is there a rule on running?

[Roger Ward]

Hi

Is there any AERC rule that says how much of the ride has to be in the saddle?  Many riders get off and walk or run during a ride.  Is this activity breaking any rule?  

I ask because my horse is coming back from torn cartilage.   He is under the supervision of a well respected performance horse vet.  To protect him from any further injury, I will get off and run in any situation that could be stressful on his fetlock.  On a ride with a lot of elevation change, this could be over 25% of the distance.  Am I breaking any rule?

Roger Ward

[Teddy Lancaster]

Heck,  YOU can run all the way. But only the horse to pass the vet checks. ;-)

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There is no better example of duping the American public in the history of the country than Obamacare.
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Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/047619_Obamacare_government_transparency_American_voters.html#ixzz3IpFfDnKY

[Truman Prevatt]

You can run on foot the whole ride and lead the horse if you want.  

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“The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things that lifts human life a little above the level of farce, and gives it some of the grace of tragedy.” Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate, Physics 

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[Kathy Mayeda]

No rules with AERC.  I think CTR has rules of that nature, but I've never done CTR.

Jeremy Reynolds asked to ride my younger unconditioned, and relatively untrained, crazy horse on a 50 because the horse he was going to ride came up lame.  Needless to say, Jeremy ran most of the way and top 10'd with him.  I can't (or should I say won't) run, and this horse can be unmanageable for me sometimes, so I haven't done more than an LD with him, and the first three I did with him he emotionally melted down.  It definitely would have been to my advantage to be able to get off an run with him while he's melting down!

K.

--

[Katrina Mosshammer]

Actually there is a really cool story behind the Western States Endurance Run and how Gordy Ainsleigh lead the way to creating the event by entering the Tevis ride and leading his horse the whole way. http://www.wser.org/how-it-all-began/

 

“In 1974, with the inspiration and encouragement of Drucilla Barner, 1st woman to win the Tevis Cup and Secretary of the WSTF, Tevis veteran Gordy Ainsleigh joined the horses of the Western States Trail Ride to see if he could complete the course on foot. Twenty-three hours and forty-two minutes later Gordy arrived in Auburn, proving that a runner could indeed traverse the rugged 100 miles in one day.”

 

 

Katrina Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)

"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough

"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr

[ra...@sisuwest.us]

On 11/21/2014 9:38 AM, Kathy Mayeda wrote:

I think CTR has rules of that nature, but I've never done CTR.

UMECRA rules CTR requires "no forward progress unless mounted".  Exception:  The RM, on rare occasions, may announce that in certain hazardous spots you can lead your horse.  Some Philadelphia Lawyers will watch and if you dismount to adjust tack complain if you do not get back on the trail at least a foot nearer the start than you dismounted.  It is just part of a different game that appeals to different folk.

Ed

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[Shannon Loomis]

I'm pretty sure that if you wanted to, and are capable of it, you don't even have to put a saddle and bridle on your horse and could jog along side him the entire distance. 

Shannon Loomis

QED Farm - Sport Morgans

Pleasant Creek, WV

--

[Dolores Arste]

ECTRA has the same rule. No forward progress unmounted. When I
traveled my husband used to run the trails with my mount to help keep
him in condition. I think he could still do a 25 even though he is in
his 20's now. So, I just have to convince my husband.

Yea Endurance.

Warmly,
Dolores

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 10:08 AM, 'Shannon Loomis' via ridecamp at

[Dr. Marie Feuer]

I have seen people run 20 of 25 miles.

Follow Life Path Healings on Facebook     Dr. Marie's Blog Spot         Dr. Marie's Website

~*♥♥*~ “I wish I could show you, when you are lonely or in darkness, the astonishing light of your own being.” ~Hafiz ~.•:*¨¨☼                                                                                                                    

[Maryben Stover]

You can run the whole race if you want to.  I crewed for a Ride and Tie horse one year and at the last check the rider was practically running blood on the inside of his thighs and did not think he could go any further.  I asked him if he could run and he said sure, he just could not ride.  I told him to lead the horse the rest of the way.  He did not know that was allowed.  He came in top ten and the horse got BC.  He was soooooo happy.



..........mb

---

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:13:03 -0800
From: ride...@endurance.net

To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: [RC] is there a rule on running?

[deser...@aol.com]

Here in PNERland, Lew Hollander has run a complete LD without ever getting on his horse.  Not sure shy, practicing for Ride nTie?
jeri

[Joe Long]

Why, Mrs. Robinson, you cougar you!

Oh, you mean the horse?  Horses in their 20's can still do 50s.

Dolores Arste

November 21, 2014 at 10:37 AM

ECTRA has the same rule. No forward progress unmounted. When I
traveled my husband used to run the trails with my mount to help keep
him in condition. I think he could still do a 25 even though he is in
his 20's now. So, I just have to convince my husband.

Yea Endurance.

Warmly,
Dolores

--
Joe Long  aka ChipRider
jl...@chiprider.com
 

[Barbara MCrary]

Endurance riders have been running along with horses since the beginning of the sport. Gordy Ainsleigh ran Castle Rock 50,  back in the early 1970s. The horse was not carrying a saddle, and Gordy spent most of the time running. He also was the first person to run Tevis, but he did this without a horse altogether. He just ran the trail along with all the other riders.

In answer to the question, there is no rule I know of that says the rider has to be on the horse at all times. NATRC requires the person to be mounted at all times while making forward motion, but not AERC.

 

Barbara

 

From: ridecampre...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ridecampre...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 'Roger Ward' via ridecamp at Endurance.Net
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 7:13 AM
To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: [RC] is there a rule on running?

 

Hi

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[Barbara MCrary]

I don’t think Gordy had a horse with him when he ran Tevis. I’ve seen the photo of him running up Cougar Rock and there was no horse with him.

 

Barbara

[Katrina Mosshammer]

My mistake. I thought I remembered on the Tevis Documentary him talking about leading a horse. Perhaps he was talking about a different ride.

 

Katrina Mosshammer (AERC # 5763)

"Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only that the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough

"A Tevis completion does not require a super horse with a super rider. It requires a well conditioned horse of almost any breed with a rider who has his/her head screwed on right and a big dream inside it." - Julie Suhr

[Diane Trefethen]

On 11/21/2014 8:08 AM, 'Shannon Loomis' via ridecamp at Endurance.Net wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that if you wanted to, and are capable of it, you don't even
> have to put a saddle and bridle on your horse and could jog along side him the
> entire distance.
>

I concur with the other opinions on this question, but Shannon's comment
suggested a few others to me and that is when I discovered some loopholes in our
Rules.

Aren’t the weight divisions SUPPOSED to level the playing field for riders based
on weight? And how can you say that is what happens if an equine does not
actually CARRY the minimum weight for its rider’s division? Our rules let a
rider declare her/his weight division when s/he pays for her/his annual
membership. Thus a 111 pound rider could sign up as a Heavyweight and then put a
saddle plus weighted saddle bags totaling 100 pounds on her equine. Does that
not make a mockery of having weight divisions if she then runs the course? Isn’t
the equine actually CARRYING only 100 pounds? Yet, under our rules as written,
that would be allowed. [NB: As far as I know, no one has ever taken advantage of
the rules in this fashion.] So note this. The rules do NOT say an equine must
actually CARRY the minimum weight, only that the rider plus tack must MEET THE
MINIMUM REQUIREMENT for that division. But wait. There is more.

1) There is no penalty for doing a ride signed up for one weight division but
actually BEING lighter than the minimum requirement for that division. For
instance, if I am a Lightweight (161 – 185 pounds) and I weigh in at the end of
the ride with tack at 150 pounds, the Rules do not specify a penalty of any
kind. If you think they do, you are making an assumption based on Rules “8.5.2.5
For a rider to stay within a weight division he/she must meet the minimum
requirement but need not stay under the maximum parameter,” and “8.5.4.1 The
AERC will disqualify any members found to have deliberately given AERC
fraudulent information regarding weight, age or any matter affecting national or
regional awards. No points or miles awarded for entire year.” As you can see,
8.5.2.5 says what you must do to STAY in your weight division but does not
specify a PENALTY if you do not. Rule 8.5.4.1 provides a penalty for one who
gives AERC FRAUDULENT information, not for one who clearly states what s/he did.
The word “fraudulent” in the rule applies to “information,” not to the fact of
failing to meet the weight division’s requirements.

2) Not only is there is no requirement that one ride the entire ride, there is
no requirement that one ride at all. The rules ASSUME that people will actually
ride their equines except for brief periods of time, say to run downhill or tail
uphill or lead through a hazardous situation. Thus it is not explicitly stated
that the equine must CARRY the minimum weight of its rider’s division. Yet that
MUST be what is intended, otherwise a 111 pound rider could compete as a
Heavyweight in the fashion suggested above. This leads to these questions: if an
equine never carries the minimum weight for the Heavyweight Division, should we
allow that rider to qualify for ride and year end awards in that division?
Should we allow a rider to claim 211 pounds when competing for BC if the equine
only briefly, or never, carried more than 100 pounds?

Ah... the Devil is in the details :)

[Barbara White]

Diane,

 

Many of us have noticed the hypocrisy of the weight divisions for many years because of this very thing.  That said, I like the idea of a horse and rider being a team, with the goal of the partners getting from point A to point B together in the best way they can.  That's part of the strategy of the sport, deciding when it is better to have four or six feet on the trail, considering the strengths and weaknesses of both partners.  Let's keep it simple. We can never make it totally "fair."  Neither endurance nor life is that way.

 

Barbara

 

 

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[bechack]

You can be on foot for the whole thing if you choose.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "'Roger Ward' via ridecamp at Endurance.Net" <ride...@endurance.net>
Date: 11/21/2014 7:13 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: ride...@endurance.net
Subject: [RC] is there a rule on running?

Hi

Is there any AERC rule that says how much of the ride has to be in the saddle?  Many riders get off and walk or run during a ride.  Is this activity breaking any rule?  

I ask because my horse is coming back from torn cartilage.   He is under the supervision of a well respected performance horse vet.  To protect him from any further injury, I will get off and run in any situation that could be stressful on his fetlock.  On a ride with a lot of elevation change, this could be over 25% of the distance.  Am I breaking any rule?

Roger Ward

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[Maryben Stover]

..........mb

---

From: merr...@live.com
To: tr...@wakerobinranch.com
Subject: RE: [RC] is there a rule on running?
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:12:47 -0800

You can weigh 280 lbs and ride as a FW under our rules.



..........mb

> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:58:34 -0800
> From: tr...@wakerobinranch.com
> To: ride...@endurance.net
> Subject: Re: [RC] is there a rule on running?

[Carla Richardson]

Roger, I think you had posted on Facebook that your horse had back issues, and that's why you were running to give your horse a break to let its back "harden" but now there's another issue? 

If there's a torn cartilage, that's a whole other thing.

As fa Rd as whether you can run the whole ride, in AERC endurance yes you can.

If your horse has torn cartilage, I d say wait til it's healed before competing.

Two different issues.

Carla Richardson

--

[ra...@sisuwest.us]

On 11/21/2014 2:58 PM, Diane Trefethen wrote:

if an equine never carries the minimum weight for the Heavyweight Division, should we allow that rider to qualify for ride and year end awards in that division? Should we allow a rider to claim 211 pounds when competing for BC if the equine only briefly, or never, carried more than 100 pounds?

As an old person who had to quit running 20 yrs ago, I don't feel bad if a person beats me while running most or all of the ride.  For example, in October I rode the Point Chaser, which is the ride in MN with the most elevation change, up and down multiple times from the river to bluff tops, which are a few hundred feet high, in 5 hr. 16 minutes.  Anyone who could run 50 miles in that time leading a horse would deserve the win.

[Roger Ward]

thanks you all for writing and sharing these positive examples..  I got the impression from the greenbeen group that I was cheating or being weird for running with my horses.  One even wrote that I needed to make a choice between riding and running.  I was was going to withdraw from GRS on the 29 because I know I can't get my horse trough 35 without getting some load off him.  After reading all these positive examples, I will take a shot at it and hang back to get him through it.

Roger Ward

[Roger Ward]

No Carla, I did not post that my horse had a back problem.  I said that after the QSER ride in Gilroy last month, that his back was a little sore, but that Dr. Ribley had not checked my vet card at the end of the ride.  I asked what I could do in a couple weeks to harden the back of a horse that has hundreds of miles ponying on hilly terrain, but much less being ridden.  Of the numerous responses, there was but one that really made sense.  It was the really experienced lady who essentially said there was nothing to do in two weeks, so ride slow and get off the horse when I could. Two did suggest some good exercises but would take more than two weeks for effect.  The rest of the responses fell into three categories: 1) shouldn't be running, 2) get a new saddle, and 3) learn to ride better.  All but these three of the posts were knee jerk replies because " " 90% of problems are saddle fit or poor riding '' ".  You your self just did it.  You missed that I wrote that my horse was under veterinary supervision and went on to recommend the utterly obvious that I do not ride until the cartilage was healed.

Some of the replies were truly mind boggling.  One wrote that I should not ride 2-point because it concentrated the pressure under the stirrup bars.  Ignoring the fact that the rider of the horse with the most AERC miles rode 2 point (Equis magazine, Deb Bennit, recent 3 part series on Arab history), she missed the point that I am riding a western saddle which of course does not have stirrup bars.   

I hope for the sake of the other greenbeens that venture into that group that the members of it take time to think about the question before posting back trite platitudes under the guise of profound advice.  And just in case your are thinking of it, yes, I am an ungrateful upstart.

Roger Ward

[Kelley Brough]

Roger your comment makes a very important point. We all talk member retention and getting new comers to endurance. However I think the self serving pompous remarks that are often made on ride camp are a real turn off. I wish people would think before they write because this space is viewed also by people new to the sport or thinking about joining. In person at physical ride camp the atmosphere is just the opposite. I find our group to be much friendlier in person. Kelley (driftwood, tx)

Sent from my iPhone

[Lif Strand]

It would be nice to think that being involved with endurance would
turn out all-round superior beings but it just ain't so. While IMO
endurance riders do everything better, that includes being stupid better.

One big point about endurance is that you and your horse are fully
responsible for your own best interests. So ungrateful upstarts and
seasoned riders all must sieve through the dross to find the Truth
that will work for them.

At 07:47 AM 11/23/2014, 'Roger Ward' via ridecamp at Endurance.Net wrote:
>I hope for the sake of the other greenbeens that venture into that
>group that the members of it take time to think about the question
>before posting back trite platitudes under the guise of profound
>advice. And just in case your are thinking of it, yes, I am an
>ungrateful upstart.

_____________________________________

Lif C. Strand
Technical Writing
Non-technical Writing, too
The Thrivalist book series

[Truman Prevatt]

Lif, age gives us wisdom - we just need to use it. Too often advice is given or taken in the form of proselytizing. This is only magnified by the Internet. Too often the best meaning advice is received as proselytizing when the recipient of the advice knows better. Such advice works and goes over much better in the give and take of around a campfire post ride.

This latest fist fight seemed to have started over the back of a horse. A very wise oldtimers - who never rode an endurance mile in his life but spend hours a day in the saddle of the same horse for many years - once told me it takes a 1000 miles for a horse to develop a solid strong back to carry a rider. His 1000 miles was figurative but his message wasn't. The back is the last to get hard. A back problem shows up as all sorts of other problems, hocks being a prime one.

At the end of the day - you are absolutely correct - endurance riders, new and veteran, do everything better including getting bigger cases of the stupid from time to time.


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"Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by fighting back." - Paul Erdos

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[Carla Richardson]

Roger, your Facebook post was asking how to help a horse with back problems and you had a LOT of very nice, sensitive replies from experienced folks who were trying to help.  Please excuse us for asking questions or offering possible causes and solutions.

I won't make the mistake again.

Carla Richardson

[Teena Padilla]

I tried to copy the post on Facebook but cant on my phone. Will do it later after work.

[Maryben Stover]

To Roger Ward

What you need to be careful about is  that there are people on Ridecamp and the AERC list that may not have ever been to an endurance ride and may not even have horses.

In addition, even some of the riders with over 2 or 3 thousand miles are not the best ones to ask either.  They may talk a good game about conditioning and long slow riding, etc. but in practice ride very differently.  The best way to learn is to find someone in your area to ride with (conditioning or trail riding, not an endurance ride) and see if you are compatible and if your horses go about the same pace and speed.  Join a riding club in your area. 

You can go to a ride and volunteer or just hang out and keep your ears and eyes open.    You will see the riders who take care of their horses and you will see the yahoos who over ride their horses.  Walk around the camp too and observe who is taking care of their horse and who isn't. 

...............mb

[Lif Strand]

Don't know. Age has for sure given me aches and pains, but wisdom
seems elusive. But opinion? I've got lots and lots and LOTS of
that, and it didn't take age to give it to me!

To continue with the message of your wise old-timer. Anything will
work in the short run, but true strength (physical or mental) is
developed over time. The trite is often the truth: nothing is
stronger than the weakest link in the chain. Thus when it comes to
endurance riding (which is only meaningful when the term means LONG
distances over LONG time) anything - be it a body part or a piece of
equipment, an attitude or a whole system (horse+human+equipment) - is
proven out when it's still functioning as desired after lots and lots
of miles. By AERC definition, the "functioning as desired" part means
able to go on, not simply used up.

In less lofty language: I found out first hand in my old age (or at
least older than I used to be) is that time and use either builds
stuff up or wears stuff down. If something is worn down, you don't
always get to build it back.

You only find that out by keeping on keeping on.

At 02:14 PM 11/23/2014, Truman Prevatt wrote:
>Lif, age gives us wisdom - we just need to use it. Too often advice
>is given or taken in the form of proselytizing. This is only
>magnified by the Internet. Too often the best meaning advice is
>received as proselytizing when the recipient of the advice knows
>better. Such advice works and goes over much better in the give and
>take of around a campfire post ride.
>
>This latest fist fight seemed to have started over the back of a
>horse. A very wise oldtimers - who never rode an endurance mile in
>his life but spend hours a day in the saddle of the same horse for
>many years - once told me it takes a 1000 miles for a horse to
>develop a solid strong back to carry a rider. His 1000 miles was
>figurative but his message wasn't. The back is the last to get
>hard. A back problem shows up as all sorts of other problems, hocks
>being a prime one.
>
>At the end of the day - you are absolutely correct - endurance
>riders, new and veteran, do everything better including getting
>bigger cases of the stupid from time to time.

[Lynn White]

Gordie Howe has some great quotes about aging and doing what you love.  Here is a link if one is interested:  http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/gordie_howe.html 

 

Gordie Howe was probably the best hockey player ever, and he is the only professional hockey player that played in five decades, from the 1940's to the 1980's.   He is kind of my hero, and I've never held a hockey stick and I suck at skating.   But his attitude about keeping on has stuck with me and I hope to be riding well into my eighties.

 

As for running with one's horse, I've been passed, yes, passed by Christoph Schork on foot running with his horse.   When I see people running with their horses I wish (perhaps for a microsection) that I could run again.  Alas, doctor says no runningto so I ride pretty much all the time now.

 

Just keep learing about and doing what you love.  You can only get better.

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