Already mature for ERP/CRM devolpment.

[Marcello Dias]

Hi Everybody,

I think I was one of the more excited some years ago, I thought Dart to be

the last language I would have to learn before retirement.

Unfortunatelly since them I had no time to study, until this year when I left my old Job.

But In almost 7 months I had not seen one single job that asked for someone with experience in Dart in Brazil.

When I look for a language to develop ERP/CRM stuff the ,first thing I want to know if it supports SQL Databases

,specially Oracle,Sql Server and MySql.

In these area Dart seems not to have evoluted anything since 2013.

I means Dart architecture really shines,I really think its the Ideal language to develop RIA AND SOA applications.

One single language that can be use both server side and in the Browser,and without the mess of JavaScript.

But without something like ADO.NET or JDBC it will never be a mainstream language,ande please don´t come with that

old bla bla,bla that being mainstream is not important,unless you don´t have mouths to feed in your house.

Regards,

Marcello

[Günter Zöchbauer]

AFAIK MySql and Postgresql support is fine, I also think I saw some Oracle package but haven't tried it myself yet.
I also think good database support is important.
It seems currently most such projects use other languages on the server,because there are only few Dart questions about RDMS.
In my opinion this low demand is the reason why Dart hasn't more to offer yet.
I expect that more demand in the future will lead to more packages.

[Marcello Dias]

>>It seems currently most such projects use other languages on the server,because there are only few Dart questions about RDMS.

If people realize that they will have to use another language in the server side,they won´t even give dart a try.

>>In my opinion this low demand is the reason why Dart hasn't more to offer yet.

I´m sure about that.

I think every developer in Dart is doing a good and fast job,but that is not enough.

I mean,at least in my opinion the guys who pay the bills(Larry Page and Sergey Brin), to be more clear, should open their

wallets and say,hey it is Google name ,If it has to be,It has to be the number one.

Lets put two more guys to work in the IDE,three guys to work 8 hours a day in the database area,and so on.

Lets put someone to write samples and applications written in Dart.

Dart is better because it is newer,it does not have to be backward compatible with nothing,it learned with errors of other

companies.

But if Google wants to be respected in a Area that were former dominated by Microsoft,they must act like they.

In 5 years .NET was a whole framework,they spent every cent in it.

Will be an army developing systems integrated with google tools,google Adwords and so on,every cent will come back fast if you´re

generous enough.

Regards,

Marcello Dias

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[Jan Mostert]

I was looking for the exact same things earlier this week, have a CRM to build, the only decent SQL plugin I could find was SQLjockey and it's not even feature complete, bugs have been open for over a year.
I don't like dealing with JS especially in the backend, so NodeJS is out of the question, eventually decided to stick to Java for the backend since it has tried and trusted database capabilities as well as some nice tools to map DB to objects.
Would really love to start using Dart in the backend as well, Java's verbosity is getting on my nerves a bit.

[Joao Pedrosa]

Hi,

Database access is a little complicated for Dart because of things like these:

* Generic interfaces tend to be less perfect. Restricting a common interface to features that

all databases support tends to simplify it too much and we may lose some of the innovative

features of each database system.

* Some of the best database bindings have native interfaces. They are written in either C or

C++, so to support them you may have to ship binaries that you don't fully trust and to have

to develop a building toolset for them to get new versions ready. Consider that Dart is used

for multi-platform programming and the challenges there only increase. On Windows there is

the VC++ and the MinGW as used by open source projects, for instance.

* Async programming demands that your algorithms only do a little work at a time so that

other functions may get called as well. My opinion is that this works against trying to do too

much in code and puts us more in the business of glue code scripting languages that only

do some data munging between connections.

* Standard database systems that worked well in a time of client-server network have lost

some of their advantages in these days of cloud storage. Companies like Google have

developed their systems around a different kind of database that exposes the key/value

pairs to the APIs directly.

We all mean well to Dart. A new year is just starting out. And with it, we renew our hopes 

that Dart will grow.

For the moment, Dart may be considered a language for perhaps thousands to tens of

thousands of developers. I caught a reference to this market scale in one of the videos of

the Dart developers. But it could grow further.

For a dynamic language to prosper, it needs the runtime, the VM, to always be present and

running code. That is how the code is really tested and developed. Since we don't always

have a compiler with dynamic languages. But the Dart runtime lost some steam when it

was de-emphasized for Chrome. The alternative to running code that is modified at real-

time by the pub server is actually good for testing the code on different browsers as it is

developed, but this makes the process a little more different and demanding. It makes Dart

a little more serious than just as a scripting language. And that is a price that is paid by its

market share as well.

When considering whether to use Dart or alternatives like TypeScript, I'm sure that even

the Dart developers themselves, and their friends, have a hard time deciding. More popular

alternatives have the advantage of bigger communities which is an attraction of their own.

Coming up with half-measure like compiling Dart code into a TypeScript intermediary step

also proves the luring power of the latter.

I've recently started experimenting with another language called Swift for the command-line

and server environments, and Swift puts the compiler front and center. It is pretty good 

overall. But sometimes the errors can be quite opaque and as we are developing low level

things, the error message may point to slightly different things which can be quite puzzling

at times. With Swift I also have to use tools like "lldb" to get stack-traces when things go

wrong and I even used "strace" once to see what system calls the program was making.

The advantage is that Swift allows for calling into C directly, so people can get database

bindings pretty quickly on their own.

Higher level languages like Dart that check for every misstep and point us in the right

direction when an error occurs have their place. As Dart acquires more statically typedness

let's hope that Dart will keep improving in other areas as well. I hope that projects like

Fletch and Flutter will catch on. I could see myself using both of those. :-)

Cheers,

Joao

[Marcello Dias]

>>* Generic interfaces tend to be less perfect. Restricting a common interface to features that

>>all databases support tends to simplify it too much and we may lose some of the innovative

>>features of each database system.

That was never a problem to ADO.NET,JDBC ,DATASNAP ,you have to have different very specialized code that implements a given

interface for every bank,those 5 programmers mr.Page have to hire for 2016.

>>* Standard database systems that worked well in a time of client-server network have lost

>>some of their advantages in these days of cloud storage. Companies like Google have

>>developed their systems around a different kind of database that exposes the key/value

>>pairs to the APIs directly.

RDBMS´S alive and kicking,I don´t care Google concentrate in the Stuff they will use themselves for running their business,those

other 5 guys can implement very good SQL support,There is nothing better than SQL to write ERP systems.

>>When considering whether to use Dart or alternatives like TypeScript, I'm sure that even

>>the Dart developers themselves, and their friends, have a hard time deciding. More popular

>>alternatives have the advantage of bigger communities which is an attraction of their own.

>>Coming up with half-measure like compiling Dart code into a TypeScript intermediary step

>>also proves the luring power of the latter.

By design Dart is better than TypeScript,C#,JAVA and Anything else I have ever knew or worked with,But i need a product in a package,something that I can use everywhere and now,and if Google does not put resources enough in that in 2016,they you´ll lost an historic opotunity of making history,just that.

I´ve evaluated TypeScript,Sencha ExtJS,have already worked in projects with Java,C#,Delphi.

The only language that have seduced m.e for a new project was DART.

But I´m starting to think that I believe more in Dart than Google, which is not good.

Marcello

[Marcello Dias]

All I need for 2016 is a free IDE that makes Visual Studio looks like a toy.
Something better than ADO.NET

Thousands of applications written in Dart to bust our productivity.

Millions of jobs.

Am I asking for too much?

[Jan Mostert]

@Joao, I'm no JDBC guru, but it sounds like your description is trying to over-engineer it?

From the async point of view, all you really need is pool of isolates that can be reused, then that will take care of the async issue - fire a query into the pool, the program will continue, once a result is received, the isolate will do the callback.

With regards to the driver, Google already offers Cloud SQL which is basically MySQL, they wouldn't have done it of there was no demand for it - a good place to start would be to support at least Cloud SQL/MySQL and then the community can help add missing Postgres / MSSQL / Oracle features as needed. That to me sounds like a business case.

Speaking to NodeJS guys, they are intetsted in using Dart, but Dart can't offer them some reliable basics such as Redis, Mongo, Cassandra, Neo4j, SQL, CouchDB other than unmaintained packages or completely abandoned packages or no packages at all.

For Dart to be usable for real work, it needs those, otherwise it will remain as just another transpiler to JS.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

When I look at the issues Angular2 developers ask about on StackOverflow getting their projects set up properly it shouldn't take long until they start looking for alternatives.
Most of these issues just don't apply to Dart.
Just a few are mentioned here http://antonmoiseev.com/2015/12/22/compare-ts-and-dart-angular2-beta0-upgrades/
Dart has a bright future, the missing parts will become available eventually.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Bigger teams have disadvantages. Efficiency goes down and the results tend to be bloated.
This is why for example Microsoft choose to ensure the Silverlight team stays small, because they wanted a simple sleek API and a memory efficient runtime.
I think Google and the Dart team are doing great. I also wish we had everything and that immediately, but that's not how software projects work.

[Eduardo Teixeira]

Dart already has support for postgresql.

[Jan Mostert]

@Eduardo, that's good to know, is the Postgres driver something you'd use in production?

@Gunter, I started playing with Angular Dart 2 yesterday, it's actually very decent!
Looking at the amount of code I write for doing DOM manipulation, the new Angular Dart looks like it will save me a lot of time.
Will wait patiently for the missing DB gaps to fill :-)

[Eduardo Teixeira]

I'm already using the postgresql driver for dart in production for some Redstone internal low traffic apps...

It's working but I have no benchmarked or load tested it yet...

[Marcello Dias]

>>Bigger teams have disadvantages. Efficiency goes down and the results tend to be bloated.

>>his is why for example Microsoft choose to ensure the Silverlight team stays small, because they wanted a simple sleek API and a >>memory efficient runtime.

My feeling is that the database area in Dart is a team of nobody.
That´s what I´m complaining about.
I can live with a not state of the art IDE,without a report generator,but not without Oracle,Sql Server,Maria Db and DB2 drivers.

And In that area they must be perfect without bugs.

One developer for each one would not be much,this is just my opinion.

And also increasing the number of developers right now would be a sign of google that Dart is still his best horse for the race.

At least for what I read here and there the decision of not implementing a Dart VM was taken as a sign of weakness by many developers.

I wish one day in the future this decision will be canceled and the initial plan will be followed.

>>I think Google and the Dart team are doing great. I also wish we had everything and that immediately, but that's not how software projects >>work.

So do I,these guys are genious and work like the lumpa lumpas,I just think they should be more.

Also Polymer is another area that Google is kicking Microsoft and everybody asses.

[Marcello Dias]

In the U.S.A the names are oompa loompas.

[Anders Holmgren]

I think googles motivation to fund dart development is primarily about making its own product teams more productive. That's quite different to Microsoft who traditionally sells products such as vs as well as wanting to attract developers to develop for Windows etc.

Consequently I believe the dart team is very internally focussed. I get the impression that dart is used mostly on the client within Google with no significant use of dart on the server by any of the Google product teams.
Hopefully that will change at some point and there will be a greater push for dart on the server. Would obviously help a lot if Google ads decided to use dart in the server

[Marcello Dias]

>>Consequently I believe the dart team is very internally focussed. I get the impression that dart is used mostly on the client within Google >>with no significant use of dart on the server by any of the Google product teams.

>>Hopefully that will change at some point and there will be a greater push for dart on the server. Would obviously help a lot if Google ads >>decided to use dart in the server.

Unfortunatelly I totally agree with you.

[Marcello Dias]

It seems that SQL Servers is something that Google really don´t cares about.

Things like BigData,NOSql,MongoDb will come first .

But the world is not made of only search engines,somebody will still have to take

care of PayRoll,financial ,etc.

And I don´t think somebody will beat SQL Servers in this era,at least before I Die.

I liked the Idea of Saas and Ria,but it seems I´ll have to look somewhere else.

 

[Allan MacDonald]

>>It seems that SQL Servers is something that Google really don´t cares about.

Have you looked at Vitess?

[Marcello Dias]

>>For Dart to be usable for real work, it needs those, otherwise it will remain as just another transpiler to JS.

Unfortunatelly that is the world think about Dart right now.

And the world really does not need that,for only this they had another tools.

I expected some years ago that in 2016 we would have a killer product,easy to use with every RDBMS ,millions of users,a JVM running DART code natively,a state of the art GUI.

I think Google is not being Google with Dart right now,just it.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Ok, so we need to stalk the youtoube team to port their servers to Dart ;-)

[Marcello Dias]

>>Ok, so we need to stalk the youtoube team to port their servers to Dart ;-)

As far As I know,Youtube only uses MYSQL because it was not originally

made by google,If they rewrite it they probably will not use SQL at all.

[Marcello Dias]

This was done with Dart Client and Server.

http://www.centryl.com/

Starting to feel happier.

They could be more specific in what thecnologies were used.

Polymer,Mysql?

[Eduardo Teixeira Dias]

From their page:

http://www.centryl.com/

Platform

Hosting

VPS, Cloud technology

Linux based

Centryl core 2.0+

Platform - Dart (Google)

Database - PostgreSQL

Е - commerce

Server - Dart (Google)

Client - HTML5/CSS3/JavaScript

POS - terminal

Server - Dart (Google)

Client - HTML5/CSS3/Dart

Saudações,

Eduardo Teixeira Dias

------------------------------------------

Tendencies Consultoria Ltda.

Tel: 11 3828-1281

Cel: 11 9 9246-4192

[Marcello Dias]

Up to now ,I haven't see anybody saying I did this using Only Dart and Polymer,but that day is coming.

[Greg Lowe]

The postgresql driver performs well in the techempower benchmarks. Especially the multiple queries benchmark, probably because it is async. But still lots of low hanging fruit for further performance improvement.

[EDUARDO KAISER]

2022 and we don't have any packages to work with mssql, stored procedures... I really want to use dart web api, but this is getting too boring..

My dart web api is still doing communications with my C# web api to get mssql and getting logged user from request to read active directory information. The applications I develop are for internal use, within a domain, and dart lacks these features.