Why conduct postmortems?

[k s swigart]

Lynn said:

> So what is the prefered outcome of knowing this?  I think there

> are plenty of "I told you so's" out there.  Enough already.  Let's

> move on and concentrate on the future of AERC.  ... Let's ... quit

> openning up old wounds by finger pointing at something that may

> have happened 10 years ago.  It can't be undone whoever was at fault.

There are lots of reasons for conducting postmortems despite the fact that whatever death you are investigating cannot be undone.

The purpose for doing them it to see if you can determine what the cause was and learn from it so future outcomes may be different.

Currently I have in my freezer the front legs of a horse that was euthanized last week because she had untreatable heel pain from navicular syndrome.  These legs are in my freezer so I can give them to a vet and we can dissect them and perhaps find out more about navicular syndrome, its causes, symptoms and treatments.  And I am eager to have this done.  Not because I want to point a finger of blame. Not because I think by doing so it will "undo" whatever the cause was for this horse (after all she is dead and nothing I can do will change that), but to perhaps contribute to knowledge that will keep the same thing from happening to some other horse.

There are damned good reasons for conducting postmortems, and they have nothing to do with finger pointing.

If people are unwilling to look back over the past and determine what may have been the causes of current conditions because they don't want to "open up old wounds" then nothing can be learned from having suffered those wounds. 

The purpose for asking, "what did we do wrong in the past?" is to discover "what can we do differently next time?"

And it would be hilariously funny if it weren't so pathetic that the people who are most often silenced or ignored are the ones who can legitimately say "I told you so."

People who legitimately get to say "I told you so" are, arguably, the people who should be listened to most. Because they are the ones who, if they had been listened to in the beginning, may have kept the "old wounds" from ever happening.  There are few things stupider than refusing to listen to somebody who has proven themselves to be prescient.

The smart thing to say to a prescient person is, "You were right; I should have listened to you before; I will try to listen to you in the future."  Whereas, instead what most such people are told is "Shut up. I don't want to hear it." 

This tendency of people to refuse to listen to people who are proven right in their ability to predict the future is not new.  There is a millennia old Greek myth about just this phenomena. All those thousands of years ago the Greeks probably found it both funny and pathetic at the same time as well.

So...the "preferred outcome of knowing this" would be to learn that the next time somebody is caught in bad behavior that ignoring it or responding tepidly to it will lead to worse outcomes down the road. I have seen little indication that either the AERC or the FEI has learned this lesson.

Personally, my goal in life is to never again be in a position where I get to say "I told you so."  "I told you so" means that I saw something bad coming, and I tried to avert it but couldn't.

One way, of course, to avoid ever being in a position where you get to say "I told you so" is to take the advice of people who don't want to hear from you and just don't try to avert the bad things you see coming.  This doesn't keep the bad things from happening, but because you didn't say anything, you won't have to say "I told you so."

kat

Orange County, Calif.

:|

[Don Huston]

 

 

From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ridecampre...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of k s swigart
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 8:22 AM
To: Ridecamp Teeter
Subject: [RC] Why conduct postmortems?

 

Lynn said:

 

> So what is the prefered outcome of knowing this?  I think there

> are plenty of "I told you so's" out there.  Enough already.  Let's

> move on and concentrate on the future of AERC.  ... Let's ... quit

> openning up old wounds by finger pointing at something that may

> have happened 10 years ago.  It can't be undone whoever was at fault.

 

Kat said:

 

The smart thing to say to a prescient person is, "You were right; I should have listened to you before; I will try to listen to you in the future."  Whereas, instead what most such people are told is "Shut up. I don't want to hear it." 

 

Hillary Clinton said:

 

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!!!

 

Don Huston

I would vote for Kat if she ran for President.

[Carla Richardson]

Yes, Hillary Clinton said "What difference does it make," and she then said she wanted to

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[Carla Richardson]

Well, you opened this conversation, Don.

Hillary Clinton has been taken out of context so many times, and it's so very easy to completely distort the meaning, isn't it .  This quote was in one of the many "Benghazi hearings."  What Senator Johnson and Secretary Clinton said during the Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on Jan. 23, 2013, in part, and what the Senate Republican uproar was about, was it terrorism or was the attack caused by protest demonstrations, did the administration know.

"Johnson: No, again, we were misled that there were supposedly protests and that something sprang out of that -- an assault sprang out of that -- and that was easily ascertained that that was not the fact, and the American people could have known that within days and they didn’t know that.

Clinton:  With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that they’d they go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator. Now, honestly, I will do my best to answer your questions about this, but the fact is that people were trying in real time to get to the best information. The IC has a process, I understand, going with the other committees to explain how these talking points came out. But you know, to be clear, it is, from my perspective, less important today looking backwards as to why these militants decided they did it than to find them and bring them to justice, and then maybe we’ll figure out what was going on in the meantime.

Johnson: OK. Thank you, Madame Secretary."

It is extremely deceptive to take quotes out of context.  CLEARLY, Secretary Clinton said,

"It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator. "

Now, why would the very next sentence be left out?  Huh, the truth matters, right?  Half truths distort.

So seek the cause, and prevent repeated mistakes.

Carla Richardson

[Bruce Weary]

   The dictionary tells us that "prescience" is defined as "the ability to know what will or might happen in the future."   To heck with all this AERC stuff, Kat if you are endowed with this particular ability, we need to do a road trip to Vegas!   You pack the cooler, and I'll fire up the convertible!    Bruce

--

[Lynn White]

Kat,

 

Please stay on the subject.  The fact that you have two front legs in your freezer has nothing to do with what someone willingly did to a horse 10 years ago.  And what Hillary said to congress has nothing to do with this subject either.  Hillary has skeletons to hide and four people were needlessly murdered on her watch.  She should have known better, and it is well documented that she knew there were problems brewing in Libya.

 

When so-an-so obvioulsy  drugged a horse it had never been done before and nobody could fathom someone doing this.  We know better know and it will NEVER happen again in an AERC ride, at least not in such an apparent obvious manner. 

 

Let it go already.  Nobody even knows who it was off the top of thier heads.  Does anyody remember the top ten finishers in Tevis in, say, 1981? 

 

-Lynn

[Lynn White]

People who constantly wag the I-told-you-so finger get ignored not just because people don't want to hear the truth.  It's because when people finally "get it" they don't like to be reminded that they were wrong, and they certainly don't like to take a beating over and over again. 

 

I think the majority of AERC members get it now.  So let it go and move on.

[Diane Trefethen]

Dear Carla,

Thank you for quoting the actual testimony by Ms Clinton. While those who
wish only to embarrass her and President Obama persistently quote her words
out of context leading to the interpretation, "I don't care about what
happened or why," which is actually the OPPOSITE of her testimony, a full
reading leads to the interpretation, "At this point, regardless of what was
in the minds of the terrorists, we need to know what happened and how we
can prevent such an attack from reoccurring.”

As you said, "Half truths distort." That is why we have the saying, "A half
truth is a whole lie." It is also why when a witness is sworn in at court,
s/he is required to tell "the whole truth," not just a convenient portion
thereof for the sole purpose of painting a false picture, as do the
Republican (primarily) witch hunters.

Now as to the cheating in FEI/AERC rides. As I remember* it happened in
Canada and the jockey got a one year’s suspension from AERC rides because
in AERC endurance, the “rider” is named in our rules over 12 times as often
as the “owner,” and the “trainer” and the “groom” not at all. WHY? Because
in OUR version of endurance, the rider is usually all those things. So the
probable culprit skated while the rider got a year’s suspension but since
he lived in Group VII, that really wasn’t too tough on him.

*What ride was that? Well, you cannot search the Ridecamp archives and
they’ve changed how the AERC Forum works so I don’t see any way to search
that either. Reminds me of the human brain. Here we have a device that can
store gobs of information attached to an absolutely horrendous
(non-existent) data retrieval system :(

Diane Trefethen
AERC #2691
West Region

[Joe Long]

Hmmm, politics getting into this, quite a minefield.  I've seen discussion groups dedicated to a particular topic or activity destroyed when politics got involved (a once-proud poker newsgroup where all the poker players left and only a few extremists shouting about politics remain, for example).

I began this by writing a rebuttal, but I deleted that.  This is not the place for it.  Please leave the politics out of this list.

Carla Richardson

March 31, 2015 at 10:44 AM

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Carla Richardson

March 31, 2015 at 10:21 AM

Yes, Hillary Clinton said "What difference does it make," and she then said she wanted to

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Don Huston

March 31, 2015 at 9:43 AM

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[Carla Richardson]

Yeah Joe, but I'm not the one who brought politics in.  However, I won't let a slur go unanswered.  Maybe you should have told Don to leave politics out.

Carla Richardson

[Don Huston]

Yeah Carla….it was not a slur…it was exactly what she said.

Hillary has verbalized exactly what is wrong with our spineless leaders of all stripes.

 

Don Huston

[Carla Richardson]

Half truth is the same as a lie.

I guess you're ok with lying.

Carla Richardson

[Truman Prevatt]

Carla, 

You expect the press to actually give full in context reports?  Yellow journalism lives on out of context sound bites and half truths. 

However, it would probably make sense to get back to at least talking about horses if not endurance. 

Truman

--

"The greater our knowledge increases, the greater our ignorance unfolds."
   - John F. Kennedy

On Apr 1, 2015, at 8:13 AM, Carla Richardson <richards...@gmail.com> wrote:

Half truth is the same as a lie.

I guess you're ok with lying.

Carla Richardson

On Mar 31, 2015 11:19 PM, "Don Huston" <donh...@cox.net> wrote:

Yeah Carla….it was not a slur…it was exactly what she said.

Hillary has verbalized exactly what is wrong with our spineless leaders of all stripes.

 

Don Huston

 

From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ridecampre...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carla Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 8:16 PM
To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: Re: [RC] Why conduct postmortems?

 

Yeah Joe, but I'm not the one who brought politics in.  However, I won't let a slur go unanswered.  Maybe you should have told Don to leave politics out.

Carla Richardson

On Mar 31, 2015 5:48 PM, "Joe Long" <jl...@chiprider.com> wrote:

Hmmm, politics getting into this, quite a minefield.  I've seen discussion groups dedicated to a particular topic or activity destroyed when politics got involved (a once-proud poker newsgroup where all the poker players left and only a few extremists shouting about politics remain, for example).

I began this by writing a rebuttal, but I deleted that.  This is not the place for it.  Please leave the politics out of this list.

<image001.jpg>

Carla Richardson

March 31, 2015 at 10:44 AM

Well, you opened this conversation, Don.

Hillary Clinton has been taken out of context so many times, and it's so very easy to completely distort the meaning, isn't it .  This quote was in one of the many "Benghazi hearings."  What Senator Johnson and Secretary Clinton said during the Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on Jan. 23, 2013, in part, and what the Senate Republican uproar was about, was it terrorism or was the attack caused by protest demonstrations, did the administration know.

"Johnson: No, again, we were misled that there were supposedly protests and that something sprang out of that -- an assault sprang out of that -- and that was easily ascertained that that was not the fact, and the American people could have known that within days and they didn’t know that.

Clinton:  With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that they’d they go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator. Now, honestly, I will do my best to answer your questions about this, but the fact is that people were trying in real time to get to the best information. The IC has a process, I understand, going with the other committees to explain how these talking points came out. But you know, to be clear, it is, from my perspective, less important today looking backwards as to why these militants decided they did it than to find them and bring them to justice, and then maybe we’ll figure out what was going on in the meantime.

Johnson: OK. Thank you, Madame Secretary."

It is extremely deceptive to take quotes out of context.  CLEARLY, Secretary Clinton said,

"It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator. "

Now, why would the very next sentence be left out?  Huh, the truth matters, right?  Half truths distort.

So seek the cause, and prevent repeated mistakes.

Carla Richardson

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<image001.jpg>

Carla Richardson

March 31, 2015 at 10:21 AM

Yes, Hillary Clinton said "What difference does it make," and she then said she wanted to

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<image001.jpg>

[Carla Richardson]

I agree that I would much rather talk about horses and endurance.

The point is important, however, that the entire picture, to search and find the truth, is worth the time and effort.  Spreading lies is not in the public's best interest, I believe that strongly.  And I think it's important to fight lies.

Carla Richardson

[Joe Long]

I politely requested that EVERYONE leave politics out.  Also, I did let your claims go unanswered on the list,  I sent my reply about that to you only.  If everyone feels that they need to not let political claims "go unanswered" before long a majority of the emails could be political.  Then it gets nasty.  I've seen that happen.

Carla Richardson

March 31, 2015 at 9:15 PM

Yeah Joe, but I'm not the one who brought politics in.  However, I won't let a slur go unanswered.  Maybe you should have told Don to leave politics out.

Carla Richardson

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
jl...@chiprider.com
A++ G+ PKR+ PEG+ B+ M+

[Diane Trefethen]

On 4/1/2015 7:01 AM, Truman Prevatt wrote:
> Carla,
>
> You expect the press to actually give full in context reports? Yellow
> journalism lives on out of context sound bites and half truths.

Ah Truman. The quotes from Hilary's testimony were reported fully, at least
in all the real news outlets. It is we who don't fully read the reports who
are the problem.

All of us are inclined to remember things the way we wish they had been
instead of as they really were. The idyllic Main Street with the shady
trees, green lawns, lovely white houses, and little gardens of the late
1800s to mid 1900s is just that, an idyll. Not real, at least not for most
Americans. Unless you include the corrupt mayor, cops who could be bought,
the hobos at the back door, and all those other NOT so idyllic details.

So Don remembers what Hilary said, not in full but in the snarky fashion
that is in keeping with his anti-everything-Obama politics. Carla may or
may not support what Obama has become but she is right that we ordinary
folk ought not perpetuate half-truths. It's a bit like leaving the word
"not" out of all the Commandments and then claiming that your revised
version is the Word of God.

In any event, the point of this thread was to give support to the idea that
we return to our mistakes and analyze them. Let bygones be bygones applies
to ill feelings, not bad judgment or damaging errors.

[Joe Long]

Don ... please ... why comment here on Hillary at all?  Do you really think this is the place for that?  Do you really not expect others to respond in kind when you do?  Do you really want to start a fight over politics here?

Don Huston

March 31, 2015 at 11:19 PM

Yeah Carla….it was not a slur…it was exactly what she said.

Hillary has verbalized exactly what is wrong with our spineless leaders of all stripes.

 

Don Huston

 

[Sandra Adams]

wow - did Billary get a horse? If not, she has no place on this list. 

S. Adams
Deep Sands*Home of 
Salazar SF SE/AK/AF/H-ED
www.garyadamsbooks.com

[Don Huston]

Hello Joe,

 

I thought Kat was right on discussing how whitewashing an FEI horse drug abuse years ago could be why those particular FEI abusers are still being looked at as “no big deal” by our AERC leadership and Carla and Lynn.

 

Then Lynn and Carla started their chatter about “it’s a long time ago, nobody remembers the guys name, cant do anything about it now, etc”. That sounded just like “What difference does it make” to me.

 

Truman is always quoting somebody so I thought those 2 would be delighted to have a quote from Hillary that summed up their position. J

 

Nobody jumps on Truman for his quotes from politicians.

 

Actually its not a fight about politics anyway. It’s a fight about ethics. Out leaders of all stripes do not seem to have any ethics anymore.

 

If the AERC board had any ethics and believed their own rhetoric about standing for the welfare of the horse, they would have severed ties with FEI and the Sheets long ago. Ya…Sheets.

 

If Hillary had any ethics and believed her own rhetoric about trying to keep US citizens safe, then the Marines would have been mobilized and Bengazi would have been a different story.

 

Don Huston

 

 

From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ridecampre...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Long
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 8:39 AM
To: Ridecamp (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [RC] Why conduct postmortems?

 

Don ... please ... why comment here on Hillary at all?  Do you really think this is the place for that?  Do you really not expect others to respond in kind when you do?  Do you really want to start a fight over politics here?

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[Carla Richardson]

Never, ever, have I said that any FEI abuse, drugging or other abuse, did not matter.

You are now lying about what I have said, Don.  How ridiculous.

Carla Richardson

[Lynn White]

Don, me too. 

Please go back and read what I said origninally.  I said, " So what is the preferred outcome of knowing this?"   I did not say that it was accidental or that it didn't matter.  Of course it matters.  But beating someone (whom one can't even identify) over the head for something that happened 10 years ago when very few people can come up with the incident is absurd.   If there is no clear ojective for openning up a cold case what is the point? Do you want to go after the RM? How about the officials?  How about all the other people that saw what was going on?  Good luck with that.

 

We all know the identity and mentality of the cheaters and it is well documented what they have done over the years on scores of rides all over the world. They have a horrible reputation that will take years to overcome, if they actually care about what we think of them.   Everbody knows this.  The AERC BoD "Gets It" now.  So move on.

 

Regards,

 

Lynn

[k s swigart]

Lynn said:

> But beating someone (whom one can't even identify)

 ....

> We all know the identity and mentality of the cheaters ...

Does anybody besides me find these two statements to be slightly contradictory?

I don't think we do all know the identity of the individual cheaters (only individuals can cheat, just as only individuals can act), and that IS the question that I asked, and I confess I did it in a disparaging way by lumping all the princes together as "sheikhlets."

However, it is my understanding that there are countless INDIVIDUALS, and I consider it inappropriate to tar them all with the same brush and assume that they all are as "guilty" as their assorted relations (brothers, cousins, etc.)

> and it is well documented what they have done over the

> years on scores of rides all over the world.

Really?  And here I thought that part of the problem was that none of it could be documented.  And that, in fact, part of the goal of the EPSG was to foster better documentation*?

Since Lynn doesn't want to delve into the past to discover the name of the individual cheater, at the whatever event it was that nobody really remembers so we couldn't look for documentation even if it did exist, there is no way to know if there is a lesson to be learned there or not.

It is WRONG to assume that it was the same guy, or if not then "somebody just like him."

It could be that that individual (whoever he was since nobody remembers) actually learned NOT to cheat or drug endurance horses at that event and has been an (ignored?) voice within the UAE and his own family because he has been told by others (like so many people are told here) that past experiences don't matter, and that, in fact he doesn't participate in endurance riding at all because he can't stand the fact so many of the other participants cheat such that he doesn't want to play with them.

Since nobody knows his name (and it doesn't appear to be recorded anywhere--at least not anywhere easily accessible), there is no way to determine this.

Insisting that the names of the individuals doesn't matter is just plain wrong.  It is based on the premise that "they are all the same and interchangeable because they are related to each other, or because they come from the same country."  And this is the basis of racial stereotyping, so pardon me if I don't choose to participate in that particular assumption.

kat

Orange County, Calif.

* It is the action of creating false documents that the UAE NF was suspended for.  Things cannot be "well documented" if the people creating the documents forge them.  And it would be wrong to assume that the only documents that the UAE NF has forged are the ones that have been identified as forged.  This action on their part calls into question the validity of EVERY document of EVERY FEI event world-wide. Because things also cannot be well documented if the people responsible for collecting the documents cannot (or do not) identify forgeries.

[Sandra Adams]

What are the chances of leaving the private assessments to private exchanges? I get lost in the personal stuff when all I want to know is what the status of the mess of abuse is. 

S. Adams
Deep Sands*Home of 
Salazar SF SE/AK/AF/H-ED
www.garyadamsbooks.com

[Darcy]

I couldn't agree more Sandy!  And as it happens maybe the 'postmortem' of this thread needs to end as well.  :)

Sent from my iPad

[Carla Richardson]

I'm sure that if someone accused you of saying something, or "chattering" about something that you had not said, at all, you wouldn't reply to set that straight, right, Sandy and Darcy?

Carla Richardson

[Lynn White]

With Easter coming it's a good time to reflect on the whole concept of forgiveness and moving forward.  If bringing up an  old transgression isn't going to bring up something positive,  it's best to leave it in the hole, hatchet, handle, and all.  I think this is my third attempt at making this point.    Either one gets it or they don't.  For the people that don't get it, I feel sorry for them.  It must be a drag to go through life with all that guilt.  Because we all make mistakes. 

 

I prefer to avoid the toxicity of conjuring up the mistakes of others, especially when there is nothing to be gained.

 

Cheers, and happy Easter.

 

-Lynn

[Maryben Stover]

I agree with Lynn.  We need to get over it.  That being said I could not resist your comment about guilt.  I was raised Irish/Italian and Catholic.  Guilt is in my DNA....................LOL



..........mb

---

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 16:00:44 -0600

Subject: Re: [RC] Why conduct postmortems?

From: ldlw...@gmail.com
To: ride...@endurance.net

[Truman Prevatt]

On Apr 2, 2015, at 6:20 PM, Maryben Stover <merr...@live.com> wrote:

 I was raised Irish/Italian and Catholic.  

Well now, that explains a lot ;-).

Truman

..........mb

__
“The future is not a gift. It is an achievement.”  Robert F. Kennedy