Chapter 7 of MARK, composite

[R E LANGFORD JR]

Greetings All: CHRIST IS RISEN!
Here is a compilation of the comments prepared to Royal Family Coffee chatroom
this year, based on reflections, and what I could remember of what I've learned

about the good news according to Mark. This covers all of Chapter 7.
--

joegabe1: *MSG* Heavenly father

joegabe1: *MSG* We do well to give you thanks for all you do

joegabe1: *MSG* for us and we can not begin to pay you backk.

joegabe1: *MSG* Please remember Luna that is still in the hospital and pks father that is ailing

with copd

joegabe1: *MSG* you are a kind and loving god that loves us very much

joegabe1: *MSG* grant our teacher wisdom for his teachin of this study

joegabe1: *MSG* we ask this of you in the name of your son jesus

joegabe1: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* Amen.

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:1-8 Bible Study in Christian Friendship chatroom @ TalkCity,

1revd: *MSG* done FRI., 3 JNE 2011; revised and edited for 23 MCH 2012.

1revd: *MSG* Joegabe, would you post the verses, please?

joegabe1: *MSG* Mark 7

joegabe1: *MSG* That Which Defiles

joegabe1: *MSG* 1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from

Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were

defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands

a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the

marketplace they do not eat unless they

joegabe1: *MSG* wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups,

pitchers and kettles.[a])

joegabe1: *MSG* 5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, ???Why don???t your

disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled

hands????

joegabe1: *MSG* 6 He replied, ???Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it

is written:

joegabe1: *MSG* ??????These people honor me with their lips,

joegabe1: *MSG* but their hearts are far from me.

joegabe1: *MSG* 7 They worship me in vain;

joegabe1: *MSG* their teachings are merely human rules.???[b]

joegabe1: *MSG* 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human

traditions.???

1revd: *MSG* We still agree that the "???" stands for quotations marks?

joegabe1: *MSG* yes

1revd: *MSG* OK

1revd: *MSG* Today we begin a "new" chapter in Mark's gospel tale of Jesus. Chapter 7 provides

us with two items. #1 VV 1-23 show us the mind of the Messiah on the important social issue of

what's clean and what's unclean. #2 These same verses show us how the religious leaders of that era

were interpreting the Law of Moses, a "handed down" or "traditioned" way of thinking about this

same social issue.

1revd: *MSG* Sometimes this same tendency appears in the way Christians behave today.

1revd: *MSG* If we can get through just this much, we'll have wrapped our heads and thoughts

around something that really upset Jesus!

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:1 Then the Pharisees, and some of the scribes gathered together to him,

having come from Jerusalem. |The Bible| This seems to be yet another delegation sent by the

"higher ups" among the Pharisees in Jerusalem, along with the lawyers who knew the Law of

Moses. We remember that Mark has told us this kind of thing already . . .

1revd: *MSG* in MARK 3:22, The scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He has

Beelzebul," and, "By the prince of the demons he casts out the demons." |The Bible| The religious

leaders are checking up on someone who would nominally belong to their group. Jesus is clearly

not a part of the Saducees - the collaborators with the Romans, and also the Priestly party in charge

of the temple.

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:2 Now when they saw some of his disciples eating bread with defiled, that

is, unwashed, hands, they found fault. |The Bible| There's that key word: "defiled" elsewhere

translated "unclean."

1revd: *MSG* [ASIDE] I still get the quivers reading that. My granddaddy was a doc, and was (it

seemed to me) to be forever washing his hands. Grandmama would say things like, "Cleanliness is

next to Godliness," and my folks also made a fuss about us kids "washing up" before we came to

the table to eat. I've often wondered in other people had parents and grandparents who fussed so

much about having clean hands. [ASIDE ENDS]

1revd: *MSG* Did you have folks that fussed about clean hands, Joegabe?

joegabe1: *MSG* yes lol

1revd: *MSG* Oh my, it must be the climate then?

joegabe1: *MSG* no

1revd: *MSG* hehehehehehe

1revd: *MSG* This, in the cameo pericope today is not a concern with germs. Germ theory never

even got promulgated until the end of the 1800s. No! This is a concern or "fact finding" delegation

that wants to investigate the hinterland activities of a Galilean "prophet," a report on whom has

reached their ears in the temple.

joegabe1: *MSG* p.e.i. was a lot of farms

1revd: *MSG* ah so, farm kids were still getting a lot of fussing over clean hands to come to the

table back in the '60s in rural Ohio.

1revd: *MSG* VV 3-4 are often bracketed by translators. This is done to refresh our memories. Not

everyone in Mark's audience =some of whom, being Roman or other gentile listeners= would

comprehend that what upset Jesus was something that happened culturally within the Jewish

community.

1revd: *MSG* 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a

ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace

they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of

cups, pitchers and kettles.)

1revd: *MSG* Perhaps I ought mention that I've copied stuff from "Bible Gateway," and their NIV

translation?

joegabe1: *MSG* so do i

1revd: *MSG* neat

1revd: *MSG* [ASIDE] In VV 4 we read an interesting, if covert or hidden, comprehension of the

customs of the Pharisees "and all the Jews." Mark tells us that among the many other traditions they

observe is the "washing" of cups, pitchers, and kettles. Do tell? What's so odd about that? Ah, do

you realize that it's the word "baptize" that is translated here "washing?" Remember! This is no

concern for 21st century cleanliness, no worry about E-boli or samonella bugs getting into the

nooks and crannies of utensils used for food prep. This is a "tradition," a "custom," a "man made

rule." It is not at all something God wants or expects. [ASIDE ENDS]

1revd: *MSG* Modern Christians often forget that sort of thing. If it's good for keeping germs

down, betcha folks begin to believe God cares about it, and approves of making kids wash up

before eating.

1revd: *MSG* Notice also the "double whammy" effect of Mark's comment in VV 3 as it it

repeated in VV 5, this time with the emphasis spelled out for the "slower" folks in the audience (I

am one of those.)

1revd: *MSG* it is ^^^

1revd: *MSG* Moving on, MARK 7:5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why don't your

disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?" |

The Bible|

1revd: *MSG* One of the translators I've read suggested that Mark framed this part of the tale to

reflect what happened in the early Christian community, post crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

His argument ran that the Pharisees were bugging the early Christians, and so Mark "invented" this

confrontation and stuck it into his tale.

1revd: *MSG* I do not buy this version, in fact I find it contrived.

1revd: *MSG* Mark is a story teller, and he would have been "called" on it if a person in the

audience remembered a different version of events. At the very least, this must be, I write again,

MUST BE, a report of something very like what surely happened more than once.

1revd: *MSG* The "ceremonial" law was a part of the tradition of the elders in Jewish society, it

extended way past the Levites and Aaronic priesthood. At that time the ceremonial "law" was

considered binding! Note especially how contact with "ritually unclean" people like Gentiles "in the

marketplace," or with other Jews who did not observe the ceremonial law (such as shepherds, day

laborers, etc.) would cause people who "ought" to care about the ceremonial law to become

ceremonially "unclean" themselves!

1revd: *MSG* When I was in Junior High School, in a largely Jewish community, some of the

Jewish boys would not eat with the other Jewish boys, because that group would eat at the same

tables as us few Gentile boys going to that school. The antique rules about ceremonial cleanliness

were still "in play" among the orthodox Jewish families of my young adulthood.

1revd: *MSG* The Jews of Jesus' time had turned up-side down the reason Moses gave the

direction in the first place. The Jews, particularly the Pharisees, of Jesus' era thought along the

following line. "Defilement is contageous!" People who are "unclean" can make you unclean

simply by contact.

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why don't your disciples

walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?" |The Bible|

1revd: *MSG* We remember the question!

1revd: *MSG* Even so, a thought arises.

1revd: *MSG* [ASIDE] Why should the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law of Moses care how

the disciples of Jesus behave? Could it be that they were thinking of him, Jesus, as one of their

own? or even potentially someone they wanted to enlist in their cadre of speakers? IMO, it's a tricky

question. A lot of Jesus' concerns would be easy to lump with the concerns of the Pharisaic party.

He is forever telling people what the Law of Moses really wants from them. This makes him

informally a Pharisee and a scribe! Just my wandering and wondering! [ASIDE ENDS]

1revd: *MSG* Jesus answers by quoting one of the greatest of the prophets: Isaiah. ISAIAH 29:13

The Lord said, "Because this people draws near with their mouth and with their lips to honor me,

but they have removed their heart far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men

which has been taught; |The Bible|

1revd: *MSG* I've even preached on this theme in Lent, back in the 1970s.

1revd: *MSG* Here Jesus uses a quotation from Isaiah who slammed the leaders of his day.

1revd: *MSG* Jesus uses this quotation to provide the link, the direct connection, between the

"tradition of the elders," and "rules taught by men." Thus, Jesus denounced the people questioning

him, just as Isaiah did many long years before!

1revd: *MSG* This shows us the right use of Scripture for admonition and correction. It ought

never be used as condemnation; that belongs to the Judge of the living and the dead. Instruction and

encouragement of spiritual growth belongs to all called upon to teach and preach in Christ's church.

1revd: *MSG* Joegabe, you have quoted the author to the Thessalonians on this point often. It is

always a good reminder!

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:6, 6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you

hypocrites; as it is written:" Jesus takes authority over the scripture already written. He declares it is

a prophesy about the people standing in front of him at that present moment. "These people honor

me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are

merely human rules."

1revd: *MSG* Then comes the amazing thing! (WOW! It always stuns me to hear it.) Jesus nails

down his assertion with a verdict. MARK 7:8 "You have let go of the commands of God and are

holding on to human traditions."

1revd: *MSG* During Lent, indeed in every time of the year but especially in this time as we strive

to purge and purify our thoughts and words and deeds in preparation for celebrating and

remembering the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, we must (IMO) ask ourselves just how far

we have gone astray from God's Word. We need to ask ourselves whether we are holding fast to

human traditions in such a way that would distress our Master and Savior.

1revd: *MSG* Again, then, dear Friends, IMO, we who read and listen to MARK and strive to

comprehend it, to hear it as those in Mark's first audiences heard his Gospel Tale, need to ask

ourselves if, or whether, we also do as the "nit-pickers" of Jesus' era did. Do we substitute cultural

rules, social standards, etc. for the commands of God? If we are to believe what we read, I am

convinced that we have to agree that we are just like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' time. Again,

however, that is my view of things, my POV.

1revd: *MSG* I cannot answer for you, but I know I must be perpetually on guard against all sorts

of temptations to conform to society's pressures and prejudices simply to avoid the hassle of

explaining what I hope to achieve by sticking to what God wants of me, and strictly to that alone. I

do not always succeed. My wife can tell you that about me.

1revd: *MSG* BTW, that is one of the wonderful things about having a believing disciple of Jesus

for a spouse. She watches out for me when I stumble, and I watch out for her. I could not have done

the tasks, the job I did in gospel ministry for 40+ years were it not for the understanding and

support and correction of a faithful spouse.

1revd: *MSG* Here, we must end for today.

1revd: *MSG* Joegabe, would you please lead us in prayer?

joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord,

joegabe1: *MSG* As we start living our week until the next study

joegabe1: *MSG* grant us peace and goood health

joegabe1: *MSG* and let us lead good lives in honor of your presence and will for us

joegabe1: *MSG* make us know how to serve you in the best possible way

joegabe1: *MSG* and to treat people as you would

joegabe1: *MSG* we ask this in jesus holy name

joegabe1: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* Amen.

1revd: *MSG* Well, joegabe, how about an opening prayer?

joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord,

joegabe1: *MSG* We do well to give you thanks

joegabe1: *MSG* for all you do for us

joegabe1: *MSG* please inspire our gracious teacher

joegabe1: *MSG* and help all the people that has needs that

joegabe1: *MSG* we have to pray for

joegabe1: *MSG* luna in the hosp and zeke and kricket that need prayer

joegabe1: *MSG* please help also pks dad who is ailing and is on oxygen

joegabe1: *MSG* we ask this in the name of jesus your son

joegabe1: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* Amen.

pk: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* On 10 JNE 11, I did an "experimental" posting of the bible study. It was not posted

in the typical way in the chatroom. BIBLE STUDY on MARK 7:8-13. A Happy Easter Season

Greetings on this Friday in the last week of this 50 day period called the Pentecostarion! That was a

year ago!

1revd: *MSG* Joegabe would you post MARK 7:8-13?

joegabe1: *MSG* Mark 7:8-13

joegabe1: *MSG* New King James Version (NKJV)

joegabe1: *MSG*

joegabe1: *MSG* 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of

men[a] ???the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.???

joegabe1: *MSG*

joegabe1: *MSG* 9 He said to them, ???All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you

may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ???Honor your father and your mother???;[b] and, ???

He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.???[c] 11 But you say, ???If a man says to

his father or mother, ???Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban????????? (that

is, a gift to God), 12

joegabe1: *MSG* then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making

the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such

things you do.???

1revd: *MSG* We continue to agree that a "???" stands for a quote mark (")

1revd: *MSG* yes?

joegabe1: *MSG* yes

1revd: *MSG* grand

1revd: *MSG* In last week's snippet we noticed that Jesus restricts his answers. He sticks to

scripture. His adversaries can hardly fault him for that. That is where they claim to begin.

1revd: *MSG* Jesus, however, sticks to scripture in such a way that demonstrates he is speaking

from a POV, from a world-view, in which God (his father in heaven) is breaking into an alien realm

and becoming king here on earth, inside this world, as he is already king in heaven.

1revd: *MSG* Transforming creation itself is part of this: Jesus goes about healing all sorts of

broken people.

1revd: *MSG* Transforming society is part of this: Jesus goes about re-establishing God's ideas

about who and what is clean/ pure, and what or who is unclean/ filthy. A broken society/ culture is

being healed!

1revd: *MSG* Transforming people themselves is part of this; Jesus awakens hearts, opens "eyes,"

creates compassion and forgiveness by himself having compassion and by forgiving.

1revd: *MSG* I've chosen to rehearse vv. 8 here, which we covered last week as a conclusion /

verdict of Jesus on the prior cameo.

1revd: *MSG* I chose this in part because different translations link it with the prior verse, and

others with the following. Yet still others let it stand, almost independently, as the verdict of our

savior in that circumstance wherein he was being questioned by "experts" from Jerusalem.

1revd: *MSG* 8 "You have let go of God's commands. And you are holding on to the teachings that

men have made up."

1revd: *MSG* Jesus continues by specifying the contrast between the "teaching of the elders or

traditions of men" and the "commands of God." God's commands are recorded in the bible, and are

always understood to be "binding." OTOH, the "traditions of the elders" {see also vv.3} while not

biblical, and therefore not authoritative nor binding, had been elevated to a position of prominence

by many in the Jewish community of that day. Then Jesus gives a specific example.

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:10-12

1revd: *MSG* 10 "Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother.'?(Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16)

He also said, 'If anyone calls down a curse on his father or mother, he will be put to death.' ?

(Exodus 21:17; Leviticus 20:9)

1revd: *MSG* I put the bible references to what Jesus is quoting in parentheses. I hope that helps.

1revd: *MSG* 11 But you allow people to say to their parents, 'Any help you might have received

from us is CORBAN.' (CORBAN means 'a gift set apart for God.')

1revd: *MSG* [ASIDE: Sometimes CORBAN is spelled with a "k" == KORBAN. ASIDE ENDS]

1revd: *MSG* 12 So you no longer let them do anything for their parents."

1revd: *MSG* Notice that Jesus does not tangle things up for simple-minded folk like myself. He

doesn't bother to say that HE gave Moses the command. Or, if you prefer, Jesus does not bother to

say YHWH spoke a word on this subject to Moses, a word / a command which Moses then handed

along to all Israel. No! He jumps right to the "talking point" of his adversaries, who had come to put

him on the spot in an examination, and says, "Moses said." That cuts the ground away from them,

when the person they're accusing of unclean teaching of unclean disciples quotes their own

authority, showing them that they've got it wrong.

1revd: *MSG* Oh, yes, I forgot a point.

1revd: *MSG* [ASIDE] CORBAN is a transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning "offering."

[ASIDE ENDS]

1revd: *MSG* hahaha

1revd: *MSG* clumsy fingers

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:11 "But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to

help their father or mother is CORBAN (that is, devoted to God)?"

1revd: *MSG* Here's the nub of the problem! At the time of Jesus, by using this word in a religious

promise, an irresponsible son was permitted to dedicate, formally, to God, i.e. truly to the temple,

his earnings (profits) that otherwise whould have rightly gone for the support of his elderly parents.

This money, or goods in kind, such as new lambs, did not necessarily have to be spent for religious

purposes.

1revd: *MSG* From the perspective of Jesus it appears that the religious authorities were colluding

in a scheme by adult children responsible for their elderly parents to defraud their parents of proper

care and support. That's not the worst part, however. The whole enterprise hinges on purposefully

misreading the word God spoke to Moses! If it were only a social injustice, perhaps Jesus would

have called them on it. In fact, he renders a verdict on their religious practice, their spiritual life,

because of how they accomplish their trickery.

1revd: *MSG* Remember that in Jesus' day most folks did not live past childhood, a 30 year old

was an adult in the prime of life, a 40 year old was elderly - and usually sick or infirm, and a 50

year old was what we call the "feeble elderly" today. . . . unless you were a Roman emperor or

senator with access to the best medical care, or perhaps a Herodian king, like Antipas.

1revd: *MSG* Caring for the sick and elderly is slowly becoming a problem in the USA, as more

folks called the "baby boom" generation reach retirement age of 65 or 70.

1revd: *MSG* We ought remember, it seems to me, that when the German Kaiser asked his

chancellor at what age to promise that the state would provide a pension for elderly soldiers,

Bismark gave an answer which has stuck with us since the 1870s.

1revd: *MSG* He said, "Sixty-five, your Majesty." Bismark knew full well that in the Germany of

the 1870s, most people died by the time they were 57 or 58!

1revd: *MSG* I was blest to have worked for a congregation that allowed me to put in a full 40+

years since ordination. I was ready to retire @ 65, mainly because that's what m'dad did, but they

asked me to continue until I was older.

1revd: *MSG* Some folks could continue working today, based on the actuarial tables, until they

are in their late 80s. Think of that! To be able to keep working, perhaps 20 hours a week, until

you're in your 90s

1revd: *MSG* wow!

1revd: *MSG* Things have not changed, however. People are just as hard hearted as in Jesus' day.

Thus we see the CORBAN formula was truly a bit of trickery for circumventing the clearly

established duty of children to care for their feeble or needy parents, as prescribed in Moses' Law.

1revd: *MSG* At that time the rabbis, and scribes of the temple, were holding that the CORBAN

oath, even uttered foolishly or rashly, was binding. This is just one of several practices wherein the

letter of the law was upheld while the intent of the law was flouted.

1revd: *MSG* I keep trying to think of some contemporary practice based on a human promise that

is like the CORBAN arrangement 2000 years ago.

1revd: *MSG* Any ideas?

joegabe1: *MSG* no

1revd: *MSG* me neither

1revd: *MSG* Flouting the law by keeping to the letter of the law, while ignoring the intent, ought

not surprise us. No indeed! This ought not surprise us. Do we not become indignant when people

shirk their responsibilities today by 'finding,' or more honestly 'creating' loop-holes in man-written

laws such as try to govern our society equitably?

1revd: *MSG* Who can fail to be amused by a recent US Supreme Court decision about

corporations' and their protected freedom of speech? Now the decision assures huge corporations

the right to spend amazing sums of cash on promotion of this or that candidate for some political

office, something some humans thought they had prevented. That prevention was dissolved by the

court's decision. Now, it's shown to be just as unpopular when the shoe is on the other foot.

1revd: *MSG* One wag put it this way, "I'll believe corporations have the same rights and freedom

of speech as living people when Texas executes one of them." I put it to you that our man made

laws and traditions of our elders are no better than were the same invented customs in Jesus' day!

1revd: *MSG* It will be amusing to discover which way our US Supreme Court jumps on this

affordable health care law. It will be even more amusing to watch and listen to how our presidential

candidates fuss over the result. How wonderful to have a Savior who asks us to focus our attention,

not on man-made laws, on God's Word to us in Jesus!

1revd: *MSG* It may be worth noting that Mark, as he tells this tale, explains what CORBAN

means. This implies, at least to me, that he may be addressing an audience with plenty of Gentiles,

perhaps mainly Romans. If this implication is on sound grounds, then it means Mark's audiences at

the very least were quite a mixed bag, and not mainly Jewish (knowing Hebrew). I trust that does

not surprise anyone who has been following this bible study wherein we strive to hear things in the

tale the way a first century listener would have heard the story.

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:12-13 (again another verdict) 12 "then you no longer let them do anything

for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have

handed down. And you do many things like that."

1revd: *MSG* It's important not to let ourselves be tricked into thinking Jesus is collapsing Jewish

Law into a private kind of piety. We cannot conclude from these words that Jesus is REALLY

teaching a spurious "religion of the heart." Such a religion would have nothing to do with public

life, how people treated each other, or even how we would treat our nearest relatives.

1revd: *MSG* No! This is no "religion of the heart" no private religious matter intended to be kept

hidden and private, at home or in the church or synagogue. No! This is an incredibly powerful

conclusion!

1revd: *MSG* This is an indictment of a whole tradition: rabbis, scribes, Pharisees (all of whom

cared deeply - at least publicly - for the Law of Moses). I put it to you that it's worth several

moments to ponder why Jesus, who I claim was the one to give the Law to Moses, ought care so

much as to confront these "experts" from Jerusalem.

1revd: *MSG* Last time I touched on my suspicion that Jesus may have thought of himself as

belonging to the Pharisaic party - - in so far as they were the only group that attempted to promote

adherence to the law. It's clear to me that Jesus cares deeply for getting the word of God to Moses

straight, and to make human practice mesh with that standard.

1revd: *MSG* I betcha Jesus was no more popular with the people he publicly showed up to be

tricksters and conniving, treacherous folk who made such trickery possible, as is the court (the

"Supremes") or any "whistle blower" who calls attention to wrong-doing, or inequitable provisions

in human laws.

1revd: *MSG* That was where this effort ended on 10 JNE 2011, so it's a good place to end today. I

wrote that I looked forward to reading joegabe's, cookieart's, and any other comments on this

experimental effort to present a rather attenuated "bible study." It differs considerably from the

somewhat longer ones presented in the chatroom! Please, do let me know what you think. TY TY!

pk: *MSG* rev that was good

1revd: *MSG* Today, we're ending just about on time, what with a few additions.

1revd: *MSG* ty pk

1revd: *MSG* joegabe, would you lead us in prayer?

joegabe1: *PART* Left room.

1revd: *MSG* oh my

joegabe1: *JOIN* Entered room.

coffeebot: *MSG* joegabe1 Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.

coffeebot: *MSG* 4Administrator: joegabe1. Type !x to view coffeebot's Control Panel.

joegabe1: *MSG* Dear God

joegabe1: *MSG* As we go through the week until next weeks study

joegabe1: *MSG* let us rejoice that we have our life and our health

joegabe1: *MSG* let us pray for all those that are ailing and also do your work lord

joegabe1: *MSG* we ask this in jesus holy name

joegabe1: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* Amen.

1revd: *MSG* 1:30 P,M,.

precious: *JOIN* Entered room.

coffeebot: *MSG* precious Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.

coffeebot: *MSG* 4Administrator: precious. Type !x to view coffeebot's Control Panel.

1revd: *MSG* wb precious

joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord,

joegabe1: *MSG* We need to study and leanr your great

joegabe1: *MSG* teaching. Which we have done. As we go on

joegabe1: *MSG* with our weeek, can you keep us all safe

joegabe1: *MSG* and healthy. It is necessary for us to learn

joegabe1: *MSG* the bible, as we are clearly living in the

joegabe1: *MSG* last days and the government and the people

joegabe1: *MSG* are trying to take you out of the mainstream

joegabe1: *MSG* of life. I pray that never ever happys cause

joegabe1: *MSG* we need you more and more in our last day.

joegabe1: *MSG* Please remember pk's dad and luna as they are sick lord.

joegabe1: *MSG* We ask all of this in Jesus holy name

joegabe1: *MSG* Amen

1revd: *MSG* Amen.

precious: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* On 17 JUNE 2011, I presented MARK 7:14-16 as a bible study experiment for

Christian Friendship chatroom @ Talk City, now edited and revised for Royal Family Coffee

chatroom for Maundy Thursday (as I have a prior commitment for Good Friday) @ 1:30 P.M., (edt)

5APR12.

1revd: *MSG* Joegabe, would you please post MARK 7:14-16?

joegabe1: *MSG* Mark 7:14-16

joegabe1: *MSG* New King James Version (NKJV)

joegabe1: *MSG*

joegabe1: *MSG* 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, ???Hear

Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile

him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has

ears to hear, let him hear!???[a]

1revd: *MSG* We remember that a "???" stands for a quotation mark; yes?

joegabe1: *MSG* yes

1revd: *MSG* grand

1revd: *MSG* It appears that last week's experiment, while it provoked no generally helpful

criticism, did not seem to trigger antagonism either. Let us continue this experiment for a 2nd week

eventhough it is offered a day "early."

1revd: *MSG* Some time ago, as we looked at MARK 1:1, I put a question to those reading and

studying. It was: 'How do you understand the phrase: "the beginning of the gospel. . . "?' There

were, as one might guess, a variety of answers.

1revd: *MSG* Later, when there tended to be more Q&A in the chatroom, someone asked, "What

are we to learn from this?" I have to admit I did not understand the question. I'd presumed that my

initial explanation of what's going on in the Gospel according to Mark was adequate, from the

perspective of this bible study. Perhaps I was in error?

1revd: *MSG* I can think of no more suitable way to prepare for Resurrection Sunday than to read

Mark's gospel tale. Later, when there tended to be more Q&A in the chatroom, someone asked,

"What are we to learn from this?" I have to admit I did not understand the question. I'd presumed

that my initial explanation of what's going on in the Gospel according to Mark was adequate, from

the perspective of this bible study. Perhaps I was in error?

1revd: *MSG* Let me ask all who take part in this bible study to read, again, the Gospel according

to Mark! It is a short tale. It will not take you long to read it, as folks say, through and through.

Even better yet, if you have a good friend or family member willing to work with you, have them

share with you the effort to read it aloud. Saint Paul tells us that faith comes through hearing; this is

why I urge you to listen, again, to the tale by Mark.

1revd: *MSG* It will be a good preparation for Easter this year. Those who use the ecumenical

three year revised common lectionary know that this is the year to read in MARK.

1revd: *MSG* Again, I admit that I thought I'd indicated that I agree with Saint Paul, and faith

comes through hearing God's Word to us as it is in Jesus, God's Messiah. I had written, "Suppose, if

you were writing a short story, and MARK is short, and it was about a chief character and assorted

other characters, and no one had written on this design previously . . . , and suppose you wished to

make your story such that those who heard it would become convinced it simply had to be told to

everyone, it was such good news . . . ; then, couldn't it be the case that by putting "the beginning of

the good news" at the front of his story . . . , (the author) is telling us as listeners (readers) that we

need to get into his tale in order to grasp and hold whatever benefit will come?"

1revd: *MSG* It will be good to hear MARK again!

1revd: *MSG* The reason I rehearse this again is that I am convinced that we cannot gather to

ourselves the full flavor or taste of this "good news" unless we are thoroughly invested in the

hearing of the tale. I furthermore believe that by striving to hear it as a "brand new" tale, told just

for us, we find ourselves in the position of first century listeners.

1revd: *MSG* This is amazingly difficult, at least for me, as none of us in the USA have lived

under the thumb, so to say, of an alien dictatorship -- in Jesus' case, Rome. Secondly, none of us in

this contemporary era lives under the thumb, so to say, of a corrupt "state church" -- in Jesus' case,

the temple's administrators, the chief priests and the Sadduces (both of whom were in league with

the Romans and their puppet Herod). Thirdly, none of us today lives under the thumb, so to say, or

an upstart, Quisling, imposed dictatorship / monarchy -- in Jesus' case, the clique formed around the

descendants of Herod: Phillip and Antipas. The technical term for this feature of translation or

interpretation is "sitz im leben," from the German for "situation in life" of the chief character(s), the

context of the tale.

1revd: *MSG* So far, so good?

1revd: *MSG* So, let me rehearse and clarify: #1, this is the first time that the tale has been told to

you . . . , (some of us may have hard work to make the leap in remembering when it was we heard

MARK for the first time).

1revd: *MSG* #2, this tale goes on, and resounds in the lives of the hearers (listeners or readers)

even when the first telling is over . . . , IMO, just as Jesus and his faithful disciple Mark intended.

1revd: *MSG* #3, this story is not about (as one more modern translation puts it) Jesus, though

prima facie it is ABOUT Jesus. This tale is rather the beginning of His impact on the lives of those

who hear the tale of His good news about His Father and the kingdom. In that sense, it is about the

fact that the one true God is breaking into this dark world, beginning in Jesus, in such a way that the

rule of God, the kingdom of God, comes on earth as it already is in heaven. This kingdom comes

suddenly, stealthily, surprisingly, and with amazing force -- not just in the lives, the hearts and

minds of individual believers, but also in their religious practices and behaviors, and every other

aspect of their public lives.

1revd: *MSG* #4, (the author) wrote his tale (after telling it fairly often) to begin at what he

considers the beginning of the good news OF Jesus, that is, not good news ABOUT Jesus (though

of course that will happen, both in the tale and in the lives of those who hear it). We listen to hear

the good news OF Jesus because it is the gospel of Jesus about what Jesus considers important. I

concluded by promoting the view that: BTW, there may be more than 4 possible implications that

I've noted here. There's some scholarly debate about such things. Thus far, no one has promoted a

different perspective. If I'm not careful, I'll end up thinking my view is the only correct one.

1revd: *MSG* I trust we can all agree that this last POV would be not just dangerous but silly also.

1revd: *MSG* Yes?

precious: *MSG* yes

1revd: *MSG* grand

1revd: *MSG* Today, I am hoping to address MARK 7:14-16. There is a major problem with the

redaction of the tale at this point. In fact, the NIV (which many regard as modestly competent as a

translation) omits vv. 16. In essence, when push comes to shove, do we focus on the earliest

manuscripts which do not include this verse? Or, do we opt for what seems to be an inclusion by

some later scribe(s), copiest(s), who may simply have copied 4:9, or 4:23, since this verse seems to

be a favorite verbal 'condiment' in the speech patterns of Jesus?

1revd: *MSG* Then again, whichever option we choose there remains the question, "Did Jesus toss

in this remark himself, and Mark chose to ignore it here; or then again, if Jesus did not say it, does

that change what is his "verdict" in MARK 7:14-15? Does this spicy remark change the verdict; I

encourage you to ponder this question! If it does change, tell us how. If it doesn't change, tell us

why.

1revd: *MSG* I'll look for comments next time around.

precious: *MSG* ok

1revd: *MSG* Here is the NIV, 1984 quote, and footnote, joegabe 1 showed us there was a

footnote, but not what it was. '14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me,

everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him.

Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.[a]' FOOTNOTE [a]: some early

manuscripts have 'unclean.' and immediately include V. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

joegabe1: *PART* Left room.

joegabe1: *JOIN* Entered room.

coffeebot: *MSG* joegabe1 Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.

coffeebot: *MSG* 4Administrator: joegabe1. Type !x to view coffeebot's Control Panel.

precious: *MSG* wb

1revd: *MSG* wb joegabe1

joegabe1: *MSG* ty

1revd: *MSG* Some folks will tell you that Jesus is hereby setting aside the entire law of Moses. I

don't believe that! What he is doing is causing people to focus on the INTENT of what Moses

handed down, IMO. This will come forth even more clearly when we get into the question of being

physically unclean versus unclean with respect to the rule of God, as the Lord Jesus himself teaches

in the next few verses.

1revd: *MSG* I put it to you that Jesus is taking on the whole Jewish cultural means of

distinguishing themselves as descendents of Abraham from the defiled or 'unclean' Gentile

populations (tribes) around them.

1revd: *MSG* This KOSHER marking is a social device that had worked well until Jesus' time, and

for some Jewish people continues to work in the present day to set the Hebrew people apart from

other people. Cultural identity in a minority people, and to some extent marginalized people, had

become critically important with pagan Romans and Greeks in every town or village of any size.

Even Moses recognized that before the issue became important upon entry into the land of promise!

Yet, even so, KOSHER rules are all subject to corruption and mis-interpretation.

1revd: *MSG* Do please reread Mark's account, with special focus on the remaining verses of this

extended cameo: MARK 7:17-23.

1revd: *MSG* Preferably, re-read the entire gospel. Or, better yet, have some friend or family

member help you with reading the whole tale aloud. That's good preparation for or getting the heart

ready to receive the faith that the Holy Spirit wishes to plant in us.

1revd: *MSG* This segment was clearly understood by Saint Paul, for he writes about it, and uses

it as a principle for sharing good news with gentiles "outside" the law. I write it again! The issue is

not what you eat which passes through your mouth and intestinal system, eventually ending in a

cess pit or sanitary sewer.

1revd: *MSG* No! The real issue is your INTENT in eating whatever you eat, and how it

influences your relationship with other people with respect to the rule of God in the here and now.

More, much more on this next time!

1revd: *MSG* This is an incredibly simple point, but it illustrates how Jesus was taking on the

whole cultural, political, economic, social, and religious system of the Jewish people of his day.

They were looking for a messiah to be sure, but they were NOT looking for a messiah who would

overturn several systems all at the same time. Furthermore, this is not just an attack on personal or

private religious expression, but a direct attack on public behavior as well.

1revd: *MSG* In this respect I feel mild pity for people who think Christianity is a matter solely of

an individual's heart and mind.

1revd: *MSG* They miss how Jesus confronts the way a society as a whole must change. If people

are tired of despots, inequitable rules, corruption in government, in the churches, unfair labor and

financial practices, and a whole army of other injustices, then they might want to be careful of

asking the LORD God Almighty to step in and take charge. What Jesus does, acting so to say as the

C.E.O. of God, is to attack the society at its roots.

Gilligan8: *JOIN* Entered room.

coffeebot: *MSG* Gilligan8 Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.

Gilligan8: *PART* Left room.

Gilligan8: *JOIN* Entered room.

coffeebot: *MSG* Gilligan8 Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.

1revd: *MSG* In our country, the USA, the founding authors of the constitution and bill or rights

understood this. The congress may not establish, in public, any religion. The congress may also not

hamper the free expression, in public, of any religion. This is not merely a matter solely of this or

that individual's heart and mind. It's not just about private worship! It has to do with how groups of

persons, tribes and nations, will behave toward one another. All this is hidden in the attack on the

kosher rules by Jesus.

precious: *MSG* hi gilligan

precious: *MSG* welcome to bible study

Gilligan8: *MSG* hello

Gilligan8: *MSG* thanx

Gilligan8: *MSG* whats happning?

joegabe1: *MSG* shhhhh

joegabe1: *MSG* study in porogress

1revd: *MSG* I'll write it again!

1revd: *MSG* No! The real issue is your intent in eating whatever you eat, and how it influences

your relationship with other people with respect to the rule of God in the here and now. More, much

more on this next time!

Gilligan8: *MSG* u napping joe?

1revd: *MSG* hi gilligan

1revd: *MSG* That will have to be it, joegabe, for today. Will you lead us in prayer?

joegabe1: *MSG* carry on 1revd

joegabe1: *MSG* ok

1revd: *MSG* ok?

joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord

joegabe1: *MSG* Please bless us as we go toward our week

joegabe1: *MSG* until the next study

joegabe1: *MSG* remember the people that are ill lord

joegabe1: *MSG* pk's dad, luna and anyone else that i may have missed

joegabe1: *MSG* we ask this in jesus holy name

joegabe1: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* Amen.

joegabe1: *MSG* hi Gilligan8`

Gilligan8: *MSG* hi joe

1revd: *MSG* May you all have a blessed and joyous Resurrection Sunday; and good cheer,

satisfaction and contentment throughout the 50 days of Easter Season to Pentecost!

joegabe1: *MSG* i be back in a few

precious: *MSG* you too rev will miss you till friday

1revd: *MSG* ty ty

Gilligan8: *MSG* tomorroe is the day he was nailed to the cross

1revd: *MSG* we'll be @ our eldest daughter's family for Easter Sunday

precious: *MSG* we know that gilligan

Gilligan8: *MSG* if our calender is right

1revd: *MSG* the calendar is off by about four years

1revd: *MSG* and several days

Gilligan8: *MSG* wouldn doubt that

1revd: *MSG* the big issue is our remembrance and prayer and celebration of what Jesus

accomplished on the cross, IMO

precious: *MSG* amen

302.1

joegabe11: *MSG* Dear Lord,

joegabe11: *MSG* We come to you to ask you to bless this

joegabe11: *MSG* study and inspire our teacher with words

joegabe11: *MSG* to teach us and glorify your name. It is

joegabe11: *MSG* of benifit for us to learn your word. We ask

joegabe11: *MSG* that you hold up in prayer these following

joegabe11: *MSG* people as they need your special care. Luna

joegabe11: *MSG* who is still in the hospital, zeke and kricket

joegabe11: *MSG* as we never heart from them and also PK father

joegabe11: *MSG* as he is still on oxygen. You are a kind and

joegabe11: *MSG* loving god so you will protect them all. We ask

joegabe11: *MSG* all this in the name of your son Jesus

joegabe11: *MSG* Amen

1revd: *MSG* AMEN!

joegabe11: *MSG* ame

joegabe11: *MSG* amen

1revd: *MSG* Joegabe11, would you please post MARK 7:16-23?

joegabe11: *MSG* English Standard Version (ESV)

joegabe11: *MSG*

joegabe11: *MSG* 17 And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked

him about the parable. 18 And he said to them, ???Then are you also without understanding? Do

you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not

his heart but his stomach, and is expelled????[a] ( Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said,

???What comes out of

joegabe11: *MSG* a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come

evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality,

envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a

person.???

1revd: *MSG* We continue to note that a "???" mark stands for a quotation mark, yes?

joegabe11: *MSG* yes

1revd: *MSG* grand

1revd: *MSG* BTW, did anyone give some thought to why someone who claimed to adhere to the

Law of Moses might stumble into the error noted by Jesus in Mark's vv.13 of chapter 7? [13 You

make the word of God useless by putting your own teachings in its place. And you do many things

like that." A comment by Jesus, NIRV.]

1revd: *MSG* no one, it seems

1revd: *MSG* The whole matter of "corban" is well documented in NUMBERS 30:1-2 "1 Moses

spoke to the heads of the tribes of Israel. He said, 'Here is what the Lord commands. 2 Suppose a

man makes a special promise to the Lord. Or suppose he takes an oath and agrees to do something.

Then he must keep his promise. He must do everything he said he would do.'" What's wrong with

keeping a vow or promise or oath?

1revd: *MSG* What had been happening is what Jesus detailed in the prior verses of Mark's tale

(Ch.7, vv.9-12). The scribes (teachers of the law of Moses) rightly appeal to the text of NUMBERS

30, quoted above. What Jesus highlights and specifically rejects is their practice of using one

portion of the law of Moses to abrogate or set aside another portion of the same law of Moses. IMO,

Jesus is making it clear that the whole law stands AS A UNIT. When Jesus attacks those who

interpret the law of Moses in this way, he is confronting some key figures in the temple government

as well as the party of the Pharisees.

1revd: *MSG* I put it to you that when our LORD God gave Moses the law, he never gave it with

the intent that obedience to one command would set aside the expectation of obedience to some

other word from him. In essence, breaking one part of the law of Moses is the same as breaking

every element in it, because it shows disrespect for the GIVER of the law to Moses.

1revd: *MSG* [Sorry to intrude that backward glance into our conversation today. It was called to

my attention that I'd not spelled it out thoroughly for those who share an interest in MARK.]

1revd: *MSG* Any problems; any questions?

joegabe11: *MSG* thats ok

joegabe11: *MSG* no

joegabe11: *MSG* lol

1revd: *MSG* good

1revd: *MSG* I believe I've already noted that the earliest manuscript versions of Mark's tale omit,

or rather do not have, verse 16: "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." I had asked if anyone

thinks Jesus' verdict would be different if this clause were inserted, or OTOH, not there, yes?

1revd: *MSG* :)

1revd: *MSG* Perhaps we ought go verse by verse, as we have in the past?

joegabe11: *MSG* yes

1revd: *MSG* OK

1revd: *MSG* "17 Then he left the crowd and entered the house. His disciples asked him about this

teaching." [NIRV] Ah ha! Back in Capernaum, and the Twelve are exhibiting their typical dense as

a door-post behavior. It implies that some in the crowd caught on to what Jesus was doing

immediately. This is a typical "ploy" of story-teller Mark: the Twelve seem to lack common sense

wits, and they are slow to believe what Jesus teaches.

1revd: *MSG* [ASIDE: It makes me realize that I would feel quite at home among the Twelve as

Mark portrays them! It likewise opens up a thought. Perhaps the situation was so much a "tinderbox"

ready to explode, that Jesus could not be so plain spoken in public. Only in the privacy of his

house could he say among putative friends what was the truth. This tends to mitigate a little bit

against a view that sees the Twelve as dunderheads like myself. ASIDE ENDS]

1revd: *MSG* Any problems; any questions?

joegabe11: *MSG* no

1revd: *MSG* grand

1revd: *MSG* "18 "Don't you understand?" Jesus asked. "Don't you see? Nothing that enters

people from the outside can make them 'unclean.'" [NIRV] Jesus reiterates and unfolds quite bluntly

what he had said to the crowd. That's a "double whammy" of criticism for the Twelve, IMO.

1revd: *MSG* "19 It doesn't go into the heart. It goes into the stomach. Then it goes out of the

body." In saying this, Jesus was calling all foods "clean."" [NIRV] Here is the core of the intent, as

I've suggested earlier, of the law of Moses. Notice that Jesus is at least as much a physician as the

average priest of his day. He knew the alimentary canal, and he knows the heart is not a part of that

system.

1revd: *MSG* It's worth knowing that, in his era, folks thought the "will" resided in the kidneys,

the "working" of the body was the responsibility of the head or brain, but the thinking that led to

action (good or evil) arose in the core of a person, in his or her heart. Some folks will tell you that

this is what we mean today by the term "emotions."

1revd: *MSG* I don't buy that suggestion for several reasons, primary of which is that how we feel,

or our emotions, are so nuanced by what we had for breakfast. Is there a surplus of sugar or alcohol

in our bloodstream, and, for that matter, we know that the hormones and other chemicals in our

blood are a powerful influence or even a control over our emotions or feelings. So I do not think we

can reduce Jesus' teaching to some kind of spiritual emotionalism. Clearly it is not about "private

religious experiences" when his teaching so bluntly attacks basic teachings.

1revd: *MSG* Over the long Maundy Thursday to Easter Tuesday 'weekend,' we had occasion to

visit with some of our grandchildren. They got chocolate rabbits and other candies in their Easter

baskets, along with colored eggs. The children who got into the sugar laden treats were simply

noisy, wild, and running about for about an hour. They were 'overstimulated' in their emotions; all

this was because of what was in their blood streams.

1revd: *MSG* It's worth noting that Mark, as a story-teller, performs an admirable service for folks

like me. Just in case us gentile types might misunderstand the point Jesus is making, Mark says,

bluntly: "In saying this, Jesus was calling all foods clean." This is another piece of evidence that

Mark's audience of listeners had to have included some gentiles, maybe even some Romans.

1revd: *MSG* Pouncycat, may the Lord keep her, wrote to me her conviction that there were

Romans in Mark's audience. She bought into one interpretive thread that puts Mark as a kind of

secretary or note taker for Peter. I'm not so sure of that fact, but I do think there may have been

Romans in Mark's varied audiences . . . before he wrote his gospel tale.

1revd: *MSG* In case you still miss the point, let me remind you that our Gracious God in

establishing the kosher rules for the Jewish people was not inventing a spiritual supremacy code of

diets. The dietary "laws" were given specifically to make the Jewish people into a single nation of

those who were set aside, devoted to the Lord. Other people may have had dietary preferences, but

the kosher rules aid a Jewish person in remembering their distinct, unique, special place in God's

"heart" as a people he considers his own, for a special purpose: to bring God's light on daily living

to the whole world.

1revd: *MSG* Though some have proposed it, this is not a distinction between the Noahaic code,

said to apply to all living humans, and the Mosaic code specifically applying to Jewish persons. In

fact, I know Jewish rabbis and lay folk, who are persons who acknowledge Jesus as Lord and

Messiah, who yet keep kosher. I put it to you that they rightly understand what Jesus is doing here

in this statement/ verdict.

1revd: *MSG* Remember that previous to the Great Flood it was considered wrong to eat the flesh

of any animal, not just wrong to eat human flesh, but the flesh of any animal. It seems that all the

humans up to the time of the Great Flood must have been strict "vegans."

1revd: *MSG* Our son, who used to have high blood pressure and be overweight and prone to

"pre-diabetes" was urged by his friends to try a strictly "vegan" diet. He has done so.

1revd: *MSG* We are amazed!

1revd: *MSG* No more high blood pressure. He is not overweight, and his doc doesn't consider

him "pre-diabetic" any longer. OTOH, when my wife visits his family, she says that the lack of

eggs, milk, cheese, fish, poultry, or animal meats is a tad wearing. She got very tired of lentils, rice,

beans, cookec with fruits and veggies. He looks very healthy, however, she reports.

1revd: *MSG* I do not know that I could give up the many different tastes I grew up with, just to

become healthier. A "vegan" diet does not guarantee we could live, like Methuselah, to 969 years!

1revd: *MSG* Any problems; questions; doubts?

joegabe11: *MSG* no

1revd: *MSG* OK

1revd: *MSG* "21 Evil thoughts come from the inside, from people's hearts. So do sexual sins,

stealing and murder. Adultery, 22 greed, hate and cheating come from people's hearts too. So do

desires that are not pure, and wanting what belongs to others. And so do telling lies about others and

being proud and being foolish. 23 All those evil things come from inside a person. They make him

'unclean.'" [NIRV]

1revd: *MSG* Some recent scholars argue that because this sort of statement or list can be found in

ROMANS and other epistles that therefore it is a composition of the earliest Christian communities.

Now, get this: THEREFORE this list is not something Jesus said. So, as I read it at my local public

library, because Saint Paul and other early writers have similar lists or statements, some modern

scholars say that in their modern opinion Jesus did not say such things.

1revd: *MSG* Pardon me for being simple-minded, if you will, I just don't buy it. Can you claim

that your idea of what Jesus was like and typically said can over rule and supplant what Mark in his

Gospel tale says Jesus is like and typically says? I am not able so to do. I just do not buy into their

argument / opinion.

1revd: *MSG* One significant feature of this list that suggests to me that whoever said it first was

well acquainted with the second great commandment. Sadly, my comment is anachronistic since it

comes from chapter 12, and I do apologize for taking it out of context. MARK 12:31 [Douay, etc.]

"And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other

commandment greater than these." where Jesus is quoting from LEVITICUS 19:18.

1revd: *MSG* Notice? Not a single item of Jesus' list is missing or omitted from what a Lutheran

would tend to call the second table of the law.

1revd: *MSG* That's a tad idiosyncratic, perhaps?

joegabe11: *MSG* just a little

joegabe11: *MSG* lol

1revd: *MSG* Well, OK. Here's what I'm promoting. All the TEN COMMANDS are words of the

Lord, and all are our duty to him. Remember, however, that he gave them to our Jewish ancestors in

the faith . . . because they asked him @ Mt. Sinai what would make for more peaceful, prosperous

living. Even so, Lutherans tend to lump Commandments 1 (No other Gods...) through 3 (Keeping

the sabbath...) as our duty to God. We tend to lump Commandments 4 (Honoring father and

mother...) through 10 (Not coveting...) as our duty to our neighbors. It's a catechetical device, a

propaedeutic exercise. So the list or statement of Jesus is far, far earlier than similar lists in

ROMANS. Anybody who has read the Tanakh can see implicit in it the same list, perhaps slightly

rearranged.

1revd: *MSG* That was a long comment; it surely would have "flooded" cookieart out of the room.

To be frank about it, such things are all that can come out of the heart (core) of sinful humans, for

that is what I read the scripture to mean when it says that the IMAGO DEI in us is corrupted and

foul as a result of sin. That discussion really will take us way off-topic!

1revd: *MSG* This was all I wrote back on 24 JNE 2011. It will have to do for today. Will you lead

us in prayer to close the bible study, joegabe11? Please.

joegabe11: *MSG* ok

joegabe11: *MSG* Dear Lord

joegabe11: *MSG* You have been good to us and we thank you for the wonderous gifts you have

given us

joegabe11: *MSG* we need to repay you for what you do for us

joegabe11: *MSG* and the only way we can do that

joegabe11: *MSG* is to proclaim your name and become a decuiple for you.

joegabe11: *MSG* Teach us how oh lord

joegabe11: *MSG* We ask this in your name

joegabe11: *MSG* Amen

1revd: *MSG* I will begin.

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:24-30 Bible Study for Christian Friendship chatroom, 1 JULY 2011, @

Talk City, revised for Joegabe1's Royal Family Coffee Shop chatroom on 20 APR 2012

1revd: *MSG* Let us begin today with prayer.

1revd: *MSG* ALMIGHTY God, whose Messiah has risen from the dead: GRANT that all

baptized believers, instructed by their teacher and by Christ's example, may be knit together in unity

by your Spirit; MAY we ever stand firm upon the one foundation, which is our LORD Messiah

Jesus, as also witnessed to in Mark's Gospel, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one

God, now and forever. AMEN.

1revd: *MSG* The text for our bible study today in the good news tale according to Mark is:

MARK 7:24-30.

1revd: *MSG* This is a story about Jesus speaking with a Greek / Gentile woman.

1revd: *MSG* "[24] And rising from thence he went into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon: and entering

into a house, he would that no man should know it, and he could not be hid. [25] For a woman as

soon as she heard of him, whose daughter had an unclean spirit, came in and fell down at his feet.

24 For the woman was a Gentile, a Syrophenician born. And she besought him that he would cast

forth the devil out of her daughter. [27] Who said to her: Suffer first the children to be filled: for it is

not good to take the bread of the children, and cast it to the dogs. [28] But she answered and said to

him: Yea, Lord; for the whelps also eat under the table of the crumbs of the children. [29] And he

said to her: For this saying go thy way, the devil is gone out of thy daughter. [30] And when she was

come into her house, she found the girl lying upon the bed, and that the devil was gone out."

[Douay-Rheims] I choose this version as it was a favorite of Pouncycat.

1revd: *MSG* It's worth noting that many early manuscripts include, in vv. 24, as this translation

does, "and Sidon." You will have to form your own judgment as to why some modern translations,

such as NIRV= New International Readers Version, omit the second place name.

1revd: *MSG* This is the first cameo Mark reports in which Jesus seeks anonymity, and does so

totally outside recognizably jewish communities. Many questions may arise. What's going on? Tyre

and Sidon are commercially important towns heavily influenced by Greek culture. Is Jesus afraid of

the Herodians and Pharisees at this stage in his ministry? Or is he still struggling with the question

of how far his "mandate" extends: "I was sent only to the lost of the children of Israel," as a later

gospel tale writer, MATTHEW, puts it. Or is he engaged in a kind of exploration away from Galilee

and Judea, to what end?

1revd: *MSG* One intriguing option is that Jesus simply found trying to be with his disciples and

teach in Galilee too much a hassle. Everyone seems to be after him after the feeding of the 5000.

Adversaries and the curious alike are bothering him and the Twelve.

1revd: *MSG* Scholars have puzzled about such things, and it's instructive to read [at your own

convenience] the responses they make, and the reasoning for the same. We will strive to stick

closely to exactly what Mark tells us in his cameo, while being aware that he puts it right after the

pericopes about "clean" and "unclean." Surely a Greek speaking woman counts as an unclean

Gentile, at that time inside Galilee and Judah? Mark also "brackets" it by tales of feeding crowds!

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* So, verse by verse, as is our custom, yes?

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* "24 Jesus went from there to a place near Tyre. He entered a house. He did not want

anyone to know where he was. But he could not keep it a secret." [NIRV] Tyre is a visibly (even

today -2011 - architectural ruins display a Greek style) Gentile town to the NW of Galilee, about a

day and a half's brisk walk from Capernaum, by the seaside. To say, "to the coasts of" is merely an

old fashioned way of saying two things at once. #1. It implies, "in the neighborhood of." #2. It

recognizes the fact that both towns are on the Mediterranean itself. The Phoenician seafarers made

these important towns of cultural seduction and heterodoxy for Jewish people since the time of

Jezebel. In terms of religion, both show themselves to archaeologists as foci of Canaanite paganism,

with temples to Heracles, Astarte, and other gods.

1revd: *MSG* My suspicion, along with that of some "study bibles" I've read at our local public

library, is that Jesus intended to avoid direct confrontation with those who so pestered him while in

Galilee. I've already written this? Yes? Here he might reasonably expect to avoid the Pharisees and

the scribes sent from Jerusalem. He is also outside the region of the Tetrarchy of Philip in what

today is Lebanon.

1revd: *MSG* Even so, after the feeding of the 5000, [a previous pericope = MARK 6:30-44], his

tendency is to avoid Galilee, and the crowds seeking him for the wrong reasons. Here, while

seeking privacy, as soon as anyone knows he is there, a local woman shows up with a request.

1revd: *MSG* "25 Soon a woman heard about him. An evil spirit controlled her little daughter. The

woman came to Jesus and fell at his feet. 26 She was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged

Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter." [NIRV] Note that some early manuscripts call the

spirit controlling her little girl, "unclean." IMO, that is a preferred reading, since we moderns tend

to moralizations when we hear or read the word, "evil." In like fashion, I prefer the term,

"controlled," rather than the term, "possessed," as there is, to my mind, too much unsavory movie

and TV attention given to "demon possession." I like the choice Douay-Rheims gives, using a

simple, direct, "had." It doesn't leave the girl off the hook - so to say - for it is she who HAD (vv.

25) the "unclean spirit."

1revd: *MSG* So far, so good?

1revd: *MSG* Whoops! Sorry, except for our risen Savior, and the coffeebot, I appear to be alone

here.

coffeebot: *MSG* 1revd: What happened? There is no need to apologize. Then what for?

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* All Mark tells us is that she begged Jesus to cast the demon out of her girl. She does

not yet have a voice! Now watch this next interchange; it's quite instructive. She turns out to speak

Koin? Greek. [BTW, her lineage is probably mentioned (a) to indicate she is not from Libyia -

which also had a Phoenician "colony," and (b) to show she is thoroughly not Jewish. Just my

opinion!]

1revd: *MSG* Jesus is abrupt, one may say, crude, and rude. Remember that the function of dogs at

that time was nothing more exalted than garbage collection. Offal was typically the main diet of

such mangy dogs as were tolerated in areas Jesus frequented around Nazareth and Capernaum.

1revd: *MSG* "27 "First let the children eat all they want," he told her. "It is not right to take the

children's bread and throw it to their dogs."" [NIRV]

1revd: *MSG* Here, "the children" references, I suspect, perhaps the "lost" children of the house of

Israel. N.B. This is not a nation-state as we think of the country presently, but rather the children a

specific forefather. The "children" are not mature, so likewise "their dogs" are not mature - "little

dogs," whelps, or pet puppies we might say today. A mature dog would be turned out of the

household to find its food on its own, especially the household of a day laborer.

1revd: *MSG* Jesus' point here? Is he striving to reflect the attitude with which he grew up about

"unclean" Gentiles? Is he purposefully being "overbearingly rude" as a kind of test to see if the

pagan woman will respond in kind? Or, perhaps, he is simply making a point that he personally

held: the good news of God's personal interest and grace was news to be given first to the Jews? Yet

again, was Jesus watching alertly to discover what sort of faith this total "outsider" could possibly

have? AND, there may be yet other options.

1revd: *MSG* Whichever response you tend to choose, note now the woman's response. She buys

into Jesus' assessment that the "lost" children of Israel have percedence over all other folk! Wow!

Would you or I do so as well?

1revd: *MSG* "28 "Yes, Lord," she replied. "But even the dogs under the table eat the children's

crumbs."" [NIRV] Allow me to make a special note here. This is the single spot in Mark's entire

gospel tale in which, in the original Koin? Greek, Jesus is given the title: "Kyrios" = Lord or

Master. This is something one would not expect out of a pagan Syro-Phoenician at all! Modern

translations which reduce it to a polite, "Yes, Sir," are, IMO, missing the point Mark is making.

1revd: *MSG* Is this comment too oblique?

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* Not only does the woman perceive Jesus' emphasis on "Jews first, Gentiles later,"

she also subordinates herself, and her daughter, and her request for healing and health to the whim

of the Lord, or Master. Let me put it this way, "If only the Master of the Household would see fit to

let us dogs lick up the crumbs, . . ."

1revd: *MSG* Jesus answers, "29 Then he told her, "That was a good reply. You may go. The

demon has left your daughter."" The NIV 1984 puts it slightly differently: "29 Then he told her,

"For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."" I prefer, once again to avoid

terms like "good" that can be construed moralistically. Notice well: Not a single word about "faith."

Got that? It's important! Perhaps you've also heard far too many sermons that invent what this or

that character was thinking. Such sermons are a nuisance, IMO. Stick strictly, or as closely as

possible, to what Mark actually says in his gospel tale.

1revd: *MSG* I take it that the woman simply recognized who Jesus was, and threw herself, her

daughter, and her request on his mercy. It's a conclusion of the credulous, a derived conclusion at

that, to say Jesus recognized her faith; the inadequate and twisted faith of a foreigner, a pagan, and

someone under stress with worry for her daughter. Mark does not ask us to invent faith where he

does not mention it. In esse, Mark has Jesus recognize in this auslander a characteristic the LORD

Almighty likes: witness Abraham dickering with God over how many people need to believe in

order to save the town where his nephew Lot resides.

1revd: *MSG* Do we do as well? Do we in the churches know 'in our bones,' so to write it, that our

Risen Savior has other kettles of fish to cook, not least all the people who are direct descendents of

Abraham?

1revd: *MSG* I put it to you that just as Jesus could say to people who relied on the fact that

Abraham was their forefather in the faith, so Jesus might say to people who worship regularly,

support their local church or congregation, and show all the other signs baptized believers are

expected in scripture to show, never the less - - - God can raise up for himself out of stained glass

and bricks and mortar and plaster CHILDREN who will DO what is pleasing to him, because they

recognize who he is - - - the way this woman seems simply to recognize Jesus for who it is he is.

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* This cameo concludes with Mark reporting to us in his audience. The woman goes

home, finds her child, her daughter, yet in bed, but the unclean spirit gone. Think of that!

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* "30 So she went home and found her child lying on the bed. And the demon was

gone." [NIRV] This only reminds me of what we know of the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit

can "act at a distance," can "act anachronistically," and we can neither see it at work nor guess

whence it goes or from whither it comes. The Spirit blows as it wills, always in accord with the

mind of the Messiah!

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* That concludes the bible study for today::: 20 APR 2012

1revd: *MSG* Let us pray.

1revd: *MSG* LORD Messiah Jesus, be with us in these troubled times and help us to keep our

minds focused on you and your joyous resurrection. Make us always glad and thankful for what you

accomplish on our behalf, as we keep in mind our sisters and brothers in the faith who are in need

of your help and healing. Give us the insight and recognition of the Syro-Phoenician Woman of

long ago, and the power to keep ourselves meek and humble in your presence as we ask for favors.

We ask all this Lord Jesus in your name and for your sake. AMEN.

1revd: *MSG* . . . . . . . . . . . . .

1revd: *MSG* I hope joegabe finds this and considers it worth posting.

1revd: *MSG* I must leave.

1revd: *MSG* Maybe the chat room will function "normally" next week?

1revd: *PART* Left room.

312.1

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:31-37

1revd: *MSG* there it is

joegabe1: *MSG* and we shall begin

1revd: *MSG* good

joegabe1: *MSG* Dear Lord

joegabe1: *MSG* Hear our prayer as we pray for guidance for our teacher

joegabe1: *MSG* and for his health

joegabe1: *MSG* and also for health and protection of the following people

joegabe1: *MSG* kricket and zeke who we dont know how they are luna that just got out of

hospital

joegabe1: *MSG* pks father who is still on oxygen and for all the people who are having medical

ailments

joegabe1: *MSG* also lift up pk who is having bad axiety problems and needs love and care from

you

joegabe1: *MSG* we ask all of this from you through

joegabe1: *MSG* your son jesus

joegabe1: *MSG* amen

joegabe1: *MSG* Jesus Heals a Deaf and Mute Man

joegabe1: *MSG* 31 Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea

of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis.[a] 32 There some people brought to him a man who

was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged Jesus to place his hand on him.

joegabe1: *MSG*

joegabe1: *MSG* 33 After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the

man???s ears. Then he spit and touched the man???s tongue. 34 He looked up to heaven and with a

deep sigh said to him, ???Ephphatha!??? (which means ???Be opened!???). 35 At this, the man???s

ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly.

joegabe1: *MSG* 36 Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more

they kept talking about it. 37 People were overwhelmed with amazement. ???He has done

everything well,??? they said. ???He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak.???

1revd: *MSG* neat, TY

joegabe1: *MSG* yw

1revd: *MSG* we still agree that "???" stands for quotation marks?

joegabe1: *MSG* ye

joegabe1: *MSG* yes

1revd: *MSG* grand

1revd: *MSG* MARK 7:31-37 Bible Study for Christian Friendship chatroom, 8 JULY 2011, @

Talk City, revised and edited for Royal Family Coffee Chat on FRI., 27 APR 2012

1revd: *MSG* If you allow some comments about the social context, ... Today's bible study gives

us a unique insight into the way Jesus dealt with politics and political pressure, whether it came

from the "church" or the "state." Those terms, so familiar to us today, do not match anything going

on during his era. In many ways the Herods were puppets of the Roman overlords, and they had

their collaborators: the Saducees of the priestly and scribal authorities of the temple cult.

1revd: *MSG* When the text says "so and so from the temple, or "from Jerusalem," it usually infers

the latter. When it gives place names, or names a Herodian king, or his domain, it's usually inferring

a political matter. This is a broad, whitewash approach, I know. Let me reiterate the thought for the

USA readers that "state" or "church" were not considered to be in conflict, indeed it was expected in

that era that they worked "hand in glove" a totally normal and ordinary state of affairs.

1revd: *MSG* In our most recent cameo a Syro-Phoenician woman's daughter was healed by Jesus

in non-Jewish, pagan territory, and the faith, as such, of the woman or her daughter are NOT

mentioned. Think of that! Now Jesus continues his travels in pagan, formerly

Phillistine/Phoenician, territory. He goes further north along the coast to Sidon. It's about a twentyfive

mile hike, so if he just ambled along in a determined "gonna get there" fashion it may have

taken about two and a fraction days.

1revd: *MSG* About half way there he'd have passed Zarephath, where Elijah had fled and had

been fed by a widow. When Jesus reaches Sidon, he would have been far north of the original limits

of the Twelve Tribes' territory. The best guesses of the archaeologists put the northerly edge of the

Tribe of Asher just a tad north of Tyre, at the Litani River along the coastal plain, and likewise the

northerly edge of more inward or easterly to Asher's range the Tribe of Naphtali, keeping the Litani

in mind. The territory (Tetrarchy) of Herod Antipas extends no where near that far north.

1revd: *MSG* Jesus is now totally "outside." He is not in Jewish territory in any sense of the word.

Furthermore, he doesn't seem upset by any thought that he "could become unclean" by being so far

from Jewish territory.

1revd: *MSG* So Jesus goes to Sidon. Why? Does he do or say anything there? What happens that

he would turn around, and go back toward Jewish settlements?

1revd: *MSG* Any ideas or guesses? joegabe1: *MSG* no

1revd: *MSG* me neither

1revd: *MSG* Follow the rule of knowing only what this gospel author tells us!

1revd: *MSG* We have no idea. Mark tells us nothing. Thus from the point of view of Mark's tale,

we know only that Jesus wandered. Mark does not even tell us, except for such hints, what Jesus

was up to.

1revd: *MSG* Now the specifically peculiar part: "31 Then Jesus left the area of Tyre and went

through Sidon. He went down to the Sea of Galilee and into the area known as the Ten Cities."

[NIRV]

1revd: *MSG* If Jesus is headed out, away from Galilee, (and that is a huge assumption) if you go

north to or "through" Sidon, it's an incredible leap of imagination for anyone knowing the

geography of the Holy Land to imagine you then are going "down" to the Sea of Galilee into the

easterly shore area called the "Decapolis," or "Ten Towns" area south of the realm/territory

(tetrarchy) of Philip. IMO, he's avoiding confrontations of a "political sort."

1revd: *MSG* Jesus goes north into pagan territory, further north out of Tyre, and then skirts

around Herod's territory to get to the "Ten Towns" (again pagan) area.

1revd: *MSG* Did Jesus want to wander the so-called "King's Highway?" Did he want to see

Mount Hermon, at the northerly fringe of the original Twelve Tribes' range? How serious was he

about avoiding a confrontation with Herod Antipas? Did the scribes and Pharisees who kept

pestering him in Galilee hunt for him even outside Jewish territory?

1revd: *MSG* Lots of questions, I know. They're in many of the commentaries.

1revd: *MSG* As I've already written, we have NO idea. Mark tells us nothing. Thus from the point

of view of Mark's tale, we know only that Jesus wandered. Mark does not even tell us, except for

such hints, what Jesus was up to. From the viewpoint of MARK, what's important is "Jesus

wandered."

1revd: *MSG* doubts, questions, problems?

joegabe1: *MSG* no

1revd: *MSG* so far, so good

1revd: *MSG* IMO, This wandering comes to a conclusion in the region of the "Ten Cities," (if

you can call them cities). Following my suggested division, I put it to you that Mark is saying that,

at this time in his ministry, Jesus is avoiding political confrontations. Whether with what WE would

call the "state" or what WE would call the "church."

1revd: *MSG* Continuing, then, as we have in the past, verse by verse. "32 There some people

brought a man to him. The man was deaf and could hardly speak. They begged Jesus to place his

hand on him." [NIRV] This seems to be a standard "set up" or introduction by Mark to another

healing episode. Yes?

1revd: *MSG* - - -

1revd: *MSG* [32] And they bring to him one deaf and dumb; and they besought him that he

would lay his hand upon him. [33] And taking him from the multitude apart, he put his fingers into

his ears, and spitting, he touched his tongue: [34] And looking up to heaven, he groaned, and said to

him: Ephpheta, which is, Be thou opened. [35] And immediately his ears were opened, and the

string of his tongue was loosed, and he spoke right. [36] And he charged them that they should tell

no man. But the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal did they publish it. [37] And

so much the more did they wonder, saying: He hath done all things well; he hath made both the deaf

to hear, and the dumb to speak." [Douay-Rheims version] Again, I choose this version because it

was a favorite of Pouncycat (if a tad old fashioned). If you find the "thee, thy, thou, thine" a tad

thick English, at bible gateway dot com are several, more modern, translations.

1revd: *MSG* - - -

joegabe1: *MSG* 1revd

1revd: *MSG* I'm here

joegabe1: *MSG* with all due respects may i make a sugestion if i may ok

1revd: *MSG* sure

joegabe1: *MSG* trim the pastes shorter cause talkcity has flood control and that much pasted

1revd: *MSG* ack

1revd: *MSG* sorry

joegabe1: *MSG* talkcitry kicks and gags for that

1revd: *MSG* i do forget that

joegabe1: *MSG* talkcity does

1revd: *MSG* my apologies

joegabe1: *MSG* may i sugest a 6 line limit

1revd: *MSG* i do not want to interfere with their rules

1revd: *MSG* OK

joegabe1: *MSG* sorry carry on

1revd: *MSG* I'll try to remember "six (6) lines"

1revd: *MSG* I pray you do not believe I'm trying to be troublesome; frankly, I forget.

joegabe1: *MSG* i know lol

1revd: *MSG* It's hard to remember just what I'm doing even, I get so wrapped up in excitement

over what Jesus says or does.

1revd: *MSG* I apologize.

joegabe1: *MSG* tis ok

1revd: *MSG* TY TY, you are always so kind and understanding

1revd: *MSG* In our most recent cameo a Syro-Phoenician woman's daughter was healed by Jesus

in non-Jewish, pagan territory, and the faith, as such, of the woman or her daughter are NOT

mentioned. Think of that!

1revd: *MSG* Jesus functions the same way whether in Jewish or pagan territory! Jesus heals

whether people show signs of faith in God, and specifically the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,

or not. Jesus responds to requests whether people know the Law of Moses or not, obey the Law of

Moses or not!

1revd: *MSG* Now Jesus continues his travels in pagan, formerly Phillistine/Phoenician, territory.

He goes further north along the coast to Sidon. It's about a twenty-five mile hike, so if he just

ambled along in a determined "gonna get there" fashion it may have taken about two and a fraction

days.

1revd: *MSG* About half way there he'd have passed Zarephath, where Elijah had fled and had

been fed by a widow. When Jesus reaches Sidon, he would have been far north of the original limits

of the Twelve Tribes' territory.

1revd: *MSG* Far from the temple; far from Herod; totally away from potential hassles, away from

confrontations.

1revd: *MSG* The best guesses of the archaeologists put the northerly edge of the Tribe of Asher

just a tad north of Tyre, at the Litani River along the coastal plain, and likewise the northerly edge

of more inward or easterly to Asher's range the Tribe of Naphtali, keeping the Litani in mind. The

territory (Tetrarchy) of Herod Antipas extends no where near that far north.

1revd: *MSG* So, to rehearse it again::: Jesus goes to Sidon. Why? Does he do or say anything

there? What happens that he would turn around, and go back toward Jewish settlements?

1revd: *MSG* And then again::: We have no idea. Mark tells us nothing. Thus from the point of

view of Mark's tale, we know only that Jesus wandered. Mark does not even tell us, except for such

hints, what Jesus was up to.

1revd: *MSG* So, in this arena on pagan territory, "33 Jesus took the man to one side, away from

the crowd. He put his fingers into the man's ears. Then he spit and touched the man's tongue."

[NIRV], or better "[33] And taking him from the multitude apart, he put his fingers into his ears, and

spitting, he touched his tongue:" [Douay-Rheims] to avoid the strange English "he spit."

1revd: *MSG* Ah, ha! Says a 21st Century skeptic. The first use of a transfer of bodily fluids in

healing. Come, come, dear soul. It's just a first century way to say Jesus "intervened personally."

Spitting at or on people even today is a way of showing disgust and declaring how inconsequential

a person is. That's not it either. Just take the tale the way Mark provides it to you. The "spit" was

related to the "healing." 'nuf sed?

1revd: *MSG* "34 Jesus looked up to heaven. With a deep sigh, he said to the man, "Ephphatha!"

That means "Be opened!" " [NIRV] Here again, MARK preserves the original Aramaic,

transliterated into Koin? Greek.

1revd: *MSG* This is one of the ordinary languages of the Holy Land in the first century. It's

probably the language Jesus and his disciples commonly spoke, especially if they wished to

converse with anyone in the marketplace. Notice that Jesus looked at the sky again, as he did when

giving thanks in the cameo about feeding the five thousand. Notice also that Mark carefully tells the

"meaning" of the mismash sounding Greek for his partially Gentile audience.

1revd: *MSG* "35 The man's ears were opened. His tongue was freed up, and he began to speak

clearly." [NIRV] Did we expect anything less? Are we getting into the mind-set of a first century

audience? Do we hear the wonder and amazement of Mark's first audiences?

1revd: *MSG* It always causes me to marvel! Invariably, I am amazed simply to hear it read in a

worship service. It reminds me of how Jesus (God) works, even today!

1revd: *MSG* "36 Jesus ordered the people not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more

they kept talking about it." [NIRV] Notice the transition? Previously, when Jesus told folks to keep

quiet about a healing [MARK 1:44] he was in a Jewish community where people might begin to get

"messianic" ideas prematurely.

1revd: *MSG* Now he's in a, as I've called it, "mixed bag," area. Now even here, what he does gets

reported, and Jewish folk may begin to get the wrong ideas. What Jesus is actually doing, if one

takes a few moments to remember and ponder it, is what God promised to do through the prophet

Isaiah.

1revd: *MSG* "5 Then the eyes of those who are blind will be opened. The ears of those who can't

hear will be unplugged. 6 Those who can't walk will leap like a deer. And those who can't speak will

shout with joy. Water will pour out in dry places. Streams will flow in the desert." [NIRV - IS 35:5-

6]

1revd: *MSG* Remember the very first thing Mark tells us that Jesus has to say? Repent and

believe the good news! The kingdom of God is breaking into this world through me, and it is as

close to you as your own right hand. You don't have to wait until you die to go to heaven! Heaven is

where God rules, and it is here and now!

1revd: *MSG* Isaiah (a neat poem, IMO) tells what it will be like when God comes personally to

redeem his people. Got the idea? In this Jewish fellow, Jesus of Nazareth, God is inaugurated his

long awaited keeping of the promise to all peoples everywhere. From my POV, this is yet one more

sign that Mark is doing a very credible job of unfolding his opening verse or title. This Jesus is

God's Messiah for the whole of creation, for all peoples on the earth.

1revd: *MSG* "37 People were really amazed. "He has done everything well," they said. "He even

makes deaf people able to hear. And he makes those who can't speak able to talk." " [NIRV] When

Mark says "people," remember that in this locale he purposefully includes Gentiles. These are folks

who probably were not familiar with the prophesy of Isaiah. They would have heard, perhaps, of

their Jewish neighbors' desire for the Jewish messiah to come, as perhaps a political figure.

1revd: *MSG* This episode would tend, I put it to you, to cause a Gentile to rethink what he or she

knew of Jewish messianic hopes. It would do so in just as powerful a way that it would trigger a

Jewish person's recollection of what Isaiah had said and written. Should we likewise re-assess what

we think of what God's messiah is like?

1revd: *MSG* Ha! My ancestors in the British Isles were painting themselves blue and robbing

cows and sheep and women from other folks across the border. My family was 100% pagan. Yet

they came to understand that the Jewish messiah ... God's Messiah ... was coming with good news

for them.

1revd: *MSG* Do we, who presume to know this story well, consider what it means for us in North

America to know that Jesus comes among us today (through the working of the Holy Spirit) to heal

and help not just "religious" people of our sort, but all people everywhere?

1revd: *MSG* There's something to ponder until next time. The session's bible study ends here,

today. I pray it's enough to think about!

1revd: *MSG* Joegabe, will you please lead us in a closing prayer?

joegabe1: *MSG* ok

joegabe1: *MSG* Dear heavenly father

joegabe1: *MSG* We give you thanks for all you do for us

joegabe1: *MSG* and as we go toward another week

joegabe1: *MSG* please keep us safe and healthy and

joegabe1: *MSG* keep us grateful for all we got and do not let us yearn

joegabe1: *MSG* for what we do not deserve

joegabe: *JOIN* Entered room.

coffeebot: *MSG* joegabe Welcome to The Coffee Shop, we are glad you could come.

coffeebot: *MSG* 4Administrator: joegabe. Type !x to view coffeebot's Control Panel.

joegabe: *MSG* am i here

1revd: *MSG* wb joegabe

joegabe: *MSG* ty

joegabe: *MSG* what line i finish at

1revd: *MSG* "for what we do not deserve"

joegabe1: we ask this in jesus holy name

joegabe1: amen

-- 

Allow me to encourage you to read the good news according to Mark aloud. I
suggest this is most easily done with two or more persons reading the text. It
allows others to focus on listening, and hearing the Holy Spirit speak through

the living word of the text. As Saint Paul writes, faith comes through hearing. 

 
The Rev'd R E LANGFORD JR, FAPC, ELCA pastor  ! retired !
       39.58°N by 75.98°W

My clarity of conscience and my purity of heart are undisputed

evidence that my memory is failing me.        

`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸..·´¯`·...¸ ><(((((º> `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((º> `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.· ><((º>