Feed selection

[Julie Hart]

My 14.1 hand Arabian, 7 years old, just started his endurance career this year.  I am concerned about the high levels of NSC (carbs) in feed these days..but understand he needs more than the average horse due to his work level.  Anyone else out there have the same concerns?  What are you feeding?

[koelli...@aol.com]

Purina Ultium

 

I love it and horse loves it too.

 

 

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[Sandra Adams]

Does anyone have an idea about the fat content comparably of these products, including Senior feeds? Sugar content?

S. Adams
Deep Sands*Home of 
Salazar SF SE/AK/AF/H-ED
www.garyadamsbooks.com

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[Debbie Parsons]

I stick with low NSC feeds. In my area I can get Triple Crown feeds and use the Senior. My very easy keepers are doing well on a ration balancer (Seminole Feed's Equalizer) and some molasses free beet pulp. If they need more calories I add rice bran or Buckeye's Ultimate Finish which I think has a bit lower NSC. 

When I switched my main horse to a low NSC diet he seemed to stay stronger throughout a ride. He had elevated muscle enzymes higher than expected after finishing Tevis in 2010 and the UC Davis vet involved in the blood study program suggested my horse may have some issues with sugar (even though he looked and felt great at the end). It was an easy change to make and did seem to make a difference. Now all my horses get fed the same way. Need to do some 50s on them to see how they do. 

Debbie

On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Julie Hart <jhart...@gmail.com> wrote:

My 14.1 hand Arabian, 7 years old, just started his endurance career this year.  I am concerned about the high levels of NSC (carbs) in feed these days..but understand he needs more than the average horse due to his work level.  Anyone else out there have the same concerns?  What are you feeding?

--

[Diane Trefethen]

There is a set of Winter subjects that we discuss every year to fill in the void
of not riding as much. This is one but the issue is NOW so I am raising it now.
From an article on theguardian.com:

By Monica Potts, Guardian UK
28 July 14

If you buy your chicken from the supermarket, here are a few things about its
life that might make you less eager to eat it. As a chick, your chicken's beak
was cut off so that it wouldn't attack other chickens in the overcrowded cage in
which it was raised… Once your chicken was slaughtered, it was tossed into a
chlorinated bath or doused with other industrial-grade chemicals so that your
chicken would reach you "clean".

But "clean", when it comes to meat, is a relative standard. Most chickens spend
the bulk of their short lives covered or standing in feces and the way in which
they are dispatched in the modern era is so sordid that farm states are actually
passing laws to keep you from ever bearing witness to the slaughter.

Old Macdonald had a farm – once – but corporations interested in maximizing
profits bought him out.

The one small hope for human health has been that the US Department of
Agriculture has inspectors to watch over those processing plants and make sure
we don't eat sick chickens or chickens covered in their own feces as they make
their way through the processing plant… until now.

The USDA is moving toward final approval of a rule that would replace most
government inspectors with untrained company employees, and to allow companies
to slaughter chickens at a much faster rate… It could be approved as soon as
this week.

This "modernization" of inspections through privatization is likely to cause
more problems than already occur because the company employees will be
disinclined to cost their bosses money…

The rule comes in the midst of a years-long increase in the number of food-born
illnesses, driven in part by a shortage of government inspectors.

As the International Business Times reported:
An increase in the incidence of salmonella in the U.S. could have a real
impact on consumers… Salmonella 'is estimated to cause 1.2 million illnesses in
the United States, with about 23,000 hospitalizations and 450 deaths' each year,
according to a recent report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
A study of more than 300 raw chicken breasts released by Consumer Reports
earlier this year found that 10.8 percent harbored salmonella, while 65.2
percent tested positive for E. coli. Overall, about 97 percent of the breasts
tested contained harmful bacteria, according to the study.

Of course, chicken processors are hardly the only offenders. Almost every kind
of animal slaughtered in the United States is pumped full of drugs and raised in
unsustainably large factory farms.
----------------------------------------------------

So next time you feel like bitching about horse slaughter, have equal compassion
for the lesser animals that suffer too and whose maltreatment has a much broader
impact on all Americans, not just horse-lovers. The USDA desperately needs more
funding and inspectors and new rules to cope with the modern travesty we call
agribusiness. It does not need its impact to be reduced to rubber stamp status.

[koelli...@aol.com]

AMEN!!

 

 

:

By Monica Potts, Guardian UK
28 July 14

If you buy your chicken from the supermarket, here are a few things about its 
life that might make you less eager to eat it. As a chick, your chicken's beak 
was cut off so that it wouldn't attack other chickens in the overcrowded cage in 

which it was raised… Once your chicken was slaughtered, it was tossed into a 
chlorinated bath or doused with other industrial-grade chemicals so that your 
chicken would reach you "clean".

But "clean", when it comes to meat, is a relative standard. Most chickens spend 
the bulk of their short lives covered or standing in feces and the way in which 
they are dispatched in the modern era is so sordid that farm states are actually 

passing laws to keep you from ever bearing witness to the slaughter.

Old Macdonald had a farm – once – but corporations interested in maximizing 
profits bought him out.

The one small hope for human health has been that the US Department of 
Agriculture has inspectors to watch over those processing plants and make sure 
we don't eat sick chickens or chickens covered in their own feces as they make 
their way through the processing plant… until now.

The USDA is moving toward final approval of a rule that would replace most 
government inspectors with untrained company employees, and to allow companies 
to slaughter chickens at a much faster rate… It could be approved as soon as 
this week.

This "modernization" of inspections through privatization is likely to cause 
more problems than already occur because the company employees will be 
disinclined to cost their bosses money…

The rule comes in the midst of a years-long increase in the number of food-born 
illnesses, driven in part by a shortage of government inspectors.

As the International Business Times reported:
     An increase in the incidence of salmonella in the U.S. could have a real 
impact on consumers… Salmonella 'is estimated to cause 1.2 million illnesses in 
the United States, with about 23,000 hospitalizations and 450 deaths' each year, 

according to a recent report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 
A study of more than 300 raw chicken breasts released by Consumer Reports 
earlier this year found that 10.8 percent harbored salmonella, while 65.2 
percent tested positive for E. coli. Overall, about 97 percent of the breasts 
tested contained harmful bacteria, according to the study.

Of course, chicken processors are hardly the only offenders. Almost every kind 
of animal slaughtered in the United States is pumped full of drugs and raised in 

unsustainably large factory farms.
----------------------------------------------------

So next time you feel like bitching about horse slaughter, have equal compassion 

for the lesser animals that suffer too and whose maltreatment has a much broader 

impact on all Americans, not just horse-lovers. The USDA desperately needs more 
funding and inspectors and new rules to cope with the modern travesty we call 
agribusiness. It does not need its impact to be reduced to rubber stamp status.

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[Lynn White]

Looks like we've gone back to "The Jungle."  

[Nathan Hoyt]

I really get ticked by this inflammatory drivel that twists the truth to make it sound cruel and evil.  "The Jungle" is not an accurate parallel to modern practices.

Point 1: beak trimming.  Chickens are not nice.  If their buddy looks a little "off" they will peck at him.  If one chicken pecks at him, all the chickens peck at him and you have a chicken with a big bloody hole in him.  This is a bad thing.  Poultry that will be around a while (breeders and layers) might have their beaks trimmed.  Broilers are slaughtered by 6 weeks, so they often are not trimmed.

Point 2: Broilers are raised in chicken houses, not cages!  Remember that an "overcrowded" animal will not gain weight as well or produce as many eggs, so it is in the best interest of the farmer to make sure the chickens don't feel overcrowded.  Just because we wouldn't want to live like that doesn't mean the chickens mind.

Point 3: "Industrial Grade Chemicals": WTH?!?!  Give me names or shut up.  If big names scare you, you have no business attempting to educate anybody about "industrial grade chemicals".  This is just inflammatory BS meant to strike blind fear in the reader.  Bleach at the level you use to whiten your socks is "industrial grade", so this statement means nothing.  Chlorine, ammonia, carbon dioxide, phosphoric acid and others are used as bacterial growth inhibitors, disinfectants and sanitizing agents throughout the process.  Which are you scared off?  Most are very reactive (carbon dioxide and nitrogen are simply used to displace oxygen), so they don't persist very long after use.

Point 4: "...covered or standing in feces".  All herd animals are covered or standing in feces most of they lives regardless of setting.  It is part of the lifestyle.  Look at our beloved horses.  Much of that dust that settles on them in the stall is pulverized and aerosolized manure.  If they are out on pasture, the good loafing areas are loaded with manure.  They come in streaked with manure after they roll on it.  Until humans figured out the importance of sanitation and hygiene, we are were no different, hence the huge number of deaths in the bad ol' days (still a huge problem in the third world) from dysentery.  The fact that the chickens are so healthy (remember: they have to be healthy to gain weight) means the sanitation programs at these farms are actually working.

Point 5: Gag laws.  These are very controversial.  Mass death is shocking to behold.  It stunned me for a minute when I first walked into a plant to see a steer get captive bolted every 4-5 seconds.  Anything that disturbing can be easily twisted by anyone with an agenda.  Ag desperately wants a mechanism to counter-attack PETA and the like for their use of secret video.  On one hand, this article illustrates that much of the general public is not capable of processing such footage, but on the other hand, I believe strongly that any thing that is hidden behind a curtain with a sign saying "Don't look" instantly becomes the most interesting thing in the world.  Ag has to find a better way to educate the public regarding food production.  For the record, I've skinned and gutted a few deer and squirrels and plucked and gutted several thousand ducks and a few chickens.  Once I got over the initial shock of the slaughter, I was stunned at how clean the process was compared to what I was capable of on my own.  If you know what you are looking at such observations are possible.

Point 6: Reduced USDA inspection.  The plan is not to reduce USDA inspectors.  The USDA FSIS inspectors currently inspect for both quality defects (ugly, but not unsafe, e.g. bruising) and food safety defects (this crap will get you sick).  When slaughtering young chickens and turkeys, the plan is to let plant employees screen for quality defects since this is in their best interest while the USDA focuses specifically in the areas of of the highest food safety risk.  This sounds reasonable to me.

Point 7: "...years long increase in food borne illness."  WTH?!?!  Forget  "Little House on the Prairie".  The bad ol' days were dirty and harsh.  Food borne illness rates are so much better now than when we killed chickens in our backyards.  Info from the CDC shows that the rates of everything except vibrio have basically plateaued since '96-'98, although there was a slight increase in Campy (chicken associated) from '08-'12.  Vibrio is associated with water and seafood, not chicken.  We did a good job getting rates to drop to current levels and are always trying to get better, so anyone telling you rates are increasing is a liar.  Until we figure out how to make a pathogen free chicken/cow/pig/critter, the biggest barrier to further decrease of food borne disease is consumer compliance.  If you want to minimize your risk of food poisoning, cook your poultry and ground meat to 165 degrees F, avoid cross contamination in the kitchen and keep cold food cold (<40 degrees F) and hot food hot (>140 degrees F).

Point 8: "...pumped full of drugs".  This not the case.  We check carcasses for drug residues.  The FDA is phasing out the use of growth promoting antibiotics in animal feeds.   This is an area of constant refinement and improvement.

Ag is not perfect.  Mistakes are made.  If you want to incite change, it takes rational, fact based discussion. Breathless hyperbole just pisses people off.

Nate

Mostly harmless.

[Shannon Loomis]

You go, Nate. I was actually a USDA inspector at both hog and chicken plants for a short time and really learned a lot. The plants I was at really worked hard to minimize stress for the animals and bent over backwards to maintain cleanliness. And kissed our feet. My badge had the capability to shut that plant down in a second so if I said anything, 10 people would jump to. 

Shannon Loomis

QED Farm - Sport Morgans

Pleasant Creek, WV

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

On 7/30/2014 7:49 AM, 'Nathan Hoyt' via ridecamp at Endurance.Net wrote:

If you want to incite change, it takes rational, fact based discussion. Breathless hyperbole just pisses people off.

Nate

Thanks Nate.  You said it better than I could.

Ed

--
Ed & Wendy Hauser
5729 175th Ave.
Becker, MN 55308

Ed: (406) 381-5527
Wendy: (406) 544-2926

[Lynn White]

My point was the treatment of the PEOPLE that have to do the work.  Working in a slaughter house used to pay pretty well and the conditions for the PEOPLE used to be much better than today.  During most of the 20th century, slaughterhouses used to be locally owned and used to be part of the communities.   We don't see much of that any more. 

--

[Katy Vernon]

Thank you, Nate, for your important points. Another point to address was the comment about contracting out the inspector positions. This can't be done, as certain types of government jobs cannot be contacted out. Inspectors are included, as a way to keep the fox out of the hen house. So another silly rumor/scare tactic can be put to rest.

[Barbara McCrary]

THANK YOU, Nathan!

When I read all this drivel, I wanted to create an answer, but didn’t know how to get started. Now I will start:

I was born and raised with the poultry business. That’s what my father supported our family on. At a very early age I was out feeding, gathering eggs, and cleaning outdoor concrete-floored yards. At the age of 8, I was the family “chicken plucker.” My father would dispatch a non-productive hen, scald the carcass to loosen the feathers, and I would pluck, singe the underlying hairs, and eviscerate, carefully removing the gall bladder from the liver, removing the lining and contents of the gizzard, and otherwise preparing the edible organs for cooking. My mother did the cooking. I grew up eating chicken and I still LOVE chicken.

 

Our daughters raised broilers – in a house – and they had people waiting in line for this home-grown meat. Our family assembled, along with some long-suffering friends, and we killed and dressed about 125 broilers on the given day. I still know how to do this – many decades later.

 

When I read all this “inflammatory drivel” (thanks, Nate), I can’t help but wonder what people think when they are enjoying a nice dinner or an outdoor BBQ. Where do they think our food comes from? How is it prepared for purchase?

 

People who think we should cut water to agriculture so their golf courses and lawns stay green during a drought (California – now) don’t stop to wonder where their next meal comes from. We have more food at our disposal than just about any country in the world, yet some people complain about just about anything related to its production. I suggest such people try doing without the efforts of farmers and livestock producers for a week or so and see how they feel about the agricultural industry.

Milk comes from grocery stores, meat comes from stores, vegetables and fruit come from stores. Walk in to a grocery store and there will ALWAYS be plenty of food to buy, and then you can complain about how much it costs. Sheesh!

 

I know this is not endurance related, but it got started somehow. I will quit now, but I just happen to have a long history in the poultry business and couldn’t resist a comeback.

 

Barbara

--

[Truman Prevatt]

This article came from The Guardian - which is a UK paper.  I love the media in the UK because they show no reverence to anything including corporations and politicians. They are merciless to their politicians - often referring to former PM Tony Blair as "the dog" and 

making all sorts of comments of the lack of the current PM's manhood.  The British treat the rich, powerful and famous in a way that some think they should be treated.  I've spent a lot of time in the UK - so much at one time I could not give blood in the US because of the mad cow disease outbreak of the mid 1990's.  There is also something to take into consideration and that is Europe and the UK are more concerned about their food and more active in pushing for their Governments to regulate their food supply than we seem to be in the US.  For example the import of GMO and product containing a GMO can be banned by "safeguard clause" of the EU charter. Much of the EU is off limits to GE crops.  The UK is not GMO friendly with the Church of England banning any GE crops on its 60,000 and many small farmers being able to get ordinances against GMO foods in many regions.  

However, in some cases they might make mistakes in their zeal.  There was one fact about chickens that was correct - there is a risk from salmonella. This is true for even baby chickens.  http://www.cdc.gov/features/salmonellababybirds/  When my daughter took microbiology in high school she came home and threw away our cutting boards and chewed on us for using a cutting board used for chicken on anything else and for not isolating knives used on raw chicken on other foods without washing them in hot water and preferably using Clorox on them.   Why - they analyzed chicken breast from a local supermarket and found salmonella all but one sample.  However, you can get salmonella from your backyard chickens. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/backyard-chickens-linked-salmonella-outbreaks-cdc-says-n92696

So  am I careful with chicken - absolutely.  I basically treat it as contaminated until it is cooked.  So I eat chicken - yep but not uncooked or poorly cooked.  Are there issues in our current industrial agriculture model I expect needs some refinement.  This is not the 1950's where small farmers produced our food and a lot of people produced much of their own food.  Today chicken farming is big business dominated by a few large companies.  In these operations chickens are raised in much closer quarters where the density of manure is much higher and often piled in large piles - depending on local health ordinances.  Given the predominance of salmonella in chicken manure this does present both a public health concern and a concern for the food and the people working in the industry. I know - at a recommendation of a trusted vet - I will never buy horse hay from someone that uses chicken manure on their pastures which in fact is simply increasing the concentration of salmonella in the soil.

However, I'd take with a grain of salt the article in The Guardian.  This is coming from a country that thinks we Americans are barbarians about our diet (those are the exact words of a good friend who is British) - they would just as soon we take our McDonalds and go home. 

--

“No government ought to be without censors & where the press is free, no one ever will.”

Thomas Jefferson

[Maryben Stover]

Truman, that's why I eat chicken Mcnuggets cause I know they are not really chicken. 



..........mb

 

---

Subject: Re: [RC] Slaughter as an American business

From: tpre...@mindspring.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:11:24 -0400
CC: ride...@endurance.net
To: bigcre...@wildblue.net

[Truman Prevatt]

My wife refers to KFC and "Kentucky Fried Rat."   I wonder what is in Chicken McNuggets ;-0!  And of course alligator - it taste just like chicken.  

--

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friedrich Nietzsche, The Dawn

[Nathan Hoyt]

First and foremost, the main problem with our food is that we have too much of it.  Smoking is the primary way you raise your hand and ask to die early.  Obesity is the next best way to shove your way forward in line.  Everything else is an "also-ran".  

Chickens have Salmonella.  Chicken meat has been contaminated with Salmonella as long as we've eaten chickens.  I have heard "cook to 165 degrees" and "wash your hands after handling chicken" since I was first capable of dorking around in the kitchen with my mom, but this wasn't new advice even then.  This type of article keeps acting like finding Salmonella in a chicken is a cause for surprise and outrage.

The levels of Salmonella are not increasing, but the percentages of certain variants of greater pathogenicity within the total reported cases are increasing.  We are doing something that favors these bugs.  This is a very important question that the industry is trying to answer and it is a question that should be asked.

There are legit concerns with our food production system.  This article doesn't raise them.  It does not help find solutions.  It is fear mongering and creates a culture where the very people working the hardest to address the problems are viewed with distrust.

Nate

Mostly harmless.

[Truman Prevatt]

It's the British press.  Relax. 

--

"No other resource, service or product derived from Forest System Lands touches the lives of more Americans nor has greater opportunity to foster citizen support than does the opportunity to choose from a variety of recreation settings as necessary to enjoy a quality recreation experience." Terry Morris, President BCHA

[Diane Trefethen]

If the current rules, never mind the new proposal, governing the modern, factory
processing of chicken carcasses were even remotely like the procedure described
by Barbara, I doubt anyone would be protesting. The current maximum, ergo de
facto, number per minute is 35. If Barbara’s family squeezed each week’s chicken
killing into one day, I doubt the total would have been as many as 35. Even if
it were, I am certain that the family member responsible spent more than one
minute checking that the birds weren’t contaminated with fecal matter or had
other problems.

In other words, a small, family run operation has about the same relationship to
the assembly lines that grind out chickens these days, pardon the double
entendre, as an automobile buff who restores vintage cars has to GM.

[Diane Trefethen]

I appreciate and agree with Nate’s prefacing comments. They are equally
applicable to the rhetoric used by those opposed to horse slaughter on emotional
grounds or abortion on religious grounds. However, I’m not so sure about some of
his specific points.

“Point 1: beak trimming. Chickens are not nice.” Nice or not, chicks beaks
weren’t trimmed, an euphemism for “cut off,“ for millennia. If a horse isn’t
nice and kicks his pasture mates, do we cut his tendons so he can’t kick? After
all, it’s just long enough to fatten him for the slaughter house.

“Point 2: Broilers are raised in chicken houses, not cages!” I’ve seen two types
of pictures. One type shows several chickens confined in a space about 2’x2’x1’
(layers?). That is a cage, not a chicken house. The other type shows a large
space with wall to wall chickens. I know those are called chicken houses but
that term is wildly misleading since for most people, when you say, “chicken
house,” they think of a backyard chicken house for roosting and a big yard for
being out in the day. “Remember that an ‘overcrowded’ animal will not gain
weight as well or produce as many eggs…” That is a valid concern for a family
but not for agri-business. It’s called “economy of scale.” The unhappy, ie,
lower producers are factored in from the get go. For a family operation, if a
third of your layers quit, you have to increase your cost/egg by 1/3.

“Point 3: ‘Industrial Grade Chemicals’: Bleach at the level you use to whiten
your socks is ‘industrial grade’... Chlorine, ammonia, carbon dioxide,

phosphoric acid and others are used as bacterial growth inhibitors,

disinfectants and sanitizing agents throughout the process.” All true, but I
don’t think most of us realize that our chicken breasts and thighs are dunked in
a bath of chlorine to make it “clean.” We think of all those chemicals as being
applied to tools and surfaces, not the actual food we eat.

“Point 4: ‘...covered or standing in feces’. All herd animals are covered or
standing in feces most of they lives regardless of setting.” No they’re not.
This is hyperbole on your part.

“Point 5: Gag laws. These are very controversial. Mass death is shocking to
behold.” Gee Nate. Surely you know that most of the gag laws are to stop people
from photographing HOW LIVESTOCK IS TREATED WHILE THEY ARE STILL ALIVE, not to
show people how livestock are killed.

“Point 6: Reduced USDA inspection. The plan is not to reduce USDA inspectors.”
When you start with a FSIS inspector and his helper and eliminate the helper,
I’d say that’s cutting the FSIS presence in half, or to quote 77 FR 4408, “Key
elements of the new inspection system include: … “(2) reducing the number of
online FSIS carcass inspectors to one per line.”
__________________________________________

FYI
There are three, pertinent documents which can be found on the “FEDERAL
REGISTER, The Daily Journal of the United States Government.”
1) "Modernization of Poultry Slaughter Inspection"
aka 77 FR 4408
A Proposed Rule
Found at:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/01/27/2012-1516/modernization-of-poultry-slaughter-inspection

2) "Modernization of Poultry Slaughter Inspection"
Proposed Rule; Extension Of Comment Period (includes a summary of comments &
responses) as of May 29, 2012
Found at:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/04/26/2012-10111/modernization-of-poultry-slaughter-inspection

3) "Modernization of Poultry Slaughter Inspection"
A Proposed Rule by the Food Safety and Inspection Service on 01/27/2012
Action: Proposed Rule; Extension Of Comment Period.
Found at:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/04/26/2012-10111/modernization-of-poultry-slaughter-inspection

[Barbara McCrary]

I understand from people who have actually tried it that rattlesnake tastes like chicken, too.

 

Barbara

[Robert Morris]

What does chicken taste like???

 

Bob

 

---

[mari...@aol.com]

Like rattlesnake. Julie

[Rae Callaway]

Just one point:

“Point 1: beak trimming. Chickens are not nice.” I have 50 chickens. Not a trimmed beak amongst them. You know why? They have enough room to get away from any bullies. Chickens will peck each other when they are overcrowded. The big chicken houses do not give enough room per chicken to alleviate this as they are crammed in wing to wing with just a little room to move. The rule of thumb for space, if you want to keep your chickens confined - 4 sq feet per hen in a coop and 10 sq feet per chicken in a run. Anything smaller, and you will have issues with pecking. Why do you think those chicken house chickens are missing half their feathers?

Rae

[Barbara McCrary]

Absolutely delicious! And it can be prepared so many different ways. I’ll take it over rattlesnake any day.

 

Barbara

[Barbara McCrary]

Another reason chickens will peck each other is: when a pullet (young hen) is laying her first eggs, they are often soft-shelled. The aggressor sees the egg and wants to eat it. She will peck at the egg while it is being laid, then draws blood from the pullet, then goes into a cannibalistic frenzy. I used to catch the bloodied young pullets, put pine tar on their bottoms, then put them into a caged area where the others could not peck her repeatedly. When they were healed, they could be returned to the flock. Chickens are not nice, as has been said already. Our chickens had a large house and were free to move about, but some were helpless in the act of laying an egg. Chickens 101 - all you ever wanted to know about chickens but never thought to ask. :-)

Barbara

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[deser...@aol.com]

Diane, Nate and all,

I have been inside an egg factory.  For many years I worked for the local health district in Environmental Health.  I had to inspect a well at the Egg Ranch that supplies most of the eggs for retail in our area, total (human) population probably in the 250,000-500,000 range in the area they supply.  They are not small potatoes.  Their chickens are kept about 4-6 to a cage, the cage being the ones that Diane saw pictures of.  My memory brings up dimensions of about 30"L x 24"W x 16" H.  Basically around 1 sq.ft per hen.  All they do is eat and drink and lay eggs, and occasionally pick on the cage mates.  I don't remember seeing clipped beaks, but I think I remember the employees telling me that they just get rid of hens that savage their roommates. 

I raise my own bantam chickens, mostly to keep the bugs down, but this year I started collecting eggs as the population was getting too big.  They have free range of the place, and among other things, I have less of a fly problem with 5 horses than others in my area.  I can't imagine keeping chickens in a cage that size for their entire lives, which may only last a couple of years, because as soon as the egg production slows down, they get replaced with a younger hen. 

I've never been inside a large-scale layer production plant, but I've been in a couple of smaller ones, with wall-to-wall chickens.  In either case, not a "life" I'd wish on any animal.  I don't eat a lot of chicken.  Not vegetarian, I just prefer seafood, especially Tilapia, which is all farm-raised, thus sustainable. 

jeri

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From: Diane Trefethen <tr...@wakerobinranch.com>
To: ridecamp <ride...@endurance.net>

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[endurancehorsemt]

I clean my wooden cutting boards with diluted bleach any time I use them for chicken! (I know, I probably shouldn't use wooden cutting boards for chicken but haven't killed anyone yet). After 20 years on well water, I can't stand the taste of chlorinated water though even though I grew up on it. 

When I was a kid I worked in a grocery store (large - I think national - chain) for a few months. The butcher would have us take chicken that was getting old, out of the packages, rinse it off to get the smell off, and repackage it with a new date!  But we were instructed to only do this with the generic chicken. If it was a Perdue chicken (THE brand where I lived in the east) we would toss it when it got old, they said they'd be in big trouble with Perdue if they were caught repackaging their chicken. I don't remember if there were other name brands then, I'm sure the same rules would have applied. 

I have always regretted not saying anything back then. I was a wuss back then, not ornery like I am now :) I could have caused a real firestorm. I still gravitate to the name-brand chicken... I'm probably a contributor to chicken cruelty : ( 

I haven't poisoned anyone at home but I have had food poisoning twice from chicken at restaurants. Both times while traveling for work - that was a lot of fun. 

How this is related to endurance riding: maybe not a good idea to eat chicken at endurance rides ???

Karen in MT

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AERC # M39603 
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[Nathan Hoyt]

Probably "mechanically separated chicken".

Nate

Mostly harmless.

[endurancehorsemt]

My horse loves Ultium too. It's got the highest percentage of fat of feed available at my feed store: 12%. Here is the nutrient list. It does have some molasses in it. I think my horse gets a little "high" on it but not sure as she is very moody and changes from day today - others have told me it shouldn't have enough sugar to have an effect, and I don't feed much of it, a pound a day at most. And not every day, unless I'm at a ride or leading up to a ride. 

http://horse.purinamills.com/stellent/groups/public/@purinasites/documents/web_content/ecmd2-0033875.pdf

As a cheaper sugar-free option for my hard keeper, I also give her soaked beet pulp with oil added. Because it's easily available in large jugs at Costco, I use canola oil which is better than corn oil but there are better oils to add - people will chime in (however I think they are pricier). This along with good quality hay and alfalfa, are the only way I keep weight my TBs in the winter (though it's mostly the alfalfa that does it).  

You can't get much cheaper than beet pulp. If you are worried about sugar be sure to get the plain option, not with molasses added. Sometimes horses don't like it at first, so you may have to add other stuff to it (carrots or whatever feed they like - I use oats but you may not want to go that route). After a while my horses will eat it without added stuff. My one horse is a choker so I soak it for several hours, especially the pellets as they are very hard. The shreds don't need as much soaking but they are more $$ at my feed store and she doesn't like them as much for some reason. 

If I am ever starving to death I will be hitting the beet pulp bag. The pellets are super concentrated and a couple handfuls soaked will fill an ice cream bucket :) A 50 lb bag lasts pretty much forever, and with how much water it sucks up, it's a good way to get more water into your horse at a ride too. 

Karen in MT

On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Debbie Parsons <sabalp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I stick with low NSC feeds. In my area I can get Triple Crown feeds and use the Senior. My very easy keepers are doing well on a ration balancer (Seminole Feed's Equalizer) and some molasses free beet pulp. If they need more calories I add rice bran or Buckeye's Ultimate Finish which I think has a bit lower NSC. 

When I switched my main horse to a low NSC diet he seemed to stay stronger throughout a ride. He had elevated muscle enzymes higher than expected after finishing Tevis in 2010 and the UC Davis vet involved in the blood study program suggested my horse may have some issues with sugar (even though he looked and felt great at the end). It was an easy change to make and did seem to make a difference. Now all my horses get fed the same way. Need to do some 50s on them to see how they do. 

Debbie

On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Julie Hart <jhart...@gmail.com> wrote:

My 14.1 hand Arabian, 7 years old, just started his endurance career this year.  I am concerned about the high levels of NSC (carbs) in feed these days..but understand he needs more than the average horse due to his work level.  Anyone else out there have the same concerns?  What are you feeding?

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[Sarah Chambers]

Please note that the ingredient list for Ultium has Iron Oxide and Ferrous Sulphate  but does not list the Iron on the Guaranteed Analysis. 

 

For anyone like me that lives in a high iron content area, this would make Ultium a non-starter for me and my endurance horses. 

 

Sarah

[KSherman]

I'm curious if the ingredients are listed in order of their quantity as lables are for foods intended for humans.

Kathy

[Robin Everett]

My very easy keeper is also 7 and in his LD year.  I feed him mostly hay with some beet pulp and a little LMF Gentle Balance, which has no grain, mostly to have something to add his Platinum Performance and other supplements to.  I'll keep that up until he tells me he needs more groceries.  We do watch his weight like a hawk!  We try to feed only the carbs he needs.

Robin

On Monday, July 28, 2014 11:28:48 AM UTC-7, Julie Hart wrote: