[Trails Matter] It's time to stand up for our Constitution
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Endurance.Net
Aug 27, 2015, 10:19:46 AM8/27/15
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TheSpectrum.com - Full Article
Ray Kuehne, Writers Group
1:36 p.m. MDT August 25, 2015
For years, I’ve listened to people demand that the feds “give back” our public land to the states.
Their language pushes the myth that the land was stolen from the states. However, history shows that our first public land was under national management before the Constitution was written, and that the Founding Fathers, in Article IV, gave Congress sole authority to determine the use and disposition of it and all western land the U.S. later acquired.
Our Founders also created a government to prevent individuals, regions, or interest groups from gaining power for themselves...
Read more here:
http://www.thespectrum.com/story/opinion/2015/08/25/public-lands-constitution-bundy-ivory/32325123/
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Posted By Endurance.Net to Trails Matter at 8/27/2015 08:19:00 AM
Ray Kuehne, Writers Group
1:36 p.m. MDT August 25, 2015
For years, I’ve listened to people demand that the feds “give back” our public land to the states.
Their language pushes the myth that the land was stolen from the states. However, history shows that our first public land was under national management before the Constitution was written, and that the Founding Fathers, in Article IV, gave Congress sole authority to determine the use and disposition of it and all western land the U.S. later acquired.
Our Founders also created a government to prevent individuals, regions, or interest groups from gaining power for themselves...
Read more here:
http://www.thespectrum.com/story/opinion/2015/08/25/public-lands-constitution-bundy-ivory/32325123/
--
Posted By Endurance.Net to Trails Matter at 8/27/2015 08:19:00 AM
Endurance.Net
Aug 27, 2015, 10:19:48 AM8/27/15
to consid...@endurance.net
Lynn White
Aug 27, 2015, 11:30:02 AM8/27/15
to ridecamp
The first two paragraphs nail the truth. Love them or hate them, the managers of our public lands walk a fine line of preserving what we have and managing the land so we can access it. I know many people do endurance as a means of escaping the stresses of our lives, but a big part of our sport depends on access to large tracts of accessible land. This is political and we have to be involved. There are many powerful people of both political extremes that would love nothing more than to lock up the access of OUR land completely and shut us all out. I've seen it happen in the Bennett Hills. Whether one leans Conservative or Liberal this is an issue we all have to get involved with as riders. We need to unite with all groups whether they are dirt bikers, hikers, ATV clubs, mountain bikers etc.
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Joe Long
Aug 27, 2015, 1:34:53 PM8/27/15
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Endurance.Net
August 27, 2015 at 8:19 AM
TheSpectrum.com - Full Article
Ray Kuehne, Writers Group
1:36 p.m. MDT August 25, 2015
For years, I’ve listened to people demand that the feds “give back” our public land to the states.
Their language pushes the myth that the land was stolen from the states. However, history shows that our first public land was under national management before the Constitution was written, and that the Founding Fathers, in Article IV, gave Congress sole authority to determine the use and disposition of it and all western land the U.S. later acquired.
Well, duh, before the western States existed the Federal government had
to control the land, there was no State there to do so.
IMO the States should have had most of their land passed to their control (other than military bases, courthouses and such) at the time they were admitted to the Union. Our system was (properly IMO) based on a union of States with the power of the Federal government being restrained. The States are democratic Republics as well, and IMO better suited to manage their land than the Federal Government.
IMO the States should have had most of their land passed to their control (other than military bases, courthouses and such) at the time they were admitted to the Union. Our system was (properly IMO) based on a union of States with the power of the Federal government being restrained. The States are democratic Republics as well, and IMO better suited to manage their land than the Federal Government.
Our Founders also created a government to prevent individuals, regions, or interest groups from gaining power for themselves...
MOST importantly they created a system to prevent the Federal Government
from gaining power for itself, but as anticipated (by Ben Franklin
among others) that has proved impossible to keep.
Joe Long
Aug 27, 2015, 1:41:03 PM8/27/15
to ride...@endurance.net
The first two paragraphs nail the truth. Love them or hate them, the managers of our public lands walk a fine line of preserving what we have and managing the land so we can access it. I know many people do endurance as a means of escaping the stresses of our lives, but a big part of our sport depends on access to large tracts of accessible land. This is political and we have to be involved. There are many powerful people of both political extremes that would love nothing more than to lock up the access of OUR land completely and shut us all out. I've seen it happen in the Bennett Hills. Whether one leans Conservative or Liberal this is an issue we all have to get involved with as riders. We need to unite with all groups whether they are dirt bikers, hikers, ATV clubs, mountain bikers etc.
True, but what gives you the idea that the Federal Government is a
better steward of our land than the States are? Why do you want
bureaucrats thousands of miles away in Washington making such decisions
instead of your own officials in your own State?
Lynn White
Aug 27, 2015, 2:13:02 PM8/27/15
to ridecamp
Joe,
It depends on who you trust more, the state or the feds. I'm kind of a "checks and balances" kind of gal. Where I live the state is horribly corrupt with a total absence of ethics in the way they do business. I'm probably the most conservative person around but I have learned that many politicians with "R" behind their names wouldn't recognize constitutional ideology if it bit them in the behind.
So from my perspective I trust the feds way more than I'd trust the so called leaders of my state. It's just a matter of who is the worst shyster. What I see happening is public access being sold off to the highest bidder (or best buddy of the Governor) so the remaining public land can not be accessed by us regular putzes. So these "Private Owners" get to have huge tracks of public land that only THEY can access. But hey, as soon as there's a fire on the public lands guess who gets to flip the bill to put it out? This has already happened in many states of the West and it just makes my blood boil.
Right not there is a rather large chunk of public land near were I am managing a ride that can't be accessed because some landowner won't grant access through the road that was actually built with public funds. So I'm kind of sensitive about trusting local government and the potential loss of access to public lands. As we stand right now we can pretty much ride where we want without having to beg and plead with some billionaire's lawyer. I've tried doing that and it doesn't work very well.
We have a huge backyard that we share with ranchers, hunters, recreationalists, etc. It's not perfect but it works. Let's not break it.
Regards,
Lynn
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Joe Long
Aug 27, 2015, 3:53:02 PM8/27/15
to ride...@endurance.net
I understand your point,
it is a big and diverse country and the situation varies widely.
Colorado is very big on its outdoor recreation, and does such things as
requiring developers to include open space and public trails in their
developments. A hundred feet from my front door is a trailhead, from
where I could go all the way to Wyoming or New Mexico without ever
leaving a public trail.
When I put on endurance rides years ago in Alabama, at the same time the Forest Service was pushing us off of some of our established trails, one of the trails went across private land owned by a paper company. Getting their permission to use it was easy, no hassle. Many of the Southeast rides used pipeline rights-of-way for parts of the trail, they were nice places to ride.
I fear that too many of the Washington bureaucrats are urban people with no experience or appreciation with trails or with horses, but are at the beck and call of the highly-paid lobbyists and the special interests who want to keep horses (and other non-hiking users) out. The Agriculture Department isn't the same as it was in "The Grapes of Wrath."
When I put on endurance rides years ago in Alabama, at the same time the Forest Service was pushing us off of some of our established trails, one of the trails went across private land owned by a paper company. Getting their permission to use it was easy, no hassle. Many of the Southeast rides used pipeline rights-of-way for parts of the trail, they were nice places to ride.
I fear that too many of the Washington bureaucrats are urban people with no experience or appreciation with trails or with horses, but are at the beck and call of the highly-paid lobbyists and the special interests who want to keep horses (and other non-hiking users) out. The Agriculture Department isn't the same as it was in "The Grapes of Wrath."
August 27, 2015 at 12:12 PM
Joe,It depends on who you trust more, the state or the feds. I'm kind of a "checks and balances" kind of gal. Where I live the state is horribly corrupt with a total absence of ethics in the way they do business. I'm probably the most conservative person around but I have learned that many politicians with "R" behind their names wouldn't recognize constitutional ideology if it bit them in the behind.So from my perspective I trust the feds way more than I'd trust the so called leaders of my state. It's just a matter of who is the worst shyster. What I see happening is public access being sold off to the highest bidder (or best buddy of the Governor) so the remaining public land can not be accessed by us regular putzes. So these "Private Owners" get to have huge tracks of public land that only THEY can access. But hey, as soon as there's a fire on the public lands guess who gets to flip the bill to put it out? This has already happened in many states of the West and it just makes my blood boil.Right not there is a rather large chunk of public land near were I am managing a ride that can't be accessed because some landowner won't grant access through the road that was actually built with public funds. So I'm kind of sensitive about trusting local government and the potential loss of access to public lands. As we stand right now we can pretty much ride where we want without having to beg and plead with some billionaire's lawyer. I've tried doing that and it doesn't work very well.We have a huge backyard that we share with ranchers, hunters, recreationalists, etc. It's not perfect but it works. Let's not break it.Regards,Lynn
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August 27, 2015 at 11:34 AM
Endurance.NetWell, duh, before the western States existed the Federal government had to control the land, there was no State there to do so.August 27, 2015 at 8:19 AMTheSpectrum.com - Full Article
Ray Kuehne, Writers Group
1:36 p.m. MDT August 25, 2015
For years, I’ve listened to people demand that the feds “give back” our public land to the states.
Their language pushes the myth that the land was stolen from the states. However, history shows that our first public land was under national management before the Constitution was written, and that the Founding Fathers, in Article IV, gave Congress sole authority to determine the use and disposition of it and all western land the U.S. later acquired.
IMO the States should have had most of their land passed to their control (other than military bases, courthouses and such) at the time they were admitted to the Union. Our system was (properly IMO) based on a union of States with the power of the Federal government being restrained. The States are democratic Republics as well, and IMO better suited to manage their land than the Federal Government.
MOST importantly they created a system to prevent the Federal Government from gaining power for itself, but as anticipated (by Ben Franklin among others) that has proved impossible to keep.Our Founders also created a government to prevent individuals, regions, or interest groups from gaining power for themselves...
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August 27, 2015 at 8:19 AM
TheSpectrum.com - Full Article
Ray Kuehne, Writers Group
1:36 p.m. MDT August 25, 2015
For years, I’ve listened to people demand that the feds “give back” our public land to the states.
Their language pushes the myth that the land was stolen from the states. However, history shows that our first public land was under national management before the Constitution was written, and that the Founding Fathers, in Article IV, gave Congress sole authority to determine the use and disposition of it and all western land the U.S. later acquired.
Our Founders also created a government to prevent individuals, regions, or interest groups from gaining power for themselves...
Posted By Endurance.Net to Trails Matter at 8/27/2015 08:19:00 AM --
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Lynn White
Aug 27, 2015, 4:31:10 PM8/27/15
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I'm with you Joe. It is just very, very important to pay attention to proposed legislation and keep on the good side of local management agencies whether they are state or federal. There is very little uniformity amongst offices. One BLM office can be run by someone friendly to ranchers while another one 50 miles away could have an axe to grind with ranchers. Personnel and budgets are stretched to the limits too.
I followed the Nevada incident very closely and came to the conclusion that the whole thing was more of a contest of who could be the biggest jerk/idiot/bully. The best thing that happened was so many people showing up. There were just too many witnesses, thank goodness. It could have gotten out of control very easily without all those people watching.
Barbara McCrary
Aug 27, 2015, 7:07:25 PM8/27/15
to jl...@chiprider.com, ride...@endurance.net
Agreed on paragraph 3. A good many politicians don’t know how country folk live, and they often create rules and policies that do not go along with country life. And non-rural people will vote for these because it suits THEM.
Barbara
Carla Richardson
Aug 28, 2015, 10:33:30 AM8/28/15
to ridecamp (E-mail)
Bundy should have been arrested, he has refused to pay his grazing fees. His antics and those who showed up with guns wer ed outrageous. Other ranchers have paid. Why should he be special. Most ranchers are not on Bundy's side, they see him as a cheater.
Carla Richardson
Lynn White
Aug 28, 2015, 12:54:21 PM8/28/15
to ridecamp
The whole Bundy situation was something that went on for years and years. Very convoluted story that involved introducing endangered tortoises to limit grazing, backroom deals for solar power farms, etc. Bundy was no angel in this saga either. Like I wrote earlier, it was more a farce to see who could be the biggest asshole. It had the potential of turning into another Ruby Ridge if it hadn't been for all the people (more like witnesses) showing up. The last thing I heard was that the tortoise program had been defunded and there was a move to go out and euthanize the poor tortoises. Animal rights people got involved and the tortoises appear safe for now. You just can't make this stuff up.
Michael Sherrell
Aug 30, 2015, 10:20:22 AM8/30/15
to Joe Long, Ridecamp
I will lean your way when I hear about corporations and private commercial interests complaining that local legislatures are creating too much wilderness and open space.
Mike Sherrell
From: Joe Long [mailto:jl...@chiprider.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 8:24 PM
To: Michael Sherrell
Subject: Re: [RC] [Consider This] [Trails Matter] It's time to stand up for our Constitution
August 28, 2015 at 7:29 PM
Nevada would. Obviously the local ranchers and other financial interests are going to have more pull in the state legislatures than in DC.
And you believe they should not? Why should the people who actually live there not have more say than the people who do not?
The things that go on in state legislatures get a lot less attention from the public and from the media in the state than do DC public affairs. As a Californian I definitely do not trust the legislatures of other states to keep nationally-owned lands out of the hands of local financial interests and unavailable to me.
With California as an example I can understand your concern. But all States are not California, or Nevada. You put a lot of faith in the lobbyist-owned and special-interest-pandering pols of DC.
I think segregation is a perfect, and perfectly legitimate, example of what happens when you give local and regional interests free rein.
I think it's just a sensational attack that has nothing to do with the question we're discussing. Sort of like injecting "Hitler" or "Nazis" into a discussion. IMO it's called upon when you don't have facts or logic on your side.
But mostly I think that state capitol affairs take place much more in the shadows than in DC, and the local money people (i.e., ranchers and developers) get their way a lot more there.
I disagree about State governments vs. the Federal government, and one more time, IMO it's the LOCAL people who SHOULD get our way more. A LOT more. The Federal Government go so much of the western land by bullying the territories into leaving it in their hands as a condition of Statehood, when IMO most of it should have passed to those States when they became a State.
Mike Sherrell
From: Joe Long [mailto:jl...@chiprider.com]
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 6:01 PM
To: Michael Sherrell
Subject: Re: [RC] [Consider This] [Trails Matter] It's time to stand up for our Constitution
Do you have any proof of States doing this, and which States? And if some do, isn't that properly the business of the people who LIVE in those States, and not people halfway across the country?
For me, I'd much rather have my neighbors in Colorado deciding how to manage our public lands rather than the pinheads in Washington.
Lynn White
Aug 31, 2015, 11:08:48 AM8/31/15
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No government, whether it be federal, state, or county should have 100% say in how public land should be managed. Management should be more of a three-legged chair with the three legs having equal power on what is to be done with federal land. This way no single entity can dictate to locals how federal land is to be managed. They all have to work together to come up with a solution that everyone can live with. It's not perfect and things don't get done over night, but it's the best system people have been able to come up with. This is the classic principle of "checks and balances" that minimizes corruption. Note I wrote "minimizes corruption." Our founding fathers set up the checks and balances system because they understood the corruptible nature of people.
Right now there is a huge portion of BLM land in Wyoming that is being stripped for coal. The reclaimed land after the coal mining is actually better than the pre-mined land with respect to vegetation and wildlife. Yep, it costs money but in the long run the finished landscape will be something locals can live with long after the mining is done. This is correct regulation in my opinion. If there was no federal government or no state/local participation in the land management we'd either see totally stripped wasteland or higher energy bills for everyone. It's a complicated world we live in and we all have to take part in it if we don't want to leave a mess to the generations that follow us.
My take on true political conservatism. I'll get off my soap box.
-Lynn
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Joe Long
Aug 31, 2015, 11:31:58 AM8/31/15
to Michael Sherrell, Ridecamp
Really? "All the
locals?" Well, you also think the Federal Government is somehow more
pure and more protective of the the interests of We the People than
State governments. I would point out that the Feds have been complicit
in nearly all of your examples (BTW, your laundry list is not all bad
things). Since I'm not up on the government activities of all the
States, perhaps your State is as bad as you think -- if so, I sympathize
with you.
Oh, BTW, try reading the Denver Post, it's full of just the kind of complaints you asked about.
I've participated in this thread event even though it's politics because it impacts directly on endurance riding, and our access to trails. But I think it's gone far enough.
Oh, BTW, try reading the Denver Post, it's full of just the kind of complaints you asked about.
I've participated in this thread event even though it's politics because it impacts directly on endurance riding, and our access to trails. But I think it's gone far enough.
August 30, 2015 at 8:20 AM
I will lean your way when I hear about corporations and private commercial interests complaining that local legislatures are creating too much wilderness and open space.
Mike Sherrell
707 322 7355
Truman Prevatt
Sep 1, 2015, 4:43:51 PM9/1/15
to Joe Long, Michael Sherrell, Ridecamp
As the founding president of the first BCHA chapter in Florida to the current president of BCHFL which has now has three chapters, two working with state land managers and one the USFS, I have worked quite a bit with both local land managers and federal land mangers. Let me tell you state land managers are no joy to work with and they are not held to the same accountability as federal land managers. Granted the federal bureaucracy is a pain including the NEPA process , however, the federal bureaucracy has much more accountability than I have seen in the state. The same bureaucracy we all complain about is the same bureaucracy that provides the accountability we need. While processes like NEPA are a pain - it can be a blessing because it generates a paper trail.
State land managers, paper trail, documentation - what’s that. Without documentation we the users have nothing but the political process which we will lose every time to monied interest.
I have had state forest management (and we are talking about 250 thousand acres of state forest land) have a change in management and not honor an agreement of the previous management. They told me to my face that well the previous manager did not document her decisions well so what she agreed to is no longer valid. I know she did because I signed the MOU along with her. This is after we had spent our money to produce maps for them! Now we are having to revisit all the trails. I have to secure legal council at our cost to deal with the jokers.
So another words I would not trust state land managers any further than I could throw them for one simple reason - lack of documentation requirements in most state land management offices. While USFS has its issues - the and bureaucratic process does demand documentation which at the end of the day if you have it you can roll it up and beat their bosses over the head and shoulders to get their attention. I’ve also done that and it worked quite well.
Truman
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“The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world” - Max Born
“The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world” - Max Born
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Nancy Reed
Sep 2, 2015, 9:24:39 AM9/2/15
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Truman,
Oh boy do I understand your pain! I suspect many, if not most ride managers do too. I sure hope you have a copy of the MOU. And please, use it to beat them up. Behind you, Nancy Reed (California)
Lynn White
Sep 2, 2015, 10:25:42 AM9/2/15
to ridecamp
Right on Truman! Now you know why I'd hate to see the BLM land get turned over to the states. The department of lands (endowment land) in my state is run pretty well, but all it takes is some cronyism and things get out of had pretty quick.
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