When People Vote with Their Feet (was: Dead or Alive?)

[k s swigart]

Char said:

 

> I did not renew my membership for 2017 because AERC

> refuses to take a hard stand.

> 

> I was a member for 20 years - many years I didn’t compete

> in AERC but still supported the organization.

> 

> No more. I am done.

 

It would be wise for the AERC to take note of this statement and recognize that it probably represents just the tip of the iceberg with respect to the fallout from its refusal to “take a hard stand.”

 

For every one person who lets you know that they have voted with their feet and why, there are countless others who simply leave…and leave you in ignorance (and even more who are sufficiently appalled that they never showed up in the first place).

 

This is one of the problems of encouraging people who care to vote with their feet. After a while, you end up with an organization comprised only of the abusive and the apathetic, because all the people with real convictions are gone. And most of them leave without you even noticing.

 

It is the inevitable consequence of trying to manage the organization as “a big tent.” Having a “big tent” is just another way of saying “we uphold no standards.” An organization that refuses to uphold standards eventually is left with a membership of nothing but people who have no standards.

 

kat

Orange County, Calif.

:|

[Barbara McCrary]

Kat, a profound statement. I agree. I cannot understand why AERC is still involved with FEI and the abusive region of international riding.

 

Barbara

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[Joe Long]

I'm afraid it's  politics.  IMO the FEI has been a tail that wags the dog for a long time now.  The FEI riders and ride managers are a small minority in the AERC but they have a majority support on the Board.  The FEI association benefits the FEI riders and ride managers despite harming the AERC and the majority of its members, but I don't expect that association will change without a significant turnover on the Board.  Which is hard to get,  even more so if candidates for Director won't even make public their positions re the FEI.  Maybe this is one reason the Board will not allow members read-only access to their mailing list.

Does anyone still believe that the AERC can effect change in the FEI  "from the inside?"

Personally, since I'm a lifetime member, "voting with my feet" wouldn't be effective.  Heh, it would save AERC the cost of sending me Endurance News.

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
720-416-6577
jl...@chiprider.com

[Lynn White]

Ginger Bill made an excellent point:  Make every BOD candidate state their opinion on FEI co-sanctioning or trails preservation or horse welfare, whatever,  and their reasoning behind their opinion.  If we as members don't require some honesty in how these candidates will vote how can we hold them accountable in the way they write policy for AERC?  I read all the candidate statements and few have any passionate stance on issues.  Many just state they have so many miles or wins or experience in leadership.  I want to know what they think of issues and how they want to change them or if they think AERC is just fine as it is and want to work to keep it that way.  Some of these candidates write the most flowery schpeels that  tell me nothing.  I know being on the BOD is a hassle and it costs these people lots and time and money to serve.  I appreciate that.  But in the final analysis their job is to represent the AERC membership.

Off my soapbox

-Lynn

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[Barbara McCrary]

Lynn, this sounds like a good idea. I have not yet voted for West Region BOD candidates. We, as well as Joe Long, are lifetime members. I, along with Joe, was on the AERC BOD for 20 years. I suspect members got tired of seeing me as a candidate, time after time.

 

This issue with Region 7 – damaged and dying horses – is not the way we do things here. Apparently they don’t find horses anything but machines that can be cast off when they don’t operate anymore. Running these long distance rides for the sake of ego is disgusting. Seeing videos of horses with snapped legs is just appalling. I cannot believe that we are going to make any impression on their policies and traditions by example. If it were to happen, it would have done so by now. If I were on the BOD, I would vote against riding in that region, or having anything to do with them at all. And we – with our Swanton Pacific 100 mile ride – introduced international riding into the USA in 1986. It was fun then. It isn’t fun now. Competing with people who have no respect for their horses as living creatures, holds no pleasure, no glory – nothing.

 

I’m so upset about this issue, I’m going to quit now, and get back to cleaning house for Thanksgiving.

 

Barbara McCrary AERC# 2079

Retired ride manager:

Barley Patch 30

Castle Rock 50
Big Creek 70

Swanton Pacific 75 & 100

 

 

 

From: Lynn White [mailto:ldlw...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:38 AM
To: ridecamp
Subject: Re: [RC] When People Vote with Their Feet (was: Dead or Alive?)

 

Ginger Bill made an excellent point:  Make every BOD candidate state their opinion on FEI co-sanctioning or trails preservation or horse welfare, whatever,  and their reasoning behind their opinion.  If we as members don't require some honesty in how these candidates will vote how can we hold them accountable in the way they write policy for AERC?  I read all the candidate statements and few have any passionate stance on issues.  Many just state they have so many miles or wins or experience in leadership.  I want to know what they think of issues and how they want to change them or if they think AERC is just fine as it is and want to work to keep it that way.  Some of these candidates write the most flowery schpeels that  tell me nothing.  I know being on the BOD is a hassle and it costs these people lots and time and money to serve.  I appreciate that.  But in the final analysis their job is to represent the AERC membership.

 

Off my soapbox

 

-Lynn

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Joe Long <jl...@chiprider.com> wrote:

I'm afraid it's  politics.  IMO the FEI has been a tail that wags the dog for a long time now.  The FEI riders and ride managers are a small minority in the AERC but they have a majority support on the Board.  The FEI association benefits the FEI riders and ride managers despite harming the AERC and the majority of its members, but I don't expect that association will change without a significant turnover on the Board.  Which is hard to get,  even more so if candidates for Director won't even make public their positions re the FEI.  Maybe this is one reason the Board will not allow members read-only access to their mailing list.

 

Does anyone still believe that the AERC can effect change in the FEI  "from the inside?"

 

Personally, since I'm a lifetime member, "voting with my feet" wouldn't be effective.  Heh, it would save AERC the cost of sending me Endurance News.

 

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
720-416-6577
jl...@chiprider.com

 

 

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017, at 08:27 AM, Barbara McCrary wrote:

Kat, a profound statement. I agree. I cannot understand why AERC is still involved with FEI and the abusive region of international riding.

 

Barbara

 

 

 

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[k s swigart]

Barbara McCrary said:

 

> I cannot understand why AERC is still involved with FEI and

> the abusive region of international riding.

 

Probably for the same reason/s that many members are still involved with the AERC despite its involvement with FEI and the abusive region of international riding.

 

People who think the AERC should take a moral stand and dissociate itself from the FEI until it stops condoning the abusive practices of some of its participants should, themselves, take a moral stand individually and dissociate themselves from the AERC until it stops condoning the FEI’s acceptance of the abusive practices of some of its participants.

 

Those that don’t make this choice should at least understand the AERC’s choice not to dissociate itself from the FEI.

 

The FEI has let a minority of rich people in the middle east hijack its organization, even though the abomination of endurance racing in the middle east is not the only thing the FEI does. In fact, it is but a small part of it.

 

The AERC has let a minority of international riders hijack its organization, even though the abomination of endurance racing in the middle east is not the only thing the AERC does. In fact, it is but a small part of it.

 

Ignoring what despicable associates are doing and hoping it will just go away (or feigning indignation when you hear about it) is not unique to the FEI or the AERC. Nor is using “we want to effect change from within” as a lame excuse for continuing that association.

 

Taking a moral stand from outside a voluntary association is far more convincing and compelling than pretending to be trying to do it from within. Because anybody with two brain cells to rub together will recognize it as the pretense that it is.

 

The real position that both the FEI and the AERC have taken in this matter is “we’ll let you keep doing what you are doing just so long as you help us pay for what we want to do.”

 

The FEI is letting the middle east riders continue to kill horses at endurance races because it wants to keep the people doing it as members so it can keep collecting money from them.

 

The AERC is keeping its association with the FEI while the FEI is doing this because it wants to keep the people who ride FEI endurance as members so it can keep collecting money from them.

 

kat

Orange County, Calif.

:|

[Dawn Carrie]

<<The AERC is keeping its association with the FEI while the FEI is doing this because it wants to keep the people who ride FEI endurance as members so it can keep collecting money from them.​>>

Sad but true, Kat.

Dawn Carrie

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[Barbara McCrary]

I cannot disassociate myself from AERC because we are lifetime members. Have you a suggestion as to what I could do under these circumstances?

 

Barbara McCrary AERC# 2079

Retired ride manager:

Barley Patch 30

Castle Rock 50
Big Creek 70

Swanton Pacific 75 & 100

 

 

 

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[Barbara McCrary]

Do you REALLY feel that AERC is that greedy?? I find that hard to believe. Unless, perhaps, I misunderstood you…

 

Barbara McCrary AERC# 2079

Retired ride manager:

Barley Patch 30

Castle Rock 50
Big Creek 70

Swanton Pacific 75 & 100

 

 

 

From: Dawn Carrie [mailto:rdca...@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 9:33 AM
To: ridecamp

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[Dawn Carrie]

Barbara, I think they don't want to lose members, yes.  But I think it's more than that.  They don't want to rock the boat by upsetting the FEI/international members.  Right now, they see those people as being potentially the most vocal/hostile/active/whatever if they are crossed, so that is the group they choose to bend over to appease.  They see the general membership as the little people who grumble among ourselves, but never actually do anything (and sadly, that is what we have been), so they choose to ignore us in favor of ​appeasing the FEI people.  AERC has to choose which side to stand with.  Do they man up and do what is right, stand with horse welfare, ethical behavior, and basic morality, and distance themselves from FEI/international riding until the international side of endurance cleans itself up (or rather, until FEI grows a set and follows/enforces its own rules)?  This choice requires change, it requires strength, it requires fortitude, it requires action.  Or do they continue to pander to the FEI/international riders, remaining supportive of them, allowing them to remain members of AERC if they travel to "those" rides?  This choice requires...nothing.  Just continue on as is.  AERC has clearly made that choice.  AERC sides with FEI/international, and in doing so, tacitly condones what goes on in region 7, in spite of the flowery letters vehemently claiming otherwise.  As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

Dawn Carrie

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[Maryben Stover]

What exactly is the relationship between FEI and AERC.  As far as I remember, there really is not one.  We have AERC members that are also FEI members and choose to ride FEI rides, as well as AERC rides.  I don't remember there being any kind of "relationship" between the two.  But then I am old and forgetful. 

As far as there being FEI members on the board that is the fault of the membership.  I don't recall the numbers but I think that less than 50% of the members actually vote for the directors.  Since we just had an election, maybe we can get updated numbers.  

..........mb

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[Joe Long]

The office staff could verify this, but as I understand it,  AERC International (which is part of AERC) has a relationship with FEI via USEF.

The solution IMO is to separate AERC and AERC International, with AERC International becoming an independent organization without AERC in its name and no connection between them and AERC (or between AERC and USEF).  AERC International, under its new name and structure, could still provide its services to its members.

Rides could still be dual-sanctioned if we wanted to continue that, on a case-by-case basis (with Board review/approval of the application).  But the AERC would no longer have any ties to FEI.  Then we would not continue to be tainted by these bad practices.

I think Dawn hit the nail on the head, though.  It's too bad that the Board appeases the International riders at the expense of the membership and the organization.  They should grow some backbone.

As for the "greed," I find it hard to believe that there are more members doing FEI that would leave AERC than there are members leaving AERC due to the FEI scandals.

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
720-416-6577
jl...@chiprider.com

[Barbara McCrary]

You hit the nail squarely on the head, Joe. I couldn’t have come up with this solution, try as I might. It’s brilliant!

--

[Barbara White]

AERC very definitely has a relationship with FEI via USEF.  When members and board members asked for the official agreement to be produced several months back, nothing showed up. This was due to a situation in which USEF was pressuring AERC to collect its fines from some AERC-I members, and people started wondering what the two organizations obligations to each other are.  

It is my understanding that a new agreement is being worked on at present.  I have urged board members with whom I have a close relationship to ensure that AERC's interests are protected.  USEF's mission and AERC's mission are very different from each other, and I agree with Joe that it is not a good fit at this time.

Barbara

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[Dawn Carrie]

It is beyond time to sever that relationship.  As Joe suggested, let AERC international split off and form its own organization without AERC in its name.  Then, that organization can draft the agreement with USEF.  AERC would still need to decide how to handle those international members who continue to compete in those unethical rides in the UAE.  That is, are those riders truly complying with the AERC rules by doing so? I remember Kat posting a very compelling discussion of how they very well may not be.

Dawn

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[Diane Trefethen]

While what Kat and Dawn have said is valid, there are several “lame
excuses” that we ostensibly “good” members who want to “do what is right,
stand with horse welfare, ethical behavior, and basic morality” use as
well. Some of them have been posted in this thread.

The worst of these lame excuses is that the FEI supporters have
control of the BOD and there is nothing we can do about it. The truth is,
no one wants to get hated on and if anyone were to challenge BOD members
naming names and citing quotations, that whistleblower would receive a lot
of nasty emails and phone calls. Just look at how folks on Facebook
pussy-footed around calling out Darolyn Butler with Harvey approaching.
Finally someone posted her name and the dam broke. Or remember when a
respected member started pushing for Limited Distance horses/riders to get
the same awards as Endurance horses/riders. God help you if you pointed out
Limited Distance is useful but it is NOT as difficult as Endurance and thus
should not get the same level of recognition.

Ginger posted that she had contacted the candidates one election,
asked about FEI, and no one responded so s/he didn’t vote. In other words,
“there was nothing I could do so I gave up.” Better solution would have
been to publish the failure to communicate an answer on Ridecamp, AERC
Forum, and every other AERC-related group she knew of. If candidates won’t
take a position on issues, publicize that fact. Better yet, punish them.
Given that the power structure of the BOD is in favor of continued
involvement with FEI and the majority of the “little people” are not,
Ginger might also have posted to various groups that “the failure to
respond to the questions shows that the candidates favor supporting FEI
which is tantamount to favoring abusing and killing horses.” If nothing
else, the candidates would have had to either fail to respond to this
allegation, thus confirming it, respond with a mealy-mouthed set of excuses
for FEI, thus confirming it, or respond with a vehement denial and
condemnation of FEI, and probably Ginger too :). BTW, I’ve sent emails to
the current West candidates asking about co-sanctioning and suspension of
riders. We’ll see what comes of it.

We can demand that there be a summary of the discussions at BOD
meetings on aerc.org (or they can be recorded and stored on a website only
accessible to AERC members) so we can see who says what. If we have a
summary, it could be an official job, perhaps with the position even voted
on by the membership. A person required to “attend” all meetings and write
up a summary naming names and using direct quotes. IE, shine light on what
the people elected to represent us are actually doing.

We can demand that the BOD do away with unrecorded voice votes that
are NOT unanimous. We have a right to know who votes for what. The Chair
should follow every voice vote with “this vote is declared unanimous unless
there are any objections” at which point an objection must result in a
formal tally.

We can run for the BOD ourselves and in OUR statements, give our
position on important issues like this. And before you say, “Okay, Diane.
Where is YOUR name on the ballot?” contrary to what some have stated, it
DOES take money to participate in the semi-annual face to face meetings and
no I’m not going to spend what little I have for horse activities on flying
to Atlanta or Denver or where ever. Nor am I going to spend a couple of
thousand dollars for new computer equipment or more hundreds/month for an
expensive microwave connection so I can participate in “telephone” meetings.*

I have noticed that most candidate statements are full of what people
have done and damn little on what they plan to do. They also fail to
provide any email, phone or address which members might use to query
them.** This year’s candidates are a case in point. 3 people running, 2
statements over 1 full column long, and not one specific in the bunch.
Stuff about how they got into endurance, who their parents were, what their
jobs are, how they love horses, and generalities like, “we must support our
trails physically and financially” and “we must maintain a fair playing
field”. Gordie Cowan ALMOST made a declaration on FEI but not quite. “The
‘black eye’ has been… the USEF concerning FEI and UAE.” But then, sadly, “I
want to ensure the public knows the AERC does not condone practices
occurring elsewhere which reflect badly on endurance riding,” I mean
really. What AERC BOD candidate DOES “condone practices” which “reflect
badly on endurance”?

* Like many members, I am off the grid with no land lines.
** Most of this info is on aerc.org but takes some digging to unearth. They
have disabled the direct links to the Member Directory. That information is
now restricted to members only. So first you have to log on as a member.
Then you have to click Resources>Ride Managers>Member/Horse Lookup. Then
click in the burnt sienna box on Directories>Member Directory and enter the
Region and State parameters to which you want to limit your results.

[Dawn Carrie]

Diane, like Kat, has a habit of drilling down and hitting the nail on the head.  Well said, Diane.  All valid points.

Dawn​

[Lynn White]

Barbara, I know we can't change how horses are treated in Region 7 or anywhere else in the world for that matter.  As Americans we don't even do a very good job policing horse welfare here with respect to other sports.  The cat is finally out of the bag regarding soring of TW horses but people still practice it.  Rodeos are still abusing horses and stock,  they just hide it better.  But I digress.  From the stats and rules it appears that FEI Endurance is bought and paid for by Region 7.  I think what many AERC members find repugnant is that we are collectively condoning the behavior of Region 7  via the corruption of FEI.   As long as we stay connected via FEI co-sanctioning we support the abuse.  Many, many AERC members see it this way.   Either the BOD votes to support the will of the membership or the members vote in a new BOD that will.  Trouble is few members really know how candidates feel about FEI because it's the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about.

I think this is kind of sad for the FEI riders in other Regions who just want to represent their countries but have to compete on such a depraved playing field because they don't have a choice.  We at AERC do have a choice.  We have the privilege of riding and competing under the umbrella of an organization that puts horse welfare and safety first.  No, it's not perfect by any means, but it seems to work pretty well.    We are able to maintain that status because AERC is an amateur organization.  AERC members can make a living off endurance via goods and services, but they aren't going to be racing for $100K or a new pickup on an AERC venue.   I still don't know why the EU riders just don't get their act together and   form their own organization similar to AERC or  its Australian counterpart. Probably has to do with money or culture or a combination.  Imagine an FEI ride in France sponsored by some UAE Sheik where only Region 7 riders would show up.  That would be a huge statement.    And I'm not talking about the Bouthieb initiative rides.

When I first started doing endurance in the early 2000's I really enjoyed following FEI rides and the big international races.  Then it just got flat and fast and boring to follow; kind of like following the Tour de France.  Just a myriad of who cheats the best and who has the most money.  

Have a great Thanksgiving.  I'm driving to Santa Cruz for my uncle's Celebration of Life.  Should be a good trip and the weather looks like it will hold.

-Lynn

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[Ginger Bill]

I believe both Barbara and I, former ride managers, have seen the very best of endurance and we want it back. We are old so it's up to the rebels in our sport to make things happen again and we'll be supportive in every way possible. Ginger

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From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com <ridecampre...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dawn Carrie <rdca...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 1:04 PM

To: ridecamp
Subject: Re: [RC] When People Vote with Their Feet

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[Char Jewell]

Re: vetting BOD candidates.

I looked them up on the FEI website. If they were a current member, I didn’t vote for them.

Sent from Char's iPhone

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[k s swigart]

Barbara McCrary said:

 

> I cannot disassociate myself from AERC because we are

>  lifetime members. Have you a suggestion as to what

> I could do under these circumstances?

 

You can disassociate yourself from the AERC even if you are lifetime members. You can write a letter to the AERC and tell them you no longer want to be a member of the organization and to please take you off the membership list. And you can tell them why.

 

If, at some time in the future, the circumstances change such that you would be happy to support the organization with your membership, you can rejoin the organization then pay for it lending even more support.

 

Right now, the only support you are giving the AERC is lending your name to it. So that is the only thing you can take away.

 

Will the AERC care if it loses a lifetime member who is just costing it money even if the reason given is that the member considers the organization to be unethical? I doubt it.

 

> Do you REALLY feel that AERC is that greedy??

 

No, I don’t think the AERC is greedy. I think the AERC is delusional. The people making the decisions think they are doing the right thing. They think they are benefitting the organization and its membership by ‘keeping these people in the fold.’ And if all those pesky people with convictions leave the organization because of it, they can take membership surveys to discover that they ARE right, since all the members who are left get to tell them that they don’t care. It thinks that the benefits of its association with the horse abusers in the FEI through USEF as part of it organization outweigh the costs to the organization associated with doing so. And besides, the Board has been stacked with proponents of international riding.

 

I also think the FEI thinks it is doing the right thing by keeping the UAE horse abusers in the fold. After all, the horse abuse has been going on and has been known about for years, and the FEI has done well for itself by accepting the millions of dollars provided to them for holding its nose and turning the other way. It thinks that the benefits of keeping rich oil sheiks who also happen to be horse abusers as part of its organization outweigh the costs to the organization associated with doing so. And besides, the board has been stacked with proponents of rich oil sheiks.

 

Not all that much different from the Board of Directors of The Weinstien Company thinking that they were doing the right thing for that company by keeping as its chief executive somebody that it knew was a sexual predator. They thought the benefits to keeping an Oscar-winning director who happened to also be a sexual predator around outweighed the costs to the company associated with doing so. And besides, the board had been stacked with friends of Harvey Weinstien.

 

At least the FEI and TWC have the motivation of there being substantial benefits to the choice (i.e. millions of dollars). The AERC, on the other hand, is sacrificing its ethics for peanuts.

                                                                                                                                                                   

If the FEI were to ‘take a hard stand’ with respect to the horse abusers in the middle east, it could cost the organization millions. If the AERC were to do so, it would cost virtually nothing. Greedy people do not make such decisions for such paltry sums. So, no I don’t think the AERC is greedy; although, I do think it is doing it for the small amount of support provided by international riders. That it is so little money makes it pathetic.

 

kat

Orange County, Calif.

:|

[Carla Richardson]

Actually, Diane, the midyear meeting travel and hotel expenses are reimbursed. It's the convention expenses that are not reimbursed.

Carla Richardson 

[Karen]

Diane, This is not an argument for you to join the board, just techie FYI info.  I've worked from home since 1999. You don't need anything more than a cell phone to attend meetings and watch and even run presentations, using tools like Gotomeeting (billable to the host only, not attendees, and there are similar ones suitable for this size group that are totally free). Also works on any old laptop or PC, or whatever you use to do ridecamp. I'd be a little surprised if the board does not already use some such tool. I usually have meetings going on both my laptop and phone so I can wander upstairs  - or into town! - for a coffee and nobody is the wiser :)  For years all I had was an air card and even that worked though was a little laggy.

Sent from my iPad

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[Lynn White]

One could also put an entry to the AERC FB page and just say something like this:  "Dear AERC BOD candidates, in your candidate statement please describe your position on the following issues important to our sport..."    Then list what you think is important.

You are not making any statements that will get heated on the public FB forum.  You are just publically asking what their opinions are and to state them when running for the BOD. You are also NOT asking them to reply to your FB message.  All you are doing is asking them to answer what is important to you on their candidate statement.  Then check how many likes you get and get after anyone that gets snarky either way.  You are not trying to start a fight, but you are putting these candidates on notice what is important to YOU.  At the same time people are reading your post and thinking, "Yeah, I was worried about that too."  What is the worst thing that could happen?

A huge portion of AERC members are FB  AERC members and it doesn't cost anything to post on FB.

The FEI issue is important, but so are things like trail preservation, public land access, research, competition, rules, etc.  This way you might get some candidates thinking about how to serve the membership and not writing about their endurance history or how much they love horses, or the usual pabulum of why you should vote for them.

-Lynn

[Lisa Salas]

Diane, I asked for such transparency when AERC was forming the horse welfare committee. It appeared to me that AERC was fearful of reporting detailed deaths of horses or calling the rider/owner out and instead, just sent condolences. Granted, horses died from things that couldn't be prevented. Or did they? I don't know. What I do know is, when I complained very loudly and for quite some time about D.B. Dial racing a horse that had coliced days before and tested positive for drugs, I was told AERC could do nothing about that. So, there you have it. Nothing but excuses. If they can't do anything about such abusive behavior, like drugging a sick horse to race a championship ride on our home turf, what do you expect AERC to do about anything that happens elsewhere? I also quit my membership for a few years and then rejoined. I am now done for sure. No good reason for AERC to be involved with USEF if they can't break up with FEI. None.

I think a necropsy should be mandatory when a horse dies at a ride. Not to find fault or blame necessarily, but so that we can learn more about deaths at rides. However, if there is suspicion, then it will tell the truth. That is my opinion. And, by the way I got some ugly e-mails from the top tier of the board for raising hell about the Butler Dial debacle and I wasn't the one who drugged a sick horse just to race a championship. Whatever. 

Lisa Salas, the odd farm

[Diane Trefethen]

Thank you for the information, Carla. So AERC reimburses for travel and
hotel expenses for the midyear meeting but not for expenses associated with
the annual meeting held in conjunction with Convention, nor for any
computer, telephonic or Internet expenses incurred due to participating in
the roughly monthly meetings.

[Ginger Bill]

I don't remember. I said after talking to these people I did not vote for any of them. However, I never give up on anything. I really dislike it when a person assumes things that I should have said or done. Those were all someone else's opinion and not my way of going. Ginger

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From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com <ridecampre...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Carla Richardson <richards...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:02 AM
To: Ridecamp

Subject: Re: [RC] When People Vote with Their Feet

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[Diane Trefethen]

Hi Karen,

Thank you for your input.

There is a vast technological difference between using one’s computer for
contact with the outside world when you live in a place where you can
“wander upstairs - or into town!” and not have any problems with your
connection vs when you live in a place where the wind rustling through a
tree can cause a dropped call. I know this because I moved to my current
home in 2002 where there are no land lines and no electric grid and have
had both microwave transmission (great but now prohibitively expensive -
they aim their service at commercial, not residential users) and cellular
transmission connections. In addition to the problems associated with the
technology used by plain vanilla cell connections, there is Mother Nature
to contend with as well. Inversions, fog, rain, snow, even sunshine can
cause disruptions in service. As for using “whatever you use to do
ridecamp”, I do not “do” Ridecamp live. I “do” it via email. I’m pretty
sure I cannot use my “cell phone to attend meetings” by reading/sending
emails. You are probably correct about the host end but you are (were) less
informed about the user end. Only those whose Internet connection allows
them to “wander upstairs - or into town” can operate with just a cell
phone as you have suggested.

Again, I thank you for your input. I know you are trying to help. The
problem with your advice is that while it applies very well to people in
your position, it is not applicable to many who are not <kind>.

Regards,
Diane

[Diane Trefethen]

Hi Lynn,

Good suggestions. I would add the caveat that the AERC FB page has acquired
a very unpalatable reputation and that perhaps it needs an administrator
who is more inclined to cut off "snarky" behavior than is, apparently, the
case currently.

You are absolutely correct that FEI is not the only important issue. In
addition to the points you offered, there are some systemic problems that
have been ignored for decades, at first because they truly were not that
important, but more recently because (I assume) fixing them would be a
major headache and take considerably more courage than anyone currently on
the BOD can muster. Nevertheless, as Joe Long and Mike Maul proved, when
there is an issue that truly needs to be addressed (in their case the
computerization of AERC's interface with its membership), dedicated,
persistent, knowledgeable individuals can "Get 'er Done".

Again, good ideas on the candidate statements.

Regards,
Diane

[Carla Richardson]

No reimbursement for your time, no. There's the board email and a monthly conference call. If I'm not mistaken there's an 800 number you can call if you don't have unlimited long distance. The conference calls usually are about an hour long, sometimes are longer. The only expense that I had was attending the convention but I always went to the annual convention anyway. You do have to go earlier, of course, because the board meeting is Thursday evening and also stay later for the Sunday morning board meeting.

Carla Richardson 

[Diane Trefethen]

Dear Lisa,

Thank you for your passionate post. I have also suffered retributive
condemnation plus unfounded accusations when I’ve tried to “do the right
thing” per the AERC rules. So I know whereof you speak.

It is human nature to not rock the boat. 1) It is hard to summon up the
courage to call out what you perceive as unacceptable or unethical behavior
perpetrated by people with power because you know you’ll suffer criticism.
2) It is hard to accept that when you are called out, you should examine
the complaint(s) instead of blindly defending your actions and then take
appropriate action. 3) It is hard to publicly acknowledge that you were
mistaken.* We have been brainwashed into thinking that we must always be
“right”*. Ironically, no one thinks s/he is always in full possession of
ALL the facts, yet we abhor admitting it. 4) People would rather let things
slide than stir up a fuss, no matter how needed that fuss might be.

A necropsy is a very sound idea, paid for, of course, by AERC. And I am in
complete agreement that after the initial hoopla of patting ourselves on
the back for being so transparent and honest about horse fatalities, we
reverted back to what had been the standard mealy-mouthed treatment of said
fatalities. It is a gold standard that you cannot fix a problem if you fail
to acknowledge it. If your objective is to correct problems, condemnation
is useless, even counterproductive, but you do need sunlight, lots of it.

* Not wrong/right, rather mistaken/informed. Mistaken simply means your
thoughts were not fully informed. “Wrong” implies you knew you were
incorrect which in turn makes your position a lie, ie, immoral, while
“right” carries the connotation of being a good person. Being informed is
simply not a moral issue.

Regards,
Diane

[Diane Trefethen]

On 11/22/2017 11:39 AM, Ginger Bill wrote:
> I don't remember. I said after talking to these people I did not vote for
> any of them. However, I never give up on anything. I really dislike it when
> a person assumes things that I should have said or done. Those were all
> someone else's opinion and not my way of going. Ginger
>

Ginger - I apologize for misunderstanding you.
Diane

[Diane Trefethen]

Carla -
“Reimbursement for your time”? I didn’t suggest that.

As I said to Karen, not everyone has ACCESS to the services YOU have access
to. My Internet connection works for my current needs and my cell phone is
also adequate. However, to participate in those monthly conference calls
would require my making substantial upgrades to my Internet service as
there are no viable alternatives to my Verizon cellular phone connection.
When one is required to “pay to play”, that absolutely tends to restrict
players to only those who can pay.

Diane

[Carla Richardson]

Do you have limited minutes on your phone? I do believe there's a toll free number for conference calls if you do not have free long distance, but I thought all cell phones had free long distance now. So I guess I don't know why you would use the internet for the conference calls. But I might be misunderstanding your point. 

Carla Richardson 

[Carla Richardson]

You have access to email and a phone, that's all you need to be a director.

Carla Richardson 

[Karen]

Reimbursing for internet would not seem reasonable to me. Internet is typically something that runs year round not on a one-use basis. If internet is, say, $60/month I'm not sure how they'd figure out what to reimburse for a couple hours use. And for the most part people have it anyway. Or a cell phone that can be used for the same purposes. Even without a cell phone, if you have internet access, phone calls and online meetings are no additional cost. This is the beauty of today's technology. I've worked at home for 18 years for a company 1500 miles away, and have never missed a meeting for lack of being there.

If the board is not utilizing these tools, they should be.

Sent from my iPad

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[Er...@fleetfootfarm.com]

Depending on where you live, cell phone service is great, your home internet comes in on cable at blistering speed and Wi-Fi is available at almost every storefront. If you live in one of these areas, it is hard to understand that others are not as "lucky" as you. Where you live is your choice, you have to prioritize all your needs, and make your decisions based on those priorities. I too live in a semi-rural area, where cell phone coverage is iffy at best. As most of you know trying to communicate with someone, when one or both are at the ends of cell phone coverage, is extremely difficult and can be quite annoying. The same holds true of adequate internet service. Receiving eMAIL, takes a lot less "band-width / speed" than voice over IP and / or a conference meeting software like GoToMeeting. The upgrades needed to obtain the additional service level required are somewhat costly -especially for ten hours a year. I also do not believe that it is an expense that AERC should be required to pay -especially for ten hours a year.
What has been left out of this discussion is all of the phone calls, eMAIL and going to rides personal time that some (most?) of the Directors engage in. It is not an easy position.

Thanx Eric

Eric Rueter
Fleet Foot Farm
11045 Friendsville Road
Lenoir City, TN 37772

865.986.5966(H)
865.599.3594(C)

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen [mailto:enduranc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2017 10:04 AM
To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: Re: [RC] When People Vote with Their Feet

[Carla Richardson]

When I was on the board (for a little over a year) I was also traveling to and from rides. Several times I had to stop on the side of the road and be sure I had planned that stop at a place with cell coverage. I never missed a meeting.

If I lived somewhere with poor cell coverage, I'd drive the short distance usually necessary to get good cell service. It's only one day a month, less the month of the midyear meeting (August) and the month of the convention (March, usually). It's just part of being on the board, the minimum required. I never thought it was excessive.

As with most things in life, if it's something you believe is important, you will find a way.

Carla Richardson 

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[endurancehorsemt]

Oops for some reason didn't see all the emails and thought my first one didn't go through so I was a bit repetitive.

 Diane I live on a mountain in Montana 13 miles from town in a neighborood of mostly vacant 20 acre lots. I know well the struggle to get good Internet service. For a while I had to rent an office hourly in town for certain meetings or go to a coffee shop, or sit outside a coffee shop in my car, haha. Finally myself and some neighbors did enough begging and bargaining (ie help them promote their service) with a company to have them bring better internet, because we all work at home. But anyway, like Carla says, if someone really wants to be on the board they'll find a way. I have the way but I don't want to!

[endurancehorsemt]

... by the way, a cell phone booster is a worthwhile investment. Expensive at about $300 but without one I couldn't live here. You have to have SOME signal but it will turn a flaky 1 bar signal into solid 4 bars. No more hanging off the edge of the deck or sitting on the roof to use the phone :)

[endurancehorsemt]

Eric to your last point I 100% agree, to me the biggest sacrifices would be time, and angst! Bigger hurdles than getting a phone connection

On Nov 23, 2017 9:14 AM, "er...@fleetfootfarm.com" <Er...@fleetfootfarm.com> wrote:

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[cest.mo...@gmail.com]

If AERC and AERC INTERNATIONAL severed its ties would those riding in AERC International rides be counted in AERC ride miles? 

Sent from my LG V20, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

------ Original message------

From: Dawn Carrie

Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2017 11:19 AM

To: ridecamp;

Cc:

Subject:Re: [RC] Re: AERC/FEI

It is beyond time to sever that relationship.  As Joe suggested, let AERC international split off and form its own organization without AERC in its name.  Then, that organization can draft the agreement with USEF.  AERC would still need to decide how to handle those international members who continue to compete in those unethical rides in the UAE.  That is, are those riders truly complying with the AERC rules by doing so? I remember Kat posting a very compelling discussion of how they very well may not be.

Dawn

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Barbara White <barbs...@gmail.com> wrote:

AERC very definitely has a relationship with FEI via USEF.  When members and board members asked for the official agreement to be produced several months back, nothing showed up. This was due to a situation in which USEF was pressuring AERC to collect its fines from some AERC-I members, and people started wondering what the two organizations obligations to each other are.  

It is my understanding that a new agreement is being worked on at present.  I have urged board members with whom I have a close relationship to ensure that AERC's interests are protected.  USEF's mission and AERC's mission are very different from each other, and I agree with Joe that it is not a good fit at this time.

Barbara

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Barbara McCrary <bigcre...@wildblue.net> wrote:

You hit the nail squarely on the head, Joe. I couldn’t have come up with this solution, try as I might. It’s brilliant!

 

Barbara McCrary AERC# 2079

Retired ride manager:

Barley Patch 30

Castle Rock 50
Big Creek 70

Swanton Pacific 75 & 100

 

 

 

From: Joe Long [mailto:jl...@chiprider.com]

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 10:50 AM
To: ride...@endurance.net

Subject: Re: [RC] Re: AERC/FEI

 

The office staff could verify this, but as I understand it,  AERC International (which is part of AERC) has a relationship with FEI via USEF.

 

The solution IMO is to separate AERC and AERC International, with AERC International becoming an independent organization without AERC in its name and no connection between them and AERC (or between AERC and USEF).  AERC International, under its new name and structure, could still provide its services to its members.

 

Rides could still be dual-sanctioned if we wanted to continue that, on a case-by-case basis (with Board review/approval of the application).  But the AERC would no longer have any ties to FEI.  Then we would not continue to be tainted by these bad practices.

 

I think Dawn hit the nail on the head, though.  It's too bad that the Board appeases the International riders at the expense of the membership and the organization.  They should grow some backbone.

 

As for the "greed," I find it hard to believe that there are more members doing FEI that would leave AERC than there are members leaving AERC due to the FEI scandals.

 

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
720-416-6577
jl...@chiprider.com

 

 

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017, at 11:23 AM, Maryben Stover wrote:

What exactly is the relationship between FEI and AERC.  As far as I remember, there really is not one.  We have AERC members that are also FEI members and choose to ride FEI rides, as well as AERC rides.  I don't remember there being any kind of "relationship" between the two.  But then I am old and forgetful. 

 

As far as there being FEI members on the board that is the fault of the membership.  I don't recall the numbers but I think that less than 50% of the members actually vote for the directors.  Since we just had an election, maybe we can get updated numbers.  

 

 

..........mb

 

 

---

 

From: ridecampredistributed@googlegroups.com <ridecampredistributed@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dawn Carrie <rdca...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 10:11 AM
To: ridecamp
Subject: Re: [RC] When People Vote with Their Feet (was: Dead or Alive?)

 

Barbara, I think they don't want to lose members, yes.  But I think it's more than that.  They don't want to rock the boat by upsetting the FEI/international members.  Right now, they see those people as being potentially the most vocal/hostile/active/whatever if they are crossed, so that is the group they choose to bend over to appease.  They see the general membership as the little people who grumble among ourselves, but never actually do anything (and sadly, that is what we have been), so they choose to ignore us in favor of appeasing the FEI people.  AERC has to choose which side to stand with.  Do they man up and do what is right, stand with horse welfare, ethical behavior, and basic morality, and distance themselves from FEI/international riding until the international side of endurance cleans itself up (or rather, until FEI grows a set and follows/enforces its own rules)?  This choice requires change, it requires strength, it requires fortitude, it requires action.  Or do they continue to pander to the FEI/international riders, remaining supportive of them, allowing them to remain members of AERC if they travel to "those" rides?  This choice requires...nothing.  Just continue on as is.  AERC has clearly made that choice.  AERC sides with FEI/international, and in doing so, tacitly condones what goes on in region 7, in spite of the flowery letters vehemently claiming otherwise.  As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

 

Dawn Carrie

 

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Barbara McCrary <bigcre...@wildblue.net> wrote:

 

Do you REALLY feel that AERC is that greedy?? I find that hard to believe. Unless, perhaps, I misunderstood you…

 

 

Barbara McCrary AERC# 2079

Retired ride manager:

Barley Patch 30

Castle Rock 50
Big Creek 70

Swanton Pacific 75 & 100

 

 

 

 

From: Dawn Carrie [mailto:rdca...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 9:33 AM
To: ridecamp
Subject: Re: [RC] When People Vote with Their Feet (was: Dead or Alive?)

 

<<The AERC is keeping its association with the FEI while the FEI is doing this because it wants to keep the people who ride FEI endurance as members so it can keep collecting money from them.>>

 

Sad but true, Kat.

 

Dawn Carrie

 

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:29 AM, k s swigart <kat...@att.net> wrote:

Barbara McCrary said:

 

> I cannot understand why AERC is still involved with FEI and

> the abusive region of international riding.

 

Probably for the same reason/s that many members are still involved with the AERC despite its involvement with FEI and the abusive region of international riding.

 

People who think the AERC should take a moral stand and dissociate itself from the FEI until it stops condoning the abusive practices of some of its participants should, themselves, take a moral stand individually and dissociate themselves from the AERC until it stops condoning the FEI’s acceptance of the abusive practices of some of its participants.

 

Those that don’t make this choice should at least understand the AERC’s choice not to dissociate itself from the FEI.

 

The FEI has let a minority of rich people in the middle east hijack its organization, even though the abomination of endurance racing in the middle east is not the only thing the FEI does. In fact, it is but a small part of it.

 

The AERC has let a minority of international riders hijack its organization, even though the abomination of endurance racing in the middle east is not the only thing the AERC does. In fact, it is but a small part of it.

 

Ignoring what despicable associates are doing and hoping it will just go away (or feigning indignation when you hear about it) is not unique to the FEI or the AERC. Nor is using “we want to effect change from within” as a lame excuse for continuing that association.

 

Taking a moral stand from outside a voluntary association is far more convincing and compelling than pretending to be trying to do it from within. Because anybody with two brain cells to rub together will recognize it as the pretense that it is.

 

The real position that both the FEI and the AERC have taken in this matter is “we’ll let you keep doing what you are doing just so long as you help us pay for what we want to do.”

 

The FEI is letting the middle east riders continue to kill horses at endurance races because it wants to keep the people doing it as members so it can keep collecting money from them.

 

The AERC is keeping its association with the FEI while the FEI is doing this because it wants to keep the people who ride FEI endurance as members so it can keep collecting money from them.

 

kat

Orange County, Calif.

:|

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[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 11/25/2017 1:33 PM, cest.mo...@gmail.com wrote:

would those riding in AERC International rides be counted in AERC ride miles? 

As I understand it now for rides to count for AERC they are dual sanctioned rides and the rider enters both AERC and FEI rides that are being run over the same course at the same time.

--
Ed & Wendy Hauser
5729 175th Ave.
Becker, MN 55308

Ed: (406) 381-5527
Wendy: (406) 544-2926

[Diane Trefethen]

On Tuesday, 21-Nov-2017, I wrote a short email to the 3 people running for
the BOD in the West Region. This is what I wrote:

If elected to the AERC BOD, do you plan to do either of the following?
1) Offer/support and vote for a motion that AERC disassociate with FEI by
refusing to co-sponsor FEI rides until FEI resolves, NOT JUST ADDRESSES,
the situation in Group VII.
2) Impose a 6 month suspension on any AERC member or horse who participates
in a Group VII ride with the exception of rides employing the Bouthieb
Initiative.

As of noon, Saturday, November 25, 2017, none of them had responded.

I realize that Thursday was Thanksgiving and I am sure none of the
candidates want to address AERC issues over a nice family holiday but the
deadline is the 30th so maybe they should be more willing to answer questions?

Diane Trefethen
AERC #2691

[stephanie teeter]

Re credit for FEI rides - riders that do non-AERC rides can ask to have the miles that they rode added to their lifetime mileage. This doesn’t count for awards/miles/points during the ride season. 

FEI rides and other recognized organization rides (e.g. Australia, Canada) may count. They don’t have to be dual-sanctioned for lifetime miles, but they do for current year awards miles/points.

Steph

[Brooke Schick]

Just curious folks - How many AERC-I members are participating in the Group 7 rides?  Are we talking 2, 10?

[Joe Long]

I don't see as much of a problem with co-sanctioning an FEI ride being
held in the U.S., as there is with AERC International and our
association with FEI via AERC International and USEF. The AERC
co-sanctions rides with many organizations . I believe that allowing
co-sanction with U.S. FEI rides on a case-by-case basis would be a
reasonable compromise on this issue, as long as AERC International is no
longer a part of AERC and that the AERC has no ties to FEI through it or
USEF.

BTW, as I understand it, the only non-sanctioned rides that can be added
for lifetime mileage are FEI rides. Another practice that should be
addressed given the problems in FEI ... do we really want those miles in
our records? At least disallow Group 7 rides!!!!!

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
720-416-6577
jl...@chiprider.com

A++ G+ PKR+ PEG+ B++ M+

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 11/25/2017 7:23 PM, stephanie teeter wrote:

Re credit for FEI rides - riders that do non-AERC rides can ask to have the miles that they rode added

OOPS!  I knew that, I was just thinking about year end points. 

Ed