drugs or no drugs....

[Cynthia Ross]

LOL. That's ok Diane, I wasn't trying to make the argument of whether we should or shouldn't allow pergolide. I get the drug free line of thought. I don't consider pergolide performance enhancing but that just goes back to what anyone considers performance enhancing. The pergolide only makes my horses body function normally so she can continue to do what she always did. She can't do it better. (using the genetic capability theory) and the exercise is actually good for the condition that she has. But if you want to use the simple definition of does it enhance her performance right NOW in her current condition? Well yes, because she needs the pergolide to get her body functioning normally so in the simplistic view, yes, she needs drugs to compete. 

My personal feeling is we need to go with all - some drugs allowed on the genetic capability theory, meaning those drugs that protect our horses without giving them the ability to perform above what they are naturally genetically capable of. Or nothing - no drugs at all. 

Diane Trefethen <tr...@wakerobinranch.com>: Oct 15 10:50AM -0700 

On 10/15/2014 6:36 AM, Cynthia Ross wrote:
> /Kat said:/
> /Pergolide is a drug used solely for the purpose of marginally managing (there
> is no treatment) Cushing's disease...
 
Kat was being conservative using "marginally." Your comments show clearly how 
big a performance enhancement pergolide really provides. Thank you for arguing 
our case.

Cindy Ross, 

www.inspiredbyluke.com

https://www.facebook.com/inspiredbyluke

Custom Made Horse Hair Jewelry

louielbm.blogspot.com

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 10/15/2014 3:40 PM, Cynthia Ross wrote:

f. Or nothing - no drugs at all. 

This gets to the heart of my arguments.  It is much easier and intellectually honest to draw a line in the sand and say "no drugs" than to argue forever as a little bit of this and then a little of that is added to the "allowed drugs" list.

Reminds me of the old joke of the fellow who goes up to a girl in a bar and asks if she knows how much money $ 10 million is.  After talking to her for a half hour, she finally admits that she would go to bed with him for $10 million.  His next question is "Will you go to bed with me for $10?".  Her reply is "What kind of woman do you think I am?"  He, "We already decided that, now we're just negotiating the price." 

The AERC is fast going towards allowing as many drugs as any horse group in the world.  Makes me very sad.

Ed

--
Ed & Wendy Hauser
5729 175th Ave.
Becker, MN 55308

Ed: (406) 381-5527
Wendy: (406) 544-2926

[Truman Prevatt]

On Oct 15, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Ed & Wendy Hauser <ra...@sisuwest.us> wrote:

On 10/15/2014 3:40 PM, Cynthia Ross wrote:

f. Or nothing - no drugs at all. 

This gets to the heart of my arguments.  It is much easier and intellectually honest to draw a line in the sand and say "no drugs" than to argue forever as a little bit of this and then a little of that is added to the "allowed drugs" list.

Reminds me of the old joke of the fellow who goes up to a girl in a bar and asks if she knows how much money $ 10 million is.  After talking to her for a half hour, she finally admits that she would go to bed with him for $10 million.  His next question is "Will you go to bed with me for $10?".  Her reply is "What kind of woman do you think I am?"  He, "We already decided that, now we're just negotiating the price."  

The AERC is fast going towards allowing as many drugs as any horse group in the world. 

Bingo!

Makes me very sad.

Ed

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5729 175th Ave.
Becker, MN 55308

Ed: (406) 381-5527
Wendy: (406) 544-2926

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[k s swigart]

Ed said:

> The AERC is fast going towards allowing as many drugs

> as any horse group in the world. 

Personally, I wouldn't describe adding three drugs in 15 or so years as "fast."

Although "towards" IS the direction that it is going.  Especially since some other horse groups are going in the opposite direction.

But it is an indication that the AERC, in its desperation to increase participation, is willing to allow the drugging of horses that otherwise it considers to be physically unable to participate in its events.

The AERC has abandoned the philosophy that horses that need drugs to stay healthy need to stay home.

How much faster the AERC continues towards allowing as many drugs as any horse group in the world probably depends upon how much more desperate it gets for participants.

kat

Orange County, Calif.

:|

 

[Bruce Weary]

Kat--

 You are an intelligent woman and often have valuable things to say. But I have to say you have a habit, and it is a popular habit these days, to take an observation--in this case the recent allowance of a preventive dose of Omeprazole while in competition--wrap it up in your own personal conclusions of how you think that decision was made--in this case you are presuming monumentally incorrectly that the Vet Committee made this recommendation to elicit more entries--and then hand back the entire package to those decision makers as if to show how faulty their reasoning was, and that you've seen right through it. This decision was made to protect those horses already in competition, not as a sales gimmick. Our Vet Committee is far, far brighter than that.  In the future, please try to delineate what you know to be true from those conclusions you make personally with no support to back them up.   Thank you.   Bruce Weary

--

[Carla Richardson]

The AERC Veterinary Committee has been reviewing and discussing the pros and cons of allowing omeprazole use for years.  Years.  I believe that in reviewing the scientific evidence that is available, they concluded that it would be beneficial to allow the low dose use. 

Carla Richardson

[Diane Trefethen]

On 10/17/2014 7:29 AM, Bruce Weary wrote:
> In the future, please try to delineate what you know to be true from
> those conclusions you make personally with no support to back them up.

When one discusses human nature, it is usually difficult to cite sufficiently
persuasive facts to support one’s opinions since there are so many variables
that go into human behavior. Nevertheless, we all have “gut feelings” about
certain issues, feelings that we believe are valid, even though we cannot prove
them.

The idea that granting a seemingly minor concession to someone will pave the way
to granting greater and clearly undesirable demands has been around for
millennia. Can Kat or I prove it is true? Particularly with respect to the
“allowance of a preventive dose of Omeprazole while in competition?” No, of
course not. Nevertheless, we have with us
1) The camel’s nose
2) The slippery slope
3) Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile
4) Get a foot in the door
5) The domino effect
These are all phrases that suggest one should use caution when giving in to a
“minor” request.

It is worth noting that further proof of the truth of this facet of human nature
is in our own drug rules. Though I’m not sure of the order of “minor
concessions,” we have
1) Regumate to relieve the stresses of estrus on those poor mares who cannot
perform up to their natural abilities while in heat,
2) Peroglide to allow horses with Cushings disease to race 25, 50 or 100 miles
because exercise is good for horses with Cushings,
3) Chondroitins and hyaluronates for horses whose joints are so shot they suffer
too much pain to run without them,
4) Probiotics which are microorganisms that can be beneficial to one’s health
and occur naturally in some foods. However, given that some horse supplements
contain as much 300 times as many CFUs as yogurt, it’s pretty safe to say that
probiotic supplements for horses would have been disallowed in 2005 when our
drug rule read, “AERC prohibits from competition equines who contain evidence of
the administration of abnormal substances or of normal substances in abnormal
amounts (exogenously administered compounds even if normally found endogenously).”

Now some vocal and apparently persuasive individuals who have horses which have
or might develop ulcers because the stress of endurance is too much for them
want to allow “therapeutic” doses of Omeprazole. Thus we are staring directly
into the situation that all the above phrases portend. Give a little and you
open the flood gates. Those who think only horses who are healthy enough to do
endurance on their own merits without the assistance of a pharmaceutical are
losing the battle. It is only a matter of a few years before we allow bute in
levels too low to mask other drugs (like USEF does) because it is after all an
anti-inflammatory and will allow horses with swellings and pain to run. Then,
when we adopt USEF’s “GR411 Conditions For Therapeutic Administrations of
Forbidden Substances” which allows the administration of any prohibited
substance as long as “all of the following requirements have been met,” we can
completely do away with limiting the amount of bute you can feed your endurance
equine.

I detest what I consider the selfish attitude that if an equine hurts, it is
“kind" to eliminate its pain so the owner can ride it in endurance and to hell
with the fact that there is some underlying cause that is not being addressed.
In my opinion, “kind” would be not to subject the equine to endurance unless the
underlying condition were cured.

[Kathy Mayeda]

The problem with this argument is that Pergoglide, omeprazole and Regumate can be considered cures for the respective conditions.

Frankly, I'm not a 100% on either side of the argument.  I agree the drug policy mission statement needs to be addressed because allowing these substances seems to be in opposition.

K.

[Diane Trefethen]

On 10/17/2014 11:34 AM, Kathy Mayeda wrote:
> The problem with this argument is that Pergoglide, omeprazole and Regumate can
> be considered cures for the respective conditions.

Hi Kathy,

Thank you for pointing this out.

Unless I am misinformed, those substances treat symptoms and/or temporarily
ameliorate the underlying conditions. If this is accurate, then those who say
these medications cure those conditions are not using “cure” in the same way I
meant in my post. I used “cured” to mean “eliminated with sufficient permanency
that neither a re-occurrence of the condition nor an occurrence of a similar
condition would be considered a continuation of the original process but an
entirely new pathology.” That seems a bit wordy but if it clarifies my point,
then I apologize for using just “cured.”

Diane Trefethen

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 10/17/2014 12:52 PM, Diane Trefethen wrote:

allow bute in levels too low to mask other drugs (like USEF does) because it is after all an anti-inflammatory and will allow horses with swellings and pain to run.

NSAIDs also prevent inflammation therefore, by the current logic they should be allowed and perhaps required.

[Bruce Weary]

Hi Ed--

 Though your logic is sound, NSAIDS don't work in the way you describe. The body has its own "chemistry set" of anti-inflammatory substances and chemical pathways that begin, drive, and eventually attenuate the inflammatory process. The marketing title "anti-inflammatory drug" is only partly true. NSAIDS and other anti-inflammtories are substances not found in the body that attempt to chemically and artificially disrupt certain and different steps in the inflammatory cascade. In that sense they are really masking drugs that buy the body some time to eventually overcome and resolve the complex inflammation process and eventually produce healing. But, it comes at a cost, and this is a well known fact that is easily Googled: NSAIDS and other anti-inflammatory meds actually and dramatically INHIBIT healing of tissue. Some will even cause tissue breakdown, cases in point GI bleeding and tissue degradation from NSAIDS and corticosteroids, respectively. So, to use NSAIDS in a competing horse with active inflammation would often times end up masking symptoms, possibly while allowing pathology to continue, for example riding a horse with a strained tendon on bute. The med may mitigate the symptoms, and the tendon can weaken further with the concussive effects of endurance riding. As Yoda would say, "Sticky wicket, it is."   :)   Bruce Weary

--

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 10/20/2014 9:40 AM, Bruce Weary wrote:

, NSAIDS don't work in the way you describe. T

Of course NSAIDs shouldn't be used by competition horses for the very reasons you describe, but I have it on good authority (the Orthopedic Surgeon who helps me deal with arthritis issues) that they interruption of the inflammation cascade does prevent both pain and further damage. 

I will further state, with no fear of contradiction,  that each and every drug that has ever been invented, has effects and side effects.  Some side effects are known, some are not.  The result is that it is a very good bet that between the known and unknown effects and side effects there are some that are undesired.  This is one reason I am opposed to allowing horses to compete under the influence of drugs.   

[Truman Prevatt]

Olin Balch and I put together an article which appeared in EN a few years back and was reviewed in Equus.  The research for this article was done in 2009 and 2010.  During this process all available literature was surveyed.  I had the help of a good friend who is was a full professor of pharmacology at the time and now dean of a medical school.  There were some of studies in humans that pointed to the potential side effect of bone density loss leading to fractures of the long term use of PPI's including Omeprazole.  

However, there at the time was no FDA warning of such a side effect.  A lot of the studies where at specific target populations, e.g., older people including post menopausal women who have a issue with bone density loss.  Since that time, however, the evidence has been building over the side effect of blocking calcium absorption leading to weakening of bones that the FDA is requiring such a warning on the PPI used to treat acid and acid reflux.  Here is the warning for Prilosec (Omeprazole).  http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/UCM322359.pdf

The important thing is the bone fracture warning is recent to the list of side effects which means the FDA has sufficient evidence to indicate it is a problem.  

Clearly we are just finding out the long term impacts on Omeprazole in humans.  While there are cross species issues and there haven't been sufficient studies in horses to determine limiting calcium absorption which can lead to the body drawing calcium from the bones for normal function which over time could cause potential weakening in the bones - the fact of the the FDA adding this as a warning for PPI drugs in humans should give us pause when the question of legalizing the use of Omeprazole in the AERC.  Again I would like to see the science that was used to justify this.  Where is the indication that it is necessary for one small set of events when in fact those events have a lower pull rate than any other in the AERC.  Where is the conclusive science that would allow a rule which could put our horses in a potential position of long term risk?

Truman

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[Carla Richardson]

I think there has been extensive use in TB race horses, for many years, and I remember reading there had been no increase in fracture rate. 

I've said this previously when Truman brought up the human studies, that comparison of elderly human populations to horses is not going to give you a good analysis.

I know Susan Garlinghouse, DVM will have a good analysis, I would like to hear from others but I am hoping there will be a good update in an upcoming Endurance News.

Carla Richardson

[Truman Prevatt]

TB race horses tend to have short careers.  Most don't run past 3 years old.  At that point you lose track of them.   Most of these types of side effects won't necessarly show up in clinical studies used to get FDA approval.  They show up in large population studies after the drug has been in use in a large population. That is when such effects have resulting in side effects showing up in the larger population as a whole.  It is not uncommon that the FDA remove drugs from the market if side effects are significant, drugs will in fact be withdrawn from the market.  An example was the with drawl of the COX-2 inhibitor Rofecoxib. 

While it is true, that the Hinkle and Sauerwein in 2002 concluded that in the population addressed by them, that there was insufficient evidence to conclude that Omeprazole affects bone density.  However, they are Army doctors and their study was to address the issue for a population of interest to the US Army which is a very small segment of the population as a whole. Clearly the recent change on the part of the FDA to require a warning on PPI's can cause decrease in bone density raise the risk for fracture should be a wake up call. 

The second issue not necessarily in race horses is Ca++ is an important electrolyte.  Calcium is critical for muscle functioning, nerve signaling (after all it is called an electrolyte for a reason - reason it's ability to carry a electrical current) and normal heart functioning.  Any drug that can interfere with the absorption of calcium from the food (which is a know side effect of Omeprazol) does not even seem to be a good idea for an even where electrolytic imbalance is one of the most common metabolic risk.  Cramping and thumps are common metabolic issues that can arise by an imbalance of calcium. 

I did an extensive analysis on the pull rates from all endurance rides from 1996 through 2006.  At that time Pioneer rides had 1/2 the pulls as did either LD or single day 50's.  Of those pulls, in Pioneer had a smaller portion that were caused by metabolic cases compared to lameness than did either LD or single day 50's.  So at least for that 11 year period - there is no indication of an issue in Pioneer rides.  It fact metabolic issues were much more likely to be the cause of non-completion by a significant amount in one day 100 mile events than any other even offered by the AERC.  

This on large study which covered over 200,000 starts did not indicate a problem with Pioneer.  So again where are the indications within our data that there is a significant issue in metabolic issues in Pioneer events vs. other events since this was the rational used to justify a rule change to allow this particular drug. 

Truman

--

"Horsehair is inextricably woven into the fabric of the American heritage.", Rick Potts, Chief of Conservation and Outdoor Recreation, National Park Service

[Kathy Mayeda]

Wow Truman, we're agreeing on something!  Your stats prove out my gut feeling and experience with Pioneer rides.                         

K.

[Carla Richardson]

Well at this point in the discussion, I think I have to point out something.

Looking at Truman's record, he has never completed any pioneer rides, and Kathy Mayeda completed one 4 day pioneer at Death Valley in 2002.  Both have come out strongly with their opinions, which is fine, but what is it based on?  Experience?  I don't think so.

I do not usually bring up ride records, but I will say that I've completed over 25 multi-day rides on my horse, the same horse.  He's been hauled tens of thousands of miles to get to those rides.  I know it is hard on him to haul all day long.  If omeprazole can help him, I'm for it.  I've talked to a lot of veterinarians and read many articles written by veterinarians and riders in endurance.  

My horse is in his 7th year of competition and has almost 11, 000 miles.  I want to help him and I'm listening to our veterinarians and other high mileage and multi-day riders with actual experience, not people who no doubt mean well, but I think are relying on just their "feelings" on a subject with which they have little to no real experience.

Carla Richardson

[Kathy Mayeda]

Okay Carla, that's a great record.  And a record I believe you had earned WITHOUT omeprazole?  And how many other Pioneer riders have completed WITHOUT omeprazole?  I'm just a little wierded out that the drug decision would be made when there is really no evidence that Pioneer rides cause an increased amount of EGUS, when the stats would indicate otherwise.

So, you've talked to a lot of veterinarians and high mileage riders.  Okay, that's great, but that's not really any more conclusive.  So have I when I was competing.  So pray tell, what are they saying about the use of omeprazole now?  You didn't say in your post.

The advice that I got from some fairly big name riders was to take my horse to a multi-day ride for him to learn to eat and drink.  Just the fact that he was eating and drinking better at the end would be helpful for preventing EGUS.  I'm really not sure that administering a drug that messes with the normal digestive functions is a good thing in the long run.

K.

[Truman Prevatt]

Carla - what I have done or not done or what Kathy has done or not done is absolutely and totally irrelevant.  Bottom line there is no evidence in the ride results - at least the over 200,000 records I looked at from 1996 through 2006 that there were any difference in pulls in Pioneer and every other format.  In fact the rides during that period the Pioneer pull rate was less than every other format.  Now what is the problem.  In reality it is also irrelevant what someone says or doesn't say.  What does the numbers say.  There are plenty of extremely robust statistical test to test for higher risk of metabolic pulls in one format vs. another.  I expect if run you would find that Pioneer has a lower metabolic pull rate.  

In that rate there is absolutely no justification for allowing a drug based on Pioneer metabolic issues. 

Truman 

--
"Only one thing is certain--that is, nothing is certain. If this statement is true, it is also false."  - Ancient Paradox

[Carla Richardson]

I would like to hear from the chair of the Veterinary Committee.

Carla Richardson

[Lynn White]

Statistics are a funny thing, especially when they omit important variables.  None of AERC's stats include the miles or hours the horse spent in a trailer getting to and from a ride. The rides themselves don't include variables like heat, humidity, or terrain.  All we see are the miles, times, and pulls.    To me, trailering is a stressful endeavor for horses.   There are numerous articles in just about every equine periodical concerning the stress of travel and how to mitigate this stress. 

 

I'll state this one more time from my personal experience: 1).  Injury to the digestive tract of ANY animal is cumulative if the damage is not allowed to heal.  So for example,  I can accumulate damage to my guts  over a period of several years and not show symptoms until the damage is so bad the pain comes from something else becasue there are no nerves on the inside of the system.    2.)  Healing of the digestive tract takes a long time because one just can't stop eating.  I know humans are not horses, but guts are a funny thing. 

There is not enough research to indicate the duration and extent a horse can undergo before damage is done to the digestive tract, or how long a horse has to rest to repair such damage.   So it seems to me a good approach would be to allow a preventative measure and couple this with research.  At the cost of most of these meds, I'm sure most riders would be happy to not have to buy any more of it than they need. 

-Lynn

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 10/20/2014 5:41 PM, Carla Richardson wrote:

at I've completed over 25 multi-day rides on my horse, the same horse

Looking at this from another standpoint, how do you know that your successful multiday horse would be helped by Omeprazole enough to risk possible harm from an unknown (or partly known) side effect of Omeprazole?  Even though 21st century Americans would like to think that there is a pill to cure every problem, it just ain't so.

Truman's argument was not based upon his experience.  It was based on much more persuasive (at least to a scientist) evidence, the statistical analysis of over 200,000 starts in AERC events.

Ed

p. s. I applaud your abilities to ride many days in a row and manage your horse during these events.  My body has never been able to take that, even with the help of NSAIDs.

[Susan E. Garlinghouse, DVM]

This will have to be posted in several parts, as I'm still on my way home from DC, but in general, I've agreed with Lynn White's comments.

Ed, I know you come from an engineering background, and thus tend to see things in the black-and-white that is more usual in the physical sciences.  As such, I appreciate your definitions of drugs vs nutrients, but in reality, their definitions have many more shades of gray.

You commented that a nutrient is required for life, which is true, and that a drug is not.  Let's take for example, B vitamins.  Without sufficient B vitamins, certain diseases develop, which can be potentially life-threatening (beri-beri and pellagra are two of them, both scourges of POWs during numerous wars).  At sufficient levels in the diet, B vitamins just contribute to good health but don't do much else.  At higher levels of supplementation, they result in some mild calming effects, which could be defined as a pharmacological effect as would a drug.  Also at higher levels, they mask the administration of other prohibited performance-enhancing drugs, and also provide some pretty marked diuretic properties.  As such, there's some pretty fuzzy areas in where B vitamins stop being a nutrient and start being a drug, wouldn't you say?

Let's take another example of a substance/drug that may or may not be strictly required for life as a nutrient is, but it sure does help the average horse, and that's ivermectin.  Although used as a drug that kills parasites, ivermectin is, chemically speaking, an antibiotic.  As such, antibiotics should be categorically on the list of prohibited substances.  Other than relieving a horse from a parasite load, anybody here think that ivermectin is performance-enhancing?  Or by controlling and preventing a predictable disease state, at which traveling endurance horses are at higher risk simply by attending and participating, are we simply carrying out good preventative care of the horse?

Is there anyone here that feels, because some horses do indeed seem to be more susceptible to parasite infection/infestation than others, that those horses "prone" to picking up parasites should stay at home and not go to rides if they cannot do so without the benefit of ivermectin from time to time?  And no, I'm not saying that ivermectin needs or should be given at a ride---but I might if I thought my horse had been grazing on grass likely to be carrying high strongyles egg loads and wanted to nip that problem in the bud.  More so if I were competing in a very long multiday like the XP11 that went on for eight weeks and crossed some of the most heavily infested pastures on earth.

Thirdly, the phrase "drug-free" sport is obsolete and unrealistic.  I'm not referring to relaxed standards, but rather to the increased ability of analytical chemistry to detect insanely minuscule parts-per-buhzillion of the remnants of drugs given weeks or even months earlier.  If your horse has gotten a few tabs of SMZs in the past six months, or so much as a gram of bute, they can probably find a random wandering molecule of metabolite.  Does that mean that your horse is competing under the influence of those drugs?  Of course not, but let's keep in mind that these days, there really isn't anything that is truly "drug-free", unless your horse has never been administered any drug, EVER.  The difference is where do we want to put the line in the sand of providing a performance enhancing benefit, and where it has not?  That's the whole principle behind the "acceptable threshold" being placed on numerous drugs, rather than the unrealistic requirement of "drug-free".  It's all in where you want to place your decimal point.

More in a bit.  Must start migrating towards the airport. :-)

Susan Garlinghouse, DVM

Sent from my iPad

--

[Truman Prevatt]

In much of science you often do get direct observation to the underlying phenomenon.  You only get statistical observations on the results of the phenomenon.  For example, the entire theory of the standard model of particle physics 

is based of observations of the underlying phenomenon since we can't directly observe the subatomic particles.  In fact quantum mechanics is a statistical theory - the underlying physics cannot be directly observed only the interactions in experiments. Much of biological sciences are the same.  Unless we keep stuffing a scope down a horse which has its own downside - then we don't get direct observations.  However, the ability of the a horse to finish a stressful test like an endurance ride does give an indirect observation of the horse's condition. When you have a data based of over a quarter a million starts, there are gold nuggets hiding in "them thar records."

There are have been plenty of statistical methods developed to deal with missing variables - analysis of variance based on Latin Squares comes to mind and has been around since Fisher in the early 1900's.  The one thing to keep in mind is traveling long distances to endurance rides is as old as endurance riding.  Back in the 80's and early 90's (long before Omeprazole) the AERC national champion was crowned on what was called the "great trailer race."  It was quite common for people to travel multiple days half way across the country to do the Outlaw Trail or do the Race of Champions.  My self I traveled to Idaho - did a ride in Montana on the way out, a ride in Montana a couple days of a three day ride in WY on the way back.  This is with two different horses.  We routinely traveled over 10 hours to most rides since it was 6 hours to even get out of Florida and in the early days there were not many rides in Florida.  My horses would consume hay the entire trip, eat their concentrates and drink water the entire way.  Most people I knew riding at the time had the same experience with their horses.  I guess if my horses would not eat while traveling I would not have traveled long distances until they learned to do so or would not have considered the horse a good candidate for endurance and not put (her then him) through the elevated stresses of endurance riding because it would have been clear that genetically or training wises they were not ready for such stresses. 

BTW Carla, I have plenty of stuff I helped design flying in space although I have never flown in space myself.  

Truman

--

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friedrich Nietzsche, The Dawn

[Bruce Weary]

Actually, Ed, much the opposite is true of NSAIDS. They do block some of the early inflammatory response in joints, and thereby provide a temporary pain relief. However, they can generally contribute to joint degeneration by blocking the regenerative process if used too much. I'm sure your surgeon is a good one, but if he is recommending long term use of NSAIDS to prevent joint damage, you may want to go shopping. Of course, the GI, liver and kidney complications also contribute to the cautionary instructions in the use of NSAIDS. You can't keep your joints healthy by using NSAIDS, though I think the marketing people would like you to believe that.

--

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 10/21/2014 9:39 AM, Bruce Weary wrote:

I'm sure your surgeon is a good one, but if he is recommending long term use of NSAIDS to prevent joint damage, you may want to go shopping. Of course, the

There are two important differences here:

1. Personal decisions by an adult human being of normal intelligence to expose himself to possible side effects of drugs is completely different than exposing a horse to the same risk. 
   
2. As suggested by my MD, the use of NSAID before competition allows me to compete pain free with a much smaller total dose than waiting until after the ride and treating the pain.  This is the effect that I am addressing.

If it were my horse who had similar arthritic conditions to mine, he would have been retired many years ago.  Like many people I am not content to spend the rest of my life sitting in a rocking chair, waiting for the end to come.  On top of this, I suspect that if I did do that, as predicted by my cardiologist, I would die many years sooner than if I take certain risks and keep on keeping on.

Ed

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 10/21/2014 9:28 AM, Susan E. Garlinghouse, DVM wrote:

As such, there's some pretty fuzzy areas in where B vitamins stop being a nutrient and start being a drug, wouldn't you say?

All of which just says that let's have two rules.  One about drugs, the other about the abuse of nutrients by administering them in abnormal amounts.  If I remember the original AERC rules correctly, this was covered.

As far as wormers, sure we need to use them.  I would support the AERC having a rule that they should not be used within a certain number of days of a competition. Personally, I do not worm my horses during or right before competition just because the wormer might not improve their ability to compete.  

As far as complaining that the small detectable amounts of a drug after 5 half lives makes "drug-free" obsolete.  As a scientest I am fully aware that modern chemistry can detect things like this.  I'm sure that every animal in N America has detectable amounts of drugs, poisons, and radio active residues from atomic energy.  It is neither difficult, or bad logic to define, for the purposes of AERC competition, an extremely low and reasonable limit to residues of drugs.  If a Phillidephia lawyer wants to claim that this is bad use of the English language, I would point him to the fine print where I define "drug-free" to be these extremely low levels. 

Ed

[Carla Richardson]

Ed, I'm with you there 100%.  I had to retire a lovely, brave, beautiful and always willing horse at 19 years young because of an arthritic hock.  If I had injected his hocks he may have been able to keep going, but I just couldn't do it.  I'm not against hock injection (Legend) but he I think had an old injury compounding the problem (he had been raced).  MT Top Gun, who lived for many more years happily being a pasture ornament, until finally I had to let him go. 

Carla Richardson

--

[Truman Prevatt]

On Oct 21, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Ed & Wendy Hauser <ra...@sisuwest.us> wrote:

On 10/21/2014 9:28 AM, Susan E. Garlinghouse, DVM wrote:

As such, there's some pretty fuzzy areas in where B vitamins stop being a nutrient and start being a drug, wouldn't you say?

All of which just says that let's have two rules.  One about drugs, the other about the abuse of nutrients by administering them in abnormal amounts.  If I remember the original AERC rules correctly, this was covered.

Those that weren't around in the 90's would do well I think to read the drug rule developed during that period by the leadership of Dr. Ridgeway.  It covered both in a succinct well written rule.

As far as wormers, sure we need to use them.  I would support the AERC having a rule that they should not be used within a certain number of days of a competition. Personally, I do not worm my horses during or right before competition just because the wormer might not improve their ability to compete.  

As far as complaining that the small detectable amounts of a drug after 5 half lives makes "drug-free" obsolete.  As a scientest I am fully aware that modern chemistry can detect things like this.  I'm sure that every animal in N America has detectable amounts of drugs, poisons, and radio active residues from atomic energy.  It is neither difficult, or bad logic to define, for the purposes of AERC competition, an extremely low and reasonable limit to residues of drugs.  If a Phillidephia lawyer wants to claim that this is bad use of the English language, I would point him to the fine print where I define "drug-free" to be these extremely low levels. 

Absolutely.  If we look hard enough we are all radio active.  We all carry traces of what we have put in our bodies or horses bodies for the last month maybe six months.  In reality what is "drug free" for the AERC or any managing body of athletics is "drug free of any effects - positive or negative - of drugs."  Five half lives, 10 half lives - pick a number greater >= five works for that.  I take a random drug test from time to time as a requirement for a security clearance.  All military personnel also take a random drug test from time to time.   None of our systems are fully drug free in a rigid sense.  A counter intelligent officer told me some time back that they are now finding very low levels of THC in test coming from Colorado.  Well duh it is now legal and in gets into the system by just breathing in many places.  However, the US Department of Defense does not have any issues with determining who is "using THC" and who has just came into contact with it in an open environment.  

Anyone that claims that testing obsoletes any need for the AERC to maintain a good drug policy is smoking something funny or drinking some strange cool aid ;-)!

Truman

Ed

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Ed & Wendy Hauser
5729 175th Ave.
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Ed: (406) 381-5527
Wendy: (406) 544-2926

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Thomas Jefferson

[Kchaton]

I think a lot of people are agreeing with Ed, Truman and Kathy.  I knew it would only be a matter of time before omeperazole was allowed, given that it is allowed in FEI endurance and is also allowed in Australia.  There are good arguments on both sides.  My fear is that riders will use this medication as a way to ride their horses further, faster, or even more frequently. 

I agree that giving a small dose to reduce the stress of long trailer trips can be beneficial but I don't agree that horses should be competing on it.  Since this has been passed already, all each of us can do is what we believe is in the best interest of our own horses.  If my horses can't compete without being on drugs and having problems then I won't keep competing on them.  I feel that we need to be aware of possible side effects especially with long term use and also realize that some horses are just not cut out for endurance.  I totally see riders using this medication as a way to improve their ride times because they will no longer have to be as careful about managing their horses by slowing down, spending more time at vet checks, allowing their horses to graze on the trail or carrying feed along.  I know some riders will still try to manage their horses the best they can totally drug free but it's the ones that will take advantage of this change that makes me question what is really in the best interest of the horse.  Maybe allowing horses to compete on drugs is what is in the best interest of some, since we all know riders that are going to push regardless? 

I would also wonder how many riders will just simply start using omeperazole all of the time, regardless of whether or not their horse needs it?  I just had my two horses scoped for ulcers.  Chief (14,275 miles) did not have any, and Pro Bono (8,065 miles) had very small minor grade 1 lesions and was treated.  Both of these horses have completed a lot of miles, including the entire 2040 mile long 2011 XP ride and did not experience any problems or show signs of ulcers, and I can't think of anything I've ever done in endurance that was as demanding as that event.  Chief and Bo were the only horses to complete the entire thing.  All of my endurance horses together have completed at least 40,000 miles and with very, very few problems over the last 20 years without using omeperazole.  I hope others, especially new riders realize that just because some are advocating this drug be used because it is supposed to be in the best interest of their horse will realize that endurance horses have been competing successfully for decades without it, and just maybe they don't need to be buying a drug that costs $38 a tube (current price that my vet clinic sells it for).  Or if they do, I hope they are careful about how they use it. 

Karen
http://www.enduranceridestuff.com

[Carla Richardson]

I hope Bo is doing well after his colic surgery.

Carla Richardson

[Chrystal Woodhouse]

Karen, interesting about the lack of ulcers in your horses- it made me think that instead of obsessing about Omeprazole- maybe there could be a study funded to identify,track and study horses who are NOT found to be with ulcers and see what the difference is:

Is it genes?

 Management?
 
The fact your horses have done so many miles they just don't get stressed about anything anymore??  Actually I think there is something to that.

 Are horses that are ridden a lot of miles but at a slower pace less likely to get ulcers  than horses in the Top Ten? ( I am making no judgements here and as I have virtually no access to multi day rides and a short competitive season that would not be something I would or could do and I like Top Ten,,, just wondering out loud) also perhaps if that was shown to be beneficial maybe people would go to more multi days???

Is it some super doooper , extra strong lining in your horses stomach? :-)
Is it something you feed and maybe do not know it is helping your horse?
Does Karen use way less elytes than other people? ( Just using Karen's name. insert any name with a horse who scoped free of ulcers)

Would  Karen's horse scope free in the middle of a heavy ride season?

At this point ulcers are a problem and here to stay for the foreseeable future, I would love to see a focus on the horses  that can scope clean  and see if there are any common denominators,.  I actually do not think management will be a huge one , good mgt practices to avoid ulcers are pretty well known at this point and carried out by most endurance type people. At least the ones I know.

However maybe something new could come to light, as in, the more you take your horse to rides, the less likely he/she is to get ulcers.....? Knowledge is  power and a way to help our horses.

Chrystal :-)

[Carla Richardson]

I'm curious  about the dosage Karen used of Pentosan injections, used in both of her horses, I think.  I remember some discussion of this drug, some believed that Pentosan  was similar to MSM or bute in its anti-inflammatory effect.  I don't know if it is now FDA approved or not, some people use it as an inexpensive alternative to Adequan but the two are not at all the same.

Does Pentosan qualify as an anti-inflammatory along the same lines as bute?  Is it helpful or possibly harmful?

Carla Richardson

--

[Bruce Weary]

Just grist for the mill in this discussion, but what about vaccines? They are drugs, don't influence performance, but do help to prevent conditions a horse might develop from travel and exposure to stress and other horses. Would anyone bring an unvaccinated horse to an endurance ride? I like Dr. Garlinghouse's thoughts on this issue. We aren't really drug free, but that doesn't mean we are going headlong into a full blown pharmaceutical frenzy in endurance riding. Sometimes rules and policies are adopted in light of what is known at the time and new information sometimes calls for another look. The US Constitution is a good example.      Bruce Weary

[Karen]

I haven't used Pentosan on the horses in years.  Is it even still available? 

Karen

[Karen]

Yes, it's been almost six months and he has been absolutely fabulous.  I've made some changes with his management and if that doesn't work, say he has any even mile colics I'll retire him.  He did a lot of miles, multidays and 100's without having any issues so we will continue to take things cautiously one ride at a time.   Karen 

[Karen]

One of my previous high mileage horses was scoped clear of ulcers many years ago.  I think there is a lot to do with management as well as horse temperament.  My horses have had a light season for them, only 500 miles for Bo and 250 for Chief -- which is probably still more than most horses do.  They are being worked regularly and consistently. 

Bo's stomach actually looked great in the scoping (I posted photos on FB), it was the area leaving the stomach that they found a couple of small fly specs that were hardly anything compared to the merial poster showing what they considered to be grade 1 lesions. 

I'm not going to obsess about it - we followed the vet recommendations for treatment and if for some reason Bo has any issues at all I will find him something to do that is less stressful. 

Karen

[Karen]

I should also add, when I used Pentosan I followed the vets recommendations to give it a week or at least several days ahead of a ride.  It was more of a maintenance thing than something that was given for or right before an actual competition, like many riders that will use Legend right before a ride because of it's anti-inflammatory effects.  I haven't been able to tell any difference in the horses since I've stopped using it, though the Pentosan worked great on one of my old dogs at the time.  Karen

[Carla Richardson]

Colic is something we all fear.  I am so glad he's doing well.

Carla Richardson

[karen standefer]

Because omeprazole requires 4-5 days to become effective and then takes several days to get out of the system, this is not possible. 

Also, it should be cautioned that If you give the 4-5 days for it to become effective and then stop it, without titrating down, you stand the chance that you will increase stomach acid production significantly in using this practice.  It's probably counter productive to the health of your horse to make his competition day to be the day that his stomach creates the most stomach acid as it will probably also be a day that his stomach is less full of food than normal.

Karen S

---

Referenced Post:

[karen standefer]

And, how would you determine hind gut ulcers?  All we do currently is check for stomach ulcers when in fact, our sport probably precludes horses to hind gut ulcers more than stomach ulcers.  Omeprazole doesn't work for these and there is no way to scope for them either.

Karen

---

To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: Re: [RC] Drugs or no drugs... how about a study, start with Karen C's horses..
From: chry...@aadomino.ca
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 15:02:49 -0400

[Carla Richardson]

There are some tests on the market for hind gut ulceration. 

Carla Richardson

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 10/21/2014 2:30 PM, Bruce Weary wrote:

but what about vaccines? They are drugs,

I personally consider them to be simulations of infection.  They are attacked by the immune system which stimulates it to produce antibodies.  This is fundamentally different than something that changes a metabolic pathway.  To claim they should be classified the same way as Bute, Omeprazole, Opium etc. is attempting to cloud the issue.

If the average Philadelphia lawyer considers them drugs, I would support continuation of the present rule which clearly exempts them from classification as drugs. 

[Karen]

Well fortunately, (or unfortunately, to know this) my vet did not think that Bo has hind gut ulcers because of how the ultrasound looked when they did his surgery.  They said there is usually thickening or scarring of the gut if there are or had been a history of hind gut ulcers. 

I will have to check with the surgery clinic to find out about their recommendation to give Bo a small dose prior to traveling on a long trip.  So far, I have been very selective and have only taken him to local rides so it hasn't been an issue.  I would rather not use any drugs at all even a few days ahead if there is a chance of it causing a problem such an as increase in stomach acid while he is competing.  I don't want to worry about side effects, and would rather not compete at all with this horse if that is the case.  What a roller coaster ride it would be for the poor horse to get put on and taken off of meds like this, and I'm sure not going to even consider having him on them full time.

Karen 

[Carla Richardson]

You were blogging about using Pentosan injections in January  2012, so I assumed you were still using it.  That's just 2 years ago, I've never used it so don't know about availability.

Carla Richardson

[Karen]

Okay, so I haven't used it this year, or last year and probably used up the rest of what I had in 2012, mostly on the dogs. 

Karen

[Karen]

So giving a dose or two ahead of a long trailer trip is probably useless. 

I hope that riders reading this thread will do some research and learn more about how using omeprazole may affect their horses. 

Here are a couple of links:  http://www.quia.com/files/quia/users/medicinehawk/2207-Nutrition/Ulcers    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070129/ 

Karen    

[Diane Trefethen]

I don’t have an engineering background, but in general, I’ve disagreed with Lynn
White’s comments, primarily because they are logically flawed and contain too
many conflations. Furthermore, I am not interested in differentiating between a
drug that might be a nutrient sometimes or vice versa. Instead, I ask everyone
to consider the AERC drug policy* as it existed for years. It wasn’t perfect and
certainly our vet committee has succeeded in codifying many problematic areas.
Nevertheless, what is now missing is the SPIRIT of the original policy, an
absence highlighted by Susan’s attention to the minutia of whether a drug is a
supplement while ignoring whether the drug actually improves the performance of
the horses targeted for its use.

“Or by controlling and preventing a predictable disease state, at which

traveling endurance horses are at higher risk simply by attending and

participating, are we simply carrying out good preventative care of the horse?”

Asked this way, how could one answer no? But examine the question. Susan didn’t
say controlling and preventing a “disease.” She said “predictable disease
state.” There’s a big difference. A disease has a specific pathogen, protocol
for treatment and/or vaccine to prevent it. A predictable disease state is just
the appearance of being sick or being “under the weather” that could have been
predicted. Really? PREDICTED?? Like if the owner knew the horse couldn’t handle
trailering but she hauled him to a ride anyway? Or he was always too nervous to
eat or drink at rides but she went anyway? So do I want to prevent endurance
horses from getting a yucky, sticky disease, say like Strangles? Absolutely. Do
I want to prevent them from looking sick when they can be “cured” by not taking
them to endurance rides? Not so much so.

“Thirdly, the phrase "drug-free" sport is obsolete and unrealistic.”

This argument and what follows is specious, mainly because “drug-free” was never
intended to mean that an equine had never been administered any drugs in its
whole life. The old rule makes it clear that the principle involved is that
equines competing at rides not be “influenced by any drug, medication or
veterinary treatment.” Operative word is “influenced.”

But the one argument that really disappoints me is that to promote the
acceptability of “O”, Susan conflates two very different concepts.
1) The increased ability of analytical chemistry to detect insanely minuscule

parts-per-buhzillion of the remnants of drugs given weeks or even months earlier

and which have absolutely no effect on an equine’s behavior or performance, and
2) The idea that therapeutic doses of “O” are just like these teeny tiny
parts-per-buhzillion when in fact they are full blown doses that would probably
test with 30 year old equipment.

The former is a case where the drug’s efficacy is long gone and only modern
science can detect that it existed in the equine at all and the latter is a case
where the drug’s efficacy is at full strength, it is easily detectible, and by
Bruce’s and other admissions, that drug absolutely affects the level of the
equine’s performance.


*13. The integrity of Endurance Competition requires that the equine is not
influenced by any drug, medication or veterinary treatment. Endurance equines
must compete entirely on their natural ability. AERC prohibits from competition
equines who contain evidence of the administration of abnormal substances or of
normal substances in abnormal amounts (exogenously administered compounds even
if normally found endogenously).
2004 AERC Rules

[Diane Trefethen]

On 10/21/2014 1:03 PM, Karen wrote:
> I'm not going to obsess about it - we followed the vet recommendations for
> treatment and if for some reason Bo has any issues at all I will find him
> something to do that is less stressful.
>

Now THIS is the responsible attitude of a rider/owner who cares more about the
well-being of her horse than how much money she's going to lose because she
can't ride him in endurance any more.

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

Thanx Diane.  You excellently summarized my feelings on the subject.

While feeding my horses it suddenly came to me what I should have said in reply to Bruce's contention that vaccines are drugs.

I will concede that they are agents designed to prevent known diseases, thus they could be considered drugs.  If the AERC would decide to ban their use at or 5 days* prior to a ride, I can support that.  It is common knowledge that vaccines do make people feel "icky" for a few days.  Many people, Wendy and I included, have had horses that mope and go off feed after spring shots.  The good effects, that is preventing disease if exposed at a ride etc., take a week or more to develop.  The result is that anyone that thinks about it already does not vaccinate at or right before rides, so there is no problem to be addressed by drug tests, or rules.

Ed

*5 is just an arbitrary number.  Choose what you will it makes no difference to me.

[Mary K]

One rat study that eventually gets to a point, I promise (long tale that it is, this is a conflated account as there was one more bout of ulcers and one more impaction colic involved over the two years of this saga): our pony ulcered so badly he screamed and bit his hind legs til blood ran down trying to get at the monster that was eating his insides. One dose of 5 sucralfate tablets and he reverted to normal behavior instantly. So, we knew he had ulcers because the bandaid sucralfate took the pain away. Enter: omeprazole. Within four days he was fine, as long as he was on the drug. 6 weeks later we weaned him off the stuff slowly as recommended. A few weeks later we did the recommended thing at the time, gave him small doses daily before and during trailering to a ride near Bend. He exited the trailer and started colicking. Paced, wanted to roll, kicked his stomach, bit his sides, etc. We spent the weekend at Bend Equine where he was rehydrated to fix what turned out to be a fairly mild impaction colic. Since he was there we scoped him for ulcers--though that was dicey because he'd just undergone an 11 hour trailer ride, a colic, a night in a scary vet stall, and 24 hrs of no food. Unsurprisingly he had grade 2 (of their 5 level scale) ulcers. Back he went on another full course of omeprozole.

We considered keeping him on the stuff permanently--and several vets urged us to do that-- but a number of things kept bugging me: 1) why did he develop ulcers? He'd had years without them. 2) why didn't anyone seem interested in the cause, only in treating them? 3) if feeding a little alfalfa, using a slow feeder, keeping him in a herd setting but protected from dominant horses, feeding very few concentrates were all critical to ulcer free horses, why did he have them? He lives the most natural and stress free life imagineable! They cropped up when he wasn't competing/traveling and when he was. Friends cautiously suggested I needed to realize he had simply become a compromised animal, that I retire him.

Enter: Mary Nunn. "Feed that horse hay and water, just hay and water!"

Ok, it's been a year. The ulcers are a bad memory. The pony is back to his furry, roly poly, enthusiastic, gate-opening, trouble causing self. No more cinchiness, no more worried looks in the trailer. Instead he dives at snacks handed up during gas stops, buries his face in the water bucket, bangs on the metal sides when his hay bag runs low. I held my breath as he did an LD at Renegade (the Orange Loop!). He was fine, even enthusiastic. Then we went all the way to Owyhee, returning to where he and my eldest daughter first discovered LDs and 50's. This time he had my youngest aboard. They flew through the LD--whew. He seemed unfazed. Then they flew through a 50. He looked better than our big Arabs, one of whom had picked up a huge rock in her shoe and trotted out poorly for a completion--but no way were we going to start her again. So we worried and fretted but finally decided he looked sound and happy, so my eldest climbed on and off he went, zooming trough another 50! Three weeks later, he completed the rocky hilly 50 miles at Foothills, smiling all the while.

So what cured him? It wasn't omeprazole. In fact, I blame omeprazole for both of the impaction colics now that I read the fine print.

It was hay and water! The only thing we had changed in the year leading up to the ulcer troubles was adding in beetpulp mashes, big ones. Turns out ponies don't need "super fibers"....

So, knowing this is an entirely subjective and unscientific reaction, I no longer use beetpulp for anyone on the farm. We use salt for our electrolytes (ok, a quarter dose of dynaspark at a vetcheck if it's super muggy), and we feed a handful of alfalfa pellets and a handful of Ultium (about a lb total) to which we add vitamins and equishure (1/4 dose of sodium bicarbonate once daily) cuz susan Garlinghouse told me to ;-)

Darn glad I didn't decide on a lifetime dose of a drug when the condition it helped remedy was avoidable long term through a simple feeding change....

[Mary K]

I worry omeprazole is a fairly complicated drug and that we do not fully understand it. Very recently we discovered a quarter dose is as effective as a full dose for instance. Are we being precipitous in admitting it to our sport? I totally get the pressures both ways--just worry we may take the simple path of doping a horse rather than investigating and treating the cause of an illness..... If even a few horses get to have a career because of the good effects of the drug, I'm all for it, as long as someone can prove to me it has no chance of causing gut slowing or incomplete digestion that leads to impaction colics as it seemed to do with our guy....

[Karen]

Thank you for posting, Mary.  Your story is one of the reasons why I am questioning whether or not I want to follow my vet surgeon's advice for Bo about giving him a 1/4 dose before trailering, as I really want him to be able to be managed without drugs that can cause possible future problems.  I would rather retire him, though he isn't a horse happy to be idle so still would need a job and I need to learn how to best manage him without causing him any further distress.  He totally loves being an endurance horse and has been completely excellent on his last couple of rides (post colic surgery).  Like one friend said, he may die from me (or rather, my husband) shooting him from the damage he does when he isn't kept busy before he colics again.  I'm glad your horse is now doing well and that you figured it out.  Karen 

[Teddy Lancaster]

HURRAY FOR YOU AND YOUR PONY!  Like the old saying: "Keep it simple, stupid"  I am 500% for "all natural".... Drugs are "cover-ups" not cures....

--

Teddy Lancaster
RUNNING BEAR
3404 Carl Allred Rd.
Franklinville, NC 27248
800-533-2327

"The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first,
the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second,
the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it." - Edward Dowling - [1941]

[Maryben Stover]

I often wonder how Witezarif managed to win Tevis six times on Alfalfa, grain and no electrolytes.  There are other HOF horses who lived on Alfalfa their whole lives and lived a long time, some into their 30's.  Not that I am advocating that everyone go buy some alfalfa to feed and stop giving electrolytes.  


..........mb

---

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 20:09:42 -0400
From: te...@runningbear.com
To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: Re: [RC] Drugs or no drugs....

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[Kathy Mayeda]

:)

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[Darcy]

My Samburu KA. Aka Sammy was raised all of his life on alfalfa.  It wasn't until last year he started to be supplemented with grain due to the lack of high quality alfalfa availability did he start to have difficulties.  He was euthanized last year at 33 due to seizure complications.  I have a number of horses that have lived all of their lives on #1 alfalfa (3rd or 4th cutting) and lived into their  mid 30s.  I suppose there would be some that would say, "Well if they had not been on alfalfa they may haves into their 40s."  I do not know.  What I do know is alfalfa is a balanced diet when given correctly that did not require large amounts of supplements.  

Cejlon will be going to Horse Plus 'End of Life Care Program' next week.  The woman I spoke with was a little stunned and pleased to hear that he was in his 30s.  Yep another one on alfalfa.  

D'Arcy

Sent from my iPad

[Truman Prevatt]

One of the greatest (human) athletes of all time lived on beer, whisky and hot dogs.  He would have set pitching records that would have lasted decades if not for the fact he was too good of a hitter to keep out of the lineup.  As it was the "Sultan of Swat" still holds some pitching records is the greatest baseball player to go down in history of the game- all the while living on beer, whisky and hot dogs. If Babe Ruth had played 162 games a year he would have established hitting records no one would have caught - drugs or not.   

Some have it some don't.  Some horses could eat cardboard and be great endurance horses.  Some don't have it to be an endurance horse no matter what drugs you use or how you manage them.  Most with proper feeding and proper care can do endurance at some level.  

At some point it must be realized that some horses are cut out for endurance, but some aren't.  Drugs are not going to make a horse that is not genetically predisposed to be able to handle the rigors of endurance including the travel a horse that thrives on endurance competition as many do.  Such horses should not be there especially if it requires the pharmacological effects of drugs to allow them to be there in the first place.

While the term "slippery slope" is over used - with this rule chnage the AERC has slipped and fallen on their butt and sliding "helter-skelter" at accelerating speed down the slippery slope.  

Truman

--

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friedrich Nietzsche, The Dawn

[karen standefer]

Mary K - Your experience is consistent with the newer study that shows that horses who have ulcers in the glandular area of their stomach are not helped, but are instead harmed, by treating with omeprazole.  It would have been very interesting to have known where his ulcers were. 

Horses who have ulcers in the squammous cell area are improved with Omeprazole.  And, many times they need assistance to begin the healing process even if it's just a couple of weeks on low doses of Omeprazole (again, from the more recent studies).

Karen

> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:48:07 -0700
> From: lazy...@comcast.net

> To: ride...@endurance.net
> Subject: Re: [RC] Drugs or no drugs....
>

[karen standefer]

Mary K - where were Bennie's ulcers located?  Top of the stomach, or lower part of the stomach?

> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:54:29 -0700

> From: lazy...@comcast.net
> To: ride...@endurance.net
> Subject: Re: [RC] Drugs or no drugs....
>

> I worry omeprazole is a fairly complicated drug and that we do not fully understand it. Very recently we discovered a quarter dose is as effective as a full dose for instance. Are we being precipitous in admitting it to our sport? I totally get the pressures both ways--just worry we may take the simple path of doping a horse rather than investigating and treating the cause of an illness..... If even a few horses get to have a career because of the good effects of the drug, I'm all for it, as long as someone can prove to me it has no chance of causing gut slowing or incomplete digestion that leads to impaction colics as it seemed to do with our guy....
>

[karen standefer]

Alfalfa contains fairly high amounts of calcium carbonate which neutralizes acid in both the stomach and hind gut.  In my opinion, it should be considered as a part of a management plan for ulcer prone horses on days that they are trained, trailered or competed. 

---

From: merr...@live.com
To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: Spam:***, RE: [RC] Drugs or no drugs....
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 17:11:28 -0700

I often wonder how Witezarif managed to win Tevis six times on Alfalfa, grain and no electrolytes.  There are other HOF horses who lived on Alfalfa their whole lives and lived a long time, some into their 30's.  Not that I am advocating that everyone go buy some alfalfa to feed and stop giv ing electrolytes.  

[karen standefer]

Yes.  I've used them and the two horses that I've had who were scoped positive for stomach ulcers, one came up positive for hind gut and the other negative using the Succeed test.  I haven't done the sugar test.  But, I do know that there are several vets that question the efficacy of the Succeed tests.  Certainly though, in both my horses situation, the Succeed test mirrored what I was seeing in the horse and also what palpating the acupuncture points also indicated.   

Karen

---

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 15:04:01 -0600
Subject: RE: [RC] Drugs or no drugs... how about a study, start with Karen C's horses..
From: richards...@gmail.com
To: ride...@endurance.net