Dart is not only a client side language.

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

Hi,

Iḿ very happy with all these new language features,and also the cases showed at DartConf day 1.

But this new slogan "Dart is a client side language", seems not to be accurate and not honest with

people that spend their time and energy building Dart server side frameworks.

Iḿ myself not interested in Dart, if Google suddenly says We dont recommend Dart for server side,or weŕe not

going to implement it in our products(App ENgine and Google CLoud Service).

But please be honest,and before that watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqolCJsvD_g&list=PLlpxjI4sVd-zEXZ-jQShQUJkK5HOgzW-p

I detected this server side contempt, some months ago in some Dart team people,but after this Dartconf I'm really

concerned. 

Iḿ in the middle of day 1, maybe I change my mind,but really dissapointed until now.

Marcello

[Jonathan Rezende]

Dart is an isophormic language, that is the base concept of Dart.

Right?

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
 
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
 
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to misc+uns...@dartlang.org.

--

Jonathan Rezende

[Marcello Dias]

I expect so.

But its not the actual speech.

Have you seen Dartconf 2018 day 1?

[Jonathan Rezende]

No. Watching the talks now.

But Dart server side is already ok in my point of view. Yes, we do lack some database packages but is not so far from being excellent. 

You can create a pretty powerful REST API with Dart and even it is not fast as other languages, with stateless you can horizontally scale it and you are ok to run, I think.

However, the client side is far away from an excellence level. Today is very difficult for me to sell Dart in the company I work. They didn't even hear about Flutter.

That is why I think they are aiming client side, because server side is ok.

(but we do need some better database packages!!!!!!)

[Matan Lurey]

This is a passionate topic, so please if folks want to discuss keep the tone respectful and calm, otherwise we'll have to intervene.

That being said, we don't expect to put much focus on server-side Dart in the short or mid-term (at least, from Google).

There are a number of critical command-line tools and servers that are maintained and supported and very important:

* Analysis server

* Observatory and VM Service

* Common front-end itself

* Dart2JS and DartDevC are both CLI applications

* DartDoc

* The pub.dartlang.org website

And of course from the community there is Aqueduct, Jaguar, Angel, and simpler ones like Shelf.

Dart as a language will focus on being the best client-side language. That doesn't mean servers will stop working, it just means we won't invest much in this area.

Thanks!

~ Matan

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

Thinks like these were said more than one time.
Just attachin one of them.

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

Well, It seems one of my messages were deleted.

After being responded by a Google Dart team,but it seems that

Dart wont go to App Engine or Google cloud Sql any time soon.

Really sorry for those who in 2014 believed in the given video, and made their plans.

It scores one point for the famous " I donT care about of I have said in the past image" that Google

have with the developers community.

But Google itself don't burn money ,and they might change this

scary plan any time soon.

Dart just don make any sense without being isomorphic, and was the main reason that many think of adopting

it in the past.

But again I congratulate for the new features, I myself were one of those that said in the past that GOogle should give

more atention for the UI, I just tought at that time that GOogle was big enough to do it ,and not brake their already written

in the stone promisses.

Marcello

[Istvan Soos]

Marcello,

Google is not a singleton, all-containing mind, where everybody
follows a central mandate. Teams in Google are highly independent and
they may not even know about the other team's plans, only after a
product is released.

I think the best way to lobby for a change is to open issues for the
respected product, and describe why you want to use Dart in them. If
you share the issue links here, others may help you boost that signal.

Btw. for me, the slide you've linked ("Dart: a language for
client-side development") is simply a statement that Dart is good (the
best) *for* client-side development (vs. the alternative languages).
However, you paint it like Dart was *only* client-side, which I think
was not the case.

Cheers,
Istvan

[Dennis Kaselow]

If it makes you somewhat less concerned, the VM guy (Vyacheslav Egorov) encourages you to run Dart on the server: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9ZMIQDpUg&t=3h17m28s

[Marcello Dias]

 Istvan.

Throughout the speachs, This was clearly stated,Dart is a language for client side development,

It is not only this slide.

I think I have listened the word Server ,just one time in the first day.

The mere fact that Google is not going to put any energy on the server for me is dissapointing, in 2018

there is not even a roadmap for them to be available in any Google Services.

I really thought it was related to everything being on hold before 2.0, but now there is a big question mark in my head? 

If this was my first contact with the language,  I would really think that Dart is only for client Side development,

Iḿ not saying that Dart is the best or the worst language for it,but being isomorphic like the guy proudly said in 2014,

do not seem to make difference anymore, and at least in my opinion, is still one of the biggest advantages of Dart

when comparing to JavaScript and TypeScript frameworks.

Were there any talk about Dart Server, side that Iḿ not aware, in DartConf?

I know that many Google developers even contribute with Dart Aqueduct in the past.

I know that Dart wont stop running in the server, because some Dartisans think we should use Go instead,but

being mainstream is a key thing to find jobs, and introduce Dart in new projects,and advertising Dart as just another

"best client side tool" wont help.

Iḿ Really help to hear from the community  , those that are using Dart server side in production, that Dart is stable

and fast enough, but would really appreciate to have heard that in Dartconf.

Marcello

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

Em quarta-feira, 24 de janeiro de 2018 21:01:58 UTC-2, Dennis Kaselow escreveu:

If it makes you somewhat less concerned, the VM guy (Vyacheslav Egorov) encourages you to run Dart on the server: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9ZMIQDpUg&t=3h17m28s

Well this was exaclty the 5 seconds I was talking about

"In case youŕe using Dart in the Server, wich I encourage you to do"

Not much for a DartCOnf, not enough for someone who is having its first contact with the language,but enough

to keep the faith.

Thanks 

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

Some years ago, Dart team was commited to write the best isomorphic language.

Now,everybody can see the point?

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

I can't even get surprised with Google anymore, and the bad thing, I was advised..

It changes its mind so frequently,that its not a new thing.

Imagine how is still.io with their Polymer application, I really hope they have used Polymer.js.

Sometimes for good reasons,like being strong typed, what it should ever be.

Of course, they wont admit it openly, but it does not seem that Google will move a leaf to make Dart a success

in the Server side.

If Go does it well, Why care?

I might be wrong, But I don  expect Dart on Google CLoud Sql in the next decade, unless they change their minds.

Developers like certainty, one words that stays until tomorrow.

If Dart was a MOzzilla or Microsoft Child it would probably be in the top 10 by now.

Google really believes  in the concept of OPen Source, the Code is there on GitHub, if Marcello cares he can continue

on developing Polymer.Dart.or implement Dart on Google Cloud Sql himself.

I really like Dart,its syntax, its architecture, and it "concept of being Isomorphic".
This is not to insult anybody.
I just think that the new Dart team belongs to that school of thinking that there is not such a thing like a perfect language,
that you make compromises to specialize a language for client side, that won be good for Server,and vice versa.
Since nobody said it clearly,but Iḿ free to take my own conclusions.
It seems that many of them think it was an error to spent time on the server side,since Dart is a client side specialized language.
Hope to hear good news on this sense, but not very hopeful about that.

But its really hard to advocate for Google, when people say: Are you insane of using a Google Language?

People are using ANgular even though it is from Google, SO it might be very good.

[Jonathan Rezende]

Yeah, I understand your point of view.

And also agree with you partially. 

Dart can not loose the quality of being isophormic.

In fact, I use Dart only because of that. If it wasn't, I would probably be developing in react.

But the idea that I can develop one language in any platform is so attractive, and well, I am doing it right now. 

I do not intend to use googlecloud or google sql, maybe that is why I don't feel so angry as you. I get a little disappointed with the mongo database package, but that is it for me right now.

I don't think you should loose hope on Dart =]

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
 
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
 
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to misc+uns...@dartlang.org.

--

Jonathan Rezende

[Marcello Dias]

For a multi billionaire company like Google, being isomorphic may not be a killer feature.

They probably have 300 hundred GO programmers, 900 hundred Dart ones,that publish

their APIS,and probably they even don'T know each other, or live in the same country.

The cost of production is so irrelevant compared to the profits, that it does not also matter too much.

But for small to midsized companies its just a "Se ne qua non " feature, 

something that Soren Gjesse seems to understand in his video.

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

But see,If it is really the case, then it should be honestely said in the projects first page.

Today I really don know what is Dart is about, imagine someone wich is getting to know Dart.

Em quarta-feira, 24 de janeiro de 2018 15:02:32 UTC-2, md9pr...@gmail.com escreveu:

[Vadim Tsushko]

I'm doing some work on server side and web side dart basically from the moment of dart announcement and to this very moment. Today dart is a primary platform in our company on both sides.
Keeping marketing part aside (I'm not an avid listener of keynotes) I see that server side dart is improving steadily. Better SSL support, consolidation of web and server side websocket and http API, new import syntax for supporting libraries targeting several platforms and so on.
Just the one fact from Leaf Peterson presentation about switching to i64 integer in dart 2.0 in my opinion could mean much more for dart server side then any absent hypothetical reveranses to the dart server side in his speach.

[Sean McCleary]

FWIW, while dart isn't a first-class GAE language, you can use it on Google Cloud.   

Google Cloud services make discovery documents available.  There are tools to generate Dart code from discovery documents. (I think there is even already-generated dart code available for Google APIs.)

I'm using it on Google Cloud.  While a nice, native dart SDK would be lovely (sometimes the discovery doc-generated code can be a bit awkward, verbose, boilerplatish) it's really not a big deal. It works fine and is easy to use.

Sean

[Marcello Dias]

Thanks for the info.

Marcello

--

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

Well,

Google newsgroups is dead.

Everything is happening here.

https://gitter.im/dart-lang/TALK-general

Well, People of stable Kernel said there were some talks about aqueduct that were note streamed.

But it seems I was not the only one dissaponted in the way server side is being runned at Dart.

Lets wait and see.

Marcello

Em quarta-feira, 24 de janeiro de 2018 15:02:32 UTC-2, md9pr...@gmail.com escreveu:

[md9pr...@gmail.com]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9DPc2AF_zY&index=22&list=PLOU2XLYxmsIIJr3vjxggY7yGcGO7i9BK5

[Kasper Peulen]

I think this comes from the idea that the Dart Team is trying to be good in too many things.

When Dart just started, the Dart team wanted to:

- Make a great language that pleases both dynamic and static lovers

- Have great standard libraries included

- Make Dart run great as a command line tool, on Linux, OSX and Windows

- Make Dart run great on the server

- Make Dart run great in the browser natively, and way faster than javascript

- Make Dart run great compiled to javascript

- Make sure that Dart can interop easily with existing javascript library

- Make a great analyzer that catches any error while you are typing

- Make a great linter that helps you be consistent

- Make a great html library that abstract many browser inconsistencies away

- Make a great web framework

- Make a great editor

- Make a great online playground

- Make a great language formatter

- Make a great package manager

- Make a great documentation library that automatically document any Dart library

- Document all of the tools above, so that people can actually learn how to use it

I guess the Dart team was blinded by ambition and excitement, because looking back at it,

it is very clear that you need a team 2 or 3 times as big as the Dart team is to be truly great on all of those things listed above.

So during the years, Dart dropped some of those goals. And many of those goals it has failed. (I mean failed to be truly great in it).

I think the idea now is, let's focus on less things, but try to be truly great in the things that we are focussing on.

It seems like a smart move. And flutter is probably the first things the Dart team is doing, where it can not only expectations that people have, 

but also exceed those expectations and do something truly outstanding.

Met vriendelijke groet, Kasper Peulen

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:10 AM, <md9pr...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9DPc2AF_zY&index=22&list=PLOU2XLYxmsIIJr3vjxggY7yGcGO7i9BK5

[Marcello Dias]

All those thing would be still achievable if Google put more people,have several teams,

Dart team Server,Dart Team bla.bla,bla.

Of course,Dart 2.0 could be a water divisor,but that wont happen.

The question is,Google changed their mind abut Dart, its a fact, as an email I receveid from the someone from DT,

its a completely different project, with different goals.

Their mantra today is focus,but the word credibility is what drives adoption.

Wiser technologies have more users,and more used in enterprise applications,those that interest to me.

Google could keep focus on several areas if it wanted.

See, I was adivised, I gave my face for punching.

https://yakovfain.com/2013/08/02/how-serious-is-google-about-dart/

See the Marcello Dias saying, well they had reasons to drop GWT,everybody does that,it had problems, it was me.

What was the reason for droping Polymer.Dart,nobody really knows, POlymer is alive kicking and getting better every day.

Fortunatelly I dont have code,just lost my credibility as an adviser with some companies.

https://yakovfain.com/2013/08/02/how-serious-is-google-about-dart/

Its like a snow bawl,today Iḿ more an adviser about Google reputation,than a Lawyer.

Google is a collection of startups,not a monolitic view company,but theyŕe very good at the technical side,Dart in my opinion

is the best language ever written(if there is such a thing),but its from Google,use it on your own risk,like Polymer

wich is the best javascript language, or flutter wich is really cool stuff.

I really like cool, state of the art stuff, that why I still keep watching Google .

But now even deleting my messages theyŕe(At least I think so,I replied someone in Gitter

that was deleted or suffered for some kind of bug),that never happend in Google before, the word democracy was really important,

everybody was free to state what they think about whatever.

I have received the yellow card,Iḿ too acid.

Have I lied,or offended someone in this thread?

I regret on advance.

Would let this thread die,just answering about Kasper Paulen point of view,

Marcello

[Marcello Dias]

Excuse me, Kasper Peulen, I hate when people misspell my name.

[Marcello Dias]

Polymer is the best javascript Library,sorry.

[Kevin Moore]

This discussion has gone a bit off the rails. Locking it down....