight as you work
him. At the start of your program you will be going slowly. If going slowly
causes him to lose weight, you need to increase the amount of and/or
improve the quality of his diet. As you increase conditioning demands on
your horse, you will need to adjust his diet to match those demands. The
base I use is the best oat hay I can find - flavorful stems and small heads
of grain. Straight Alfalfa at night when it’s really cold and an occasional
bale of Teff or rye just for a bit of variety. I supplement calories with
grain, corn oil and either a senior feed or LMF Gold. Everyone has a
different idea of what is the best way to add calories. Use what your horse
likes and keeps him in good weight.

Once your horse has reached the goal you have set, for example averaging
7mph at a ride and coming into vet checks with a pulse that reaches 60bpm
within 5 minutes, keeping him there is easier than getting him there. Two,
fun, 1 to 2 hr rides/week plus a long in time (not necessarily distance)
ride on the weekend will do the trick. Substituting horse camping for the
weekend ride is good as is any new and different experience you can find.
Horses with good minds get bored and they like it when you pique their
interest, mix things up. A horse that always has to be fed at exactly 7am
and 5pm or has to go exactly 2 hrs each time out or is inflexible in any
other way will not do as well at an endurance ride as a horse that can take
things as they come. My goal is not just to do things differently but to
have my horse like it :)

Diane Trefethen
AERC #2691

[stephanie teeter]

Mark - I highly recommend riding with a heart rate monitor (if you aren't already). A horse that is fit for the work will pulse down to 60 within 10 minutes. If it takes more than 10 minutes, conditioning is inadequate for that level of work.  

The same pretty much applies to pulsing down at a ride. I think that almost any horse can be conditioned to pulse down right away at a vetcheck as long as it is working within it's level of conditioning. 

The key is conditioning - and IMO this is where genetics and body type comes in, and the ultimate endurance fitness a horse can reach.  

Then it becomes a matter of the amount of fat a horse is carrying (heat retention) and the amount of slow-twitch muscle fibers. (These are a longer thinner muscle fiber. ) Arabians have a higher percentage of slow-twitch fibers than other breeds. Quarter horses have the lowest amount of slow-twitch, and a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers.  (these are a bunchier muscle fiber). 

The slow-twitch are suited for aerobic work (O2 burning endurance work) which is the most efficient. Muscles can do this for a long time. 

The fast-twitch fibers are suited for bursts of speed and the metabolism is primarily anaerobic (burning glucose-glycogen which produces lactic acid and depletes energy sources more quickly). 

So for endurance, the arabian breed is much better suited - more of the appropriate muscle fiber type for long distance work - aerobic work.  This is why all the top competing endurance horses are arabians, or arabian crosses. Thoroughbreds also have a high amount of slow-twitch, but not as much as arabians. 

The other good thing about riding with a HRM is that you can tell by the heart rate whether your horse is working aerobically (efficiently) or anaerobically (inefficiently). It depends on the horse but generally when it's working at 150 or more beats per minute, it has moved into the anaerobic threshold - lactic acid will start building up, and glycogen stores will become depleted.  With conditioning this threshold (150 more or less) can be raised, but that's a pretty good rule of thumb. 

Steph

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[Firedancefarms]

I'll have to agree with the genetics...as a start.  We've trained lots of  them, and I can tell you at that first vet check whether I have a good one or a great one...conditioning and rider being the same.  Pulsing down quickly..there are tricks..but a natural low pulse coming in to a vet check is different.  We've found the Russian lines to have excellent pulses...dropping to 44 very quickly.  And some drop fast but never very low, such as my saddlebred/Arab mare, and some seem to be low all the time.  I've had some very excited horses pulse in at 44, so haven't seen much there.  Mary Mosshammer used to get my stallion down in a jiffy by goo gooing over it.  He just loved her.

But for the most part, I've found two reasons they won't come down:

1.  They are too hot.

2.  They have to pee!

Louise

 

Louise Burton 

Firedance Farms Arabians 

http://www.firedancefarms.net

---

[Truman Prevatt]

__
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
H. L. Mencken

> On Sep 2, 2015, at 14:50, stephanie teeter <st...@endurance.net> wrote:
>
> Mark - I highly recommend riding with a heart rate monitor (if you aren't already). A horse that is fit for the work will pulse down to 60 within 10 minutes. If it takes more than 10 minutes, conditioning is inadequate for that level of work.
>
> The same pretty much applies to pulsing down at a ride. I think that almost any horse can be conditioned to pulse down right away at a vetcheck as long as it is working within it's level of conditioning.
>
> The key is conditioning - and IMO this is where genetics and body type comes in, and the ultimate endurance fitness a horse can reach.

Heart rate monitors are wonderful - especially when training and competing a new horse. However, once you know your horse a HRM is not quite as important. In reality any horse in adequate shape to participate in moderate weather conditions should be able to trot into the check, get a drink and down to 60 within 5 minutes - 10 max. I always pull tack just because I want my horse to be as cooled as possible when I go back out. Both of my main horses were trained that as long as that saddle was on - they weren’t ready to relax. So my routine was trot up till I can see the timer, hop off, pull out my card, loosen the girth as the timer does their thing, stop by the water and let the horse drink, go to my spot rip off tack and put on a cooler if necessary or a blanket if necessary and head to the vet. That would take less than 50 minutes and by the time I got the the pulse box, my horse would be down - normally between 48 and 56.

If it were really hot - I would use water to cool the horse. A few extra minutes up front - can make a lot of difference when you are ready to go back out.

If a horse takes more than 10 minutes at a check and the weather is not hot and humid I would wonder about one of two things - first the speed. If the speed wasn’t too fast then the conditioning level for the horse.

None of this has anything to do with Arabs or non-Arabs. My first horse finished 6 of 6 100’s and 32 of 33 endurance rides combined - won a ride, ran a 3:40 - 50 (and yes it was 50) and won BC and best vet score at that ride. One that particular ride she went from timer to meting pulse in a total of less than 2 minutes combined at three checks. Her breeding - 100% Tennessee Walking Horse (who happened to have a 26 bpm resting heart rate). My other horse (the Jbird) - my decade team partner - while maybe not as talented never the less was rock solid and we would tort in and be a pulse within 50 minutes without really trying. If it were important to get him to the pulse gate quicker - it would not have been a problem.

The key is conditioning and experience.

Truman

[endurancehorsemt]

Although the heavier breeds *tend* to have more issues cooling/pulsing down, I agree with Truman, they don't have to be an Arab to pulse down quickly. My horse mentioned above is a TB, although she is smaller built about 15.2 and 1140 lbs. Her resting HR is 42, not particularly low. 

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[Bruce Weary]

I think another important factor that will affect a horse's recovery is how much and how often the horse has dipped into his anaerobic "well." There are physiologic changes

that occur in the anaerobic phase that eventually lead to fatigue, of the cardiac muscle, causing it to become less efficient, and it beats faster to move the same amount of 

blood for cooling and oxygenation of tissues. Obviously, a fitter horse can withstand more anaerobic episodes, and can run longer aerobically, as well. My friend Troy Eckard reminded

me of the importance of getting off the horse occasionally and hiking or jogging along side him for a while. It refreshes the horse to be relieved of the rider's weight, and leads to a more energetic horse and better recoveries over the course of the ride.       Bruce Weary

[vccf...@aol.com]

Thanks for the tips and info. I ride with a HRM, sometimes I am too fixated on it, and my Arab is young. I am pleased with his progress so far. We practice trot out after training rides and I whisper sweet nothings to him. Sounds like I'm doing what I need to. 

Thank you

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

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[Kathy Mayeda]

I don't think this was mentioned before, but most people I know would get off the horse and walk the last little bit into the vet check, so part of the recovery happens before they even get there.

K.

[Truman Prevatt]

The point about anaerobic threshold is I think very important. Because of a lot of reasons - a lot having to do with lack of experience of the horse or maybe rider too many often partake of the anaerobic juices early in a ride and sets themselves up for a long day later on.  The other point is, however,  at some point horses might need to dip into the anaerobic well - like a long steep climb up a mountain and they should be able to do that.   So if you are going to do something on a ride - you better train for it or in other words never try something on a ride you have not trained to do.  So at some point after the horse has a good base, training techniques such as interval training or Fartlek are a good idea.  They will acclimate the system so they can did into the anaerobic well from time to time and recover.  Tom Ivers was right about that. 

I remember not so fondly when I was running and the coach switched me to the mile from the half mile so our miler could build up his speed.  The mile and half mile are vastly different races.  The 400 is basically a long sprint where a high cruising speed is a must.  The mile is really the first distance race where one has to manage their race.  The 800 or half mile is somewhere in between but in reality relies more on speed than management. In other words speed can make up for a lot of bone headed decisions made in the race - which was my motto ;-).  I came close to killing myself my first mile in competition.  I won but was barfing my guts out at the finish holding off a couple of charging runners.  

Coach told me afterwards that I needed to develop some patients in running the mile and I ran the first quarter much too fast and emptied the tank for the last two quarters.  He also gave me some coaching and the only hint that made the mile tolerable (never really liked it) until John and I switched back - that was “your fastest split should be your third quarter.  By then your body is good and warmed up and working efficiently and you put a lot of stress on the others in the race to keep up.  Do not take off sprinting but quicken the pace.  In other words you first half mile is the warm up for the last half mile.

I carried that over in the endurance riding.  If I was ever close to top 10 by the time I hit about 30 miles or so, that’s when I would quicken my pace a little (assuming my horse was doing well).  I would save him the first 30 for that point.  If we were in striking distance - then I would let her/him (depending on which one) out a little.  If not we would just get around.  It is amazing how many rides I passed a large number (10 to 15 at times) tired horses the last 10 miles.  However, that is how we trained.  Train like you want to ride and ride like you have trained.  

Truman

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[ride...@juno.com]

I ride towards in about the 5th place thru 10th place speeds (once a horse is fit) and pretty much just strip my saddle and walk straight in. I think the biggest factor is keeping the horse's core temperature down. That means sponging a lot on trail, slowing down on long climbs, but not dogging it along in the sun either.

Angie McGhee
____________________________________________________________
Protect what matters
Floods can happen anywhere. Learn your risk and find an agent today.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/55e85b67c65ce5b675912st01vuc

[Bobbie Brown]

All the contributors on RC...thank you for conclusive explanations on ​an endurance horse for recovery when doing a ride.  Makes so much sense.  When I am able to do endurance again I will do condition differently.

Bobbie Brown

[Joe Long]

This is generally a good practice.  I would usually get off and run with the horse while he's trotting, then walk a bit at the very end.  It requires some finesse to do it optimally -- you don't want to lose more time by slowing down than you'll gain by pulsing down more quickly.  I tried to time it so that other than stripping the tack I went straight to the pulse check and would be just down on arrival.

Truman made good points, including always training at home for what you will be doing on a ride.  That is why I always included trotting downhill in my conditioning.  I'm convinced that helped Kahlil earn his 11,500 miles.  Over most of the distance if we were going either uphill or downhill at a speed that I could match on foot, I'd be on foot.  Then when I needed to pull away from other riders and we came to a downhill I could move out safely because he was trained and conditioned for it.

Kathy Mayeda

September 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM

I don't think this was mentioned before, but most people I know would get off the horse and walk the last little bit into the vet check, so part of the recovery happens before they even get there.

K.

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
jl...@chiprider.com
 

[Truman Prevatt]

I trained mostly in deep sugar sand.  The old mare was naturally well balanced and naturally collected and was very good on down hills.  It may have been that she was gaited and would transition into a fast gait down hills rather than trot. She also liked to use an easy collected rolling lope on hills.  I trained galloping uphills and then trotting (or gaiting whichever chose chose) or cantering down hills.  I did that religiously on our once a week long training ride.  

I never gave in a moments thought about coming downhills at faster than a walk, unless the footing was iffy, e.g. muddy, bad washout, etc.  On rides on steeps I would tail and given her fast walk we made good time and she was carrying less uphill.  I did a HRM comparison on her going up a steep climb.  I checked it before I got off and then I checked it while I was tailing - the difference was night and day - like hauling my butt up in the saddle she ran about 50 bpm higher (this was steep) than when I was on the ground.  That also means she was building up a higher heat load with me in the saddle.  That was enough for me.  

I have heard riders complain that their horses always go faster at a beginning of a ride than they do on training rides “at home” and then they in the next breath wonder why they were tired at 40 miles and they had to walk.  

Truman

"Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies."  Friedrich Nietzsche 

[Shannon Loomis]

We actually train much faster at home than we ever go at a ride. And we have very steep hills. It makes a difference. 

Shannon Loomis

QED Farm - Sport Morgans

Pleasant Creek, WV

[Lynn White]

I can't run anymore so my trick for giving the horse a break is to just find a nice grassy place along the trail and let them eat for 5-10 minutes. When they do come into the vet hold they don't seem so desperate to find a bite to eat.   Avoid  anaerobic heart rate as much as possible and find the optimum rate that the horse can do.  This is easy to find because it is the pace where the horse is the smoothest and most effortless.  I've found that sometimes the horse spends as much energy going too slow as he does going faster than his optimum pace.  I do those two things and my horse is usually down coming in.

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 9/3/2015 9:37 AM, ride...@juno.com wrote:

 I think the biggest factor is keeping the horse's core temperature down. That means sponging a lot on trail, slowing down on long climbs, but not dogging it along in the sun either.

Here the weather, particularly the DEW POINT (humidity), makes a big difference.  Personal preference factors in also.  For years with Ranger in the west with low dew points I would just lead him in for 1/4 mile and be down.  In the MW when the dew point was high I could run faster by coming in fast and sponging.  For those used to running in areas with low dew points, I don't mean just putting a damp sponge of water on the horse but using lots, say a half gallon which is removed using a sweat scraper and repeating again and again.  If the dew point is high and no wind present water will insulate the horse and has to be removed to cool the horse.

Stevie Ray presents a different problem than Ranger.  He pants at the drop of a hat, and even in ID would not cool, at the speeds we run, unless I put on a lot of water.  A couple of times this got me in trouble with the vets.  I came in, sponged him, got his pulse down (~56 and falling rapidly), and went to the vet.  When the vet examined him he was still panting.  Vet was sure he would collapse momentarily.  In the MW vets don't worry about a panting horse, they know he will complete the cooling during the hold.

My point is that horses are different and rides are different.  One must figure out what works for your horse and your area.

By the way, I always strip tack period at almost all stops*.  I am firmly convinced that the PITA of re-tacking is worthwhile as the horse does cool faster, you get to look and see that no tack galls are developing and they quickly  learn that it is now time to chill out and relax.

Ed

*Exception:  Sometimes during a cold rain (~35 F) I have left the saddle on and blanketed on top.  It did almost cost me a completion one time when a saddle blanket had bunched and a gall was developing. 

--
Ed & Wendy Hauser
5729 175th Ave.
Becker, MN 55308

Ed: (406) 381-5527
Wendy: (406) 544-2926

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 9/3/2015 Angie McGee wrote:

That means sponging a lot on trail

Another example of regional differences.  In the wetter areas of the country sponging opportunities abound, in many desert or mountain rides not enough to make a real difference.

Ed

[Truman Prevatt]

You obviously have never ridden behind Angie.  If you do you would experience watching perfection with a sponge.  She can hit a 4 inch mud puddle from 20 feet at a dead gallop, laying that puppy on it as she approaches and pulling it up as she passes by 

and sponge on the fly.  She handles a sponge like an experienced fly fisherman handles a fly rod ;-)!  

Truman

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[deser...@aol.com]

HI Steph,

I haven't found much info on this ride on your website, and would like to know if it's suitable for a horse's first 25?  Does it have a lot of elevation change?  How's the footing?  Is there an out vet check? 

I have a Rick & Carol Brand-bred mare that I got from Trish Frahm, and it seems fitting that your ride by her first LD--just like coming home!  She did the 18 mile trail ride at Milwaukee RR Trail, and I had a lot more horse left, even after she paced all night because it was her first time camping out.  She ate & drank good, and had no problems even on the bypass which has 2" rock for about 1.5-2 miles out and back. 

I haven't made up my mind to come, yet.  It's a long way for an LD, but I'd kinda like to give it a try.  I think the horse will do fine, but I haven't ridden that far since the last time I broke my back, so I'm not sure I'll do so good.

Thanks, jeri

[Carla Richardson]

I'm not Steph ;) but I think you should go, I went last year for the 50. 

Carla

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[stephanie teeter]

Hi Jeri - I'd call the LD 'moderate' . There are a couple technical sections on the first loop - some sandy wash, and a steep climb up a ridge line. It's not a flat Milwauke RR Trail!

I'm doing the map this morning, will get the website updated. 

If the weather looks to be wet we might change the trail, so nothing is definite at this point!

Steph