MARK 8:11-13, and MARK 8:14-21

[R E LANGFORD JR]

Greetings All: CHRIST IS RISEN!
Here is the snippet from yesterday; it comes in two pieces. Since each is a
view of how Jesus deals with (in the first instance) Pharisees who want a

sign, and (in the second instance) Herodians who want a sign, I've arbitrarily

jammed them together. Mark seems to have put them together in his focus

on unclean yeast.
--

joegabe1:	*JOIN* Entered room.
coffeebot:	*MSG* joegabe1 Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.
coffeebot:	*MSG* 4Administrator: joegabe1. Type !x to view coffeebot's Control Panel.
joegabe1:	*MSG* We would like you to bless this study and to inspire our teacher while he does this study Please keep all the people who is not well in mind and bless them
1revd:	*MSG* wb
joegabe1:	*MSG* we ask this in the name of your son jesus
joegabe1:	*MSG* amen
1revd:	*MSG* amen, yes, yes, it shall be so, Lord
Sasha:	*JOIN* Entered room.
coffeebot:	*MSG* Sasha Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.
1revd:	*MSG* hello sasha
joegabe1:	*MSG* welcome to the bible study Sasha
Sasha:	*MSG* Are there any real humans present?
joegabe1:	*MSG* welcome to the bible study Sasha
Sasha:	*MSG* Xristos anesti!
Sasha:	*MSG* Hi!
1revd:	*MSG* only as my avatar!
Sasha:	*MSG* ;-)
1revd:	*MSG* Christ is risen indeed, hallelujah!
Sasha:	*MSG* Sprry, not used to bots.
joegabe1:	*MSG* please refrain from speaking during study Sasha
1revd:	*MSG* joegabe, sasha only wrote "Christ is risen" in Greek
joegabe1:	*MSG* Go on rev
1revd:	*MSG* OK
1revd:	*MSG* joegabe would you post the bible verses, the first portion for today?
joegabe1:	*MSG* ok
joegabe1:	*MSG* Mark 8:11-13
joegabe1:	*MSG* New International Version (NIV)
joegabe1:	*MSG*
joegabe1:	*MSG* 11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, ???Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.??? 13 Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side.
1revd:	*MSG* We remember that "???" stands for quotation marks, yes?
joegabe1:	*MSG* yers
1revd:	*MSG* dare i ask that sasha be "ungaged" as I imagine sasha can be polite?
joegabe1:	*MSG* ok
1revd:	*MSG* The first part of the text for today is fairly short. MARK 8:11-13 = "11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, asking him a sign from heaven, tempting him. 12 And sighing deeply in spirit, he saith: Why doth this generation seek a sign? Amen, I say to you, a sign shall not be given to this generation. 13 And leaving them, he went up again into the ship, and passed to the other side of the water." [Douay-Rheims version, presented in memory of Pouncycat]
1revd:	*MSG* Remember, Jesus and his disciples went by boat to the far side of the lake. Right off, we wonder, "Where did these Pharisees come from?" or, as another version we commonly use has it, "11 The Pharisees came and began to ask Jesus questions. They wanted to put him to the test. So they asked him for a miraculous sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply. He said, "Why do you people ask for a sign? What I'm about to tell you is true. No sign will be given to you." 13 Then he left them. He got back into the boat and crossed to the other side of the lake." [NIRV]
1revd:	*MSG* So, out in the middle of nowhere, Jesus is again pestered by some Pharisees.
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:11 = 11 The Pharisees came and began to ask Jesus questions. They wanted to put him to the test. So they asked him for a miraculous sign from heaven. They're back at it again! It seems to me that Jesus carefully made a long circular loop up through Tyre and Sidon, perhaps to have some private time with The Twelve, or for some other reason, but definitely to avoid the kind of quizzing to which the Pharisees wished to subject him. We recall in Mark's gospel tale that not all teachers of the law were Pharisees (N.B. Chapt. 2:16 "When the teachers of the Law {of Moses} who were Pharisees, etc.").
1revd:	*MSG* Questions? Doubts? Problems?
joegabe1:	*MSG* no
1revd:	*MSG* OK
1revd:	*MSG* We remember that the Pharisees taught that God's grace extended only to those who kept his entire law. Some surely were godly, but most (or at least those who tended to come into antagonistic conflict with Jesus) were quite rigid and formalistic about this "keeping" of the law. So it doesn't surprise us that if Dalmanoutha is indeed south of the plain of Gennesaret, near Magdala, (if that guess from last week is correct regarding the locale) that there were in this region precisely the people Jesus had been avoiding
1revd:	*MSG* [ASIDE: In the next cameo, we will hear Jesus warn about Herod's approach to his signs. This is another reason he was avoiding Antipas' territory. ASIDE ENDS]
1revd:	*MSG* The NIRV makes explicit the fact that the Pharisees wanted a sign that was clearly "out of the ordinary," or "miraculous." That is, of course, what all signs were when done by Jesus.
1revd:	*MSG* Signs of his divine authority, really? Yes; the pugnacious Pharisees wanted specifically signs THEY could accept as compelling 'proof' of his divine authority. That is precisely what will not be provided by God's Messiah. This, by reflection into our present era, is what those who wish to claim they are moral, or self-justifying, or independently upright, or religious without reference to the teaching of Jesus, or Moses, or anyone in the scriptures typically seek: "proof."
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:12 "12 He sighed deeply." To put the Greek bluntly, Jesus groaned stenotically, as in an extremely narrowed space. His spirit was squeezed like a balloon and out came a sigh as though through the narrowed opening. Not a pleasant raspberry sort of insulting sound, but a painful, distressed sighing. And (he) "said, "Why do you people ask for a sign? What I'm about to tell you is true. No sign will be given to you.""
1revd:	*MSG* Think of that! From God's chosen "right hand man," the one whom we Christians believe and teach will come to be our Vindicator.
1revd:	*MSG* Note Well: They get no sign because their demand for such a thing proceeds from a total lack of trust. This is no simple, "I have a higher sense of who I am than as a public spectacle doing miracles on demand." That response would satisfy most today. Jesus takes it further and makes it clear that a request for a sign of divine authority, a 'proof' of who he is, shall not be given.
1revd:	*MSG* Dare I add, not to that generation nor to any! The LORD almighty has no inclination to 'prove' himself even to people who do trust him, let alone to folk whose inquiry arises out of unbelief.
1revd:	*MSG* One might say or write in a 'philosophical' vein that a demand for 'proof' of what is arises from unbelief or doubt rather than trust. Worse yet, the request for 'proof' hints at the covert thought that those demanding such a demonstration are themselves the judges. They have turned the whole matter of creator / creature up-side-down.
1revd:	*MSG* My opinion, of course; just IMO.
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:13 "13 Then he left them. He got back into the boat and crossed to the other side of the lake." What fun! That is the final word of the LORD Messiah Jesus on this topic in the good news tale about him and who he is from the lips of Mark! "Stew in your own juices; see how much difference it makes to me," is the message of Jesus' action here when confronted by the Pharisees.
1revd:	*MSG* I put it to you that such is a good approach to any conversation in which humans such as ourselves are asked, by people who lack trust in us to be truthful, to 'prove' anything about Jesus, God the Father, or the Holy Spirit.
1revd:	*MSG* Problems? Questions? Doubts?
1revd:	*MSG* Good!
1revd:	*MSG* It puts me in mind of folk in our times. Some of whom ask not for an accounting of why we Christians put our trust in Jesus, or the Father in heaven, or the Holy Spirit, or God, but rather would demand that we 'prove' to them (they wish to act as judges) the truth of this, that, or some other statement the church makes because of it's faith.
1revd:	*MSG* It's rather like taking any of the three ancient creeds of Christendom (Apostles', Nicene, or Athanasian) and asking that some 'truth table' be established to check up on the facts ennumerated.
Sasha:	*MSG* May I ask a question?
1revd:	*MSG* That might be tolerated in a catechetical class for teenagers, people wanting to learn more. It's not tolerable coming from folks who lack trust in a teacher.
1revd:	*MSG* Sure, Sasha!
1revd:	*MSG* Ask away . . .
Sasha:	*MSG* Which version of the Nicene Creed do you use, the original, or as modified by Toledo III?
1revd:	*MSG* I might not know an answer.
1revd:	*MSG* :)
1revd:	*MSG* Make a guess ;)
Sasha:	*MSG* No.
1revd:	*MSG* I can read the Greek, but in worship, Lutherans use the English version of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed of 387
1revd:	*MSG* or is it 389?
Sasha:	*MSG* 381 actually.
Sasha:	*MSG* So you use the version without the :Filioque?"
1revd:	*MSG* Does that help? We do not typically speak Greek during worship! Good for you; a sharp memory!
Sasha:	*MSG* I wasn't asking about the translation, but about the content.
1revd:	*MSG* That is permitted, at least among the Lutherans I know, particularly if the pastor discovers someone with a tender "Eastern" conscience.
1revd:	*MSG* Of course it is omitted in services with eastern orthodox clergy in attendance.
1revd:	*MSG* does that get at your question?
1revd:	*MSG* ?
Sasha:	*MSG* Yes, that answers my question. You just sweep heresy under teh rug when we're watching.
joegabe1:	*MSG* ok may we continue
Sasha:	*MSG* Goodbye.
Sasha:	*PART* Left room.
1revd:	*MSG* The creeds were and are statements designed and created by believers to distinguish fact from fiction, truth from error, as helps for pastors and lay folk alike under persecution or when faced with spurious nonsense. It's almost as if the creeds were themselves somehow subject to someone else's norms, rather than those of the Christians. . . , a rather laughable situation.
joegabe1:	*MSG* should of let me keep him gagged lol
1revd:	*MSG* oh ho, it was a "he?"
1revd:	*MSG* I thought Sasha was a girl's name, hahahahahahahaha
joegabe1:	*MSG* i checkin lol
1revd:	*MSG* Ah, well, truth be told? Jesus simply will have none of it! Just as the Father in heaven hides himself as a true God does, the deus absconditus, so Jesus, doing as he has seen his Father do, removes himself from the interlocution, from the 'contest,' and goes away! This often proves to be the truly 'godly' response when conflict arises over what or who is real or trustworthy.
joegabe1:	*MSG* Male
joegabe1:	*MSG* lol
coffeebot:	*MSG* ACTION that's funny.. chuckles
1revd:	*MSG* Sasha was right to remove himself therefore!
1revd:	*MSG* I applaud his wisdom.
1revd:	*MSG* Moving on!
1revd:	*MSG* Joegabe would you post the remainder of today's snippet?
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:14-21
1revd:	*MSG* Maybe? Please?
joegabe1:	*MSG* Mark 8:14-21
joegabe1:	*MSG* New International Version (NIV)
joegabe1:	*MSG*
joegabe1:	*MSG* The Yeast of the Pharisees and Herod
joegabe1:	*MSG* 14 The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15 ???Be careful,??? Jesus warned them. ???Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.???
joegabe1:	*MSG* 16 They discussed this with one another and said, ???It is because we have no bread.???
1revd:	*MSG* TY
joegabe1:	*MSG* 17 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: ???Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don???t you remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up????
joegabe1:	*MSG* ???Twelve,??? they replied.
joegabe1:	*MSG*
joegabe1:	*MSG* 20 ???And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up????
joegabe1:	*MSG* They answered, ???Seven.???
joegabe1:	*MSG* 21 He said to them, ???Do you still not understand????
1revd:	*MSG* We continue to read "???" as quotation marks, yes?
joegabe1:	*MSG* yes
1revd:	*MSG* Grand!
1revd:	*MSG* We continue verse by verse, as usual. MARK 8:14 = 14 The disciples had forgotten to bring bread. They had only one loaf with them in the boat. It is good to remember that these are not the grand, rich, flavorful two pound loaves of artisan bread we find today in bakeries and groceries across North America. This 'loaf' is far more likely to be an eight or ten inch diameter pita bread, or pocket bread, useful for making a 'sandwich' (not yet invented, BTW).
joegabe1:	*MSG* brb
1revd:	*MSG* k
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:15 = 15 "Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees. And watch out for the yeast of Herod." Once again the issue of cleanliness vs corruption comes to the forefront of our thinking. We remember that it is a fairly standard assumption of the times that yeast, as that which causes spoilage of good food unless carefully controlled . . . , though they seem to have had no perception that there were a variety of 'strains' of yeast. So here, yeast is a sign or stands as a symbol of corruption.
1revd:	*MSG* The reason the disciples of Jesus must be on guard, or 'watch out' for the yeast of the Pharisees or of Herod, is not to hint at two 'strains' of yeast. Modern, with their Greek approach to reality might want to distinguish the kind of spiritual influence of the Pharisees from that of the political influence of the Herodians. Rather, I suggest, this reflects the perception that a tiny bit of yeast when added to a mass of dough is able to grow precipitously and ferment the whole.
1revd:	*MSG* ^^^ Moderns,
1revd:	*MSG* A commentator's note suggests that this is specific warning to Jesus' followers against the wicked antipathy of both the Pharisees and of Herod Antipas. As the Apostle Paul had already written in his letter to the Romans, "Jews look for signs" as proofs of divine authority or actions.
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:16 = 16 They talked about this with each other. They said, "He must be saying this because we don't have any bread." Duuh! Talk about dimwits; this comment by our evangelist makes me all the more sympathetic with The Twelve. OTOH, they did not grow up knowing the gospel tale as I did, and even with such an advantage I still struggle to perceive what the Holy Spirit is telling me as I hear the words of Jesus read into my ears!
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:17 = 17 Jesus knew what they were saying. So he asked them, "Why are you talking about having no bread? Why can't you see or understand? Are you stubborn?" A different, older translation is a tad more blunt.
1revd:	*MSG* 17 Which Jesus knowing, saith to them: Why do you reason, because you have no bread? do you not yet know nor understand? have you still your heart blinded? [Douay-Rheims] And my own preference, as it captures the image of a hardened head or heart: 17 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?
1revd:	*MSG* I, for one, have to sympathize with Jesus, qua teacher, for I've been a dense, dimwit as a pupil many times. As a pastor striving to teach so simple a thing as Dr. Luther's SMALL CATECHISM, I was well aware of the pupils who simply did not catch on. As my granddaddy used to tell me, with some exasperation, as I practised my piano or trombone lessons, "put your thinking cap on, boy."
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:18 = 18 Do you have eyes and still don't see? Do you have ears and still don't hear? And don't you remember? Does the exasperated teacher image grab you as it does me?
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:19 = 19 Earlier I broke five loaves for the 5,000. How many baskets of pieces did you pick up?" "Twelve," they replied. As to what had happened, they had a good memory. What they somehow fail to grasp and hold is that Jesus himself provided the bread to share. The lesson, if there is one, is that Jesus is himself the source of what nourishes, from the POV of Mark.
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:20 = 20 "Later I broke seven loaves for the 4,000. How many baskets of pieces did you pick up?" "Seven," they answered. So, in both cases, whether for a crowd of mostly Jewish folk, or for a 'mixed bag' of Gentiles and some Jewish folk, there is an abundance of nourishment available. Jesus does not withhold himself from anyone! There is more than enough to satisfy even a large crowd of those who turn to the LORD Messiah Jesus for nourishment.
1revd:	*MSG* MARK 8:21 = 21 He said to them, "Can't you understand yet?" For me, and perhaps for me alone, this is one of the saddest, most disappointed, utterances of our Savior ever remembered and recorded. It is amazing, to me at least, that Jesus recognizes and confronts, the depth of depravity and corruption into which human minds can be twisted by separation from God our Father.
1revd:	*MSG* This was one of the snippets on which Pouncycat and I agreed 100%. . . , and she did not have a 'high' opinion of Lutherans, for the most part. :)
1revd:	*MSG* Notice that he does not lose his temper? Notice that Jesus does not boil over into anger? Notice his compassion for dimwits, like myself, whose sin warps our minds into such total lack of understanding; Jesus yet perseveres? Have we not a marvelous Messiah? Is not God our Savior wonderfully kind?
1revd:	*MSG* As I feel a sermon coming on, this will have to do for today; for next time we will focus on the healing of a blind man at Bethsaida (MARK 8:22-26). That cameo will bring us to the "dividing line" cameo of Mark's gospel tale that follows! Thereafter, Mark's tale rushes toward the cross.
1revd:	*MSG* Questions? Problems? Doubts? Worries?
joegabe1:	*MSG* no
kelly49:	*JOIN* Entered room.
coffeebot:	*MSG* kelly49 Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.
1revd:	*MSG* hello kelly
joegabe1:	*MSG* hi kelly welcome to the biblle study
kelly49:	*MSG* good morning
joegabe1:	*MSG* please remain silent during study
1revd:	*MSG* we are about to close the bible study, but welcome anyway!
1revd:	*MSG* Dear Joegabe, will you please lead us in a closing prayer?
joegabe1:	*MSG* ok
joegabe1:	*MSG* dear lord
joegabe1:	*MSG* thanks for all you do
joegabe1:	*MSG* and please bless and keep everyone healthy
joegabe1:	*MSG* we aSK this in jesus holy name
joegabe1:	*MSG* amen
1revd:	*MSG* amen

 

--

I may owe "Sasha" an apology. Seeing the "a" ending to the 'nic,' I made a

leap in presuming the writer was feminine, and made an extra effort to be

polite, imputing that desire to the writer. I wonder if "Sasha" will bother to

look in again? I wonder if this male is a RCC fellow or an Easterner? How
wrong can I get? My wife assures me I've much to learn about being wrong,
wrong, wrong, wrong.
                                                                                             
The Rev'd R E LANGFORD JR, FAPC, ELCA pastor  ! retired !
       39.58°N by 75.98°W

My clarity of conscience and my purity of heart are undisputed

evidence that my memory is failing me.        

`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸..·´¯`·...¸ ><(((((º> `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((º> `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.· ><((º>