Reprise or composite of MARK, Chapter 5
R E LANGFORD JR
learned about the gospel according to Mark, plus reflections,
corrections, meditations, etc. I hope it proves helpful and interesting
--
joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord,
joegabe1: *MSG* Please hear our prayer as we pray
joegabe1: *MSG* for you inspire our teacher. Also to
joegabe1: *MSG* pray for all the people in the world
joegabe1: *MSG* that is not as lucky as us and go to
joegabe1: *MSG* bed starving and do not have a home to
joegabe1: *MSG* go to. God we have it so good and we do
joegabe1: *MSG* not realize it. Let us have as our key
joegabe1: *MSG* word at all times, gratitude. We ask this
joegabe1: *MSG* in your son Jesus, holy name
joegabe1: *MSG* Amen
1revd: *MSG* Amen.
Preciouskit1: *MSG* amen
joegabe1: *MSG* amen
1revd: *MSG* Joegabe the bible segment for today is MARK 5:1-20
1revd: *MSG* Do you plan to post it?
joegabe1: *MSG* Jesus Restores a Demon-Possessed Man
joegabe1: *MSG* 1 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 When Jesus got
out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in
the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been
chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was
strong enough to subdue him.
joegabe1: *MSG* 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut
himself with stones.
joegabe1: *MSG* 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of
him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, ???What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most
High God? In God???s name don???t torture me!??? 8 For Jesus had said to him, ???Come out of
this man, you impure spirit!???
joegabe1: *MSG* 9 Then Jesus asked him, ???What is your name????
joegabe1: *MSG* ???My name is Legion,??? he replied, ???for we are many.??? 10 And he begged
Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
joegabe1: *MSG* 11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons
begged Jesus, ???Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.??? 13 He gave them
permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in
number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
joegabe1: *MSG* 14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside,
and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man
who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and
they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demonpossessed
man???and told about
joegabe1: *MSG* the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their
region.
joegabe1: *MSG* 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed
begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, ???Go home to your own people and tell
them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.??? 20 So the man
went away and began to tell in the Decapolis[b] how much Jesus had done for him. And all the
people were amazed.
joegabe1: *MSG* yes lol
1revd: *MSG* grand :-o
1revd: *MSG* We still agree that "???" really substitutes for quotation marks?
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* OK
1revd: *MSG* In the chatroom on 11 MCH 2011, I then asked, "Joegabe1, today we begin Chapter
5, yes?" and joegabe1 responded, "yes." So I wrote, "The segment is MARK 5:1-20," and added,
"We may not be able to do so long and involved a cameo in one setting, but I hope to do so."
Joegabe wrote, "ok," and then posted the bible study verses.
1revd: *MSG* Not much has changed!
1revd: *MSG* It's a long tale! Any questions right at the start? Any at all?
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* I might remember something that could help?
joegabe1: *MSG* ok
1revd: *MSG* But no question right off the top?
1revd: *MSG* Let's begin with a comment about geography? Some scholars today are amazed that
Gadara should be about 35 miles SE of the Sea of Galilee. Some use that fact as a support to their
belief that this is not an historic event. Some think the whole tale to be a fabrication of Mark, or
perhaps Peter. This silliness continues in the fact that modern translators confuse the issue of an
unclean spirit, a filthy spirit, with an evil spirit, something about which we remarked earlier.
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* OK
1revd: *MSG* Yes, on the east side of the lake [sea] is a territory inhabited largely by Gentiles at
that time. This is indicated by the presence of a large herd of swine. Pigs were, and are, considered
unclean by Jewish folk who kept Moses law in all its parts. Even today our Mohammadan friends
consider pigs to be unclean, amazing since they find so much error in what Moses wrote. This is a
common ancient opinion (not, however, among Egyptians, at that time).
1revd: *MSG* When the bible text says "region of the Gerasenes," it allows us to presume a
territory larger than the mere town of Gerasa quite far from the seashore. In fact, there is a tiny
village by the sea-side, now known as Khersa, it is in that region.
1revd: *MSG* At this point elftrunk and peggy_mom entered the bible study chatroom. They were
welcomed and urged by joegabe1 to be quiet as the bible study was in progress.
1revd: *MSG* Do a lot of people stop in @ 'The Royal Family' usually?
joegabe1: *MSG* not yet
1revd: *MSG* :-) maybe that will change?
1revd: *MSG* About a mile south of this tiny village, Khersa, there is a fairly steep slope. The
slope is about 40 meters from the seashore. Furthermore, about two miles or so from the tiny village
are cavern tombs that seem (today) to have been used as dwelling places in the distant past. So,
IMO, there is no reason for modern scholarly types to be so picky about Mark's tale. Remember!
The idea of oral history is far less concerned with precision than is a written history provided by a
21st century journalist.
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* So, as Jesus gets out of the boat, (the storm stilling episode is still in our memories),
this man with an unclean (filthy) spirit comes from the tombs to meet him, Mark tells us. MARK
5:3 He lived in the tombs. Nobody could bind him any more, not even with chains, |The Bible| The
man lives in the graveyard, literally "in the tombs." It wasn't unusual for the same cave to be a place
of burial, and it could easily be a shelter or housing for the living. The very poor often lived in such
caves, and in the catacombs, the fact that people lived there is attested as far away as Rome. Poor
people today live in the subways, and even in graveyards or cemetery grounds in towns in America,
providing themselves shelter in cardboard boxes. Poor people have not changed much in 21
centuries! Any questions or concerns? Any at all?
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* OK I wondered if someone would wonder about poor people being still the same
today.
1revd: *MSG* The "up standing" folk of the region had tried to subdue him. They chained him, but
he escaped. MARK 5:4 because he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had
been torn apart by him, and the fetters broken in pieces. Nobody had the strength to tame him. |The
Bible| He was a real night-time nuisance. MARK 5:5 Always, night and day, in the tombs and in the
mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones. |The Bible|
joegabe1: *MSG* there was always poor people
1revd: *MSG* Even today! We had one couple try to take up residence near our church's walkway
between the sexton's house and our basement. I brought them inside where it was far warmer.
1revd: *MSG* No wonder people tried to control him! Mark's tale would have been very familiar to
his audience. The villagers may have been annoyed, but even more than that, they would have tried
to chain him to subdue him, and thus enhance their sense of being safe from whatever stunt he
might do next.
1revd: *MSG* Nevertheless, this harsh treatment would have added to his humiliation and isolation
from his community as someone "unclean." MARK 5:5 Always, night and day, in the tombs and in
the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones. |The Bible| IMO, this is a typical
bit of hyperbole by Mark.
1revd: *MSG* Some scholarly types do not credit the story because the setting and conversation
seem to them contrived. This comment however, if you can see it the way I do, only emphasizes or
stresses the sad condition of this poor man. #1. He lives with and among dead people. #2. He's
mildly out of his wits. #3. He's been humiliated, and isolated. #4. He's been possessed by an unclean
spirit. #5. A guess on my part: he's not spic-and-span clean and tidy about his person.
1revd: *MSG* So, this poor, troubled, untidy fellow, possessed by a filthy spirit sees Jesus. He runs
up and falls to his knees before Jesus. At the top of his voice he shouts: "What do you want with
me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?" Then, in an equally loud voice, he continues shouting,
"Swear to God that you won't torture me!"
1revd: *MSG* The question, "What do you want with me?" is simply a way of asking "What do we
have in common?" It's akin to saying, using the Tanakh as our guide, "Mind your own business!" So
we who are hearing Mark's good news tale realize that it's the filthy spirit who is speaking, using the
vocal cords of the possessed man. Then comes a very ironic sentence.
1revd: *MSG* It sets the stage for what follows.
1revd: *MSG* Perhaps it's because Mark uses irony to make his point that modern scholarly types
do not credit this cameo as being an actual event? "Swear to God that you = Jesus, the Son of the
Most High God = won't torture me!" Notice! Joegabe1, who was paying strict attention to the bible
text, wrote: "yes, i do"
1revd: *MSG* The man (or demon) recognizes, in typical story-telling style of Mark, immediately
who Jesus is. The disciples (who were in the boat with Jesus) have just gotten done asking one
another on the boat "Who is this fellow that the wind and sea obey him?" The demon-possessed
have no such trouble; they know who Jesus is, or at least this poor troubled man does.
1revd: *MSG* This is one of Mark's main points about Jesus' identity.
1revd: *MSG* One might guess that the filthy spirit had realized he was about to be punished for so
mistreating a person made in the image of God, quite a Jewish idea. OTOH, the strongest basis for
an oath that someone who was not Jewish could think up, would be that Jesus would swear, based
on his own integrity, based on his own reality, as the Son of the Most High God. So the demon
possessed man, like perhaps a Gentile, asks Jesus to swear he will not be tortured. Torture is not an
idea that would occur to a Jewish man, possessed or not! Torture is forbidden in the Law of Moses:
thou shalt not murder [COMMAND #5]. So we have a "mixed" set of signals as to whether this
possessed man was Jewish or a Gentile.
1revd: *MSG* I tend to come down on the side of saying the man was a Gentile.
1revd: *MSG* Moving forward = MARK 5:9 He (Jesus) asked him, "What is your name?" He (the
man still down on his knees) said to him, "My name is Legion, for we are many." |The Bible| This
introduces a thoroughly Jewish scene within a scene.
1revd: *MSG* Jesus asks a Jewish question: "What is your name?" Look at the response! Wow!
The man says, or perhaps it is the demon speaking through the man's vocal cords, "My name is
Legion, for we are many."
1revd: *MSG* Who a person is, their NAME, give another person power over that person. Even
today that is true. We all tend to hide our real identities behind masks.
1revd: *MSG* Two points? At that moment, Zigabozagich entered the chatroom and was
welcomed.
1revd: *MSG* Point #1: The unclean spirit's response is "Legion." Almost immediately, cookieart
entered the chatroom and was welcomed. And then urged to be quiet by joegabe1.
1revd: *MSG* If this is a Gentile man, and the Gentile man answers in terms of the Roman
oppressors of the Jewish people, something acutely serious is going on.
1revd: *MSG* Point #2: The idea of "many" would be known by all Mark's audience as 6,000 as
the number of soldiers in one Roman legion. I suggest that the term therefore implies two things
equally. This is good story-telling style.
1revd: *MSG* 6,000 is truly "many" - even today.
1revd: *MSG* It means both that the Gentile man knows the Roman legions are oppressing the
Jewish nation, and are soon to be oppressing Jesus, and also that the numerous demons represent
the numerous powers opposing God, who is in or with Jesus in ridding the world of demon
possession. A modern thinker might quickly and easily conclude that this man was a multiplepersonality
disordered soul. We might be prone to say, whether he's Jewish or a goy that he's a
schizophrenic of severe proportion, with 6000 different personalities warring with one another for
possession of his mind and heart.
1revd: *MSG* IMO, a modern person (thinking only of how this man is purged of his unclean
spirit) would miss the double entendres of the "many" comment.
1revd: *MSG* At that point, last year, I wrote, "THE TALE WILL HAVE TO END HERE FOR
TODAY. I then asked, "Joegabe, will you lead us in prayer?" Immediately, joegabe1 wrote: "Dear
Lord, what a pleasure it is to learn your word, and we are indeed blessed by it. As is said in
2Timothy 3:16, 'All scripture is inspired of God and bennificial for reproving and setting things
straight.' Therefore the bible should be used as a text book for daily living. That is why we study the
bible: to learn what you wish for us that we may be the best for you. Show us your desires for us to
do. We ask this of you in Jesus holy name. Amen." I also wrote "amen," as did others present.
Today, we will continue and attempt to finish the entire pericope.
1revd: *MSG* ======================================
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:1-20
1revd: *MSG* Bible Study for Christian Friendship chatroom @TalkCity - 18MCH2011
1revd: *MSG* On 18MCH2011, I entered the chatroom, and at 1:30 PM offered this prayer:
"LORD God, our Father in heaven, please bless the words I write, and give those who read them
open ears to perceive the Gospel message I strive to include faithfully. Grant each a blessing and
benefit from attending to your Holy Word. We ask it in Christ Jesus' Name, and for his sake.
Amen."
1revd: *MSG* No one else was present at that moment.
1revd: *MSG* * * * * * Last time, we ended the study with a conclusion that suggested moderns
would consider the Geresene demoniac to be simply a case of multiple personality disorder carried
to an extreme degree. We'd mentioned that many modern scholarly types can hardly consider the
cameo, truly one of the longest and most florid of such, to have actually happened in a historical
sense.
1revd: *MSG* I went looking at the public library to make sure I was not mis-remembering some
important facet. Sure enough, even so conservative and eminent a scholar as John P. Meier (whom
I've met and heard speak) says the Jesus' conversation with the "demon" possessed man, i.e. with
the demon calling itself 'legion,' "strains credulity." Not I! [Maybe, like Alice, I can believe three
impossible things before breakfast each day, just to keep in practice for living in the modern
world?]
1revd: *MSG* That may, if you choose to think it, prove me a mildly witless and silly reader of
MARK. I've said already that something serious is going on in this tale. I happen to think, well, we
can get to that . . . but keep the idea of "comic relief" in your bonnet, please.
1revd: *MSG* One of the best ways to relieve tension is to say or write something mildly funny.
Even when we are hurting, or if our concept of the world has just been turned upside down, as it
was for the disciples in the boat when Jesus stilled the squall, is to show your totally human side.
Only humans laugh at their own predicaments!
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:8 For he (Jesus) said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" |
The Bible| Remember, the demon's response to that had been, "Don't torture me." Here begins the
actual conversation. 5:9 Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is Legion," he
replied, "for we are many." 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the
area.
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5: 11-16 = 11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12
The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13 He gave them
permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in
number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. 14 Those tending the pigs ran
off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had
happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of
demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it
told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man, and told about the pigs as well.
Thus far the actual conversation and events detailing the end result of the demon.
1revd: *MSG* We do not get much "chat" from Jesus! This is Mark telling us about what Jesus did.
1revd: *PART* Left room.
1revd: *JOIN* Entered room.
Preciouskit1: *MSG* wb rev
joegabe1: *MSG* wb
1revd: *MSG* somehow I left?
Preciouskit1: *MSG* yes
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* sorry
Preciouskit1: *MSG* out of my head joe lol
1revd: *MSG* i apologize
Preciouskit1: *MSG* for what rev?
joegabe1: *MSG* thats ok
1revd: *MSG* leaving without touching anything on my keyboard
1revd: *MSG* OK
1revd: *MSG* What are the key elements to this dynamic of the tale? #1. We, as the audience
listening with those who first heard Mark tell his tale, know who Jesus is. #2. Like the first
listeners, we have attended the tale with seriousness and sobriety, we've been deadly earnest about
hearing each nuance of the tale. #3. IMO, Mark is a grand story-teller of first rank! He is superb!
#4. Thus far, in his tale (MARK) Jesus has come preaching, teaching, healing, and then,
immediately, or suddenly, before this tale about the demoniac and the demon and pigs, Jesus is
shown to have both exousia and dynamis (both authority and power) over nature -- over wind and
waves.
1revd: *MSG* #5. That is what, IMO, strains credulity of us moderns. It appears to have strained
the earliest audience (Jesus' own disciples in the boat with him). #6. They were asking one another,
as I know I might easily do myself had I been there -- eventhough I know how the tale began:
MARK 1:1 The beginning of the Good News of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. |The Bible| #7. Here
we have a marvelous story-teller's reflection of an event in the life of Jesus -- Messiah and Son of
God. Any questions? Troubles? Doubts? Any at all?
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* OK
1revd: *MSG* It looks like a strange exorcism, yes? A bit more wordy, a bit florid, slightly strange
because Jesus chats up the demon? NAH! I put it to you that the mood of shock established by the
immediately preceeding cameo, in which (Jesus) stills the squall's wind and waves, is relieved by
this event. My opinion! So far as I know, few (if any) who comment on the gospels think Jesus had
a sense of humor, and make a point of noting it.
1revd: *MSG* I think this is Mark showing us how totally and completely human, with a sense of
humor, Jesus is! ! !
1revd: *MSG* I think this is a case in which, with a "hook" buried in it, Mark faithfully reports the
sly humor of Jesus. Remember: my opinion! Only that, an opinion of a retired pastor striving to
remember the serious stuff he learned over four decades ago, and things he learned in continuing ed
classes, plus impressions and reflections formed from meditation on these passages through years of
having to preach on them. Please do not take this as an authoritative view by a competent scholarly
type.
1revd: *MSG* So here's this Gentile man, living in Gentile territory, infected with an unclean or
filthy spirit. His infecting demonic spirit responds to Jesus. Jesus could have simply commanded
that spirit to come out of the man, and sent the filthy spirit off into solitude, off to hell, or merely
killed it (them). Instead, we hear Jesus elicit the demon's name: Legion. We know the Roman legion
occupying the Holy Land at the time had at least 6,000 soldiers. They were oppressing the faithful
people of God in Jewish territory, (remember this is Gentile territory).
1revd: *MSG* So what does Jesus do? He assents to the petition, the prayer request of the filthy
spirits in this Gentile, and sends the 'LEGION' into a herd of unclean swine. HAHAHA! Does
anyone else catch this sly dig at the Romans?
joegabe1: *MSG* kind of
1revd: *MSG* I find it fully human, typical of Jesus!
1revd: *MSG* I put it to you, dear friends, the Savior we love and worship has an amazing sense of
humor! Maybe, just maybe, this fragment of the tale of MARK is an invention by Mark on a poorly
remembered daydream of Peter, or however one wished to construe it so that it never really
happened. I think it happened just that way; immediately following the event wherein Jesus is
shown to have complete control over nature. At the same time, this cameo is also an example of
Mark, the story-teller, realizing his audience is dumb-founded over the dawning realization of who
Jesus truly is. They need, NEED, like the disciples in the boat just after the squall, a bit of relief, so
that they comprehend that this same Jesus is truly human!
1revd: *MSG* What makes it funny? Notice::: #1. Unclean Gentile man, #2. Unclean or filthy
spirit(s), #3. Unclean herd of about 2,000 swine, #4, 'LEGION' (standing in for unclean Roman
occupiers of the Holy Land) goes into the pigs, #5. Unclean Romans in the pigs go drown
themselves, in the Sea of Galilee, about 3 filthy spirits per pig! HAHAHAHA! I find this both
hilarious and sly. Sorry, I cannot help it! This is one clear case, IMO, of Jesus' sense of what's going
to happen to the Roman soldiers when they meet up with the Judge of the living and the dead. It
comes out in such a way, that to me, is incredibly funny. The constellation of items is just too, too
much.
1revd: *MSG* It's exactly what a person might expect of Jesus, IMO. If I'd been a swine herder, I'd
run off and tell the owners of the herd exactly what happened. (Remember, I'm a Gentile.) MARK
5:14-16 = 14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the
people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had
been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were
afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man?
and told about the pigs as well.
1revd: *MSG* So the story gets told, within the tale told by Mark. Now Mark does something in
his tale that is typical of him, IMO. It has to do with getting the message noised around, spread far
and wide, who is Jesus!
1revd: *MSG* Or, Who Jesus Is!
1revd: *MSG* Verse 17: "Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region." This
also makes sense. 2,000 pigs, even today, are worth a good sized fortune. I'd not want this Jewish
wonder worker destroying the economy! I'd ask him to leave as well. MARK 5: 18-19 = As Jesus
was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus
did not let him, but said, "Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done
for you, and how he has had mercy on you."
1revd: *MSG* This is the Jewish Messiah telling a Gentile to become a witness for the LORD God,
alive in and with His Jewish Messiah, IMO.
1revd: *MSG* It's also neat that each of the pigs, stuck with 3 unclean spirits inside their hearts and
heads, all 2,000 pigs choose suicide rather than live with that many filthy spirits!
1revd: *MSG* The man who had been possessed by the filthy spirits seems to have a vague but
forceful recollection of how his neighbors had treated him while demented. Betcha! He wants, IMO
quite naturally, to go with Jesus. Instead, Jesus has him become a story-teller on behalf of the mercy
of the LORD God of the people of Israel. Now, notice something amazing: The man catches on!
1revd: *MSG* He has not received what was his due, as a receptacle of all those unclean spirits, no,
he is not treated by Jesus as he ought to have been treated, instead he is shown mercy. MARK 5:20
He went his way, and began to proclaim in Decapolis how Jesus had done great things for him, and
everyone marveled. |The Bible| "Decapolis" is literally the "Ten Towns" of the region on that side of
the Sea of Galilee. I happen to think Mark, and more likely Jesus, (both) want those who are shown
God's mercy [we are not given what we deserve] to become evangelists = story-tellers of Good
News.
1revd: *MSG* This man did! Do you or I?
1revd: *MSG* AND THE TALE ENDS HERE FOR TODAY! Joegabe, would you lead us in
prayer? Please?
joegabe1: *MSG* i btry
joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord,
joegabe1: *MSG* We need to study and leanr your great
joegabe1: *MSG* teaching. Which we have done. As we go on
joegabe1: *MSG* with our weeek, can you keep us all safe
joegabe1: *MSG* and healthy. It is necessary for us to learn
joegabe1: *MSG* the bible, as we are clearly living in the
joegabe1: *MSG* last days and the government and the people
joegabe1: *MSG* are trying to take you out of the mainstream
joegabe1: *MSG* of life. I pray that never ever happys cause
joegabe1: *MSG* we need you more and more in our last day.
joegabe1: *MSG* We ask all of this in Jesus holy name
joegabe1: *MSG* Amen
joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord
joegabe1: *MSG* Please bless this time we are about to spend
joegabe1: *MSG* studying your word.
joegabe1: *MSG* It is of beinifit to learn your word as we are nearing end times
joegabe1: *MSG* So inspire our teacher at this time
joegabe1: *MSG* We ask this in the name of your son Jesus
joegabe1: *MSG* Amen
1revd: *MSG* Amen
preciouskit1: *MSG* amen
1revd: *MSG* Last time, m'wife complained that I'd not given sufficient response to the criticism
of the tale of healing the man possessed by the demon, the filthy spirit: "Legion." She was
particularly interested in what I thought was an apt diagnosis of the man's condition using modern
terminology. I am sorry if anyone else found my remarks short or abrupt. It was my intent to give
full credence to MARK, and to Mark as he told his tale of Jesus.
1revd: *MSG* To understand that story as we hear it, it seems to me we must divest ourselves of
modern "scientific" approaches to medicine and healing of body and psyche both. We must instead
put on, as best we can, a somewhat greater capacity for amazement and wonder at someone who
abruptly intrudes into our "world view" a way of dealing with religious issues (clean and unclean,
heals on the Sabbath, etc.). Mark reports on Jesus as someone who breaks into our physical reality
and shows us that this world is not quite what we have thought it to be. Jesus heals with a word,
controls natural forces with a word, intrudes his own sense of what is real and makes it overlay and
somewhat obscure "natural laws" we tend to think of as "fixed."
1revd: *MSG* It appears, in Mark's tale, that this human Jesus, who falls asleep in a boat, is also
divine. But not quite in the sense of two boards being nailed together, one human, one divine.
joegabe1: *MSG* !rev
1revd: *MSG* ?
joegabe1: *MSG* we did this last week
joegabe1: *MSG* mark 5:1-20
1revd: *MSG* not quite, if i remember aright, this is a comment on what we did last week, yes?
joegabe1: *MSG* oh ok
1revd: *MSG* did i already post what my wife complained about?
1revd: *MSG* i do not believe so.
joegabe1: *MSG* ok
1revd: *MSG* ah, good
joegabe1: *MSG* sorry
1revd: *MSG* Others find the tale relating to the healing of the demoniac in Gentile territory to be
ahistoric in character, for the most part. Bluntly written, many think it simply never happened. At
best, Fr. J. P. Meier, a highly respected scholar, author, and commentator, thinks a conversation
between Jesus and the filthy spirit something to strain our credulity, if it is not a complete
fabrication or invention by Mark. Meier tends to be a rather conservative expositor or interpreter of
scripture. I tend to like what he writes, but in this case - and a few others - I think he missed Mark's
point. As for the text being a total fairy-tale, an invention made up by Mark as a diversion, no! I am
striving to be clear, so any questions at this point?
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* not at all, joegabe, i hope you do not mind that i am trying to stick to how we did it
about a year ago?
joegabe1: *MSG* ok
1revd: *MSG* is that also OK?
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* ah
joegabe1: *MSG* it is
1revd: *MSG* OK
1revd: *MSG* IMO, this is not a fabrication. Later writers do not seem to twig to what Mark is
doing here, remember that he is the first to try to unfold a tale or biography [not in the modern
sense, oh no] of Jesus. Mark, IMO, has well in hand a knowledge of the sort of fellow Jesus is. In
addition to this "factual" information, and perhaps access to the so-called "Q" gospel [or literary
source material or listing of Jesus' snappy sayings; "Q" from the German "quelle"] there is an overriding
key element: Mark is telling us a story. So far it's been a very deadly earnest and serious tale
of Jesus doing all sorts of wonders. Mark has portrayed the Jesus of his tale as being a wonderworker
unsurpassed. He comes close to saying plainly what would be unthinkable in Jewish thought
world of the time: this human Jesus is God himself at work. Yet, this Jesus in the tale lacks some
very human characteristics. Mark will fill them in, and this cameo begins that task.
preciouskit1: *MSG* rev I agree with joe its up on transcript board
1revd: *MSG* In Mark's tale, Jesus heals people, chases away socially unacceptable conditions or
symptoms, makes filthy people religiously pure, ignores social customs, and even stills a storm at
sea. There is little "humor" to be seen in all this activity, and even less to be perceived if we attend
to Mark's tale of the words, the "ipsissima verba," of Jesus. So, I put it to you that both you and I,
had we been there, would be just as "dense" or thick-witted as the disciples were portrayed by
Mark. Those fishermen and other disciples, though un-lettered, and with no college diplomas,
nevertheless were not nitwits. We are very much like them when it comes to grasping nuanced
spiritual palaver coming direct from the lips of God's Messiah or CEO. Even today, who is quick to
notice when the Holy One, the LORD Most High, is busy among us bringing about his will? Any
problems or questions?
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* Oh, my, precious, even the paragraph I just posted?
preciouskit1: *MSG* no some is different but scripture is the same
1revd: *MSG* Good!
1revd: *MSG* This is a response to the criticism made of what I had written on the MARK 5:1-20
passage.
1revd: *MSG* I hope that is OK?
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
joegabe1: *MSG* it is
1revd: *MSG* ty ty
1revd: *MSG* Mark shows us, tells us of such things happening! Who, then, can this be? It is a
proper question for anyone, me and you included, to ask when confronted with the Jesus of the first
four chapters of MARK. It looks like the LORD, God Almighty, yes? But we all know that the Most
High is accompanied by lightning, towering funnel clouds, thick darkness, fires in bushes that do
not go out and do not consume the bush, and all sorts of other signals.
1revd: *MSG* Here, in MARK, as a tale of Jesus, we have a human-being. Perhaps? Is this all that
Jesus is, in MARK? Suppose we begin to conceive the notion, we begin to perceive that the Jesus
Mark is telling us about is really truly human, but is also ==at the same time== divine? Just
suppose?
1revd: *MSG* How, then, might the first gospel writer make this point? THAT is a very tricky
question to answer, IMO.
1revd: *MSG* Well, we have the letters of Paul that antedate MARK. In them the great Apostle to
the Gentiles makes it clear that his interest is not at all in promoting "who" Jesus is, but rather of
promoting the message of powerful love, the "words" of Jesus, i.e. Jesus' idea of how people - Jews
and Gentiles alike - ought to live together. Paul stresses this time and again: there is no separation in
God's eyes. Others will pick up this same thread from Jesus, and from Paul, and make it even more
specific in details.
1revd: *MSG* Paul, I would argue, is presupposing or presuming that "God is in the Messiah"
doing his divine work. Paul likewise makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is really, truly, historically
a human male, a real Jewish person of the early first century. Neither Paul nor Mark bother with
stories showing astounding features related to the birth of Jesus. They do not need them, they are
inconsequential for the point of the tales Paul and Mark weave. What does matter, however, to Mark
[and also to Paul, IMO] is that Jesus is simultaneously both fully human and fully divine. How is
that for being blunt, and I pray clear and concise? Any questions?
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* The bible text in Paul for this is: "God is in Messiah Jesus, reconciling the world to
himself."
1revd: *MSG* [ASIDE] Remember! The later teaching of the church has not yet developed.
Christianity as a teaching, or as something that people learn, has not yet - in the historical sense -
gotten to the point of saying EXPLICITLY that Jesus is simultaneously fully and completely human
as well as being fully and completely divine. That's will not happen for several centuries! If I
remember aright, it doesn't happen until the General Ecumenical Council of the church held at
Ephesus, 437 AD?
1revd: *MSG* In fact, a careful reading of the history of this teaching will show that the church
was happy simply with the gospel tales and their explication of who Jesus is -- happy, I write, until
people began twisting and warping who Jesus is to fit their own preconceived ideas about him.
Then several different councils tried to spell out what were errors (to be avoided) and what was
congruent with the truth of the gospel tales. [ASIDE ENDS]
1revd: *MSG* So, what shows Jesus is truly human in MARK up to this point? #1. He goes around
in clothes, and he talks the common tongue(s) [Aramaic, Hebrew during synagogue worship, and
probably even koin? Greek]. #2. He shows a concern for other people, notably Jewish people. #3.
He participates in local community worship, and is familiar with the way people of his time do
things, like fish, buy and sell, etc. By far and away, however, his "key" words and deeds show far
more about his divine compassion, authority, and power. How can Mark, in telling his tale, capture
in the same story both the universality of Jesus' concern for all people, Gentiles included, and also
show a humorous side to this otherwise far too serious a cut out figure? There is the problem Mark
faced that IMO our contemporary scholars have not sufficiently explored. Here Mark shows us a
politically "incorrect" and humorous Jesus - a truly and fully human Jewish man of his era.
1revd: *MSG* I argued, or promoted the view last week, that it was the humor of Jesus that Mark
embodied in his gospel in the healing of the demoniac troubled by "Legion." Humor is, IMO, a
recognition of the incongruity between what is and what people wish or want things to be. I could
be wrong. Ha! The whole church could be in error. Maybe Jesus had no sense of humor, and in the
style of the Greek and Roman and Egyptian myths was only a local Jewish God pretending to be
human.
joegabe1: *PART* Left room.
joegabe1: *JOIN* Entered room.
coffeebot: *MSG* #4#Administrator:# joegabe1.# Type !x to view coffeebot's Control Panel.
1revd: *MSG* BTW, that is one of the earliest heresies. "Heresy" simply means divisive opinion.
Something that doesn't draw people to Jesus, and splits the believers from one another is a heresy. It
simply denies what the gospel tales, early and later, tell us about the Savior.
1revd: *MSG* wb joegabe1
joegabe1: *MSG* tyy
1revd: *MSG* So, pretending heresy aside, I put it to you, in MARK 5:1-20, Mark is telling us a
very simple, unsophisticated, uncomplicated story of how Jesus was really human. His audience
would have, I believe, laughed uproariously at hearing "Legion" go into a herd of pigs, who run
straight for the sea in order to drown themselves rather than put up with the filthiness of this
"Gentile oriented and invented army" living within them! Who at that time would not have caught
on to what Jesus was saying [yes, yes, not explicitly and rather humorously] about what was going
to happen to the overbearing Roman oppressors of God's own people -- when even pigs recognize
their uncleanness, i.e. the unwelcome filthiness of the Roman soldiers?
1revd: *MSG* Let us now look at MARK 5:21-43.
joegabe1: *MSG* ok
1revd: *MSG* Would you care to post, joegabe, MARK 5:21-24, the next snippet?
1revd: *MSG* BTW, that was the end of comments already posted.
1revd: *MSG* It is tricky to comment on comments. :)
joegabe1: *MSG* Jesus Raises a Dead Girl and Heals a Sick Woman
joegabe1: *MSG* 21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a
large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders,
named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with
him, ???My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be
healed and live.??? 24 So Jesus
joegabe1: *MSG* went with him.
joegabe1: *MSG* A large crowd followed and pressed around him.
1revd: *MSG* TY
joegabe1: *MSG* yw
1revd: *MSG* These are the introductory verses.
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:21 When Jesus had crossed back over in the boat to the other side, a great
multitude was gathered to him; and he was by the sea. |The Bible| That is, Jesus crossed back to his
home town Jewish area - perhaps Capernaum's district? This begins with a four verse,
"introduction" let me call it, that sets up a pair of cameos \pericopes, both about females.
1revd: *MSG* We remember that "???" refers to quotation marks, yes?
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:22 Behold, one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name, came; and
seeing him, he fell at his feet, |The Bible| We do not know if this layman is the fellow in charge of
the synagogue @ Capernaum. We do know that "rulers" of the synagogues were laymen who had
administrative and worship overtones. They took care of the building itself. They made sure the
traditional format of worship [the skeleton or pattern for Jewish worship] was adhered to. Most
synagogues had only one "ruler;" there are exceptions noted in scripture. Rarely was this "title"
honorary, with no responsibilities attached.
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:23 and begged him much, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of
death. Please come and lay your hands on her, that she may be made healthy, and live." |The Bible|
Rather clear? This is the "set up" in Mark's tale for another healing episode. Any questions?
joegabe1: *MSG* no
1revd: *MSG* I notice that precious seldom responds. Is she A-O.K. do you suppose?
joegabe1: *MSG* yes she is
1revd: *MSG* good
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:24 He went with him, and a great multitude followed him, and they
pressed upon him on all sides. |The Bible| This simply reports the clamoring of the large crowds, a
reminder that Jesus' popularity continues to grow.
joegabe1: *MSG* she waiting for a call
1revd: *MSG* ah ha
1revd: *MSG* I awaited "calls" from the Lord many times. I know how that feels.
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* Now comes the first of two linked tales in MARK. A woman who was bleeding for
12 years, and a sick young girl (not yet a woman) 12 years of age. MARK 5:21-24b-34
1revd: *MSG* Would you post, joegabe, MARK 5:24-34, please?
joegabe1: *MSG* ok
joegabe1: *MSG* Mark 5:24-34
joegabe1: *MSG* New International Version (NIV)
joegabe1: *MSG*
joegabe1: *MSG* 24 So Jesus went with him.
joegabe1: *MSG* A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who
had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of
many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she
heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she
thought, ???If I just touch his
joegabe1: *MSG* clothes, I will be healed.??? 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in
her body that she was freed from her suffering.
joegabe1: *MSG* 30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in
the crowd and asked, ???Who touched my clothes????
joegabe1: *MSG* 31 ???You see the people crowding against you,??? his disciples answered, ???
and yet you can ask, ???Who touched me???? ???
joegabe1: *MSG* 32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman,
knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the
whole truth. 34 He said to her, ???Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed
from your suffering.???
1revd: *MSG* Again, the triple "???" refers to quotation marks, yes?
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* good
1revd: *MSG* This was presented as a Bible Study for Christian Friendship Chatroom @ TalkCity,
1 APRIL 2011. We will continue today so far as possible. At that time I asked joegabe to lead us in
prayer, and very graciously he did, writing: Father God, please bless these words that the teacher
will give us, and bless the study as we study your word. Please (help us) keep in mind that the way
to acheive happiness is all listed ih the bible as stated in 2Timothy 3:16. We ask you (that) all we do
(may be) in Jesus holy name. Amen. Then I and kimlo1, cookieart, and LuanaDiana each wrote
Amen.
1revd: *MSG* Last time we dealt with comments on the first part of Ch. 5 - a "nature" wonder
worked by Jesus, and four verses of the next cameo: MARK 5:21-24. We are striving to unfold
MARK as the earliest, or first, gospel and :) as the shortest. LuanaDiana wrote that she appreciates
brevity. To do this we have to try to consider ourselves living about one generation after the cross
and resurrection of Jesus. +/- 70 A.D.
1revd: *MSG* I'd like to pick up the tale @ MARK 5:24b-34. MARK 5:24 He went with him, and
a great multitude followed him, and they pressed upon him on all sides. |The Bible| We've heard this
tendency of people of that era wanting to touch Jesus earlier. MARK 3:10 For he had healed many,
so that as many as had diseases pressed on him that they might touch him. |The Bible| "Press" is a
very polite way of saying people were trying to push and shove close enough to touch him.
Remember that in CH. 3 Jesus had healed a fellow with a crippled hand (withered = in some
translations). Even today, touching is often connected with healing. We have the common idea of a
"healing touch" as when a mama kisses a scraped knee of a little girl, or when a dad rubs the
shoulder of a little boy who has fallen and thumped his shoulder.
1revd: *MSG* LuanaDiana remarked: "Even dogs know that licking a wound has healing
properties in the saliva." This idea of healing being associated with touching. I added, "Good point
Luana Diana." With that, goodlovin_man entered the room, was greeted by the robot, myself, and
LuanaDiana. With which joegabe wrote, "shh bible study in progress," to get us back on track.
1revd: *MSG* We're striving to think of ways healing goes with touching. At that, kimlo1 left the
room. Goodlovin_man asked, "How is everyone today?" And was hushed again by joegabe1 writing
again: "shh bible study in progress."
1revd: *MSG* One that comes to mind is that it is thought, over in Britain, that the king or queen's
touch has the ability to heal. LuanaDiana added, "A hug, a touch, a kiss, makes you feel better."
1revd: *MSG* Some congregations of my acquaintance, I wrote, have introduced a
"congregational" kiss of peace. Whereby they mean everyone shakes hands, and says to one
another, "Peace be with you," or "Christ's peace to you," etc. So healing, and touching, even today
still go together.
preciouskit1: *PART* Left room.
preciouskit1: *JOIN* Entered room.
joegabe1: *MSG* wb
preciouskit1: *MSG* did I miss anything
1revd: *MSG* wb precious
1revd: *MSG* cannot tell, you left and rejoined right away
1revd: *MSG* In this crowd of people pressing in on Jesus is a sick woman. Mark 5:25 A certain
woman, who had an issue of blood for twelve years, |The Bible| At this, goodlovin_man left the
room. Mark tells us a little about her hemorrage. MARK 5:26 and had suffered many things by
many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better, but rather grew worse, |The
Bible|
1revd: *MSG* Twelve years! Think of it! It may seem a short time to us today, but in the time of
Jesus, when most girls married by about the age 15, to be bleeding for 12 years would be terrible. It
would mean that during all that time the woman was ritually unclean. She would be unwelcome at
worship in the temple in Jerusalem, and would be unwelcome for synagogue worship in whatever
small town in which she lived. She could not go easily in public where someone might touch her.
1revd: *MSG* Here cookieart left the room. We cannot play down, nor can we minimize, what it
meant for this woman to be "unclean" all this time. Joegabe1 wrote, "may i interupt for 1 second
please?"
1revd: *MSG* I wrote, "sure," so joegabe1 wrote: "cookie asked me to apolgize that she had to
leave shes in soo much pain that she has to lay down go on now." I remarked, "oh, that's terrible,"
and immediately asked, "joegabe, would you please write a prayer for cookieart now?"
1revd: *MSG* He responded, "yes i will," and I wrote, "TY." Joegabe1 then wrote: Dear God, hear
our prayer as we pray for or sister in christ that she is able to feel good and relieved from pain. She
is a good person, Lord, and she loves you very much. Take care of her cause we love her very
much. We ask this of you in Jesus holy name. Amen." And everyone in the room also wrote
"Amen."
1revd: *MSG* Then we continued, according to LEVITICUS, a woman was unclean during her
menstrual period for seven days. Anyone who touched her during that time period was also unclean
until the evening of that day. A bed or a chair on which she lay or sat during that time are also
unclean, and anyone touching either the bed, linens, chair, cushion or cover, during that period must
wash his or her clothes and bathe. And, furthermore, such a person remained unclean for the
balance of the day (LEV 15:20-24). Of course, a woman with such a hemorrhage as this woman
had, other than during her menstrual cycle, is also equally ritually unclean (LEV 15:25).
1revd: *MSG* What's worse is that the woman has been bilked of her income. MARK 5:26 and had
suffered many things by many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better, but
rather grew worse, |The Bible| Now this sick lady was in the crowd of people pushing and shoving
around Jesus. This woman who is ritually unclean and ought not to have been out in public.
1revd: *MSG* She was in the mix, nevertheless. She was creeping up on Jesus. One might even
write stalking him. MARK 5:27 having heard the things concerning Jesus, came up behind him in
the crowd, and touched his clothes. |The Bible|
1revd: *MSG* Actually, the text of MARK as we have it, says, she sought to touch the fringe of his
mantle. (We'd probably say the "hem" of his overcoat.) It might mean the fringe of his "prayer
shawl."
1revd: *MSG* ! ! ! This would make it intensely personal. Remember! She doesn't belong out in
public. ! ! !
joegabe1: *MSG* isnt a mantle a scarf
1revd: *MSG* Now comes a unique bit of something clearly part of Mark's story-telling ability.
MARK 5:28 For she said, "If I just touch his clothes, I will be made well." |The Bible| Actually, the
Greek says, "For she thought. . . . " Only an omniscient, story-teller can know what is going on in
the mind of a character in the story. This is another such case. . . , LuanaDiana asked, "so what is
the lesson to be learned here?" and I continued, where, IMO, Mark proves himself a superb gospel
teller. He sticks with what we need to know, and tends not to elaborate!
joegabe1: *MSG* of some sort
1revd: *MSG* Ah, joegabe, it's what we still see today, a Jewish gentleman's prayer shawl. There
were no "afgan style mantles" or "scarves" worn in those days. Perhaps you've seen orthodox
Jewish men wearing their prayer shawls as they go into a synagogue?
joegabe1: *MSG* ok
1revd: *MSG* It's intensely important to realize that this is a story, a gospel or good news tale.
Mark wisely sticks with what he knows he needs to tell us. That is, namely, what we need to know,
no more, no less.
1revd: *MSG* At that point I saw what LuanaDiana had written, and responded, "sorry, what do
you ask?" "What is the point of the story?" was her question. So I asked, "Do you mean we ought
exercise our feeble wits and conclude something?" LuanaDiana wrote, "yes." I wrote, "I cannot; I'm
not so sharp; I must stick with what MARK reports. Many folks do not like to look at what the
gospel tale teller is telling us LuanaDiana." Then I asked, "Do you think that if we had a peice of
His garment today that by touching it, we could be healed? I have no idea. I'm not a competent
judge, only a student of the bible." LuanaDiana then wrote, "Such a piece of Jesus' garment would
be a big seller on eBay, I bet." I had to chuckle and wrote. :)
1revd: *MSG* I'd consider such a bit of fabric sold on eBay a proven fake, m'self. LuanaDiana
commented, "I have heard stories about the shroud of Turin." I remarked that I tend not to believe
that "power" resides in any THING, but only in JESUS. To this LuanaDiana assented: ok.
1revd: *MSG* I note: but then I live in this era, and not in the first century. Mark says rather plainly
and specifically in his tale, MARL 5:28 For she said, "If I just touch his clothes, I will be made
well." |The Bible| LuanaDiana asked again, "What should I have learned from from this story?
Faith?" I pointed to the fact that such was their viewpoint, 21 centurys in the past. Then I asked, "Is
the story over for you?" LuanaDiana wrote, "I am not sure, but please continue." "Have you already
heard vv.28 - 34?" I asked, and she admitted, "No." Joegabe1 wrote: "Can I ask that you let our
teacher finish, then he will explain after, please?" I admitted I just hate drawing conclusions that are
not given to us, spelled out by the gospel tale, before the verdict of Jesus is in. LuanaDiana assured
us she was listening.
1revd: *MSG* MARK ^^^
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:29 Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her
body that she was healed of her affliction. |The Bible| Let me put a question to the chatroom?
LuanaDiana wrote "OK." I wrote, "The question I raise is, 'How did Mark know that?"'
1revd: *MSG* IMO, unless you've heard the tale already, Mark is telling us something ahead of
time that will unfold later. LuanaDiana wrote, "I am not sure, I think I may have missed something
here." "I think you're catching on LuanaDiana," I wrote. MARK is a story told by Mark, and we are
striving to hear it. With that LuanaDiana wrote, "I will have to re-read it and think about that. I put
it to you all that the questions that pop into our hearts, just like the questions that popped into the
hearts (and minds) of the folks who heard the tale the very first time before Mark wrote it down.
I've used "MARK" for the written down tale, and kept "Mark" as the name assigned the evangelist.
LuanaDiana commented, "I wonder why he waited so long to write it."
1revd: *MSG* So, MARK 5:29 Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her
body that she was healed of her affliction. |The Bible| That this happened, we learn as part of Mark's
audience. Likewise, we get to hear, before the fact, that: MARK 5:30 Immediately Jesus, perceiving
in himself that the power had gone out from him, turned around in the crowd, and asked, "Who
touched my clothes?" |The Bible| Is another question for the chatroom to ponder fitting? OK?
joegabe1: *MSG* yes
1revd: *MSG* "Is Jesus something like a divine drycell or battery?" Is he full of power that can
leak out because of a touch? Or is there another option? That inquiry will keep a 21st century
person busy for several hours - betcha! LuanaDiana wrote, "I guess he recharges." So I wrote: :-) I
like your response! You're already thinking; good for you. Joegabe1 wrote, "I think the point is you
were not permittted to touch him or his gaments." "You're close to the point, joegabe," I remarked.
1revd: *MSG* Remember the position of women in that era. Remember that the crowd (you'd need
to check me on the Greek) is mostly men, and at that time an unclean woman didn't belong out in
public. At that time a woman never, never, never touched a male not of her own blood relatives.
Such behavior was a clear social "no no."
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:32 He looked around to see her who had done this thing. |The Bible|
Actually, the Greek says, "he kept looking around" = a continuous action.
1revd: *MSG* The person who was so audacious, bold, and ignoring every social and religious
"taboo" of the time, this sick woman now healed, wasn't going to get away without a WORD from
the Messiah. Betcha Jesus knew who touched him, betcha! MARK 5:31 His disciples said to him,
"You see the multitude pressing against you, and you say, 'Who touched me?'" |The Bible|
1revd: *MSG* That would be like me, witless, insensitive, pushing forward. Jesus stops in his
tracks. MARK 5:32 He looked around to see her who had done this thing. |The Bible| MARK 5:33
But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had been done to her, came and fell down
before him, and told him all the truth. |The Bible| Ah ha!
1revd: *MSG* At this, joegabe1 wrote, "In the amplified version, it says this, 1rev, same as you
said before. Watch." Then joegabe1 posted to the chatroom a list of prices for various kinds of bible
translations, and we all had a good chuckle over what is an easy "copy and paste" error to make. I
make it often, what with my hands that shake when tired. "In the Amplified Bible," joegabe1 wrote,
"I found: 32Still He kept looking around to see her who had done it."
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:33 But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had been done to
her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. |The Bible| The compassion of Jesus
for this woman is incredibly powerful. It evokes a response both of fear and trembling. She knows
what the "power" of Jesus has done for her, or as this version says "to her." We learn the answer to
my first question, and to the conclusion of the story. MARK 5:34 He said to her, "Daughter, your
faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be cured of your disease." |The Bible|
1revd: *MSG* I commented, "This is a rather corrupt translation." Joegabe1 asked, "What disease
is he talking about?" The original Greek says, "Daughter, your trust (faith) has saved you." She was
bleeding all the time, joegabe, for twelve years. We do not know the specific cause. LuanaDiana
commented, "Maybe her disease was lack of faith?"
1revd: *MSG* We are not told. I hate drawing conclusions or speculating about stuff the gospel
doesn't tell us. It does tell us what we need to know in order that we may believe. (trust).
1revd: *MSG* Joegabe1 again quoted the Amplified Version. "It says this, is this right? 34And He
said to her, Daughter, your faith (your [a]trust and confidence in Me, springing from faith in God)
has restored you to health. Go in [b](into) peace and be continually healed and freed from your
[[c]distressing bodily] disease."
1revd: *MSG* I responded, "'Be freed of your suffering,'" may mean "'your un-kosher condition,'"
or it may mean "'your hemorrhage that keeps you in pain.'" It's good, joegabe, to compare!' The
Amplified Bible, in this case, does get the ongoing actions spelled out. That is indeed the point I
had made. English is clumsy sometimes in distinguishing on going action from action that is
repeated."
1revd: *MSG* What's interesting to me is that "healing" is, in this case, the identical same thing as
"salvation." It opens our eyes a bit further to see a wider vision a vista (no joke or pun) of God's
mercy in Jesus.
1revd: *MSG* I responded, "Sure, joegabe, I overshot by 23 mins, sorry." LuanaDiana commented,
"ok, ty for the study." I added, "Please lead us in prayer."
1revd: *MSG* Would you lead us in prayer today, joegabe?
joegabe1: *MSG* ok
joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord
joegabe1: *MSG* Let us pray for al the suffering people
joegabe1: *MSG* and all the people that need to be drawn toward you
joegabe1: *MSG* As we go through til next week study
joegabe1: *MSG* give us stregnth and the knowledge to resist temtations of evil
joegabe1: *MSG* and go for the power of good
joegabe1: *MSG* We ask this in Jesus holy name
joegabe1: *MSG* amen
1revd: *MSG* Amen.
1revd: *MSG* TY joegabe1
preciouskit1: *MSG* amen
joegabe1: *MSG* you are welcome
1revd: *MSG* It was good to see you here, precious! TY for showing an interest.
preciouskit1: *MSG* no problem rev
preciouskit1: *MSG* gotta learn sometime
joegabe1: *MSG* i would like to add a short prayer if i may
preciouskit1: *MSG* ok
1revd: *MSG* please, joegabe1
joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord
joegabe1: *MSG* Please help preciouskit1 resist all temptations of the evil alchohol and let us wish
joegabe1: *MSG* that you remove all that from her head
joegabe1: *MSG* only you lord can do it
joegabe1: *MSG* you did it with me now do it with her
joegabe1: *MSG* BE GONE
joegabe1: *MSG* all thoughts of booze
joegabe1: *MSG* We ask this in the name of your son jesus
joegabe1: *MSG* amen
1revd: *MSG* In Jesus' name, I also add my own "AMEN." to joegabe's prayer.
preciouskit1: *MSG* amen
1revd: *JOIN* Entered room.
1revd: *MSG* Hello!
1revd: *MSG* Sorry to be delayed. Some poor pedestrian was run down on US 40 near Elkton.
1revd: *MSG* We got delayed about 40 mins. as people tried to get around the mess. I counted one
ambulance still on the scene, and 6 police & sheriff's vehicles blocking traffic and talking with two
drivers by their vehicles.
1revd: *MSG* Let us pray!
1revd: *MSG* Lord God, Father in heaven, we your children come to you asking mercy and
gentleness for the j-walker who was hit by a vehicle today. Grant him or her the grace of the Holy
Spirit to come to know our Lord Jesus as the only Savior able to grant and refresh faith. Give all the
people involved in this terrible harm and hurt to learn how to number their days aright in your sight.
Give me and all who read this bible study grace to grasp and hold the promises in the gospel tale
according to Mark. We ask all this in Jesus' holy name. Amen.
1revd: *MSG* The text for today is MARK 5:35-43
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:35-43 Bible Study for 8 APRIL 2011 @ Talk City
1revd: *MSG* We began with a prayer led by joegabe1, who wrote: "Father in heaven, we would
like to give you thanks for everything that you have given us. We are not worthy lord but we can
strive to be as good as we can be. Please bless these words that our teacher is going to say, and
please make them devinely inspired of the holy spirit. Just then, cookieart entered the room and was
welcomed by the robot. Joegabe1 concluded the prayer, writing: "We ask this of you through your
son Jesus. Amen." I added my own, "Amen." Cookieart offered joegabe1 and me "hugs." Joegabe
wrote, "welkies cookieart," and I a ":-)" emoticon. Cookieart smiled back, ":)" and asked, "did i
miss it?" So I responded, "Only part of the opening prayer, cookieart."
1revd: *MSG* Today, we're in MARK 5, picking up after the tale of the bleeding woman. Some
folks looking @ Ch. 5 consider it a conflation of two tales, and (at least in part) say that
THEREFORE it's an invention of Mark, that it never really happened. I do not buy that analysis of
the narrative. Reason #1. It's not true to life. Reason #2. Strings of pearls, as I've promoted this
MARKAN gospel tale is, often become more complicated - rather than less - with age and editing.
1revd: *MSG* As for #1, I myself, not that my own history is like that of Mark or Jesus, have had
interruptions to things I was doing. I believe other folks who have to deal with other humans also
have interruptions in their daily life. As for #2, because of editing, and as a story ages, in my
experience of daily living, the tale is embellished and embroidered and colored by memory. I
believe other folks who strive to remember exactly what was said or done, such as police witnesses
or folks reporting on their own lives, often "improve" their stories by adding, not subtracting
information. All that is a sort of comment or reflection on the way Mark reports what happened in
Jesus' life. This is one of a very few instances where he remarks on a couplet of events. So, having
noted this, let's move on? OK? Unless there is a question? Joegabe1 wrote, "nope"
1revd: *MSG* I trust there is no doubt or concern this time around either.
1revd: *PART* Left room.
1revd: *JOIN* Entered room.
1revd: *MSG* So, i got a message that i'd left the chatroom? I wonder why?
1revd: *MSG* Perhaps it's because the bible text was too large when posted in one piece?
1revd: *MSG* Here it is again, in two pieces!
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:35-43 Can you post the whole passage, joegabe? He then posted the
following. MARK 5:35-43 (New International Version) 35 While Jesus was still speaking, some
people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. "Your daughter is dead," they said.
"Why bother the teacher anymore?" 36 Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, "Don't be
afraid; just believe." 37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother
of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with
people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and
wailing? The child is not dead but asleep."
1revd: *MSG* 40 But they laughed at him. After he put them all out, he took the child's father and
mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by
the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means "Little girl, I say to you, get up!"). 42
Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they
were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told
them to give her something to eat.
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:35 While he was still speaking, people came from the synagogue ruler's
house saying, "Your daughter is dead. Why bother the Teacher any more?" |The Bible| Notice: the
people familiar to Jairus, if that was the ruler of the synagogue in Capernaum, call Jesus "Teacher"
= rabbi. Perhaps they were used to thinking of him and his comments in the worship meetings?
They were clearly excited with the news they brought. It is yet true today. People who bring "bad"
news can hardly bear keep it to themselves. Yes? Yet, people with "good news" to share, often keep
it hushed up, and sometimes never get around to sharing.
1revd: *MSG* I often wonder if anyone else has observed this situation or dynamic.
1revd: *MSG* This IMO sets up the tale for the punch line Mark will deliver all the way at the tail
end of the story. If there is going to be "good news" as he promised, (note well: MARK 1:1 The
beginning of the Good News of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. |The Bible| ), then Mark's gospel tale
will - - OF NECESSITY - - IMO be of a sort that tells us, who hear him, this "good news," and, let
me write it again, *AND* make us responsible to tell the tale, thus getting the news spread around.
OK so far? Cookieart wrote, "ok," and Joegabe1 wrote, "yes."
1revd: *MSG* So, going on, MARK 5:36 But Jesus, when he heard the message spoken,
immediately said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Don't be afraid, only believe." |The Bible| We
might say the same thing ourselves! When someone brings bad news, we must say something to
quiet the anxiety,the stress, yhe trouble, such news lays on a person's heart and mind. Jesus
overhears the really rotten news, and his first concern is for the bereft father, standing there with
him. Jesus urges the man: NOT to fear. Instead, say, "YES" to trust! He compels the man to
remember that he trusted Jesus enough to put the difficulty before him in the first place.
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:22 Behold, one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name, came; and
seeing him, he fell at his feet, |The Bible| MARK 5:23 and begged him much, saying, "My little
daughter is at the point of death. Please come and lay your hands on her, that she may be made
healthy, and live." |The Bible| Sometimes, I put it to you, it is good to remember our own trust in the
LORD Messiah Jesus, when we are facing insurmountable "bad" news or troubling, anxiety
producing events. This is nothing out of the ordinary. Not for us, not for Jesus, and - I betcha - not
even for Jairus, if he were a more "fleshed out" character.
1revd: *MSG* I admit that using those terms I am promoting thought about how Jesus is a "fleshed
out" character in MARK - and perhaps the only such character. Mark does this, IMO, because he
has a very direct, though primitive, sense that Jesus is God incarnate.
1revd: *PART* Left room.
1revd: *JOIN* Entered room.
1revd: *MSG* well
1revd: *MSG* i guess i'm a slow learner
1revd: *MSG* i will try again by breaking the quote into bits
1revd: *MSG* Joegabe1 wrote, "May I ask a question that I don't understand?" I wrote, "Sure, ask
away."
1revd: *MSG* Joegabe1 then quoted some verses. MARK 5:30 At once Jesus realized that power
had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes? 31
"You see the people crowding against you," his disciples answered, "and yet you can ask, 'Who
touched me?'" 32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman,
knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the
whole truth. 34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from
your suffering."
1revd: *MSG* 35 While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the
synagogue leader. "Your daughter is dead," they said. "Why bother the teacher anymore?" 36
Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, "Don't be afraid; just believe." Then Joegabe1 asked,
"What did she die from? It makes no mention of her death." I responded, "We don't know, do we?"
Joegabe1 agreed, "no." Then I re-emphasized a point made often in previous contexts. I wrote, "All
we know is what Mark tells us. We dare not be so bold as to "invent" or to speculate about
howcome she was "on the point of death."
1revd: *MSG* Joegabe1 then expanded his confusion more plainly. "You can't die from her
monthly, which is all it mentions. I am befuzzled." "Ah so," I wrote, "the woman is the one who
was bleeding, or hemorrhaging. The little girl is about 12, and is sick at home, in Jairus' house"
Joegabe1 wrote, "oh." MARK 5:23 and begged him much, saying, "My little daughter is at the point
of death. Please come and lay your hands on her, that she may be made healthy, and live." |The
Bible| ? ok ?
1revd: *MSG* Joegabe did not write a response.
1revd: *MSG* Now comes an interesting feature of this tale. Remember how, when Jesus does
something of a wonder working sort, he tells the person healed not to tell it around, not to make a
big noise about what Jesus did or said? Yes? Joegabe1 and Cookieart both affirmed that they
remembered.
1revd: *MSG* This time Jesus pre-empts the issue. MARK 5:37 He allowed no one to follow him,
except Peter, James, and John the brother of James. |The Bible| So only Pete, Jimmy, and Jack go
with Jesus and Jairus to the synagogue ruler's house in town. The crowd and other disciples are sent
elsewhere, or at least not permitted to follow along. Got the idea?
1revd: *MSG* Any questions? and no one had anything to write.
1revd: *MSG* Jesus undercuts the crowd's interest! This is going to be an important, but private
event. So, still moving on toward the synagogue ruler's home, MARK 5:38 He came to the
synagogue ruler's house, and he saw an uproar, weeping, and great wailing. |The Bible| Another
translation says, "he saw a commotion." This was the common way a village might behave today, if
it were small enough. There would be "an uproar." This would be especially true if a little girl had
died, yes?
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:39 When he had entered in, he said to them, "Why do you make an uproar
and weep? The child is not dead, but is asleep." |The Bible| Here the issue of entering in is perhaps
entering into the confusion and commotion of the crowd standing about the door or courtyard.
1revd: *MSG* Now a word about Jesus' perspective on death. "The child," whom he has not yet
seen, "is not dead, but is asleep." Howzat? Wassup? Cookieart was stumped, writing, "hmmm."
Joegabe1 wrote, "No idea, other than Jesus is a prophet." How do you understand just that much?
Knowing only what you know from the Tanakh, and from MARK so far?
1revd: *MSG* Again no one raised a question.
1revd: *MSG* OK, Yes! Jesus is a prophet, like who? Which prophet? according to MARK? Again,
Joegabe1 wrote, "No idea." In the Tanakh, the old testament, who is like Jesus? We know about
Elijah, and so would the synagogue ruler, yes? Elijah raised a dead child! It was a private, but very
important event. Jesus, I put it to you, is very much like, but greater than, Elijah. So, what's the
response of the crowd to Jesus' comment about the child "sleeping?"
1revd: *MSG* MARK 5:40 They ridiculed him. But he, having put them all out, took the father of
the child, her mother, and those who were with him, and went in where the child was lying. |The
Bible| Who was with him? Pete, Jimmy, & Jack; the three witnesses required by the Law of Moses.
They only, not the dad, not the mom, and not the dead child, can bear witness to what happened, to
what was said and done.
1revd: *MSG* The mom and dad are people who have an interest in their child's life. Their witness
would be suspect, according to the standards of that time, and even today. So Jesus makes sure this
is a totally private event! "After he put them all out" except for the people with a vested interest,
and his own selected legal witnesses; Jesus goes in.
1revd: *MSG* Jesus goes in to where the corpse of the child is lying. Aparently not yet wrapped up
in grave windings. MARK 5:41 Taking the child by the hand, he said to her, "Talitha cumi!" which
means, being interpreted, "Girl, I tell you, get up!" |The Bible|
peggy_mom: *JOIN* Entered room.
peggy_mom: *PART* Left room.
1revd: *MSG* Just because Mark interprets the Aramaic for some potential gentiles in the audience
does not mean he is treating the Aramaic as a "magical blessing."
1revd: *MSG* A double whammy! Notice #1: Jesus takes the little girl by the hand. Notice #2. He
talks to her plainly, in her own language. This is eventhough she is dead, by any test available at the
time. WOW! Consider #1? Heretofore, Jesus does not, I write it again, DOES NOT, touch anyone to
heal them. This time Jesus does something that ought to make him ritually unclean. He touches a
girl that everyone present agrees is dead, he touches a corpse. He's not afraid of being considered by
others to be "unclean" or "filthy." Jesus just goes ahead and takes the girl by the hand.
1revd: *MSG* Now some folks will fuss about whether rigor mortis had set in. Other folks will
fuss about whether she was really, truly, dead. Others simply refuse to credit the tale the way Mark
is telling it! Think of that!
Skye_Lites: *JOIN* Entered room.
coffeebot: *MSG* #4#Administrator:# Skye_Lites.# Type !x to view coffeebot's Control Panel.
1revd: *MSG* They are listening to a tale of a prophet who is a wonder worker, like Elijah, and do
not credit the fact that "God" is at work in Jesus, at least as much as he was at work in Elijah. Some
other folks fuss about using the Aramaic words, as if they were a "magical formula." No such thing!
Aramaic is just a language even a little girl's corpse would understand in The Presence of the God
who created it. The little girl undoubted spoke and understood the common household tongue of her
day to day life. That's what Jesus uses, the common household tongue familiar to himself and most
ordinary folk at that time!
Skye_Lites: *PART* Left room.
1revd: *MSG* Hello Skye
1revd: *MSG* Whoops!
1revd: *MSG* Then, consider what happens as a result of this #2, using a familiar language to give
a command to a dead piece of meat? MARK 5:42 Immediately the girl rose up and walked, for she
was twelve years old. They were amazed with great amazement. |The Bible| If I were the dad of the
little girl, let alone the mom, or the 3 witnesses. I'd be stunned! What has happened in front of them
is the dead are made alive!
1revd: *MSG* This is no different from God saying in GENESIS, "Let's have some light around
here!" GENESIS 1:3 God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. |The Bible| "Talitha koum!"
says Jesus. MARK 5:42 Immediately the girl rose up and walked, for she was twelve years old.
They were amazed with great amazement. |The Bible|
1revd: *MSG* Now, joegabe, there are literary tie-ins to the conflated tale about the bleeding
woman. a) Both the needy characters are females. b) The woman had been bleeding about 12 years.
c) This little girl was at the cusp of adulthood according to the ancient standards, she was a the
beginning of her menses. d) The woman walked up, rather sneakily, behind Jesus in order to touch
his garments. Note: Cookieart then left the room. e) the girl has been touched by Jesus at his choice,
and because of her age, Mark notes that she can walk - she is not yet an infant or toddler. Then we
get the conclusion: MARK 5:43 He strictly ordered them that no one should know this, and
commanded that something should be given to her to eat. |The Bible|
1revd: *MSG* Jesus gives the standard "don't make much of this" admonition. He additionally tells
them to give the girl something to eat. This last seems a tad odd, until we reflect on the common
presumption of that period. It's there because Jesus knows that, by the standards of his age. . . ,
Cookieart then entered the room. spooks or ghosts Cookieart remarked: "Sorry, fell out.". . . , cannot
consume food.
1revd: *MSG* That little bit may be confusing, it mixes my comment with Cookieart's arrival.
1revd: *MSG* It is the end of the pericope!
1revd: *MSG* Joegabe1 then led us in prayer, writing: "Lord, we give you thanks for learning all
about your great deeds, and about your life. We want so much to be like you; you inspire us. We can
only try to be the best people that we can be, it all starts with us. Teach us to love and be patient like
you, oh Lord, we ask this in Jesus' name. Amen." Cookieart and I each added our own "Amen."
1revd: *MSG* * * *
1revd: *MSG* I hope the "robot's time stamp" is being added to all this, and that the two times i
was dumped from the room are also recorded.
1revd: *MSG* * * *
1revd: *MSG* Perhaps Joegabe can make sense of this beginning with my apology for being
delayed / tardy.
1revd: *MSG* ttfn
--
Many thanks, joegabe, for removing the "time stamps." That
makes it far easier to read.
The Rev'd R E LANGFORD JR, FAPC, ELCA pastor
! retired !
My clarity of conscience and my purity of heart are undisputed
. .
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸..·´¯`·...¸><(((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.· ><((º>