MARK 6:3
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R E LANGFORD JR
Feb 11, 2012, 11:33:43 AM2/11/12
to MARK, Bible Study, Joe Gaudet
Greetings!
Herebelow is the summary, minus the robot's "time stamp," of comments
on 10 FEB 2012 for the bible study on MARK 6:3, as edited today.
Herebelow is the summary, minus the robot's "time stamp," of comments
on 10 FEB 2012 for the bible study on MARK 6:3, as edited today.
| joegabe1: | *MSG* Dear Lord, |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* Please bless this lesson that 1revd is about to teach |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* and make sure that all that is present |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* understands the lesson. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* All your work as set out in the bible |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* is necessary for us to know |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* and is of benifit |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* Please also remember chars dad who is ailing and having trouble breathing as they found a lump on his lung |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* hold him close and prtect him oh lord as he is one of your loving children |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* we ask this in the name of your son |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* amen |
| 1revd: | *MSG* amen in Jesus' name, amen |
| 1revd: | *MSG* ty joegabe |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* yw |
| precious: | *MSG* amen |
| 1revd: | *MSG* MARK 6:3 remarks @ TC Royal Family Coffee chatroom / joegabe11 = 10FEB 2012 |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Would you post the verse for our meditation, joegabe? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* Mark 6:3 |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* New International Version (NIV) |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* 3 Isn???t this the carpenter? Isn???t this Mary???s son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren???t his sisters here with us???? And they took offense at him. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* Footnotes:a.Mark 6:3 Greek Joses, a variant of Joseph |
| 1revd: | *MSG* It looks like a triple ??? stands for an apostrophy |
| 1revd: | *MSG* I do not know what the four ???? means |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Ah well. . . . |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* no idea maybe the bot was drinking lol |
| 1revd: | *MSG* :) |
| 1revd: | *MSG* A warning! My comments, though they are not planned nor intended so, may prove offensive or argumentative to some. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Take heed! |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Some early writers about the relationship expressed here between "Jesus, the son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judah, and Simon" viewed it differently. Epiphanius. (A.D. 377 ±), thought these were sons of Joseph by a prior marriage. Jerome, (A.D. 382 ±), thought these persons were cousins. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* This is fairly early on, imo, about 300 years after MARK was first written and transmitted. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* The rule of Ockham's Razor is that the simplest and clearest explanation is most likely the correct one. As suggested by Helvidius, (A.D. 370 ±), it is simple and clear if we explain that these males named "brothers" of Jesus, were in fact other sons of Mary and Joseph. It is a natural conclusion that they were younger half - brothers of Jesus, whom another gospel tale tells us was the first - born. Following that thought, MARK 6:3 mentions that the townsfolk thought Jesus also had sisters, probably also younger than he, for the same reasoning. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* A later writer, Tertullian, holds this same opinion, at least according to Meier, though I cannot find a reference explicit for it. The closest I can come is that though he does not directly state it, Tertullian's argument seems to imply that the Lord's brethren were His brothers in the same sense in which Mary was His mother (adv. Marc. iv. 19, de Carn. Christ. 7). It is therefore highly probable that he held the Helvidian view. Such an admission from one who was so strenuous an advocate of asceticism is worthy of notice. So writes J. B. Lightfoot in 1865, his "dissertation" on The Brethren of the Lord. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* It is important, from the POV I've been promoting, not to drag into our comprehension of Mark's tale -- since it is the first -- any elaboration or explanation derived from later sources, i.e. later gospel stories, or from alternative threads in the gospel tale traditions about Jesus. When one studies the way stories in an oral culture are passed along, it is noticed that, as a rule, the tales become more detailed and elaborate, not less so. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Any questions? Anxieties, worries, doubts? |
| precious: | *MSG* no |
| 1revd: | *MSG* good |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* no |
| 1revd: | *MSG* good |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Moving on - - - |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Think of the 'hotbed' of antique Nazareth of perhaps 1,600 persons, many of whom were perhaps related to and knew Jesus. This means two things are at stake. #1. Whatever reason the early Christians had, and surely Mark is one of them, for remembering that Jesus had intimate blood kin directly related to Mary (his only progenitor noted), we dare not ignore their witness nor change it. #2. If we mix in the comment from LUKE that Jesus is Mary's first - born son, we adulterate the specific POV of Mark with information he does not supply. Evidently, in order to comprehend the gospel tale Mark wants us to learn from him, that Jesus is the first - born son of Mary and Joseph, who is not mentioned in MARK, is not important or at least not essential to his story. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Got that? Joseph is not mentioned in MARK. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Only Mary is mentioned. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Troubles? Questions? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* yes and i seen that he is not mentioned after that |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* why? |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Mark doesn't need to chat about Joesph. He doesn't need that info in order to present the "good news tale" he is telling about Jesus. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* oh ok |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Mark is a superb story teller |
| 1revd: | *MSG* He tells us only what we need to know from his POV |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* cause it almost seems |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* that without being direspectful |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* that he was just a donor to get the kid i dont know |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* cause there no mention after that |
| 1revd: | *MSG* YUP! No mention of Joseph in Mark! |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Mark is very focused on what he wants us to learn. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* He only tells us what he thinks we need to know to understand who Jesus is and what his real ministry is. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Mark leaves out anything that might distract us. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Remember, he's telling an oral story in a culture based on hearing and speaking, not like our 21st century one based on seeing and reading. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* When we try to hear Mark's speaking to us, we're at a real disadvantage, IMO, compared to the first Christians who heard his tale. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Does that help? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* yes |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* but pk brought |
| 1revd: | *MSG* OK, good |
| 1revd: | *MSG* brought? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* up a important question |
| 1revd: | *MSG* OK |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* how is joseph distracting |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Notice how we're fussing about something not even in the tale? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* oh ok |
| 1revd: | *MSG* We're letting our ideas of "what matters" overshadow what Mark is trying to tell us. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* It always works best if, as I've promoted many times, you read the tale aloud, from beginning to end. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Then you have to remember what you've heard, and think only about what Mark tells you. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* :) |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* ok |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Does that help? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* yes |
| 1revd: | *MSG* good |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Moving along - - - |
| 1revd: | *MSG* To make my point crystal clear, that this is a trivial matter from Mark's perspective, let us remember what we've already discovered. MARK 3:33-35 = 33 "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" He [Jesus] asked. 34 Then Jesus looked at the people sitting in a circle around him. He said, "Here is my mother! Here are my brothers! 35 Anyone who does what God wants is my brother or sister or mother." [NIRV] From Mark's POV it matters little that Jesus had siblings "according to the flesh." This matter is a veritable "tempest" in a teacup, IMO. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* That is something we ought to train ourselves to hear and remember. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* We understand, do we not, that Jesus is not "poo-pooing" blood kin relationships? Jesus surely knew that family relationships were the way the worldly wise viewed "persons of import." The true VIPs were members of your own family, your own blood line. No, Jesus is here merely pointing out that "anyone" who does what God wills, even me or you, has a far closer relationship to himself than mere blood kinship. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* That's why I mentioned that Nazareth was a tiny town in the hill country. If Mary lived there, it was probably in the safety of her kinsmen. Nazareth probably had many cousins and so on related to Mary and Jesus. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* To catch some of the shock that would have produced in Mark's audience, indeed in those who heard Jesus himself say it, we have to remember that FAMILY was the one key extended relationship known in the Mediterranean or 'western' world at that time. To be even the lowliest member of the Julian Family, as a Roman, meant you were a member of the imperial family. You were a ruler! |
| 1revd: | *MSG* To be a family member, no matter how humble or impoverished, in the lineage of King David, meant you were directly related to the Messiah of God by blood kinship. Jesus is saying here, as Mark reports it to us, that from the perspective of the messiah himself, actually doing what God wants done in his present kingdom, here and now, is more important than your family, your blood family. This is a shocking perspective! |
| 1revd: | *MSG* I wonder if it's possible for us to catch on to the lightning strike shock that was and still ought to be? |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Any questions? |
| FormerBarcode: | *JOIN* Entered room. |
| coffeebot: | *MSG* FormerBarcode Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* no |
| precious: | *MSG* no |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Ok |
| FormerBarcode: | *PART* Left room. |
| FormerBarcode: | *JOIN* Entered room. |
| coffeebot: | *MSG* FormerBarcode Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come. |
| FormerBarcode: | *PART* Left room. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* It would be like a member of the Windsor Family in UK, saying that to be his close family member is less important that to do the will of the Father in heaven. |
| precious: | *MSG* ty Joe |
| 1revd: | *MSG* How's that? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* carry on rev |
| 1revd: | *MSG* OK |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Now some notes about how this discussion has gone on through history. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Make note that according to Origen (died: † A.D. 253 though later Christians dug the great theologian up and burned his bones as a sign of disrespect), only "some" believed in the "Epiphanian" theory; it was not a universal belief of the Church. Note also that Origen did not know of it as an Apostolic tradition; rather, he only knew it to be based on apocryphal gospels. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Note also that the well-known J. N. D. Kelly writes: "not only the Antidicomarianites attacked by Epiphanius and the Arian Eunomius openly taught that the 'brethren of the Lord' were Mary's sons by Joseph, but Basil of Caesarea, when criticizing the latter, implied that such a view was widely held and, though not accepted by himself, was not incompatible with orthodoxy." [J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines (5th ed.; HarperCollins, 1978), 494-495. Citing Basil, Hom. in sanctam Christi gen. (PG 31, 1468 f.).] So, I conclude that even in the 4th century it was possible for an orthodox person to hold the "Helvidian" view. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Again, note that so great a commentator as Joseph A. Fitzmyer writes: "Jerome thought that adelphos [brother, my insertion] could mean 'cousin,' but this is almost certainly to be ruled out as the NT meaning, since there was a good word for 'cousin,' anepsios, found in Colossians 4:10 (TNIV) 10 My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.) |
| 1revd: | *MSG* I cannot resist adding the remarks of a respected RCC scholar, John P. Meier. He writes, "What then is one to make of Mark 6:3? To understand the text correctly, one must read it in context, i.e., in the dramatic scene of conflict Mark sets. The other descriptions thrown in Jesus' face by the townspeople refer not to any great moral turpitude or scandal, but simply to the pedestrian, all too well known nature of Jesus' background. The point of the Nazarenes' objections to Jesus' implicit claims is: "We've known you all your life. You were the town carpenter. We're well acquainted with your mother, brothers, and sisters, who still live here with us --- yes, who are right here with us in this synagogue today. How dare you claim to be somebody special? You're no better than the rest of us." |
| 1revd: | *MSG* This small-town resentment and envy are the reasons for mentioning Jesus' trade as a carpenter and his relatives; there is no indication that this information conveys moral stain or scandal --- just most likely a "flip" comment occasioned dramatically by Mary's (imagined) presence in the synagogue congregation, along with Jesus' brothers and sisters: "Why, he's only Mary's son!" Since Mary was presumably the only surviving parent, the raucous, ad hoc attack on Jesus in the synagogue would naturally point to her standing right there, rather than to a dead and therefore absent father." A Marginal Jew, Rethinking the Historical Jesus, by J. P. Meier. ABRL - Doubleday, NY, 1991. Pp.226-7. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* That's John P. Meier's "take" on why Joseph is never mentioned in MARK. Does that help? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* yes |
| precious: | *MSG* sure |
| 1revd: | *MSG* good |
| 1revd: | *MSG* OK, here some Greek follows. It may look funny if the computer fouls up the font and accent marks. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Elsewhere, Meier gives us his understanding, in agreement with most modern critical texts of the Greek NT, of the most probable reading of MARK 6:3. This is a verse plagued, to use his term, with variant readings. "[SBL Greek New Testament] o?c o?t?j ?stin ? t?ktwn, ? u??j t?j Mar?aj ka? ?delf?j /Iak?bou ... Etc." P. 310. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha |
| precious: | *MSG* um I don't speak greek lol |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* its all greek to me |
| 1revd: | *MSG* An' I don't speak or read the gibberish the computer printed. :-o :-o :-o |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Sad to write it, my copy and paste didn't survive :-( My apologies! |
| precious: | *MSG* to do greek you gotta set your computer to greek lol |
| precious: |
*MSG* that's the truth rev [HERE IS THE TEXT I TRIED TO SEND: [SBL Greek New Testament] " oÚc oátÕj ™stin Ð tšktwn, Ð uˆÐj tÁj Marˆaj kaˆ ¡delfÒj /Iakëbou ... Etc." ] |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Well, my point was that the troubles began already early on. Even the bible text transmitted to us is full of variations! |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Everybody began thinking early on that they could improve on what Mark was telling us. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Bad mistake; wrong way to go! |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Well, I'd wondered if the computers could "reproduce" or faithfully copy what I'd found. So - - - I also put in some links so you can read further. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Just to make sure the waters are sufficiently muddied, let me mention some differing POVs on this issue. Look, if you will, at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm as well as: http://catholiceternaltruth.blogspot.com/2011/05/refuting-born-again-group-shepherds.html and a not so "argumentative" summary annotating at least three approaches: http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2007/11/the-brothers-and-sisters-of-je |
| 1revd: | *MSG* SEE? |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* yes |
| 1revd: | *MSG* I do realize that what I want to show might not appear. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* it will for us |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* we can click links |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* it will for us |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Evidentally, TC cannot jump back and forth between fonts and languages. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* ty joegabe, you are very kind, and considerate besides |
| 1revd: | *MSG* I have to conclude that the popular opinion of my RCC colleague-pastors, as well as Dr. Martin Luther, holds a special charm, and appeals to my weird sense of the impossible. For me, the fun of it lies in claiming that Mary was "perpetually" a virgin. I take that to mean before giving birth to Jesus, and after giving birth, but most amusingly DURING the birth of our Savior Lord. In like manner again, it is not possible, based of what Mark tells us, to engage in this topsy-turvy fuss of little value to understanding the gospel of Jesus. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* This is what you were asking about the other day, joegabe, I pray in fun. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* yes |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* and it was not in fun |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* i wanted to know |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Ack, I cannot attack the opinions of pious RCC folks, sorry. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* i was taught that mary was forever a virgin |
| precious: | *MSG* me too I was RC |
| 1revd: | *MSG* As you can see, Dr. Luther thought that also. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* i not attacking anyone |
| 1revd: | *MSG* I think it, for the fun of it. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* 1revd i meant no disrespect |
| 1revd: | *MSG* That, BTW, is one of the oddities that as a Lutheran pastor I am bound by the confessional documents to preserve and teach as "common opinion." Dr. Luther's Great Confession regarding the Lord's Supper, preserved in the Book of Concord, Solid Declaration, ART. VII The Holy Supper, paragraph 100, talking about how the Lord Jesus, the divine Word and Second Person of the Holy Trinity may be present, says: |
| 1revd: | *MSG* That's what I meant, when I wrote, "I hoped you said it in fun," joegabe, that you meant no disrespect for RCC opinions. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Here is the quote::: |
| 1revd: | *MSG* That, BTW, is one of the oddities that as a Lutheran pastor I am bound by the confessional documents to preserve and teach as "common opinion." Dr. Luther's Great Confession regarding the Lord's Supper, preserved in the Book of Concord, Solid Declaration, ART. VII The Holy Supper, paragraph 100, talking about how the Lord Jesus, the divine Word and Second Person of the Holy Trinity may be present, says: |
| 1revd: | *MSG* "Secondly, the incomprehensible, spiritual mode, according to which He neither occupies nor vacates space, but penetrates all creatures wherever He pleases [according to His most free will]; as, to make an imperfect comparison, my sight penetrates and is in air, light, or water, and does not occupy or vacate space; as a sound or tone penetrates and is in air or water or board and wall, and also does not occupy or vacate space; likewise, as light and heat penetrate and are in air, water, glass, crystal, and the like, and also do not vacate or occupy space; and much more of the like [many comparisons of this matter could be adduced]. This mode He used when He rose from the closed [and sealed] sepulcher, and passed through the closed door [to His disciples], and in the bread and wine in the Holy Supper, and, as it is believed, when He was born of His mother [the most holy Virgin Mary]." |
| luna324: | *JOIN* Entered room. |
| coffeebot: | *MSG* luna324 Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* hi luna |
| luna324: | *MSG* hi |
| 1revd: | *MSG* I have to admit that in the congregations I've served, mainly in the eastern portion of the USA, few, if any, Lutherans continue to hold this "common opinion" that Mary is semper virgo. For the life of me, I know of no theological point and no Christological doctrine that hinges on this issue. From my POV this matter is not a church dividing matter. |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* study in progress |
| 1revd: | *MSG* My wife liked what is written, but criticized me for not mentioning that in the ancient world "to be born of a virgin" was short-hand for saying "this is one extremely important person." To make the claim that the Blessed Mother of our Lord was "ever virgin" or "perpetually virgin" is akin to an extreme hyperbolic statement. There! I included it. From my perspective, striving to be faithful to the unique view of Mark and his gospel tale, this fuss is a tempest in a teacup, and of far less significance. |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Almost done! |
| bedtime_bear: | *JOIN* Entered room. |
| coffeebot: | *MSG* bedtime_bear Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come. |
| bedtime_bear: | *MSG* hi everyone |
| precious: | *MSG* study in progress |
| 1revd: | *MSG* :) |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* study in progress bedtime_bear |
| 1revd: | *MSG* Joegabe, would you lead us in prayer? |
| bedtime_bear: | *MSG* ok |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* ok |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* Dear Father |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* We give you thanks |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* for all that you do |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* we give you thanks for lovinig us |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* we also would like to ask that you keep everyone safe and make sure they do there home work for next weeks lesson |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* we ask this in jesus name |
| joegabe1: | *MSG* amen |
There it is, minor corrections and redactions, punctuation, italicizations, etc.
I hope it causes no one offense. Remember! This is what I can remember
from having to preach, and in adult classes to teach, on the gospel tale of
Mark during 40+ years of active parochial ministry. I was blest in preparing
this commentary. Many of the citations are "out there" in cyberspace, awaiting
students of the bible. I cannot hardly believe how erudite and competent
Jerome, Lightfoot, and the others must have been ... they had to handle the
foreign languages, and had to be conversant with written opinions to which
their local libraries may not have had direct access. I know the angst of
having books in storage inaccessible, while wanting to check upon this or that
POV.
I hope it causes no one offense. Remember! This is what I can remember
from having to preach, and in adult classes to teach, on the gospel tale of
Mark during 40+ years of active parochial ministry. I was blest in preparing
this commentary. Many of the citations are "out there" in cyberspace, awaiting
students of the bible. I cannot hardly believe how erudite and competent
Jerome, Lightfoot, and the others must have been ... they had to handle the
foreign languages, and had to be conversant with written opinions to which
their local libraries may not have had direct access. I know the angst of
having books in storage inaccessible, while wanting to check upon this or that
POV.
The Rev'd R E LANGFORD JR, FAPC, ELCA pastor
! retired !
[and his wife\boss]
! retired !
[and his wife\boss]
We pray that JOY may be yours throughout this holy Post-Epiphany Season! The King who was born and died for me and you, and now lives eternally, is coming to be our Judge! He promises to vindicate those who've put their trust in God because of Messiah Jesus!
My clarity of conscience and my purity of heart are
undisputed evidence that my memory is failing me.
undisputed evidence that my memory is failing me.
. .
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸..·´¯`·...¸><(((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((º>`·.¸¸.· ><((º>
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