Vyādha Gita

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Alamelu mangai" 

Sent: 28-05-2021 3.10.26 AM

Subject: Vyādha Gita

Respected members of the sanga,

Please accept my humble obesiances

All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Guru Maharaja

In Srimad Bhagavatam, Uddhava Gita, 11.12.6, there is a reference to story of Dharma vyādha gita from varaha Purana and Mahābhārata vana parva (conversation between king yudhisthira and Markandeya rsi), cited in relation to association of devotees. Since there is no direct reference from Srila Prabhupada, can this be used in preaching? It establishes the principles which Krsna instructs Arjuna in Bhagavad Gita. How one is not polluted by performing one's prescribed duties even if it is abominable. 

https://asitis.com/3/7.html

Your servant

Anupama Devi Dasi

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Jay Nityananda Das" 

Sent: 29-05-2021 4.26.35 PM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Respected Mother,

Namo Namah.

I am not addressing your concern directly, however I thought of sharing some points in this regard that could be useful.  

Traditionally, any scripture has certain "prayojana" or purpose and  expects certain "adhikara" or eligibility from its readers (Technically it is called "anubandha-catustayam") e.g. detachment or renunciation is a virtue that is very much favorable to advancement in Krsna consciousness, however, not everyone can go for it immediately.

Regarding Srila Prabhupada's books, they are designed for masses with the key purpose of elevating everyone to Krsna consciousness regardless of their previous background, so the question of eligibility does not arise there whereas the scriptures such as puranas, Mahabharata are designed for various levels of audiences (karmi-jnani-yogi and so on) and the purpose, however  is not to teach their readers/audiences unadulterated Krsna consciousness directly but to train them into dharma-artha-kama-moksha and so on, so that they can gradually be elevated to Krsna consciousness.

Unless one is sufficiently discriminating, there are chances that one may get more confused by reading them independently as half knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance. So, in my humble opinion, only discriminating devotees, who are fully aware of the mood and mission of Acarya-sampradaya should go for it, for shastras are meant for practical application, not for mere information.  Better to get guidance from one's spiritual authorities for issues like this. 

das,

Jaya Nityananda Dasa

("Nandagrama" Varnasrama Community Project)

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Alamelu mangai" 

Sent: 30-05-2021 6.12.40 PM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Thank you prabhu for the clarification. Yes one requires intelligence in applying various sastric injunctions to different levels of persons. 

My reason for posting this, I have a doubt. Certain devotees states that for a woman to engage in stri dharma and serve their non devotee husband, will not impact their principles of devotional service. (Like dharma vyadha, butcher who was pious but engaged in sinful occupation, he realised spiritual knowledge by performing his prescribed duties by birth)

 I have read in one pdf article written by HH Bhakti Caitanya Maharaja, that a devotee woman should not intimately serve non devotee husband. In Garuda Purana,

3.19.31 "In this world, there are several women who though married are always widows. Those who do not regard Hari as their husband - Hari who is beginningless, eternal, the quintessence of the universe, beautiful, bestower of liberation and accomplisher of desires - are always widows.

3.19.37 "The women should desert their husbands if they are averse to Visnu.

2.2.65 "The sins of the people spread by talk, touch, breathing, going together, eating together, worshiping together, by teaching and sexual union.

In one sense, if we take Mahābhārata into consideration, doing one's prescribed duties will not impediment to Krsna consciousness. Even Srimad Bhagavatam supports this, one can worship Krsna by performing one's prescribed duties in Varnasrama dharma. On the other hand, these injunctions from Garuda Purana raises doubt.

Often example of Prahlada Maharaja is stated that how a devotee is born to the atheist father. One should be realistic to understand that appearance of Lord Krsna and His devotees are beyond mundane morality. In Valmiki Ramayana, it is stated that a general idea, sons take up the nature of mother and daughter of father. Bharata (Visnu tattva category ) was exceptional to the rule. 

Prahlada Maharaja himself is humbly praying to Sri Nrsimhadeva that "I have taken birth in atheist family because of my previous sinful activities". 

One thing is certain, Devotional service cannot be checked by any material situation. 

Srila Madhavacarya, also supports the idea of both husband and wife together serve Krsna and go back to Godhead. 

As you have before mentioned, these instructions should not be generalized. 

One mataji, from female disciples group in Facebook contacted me explaining her miserable situation, unfortunately she has married to a non devotee husband. He is tormenting her for sex and she already has a son. She is an aspiring disciple and no devotee association. I consoled her and said to maintain her Krsna consciousness practice despite her difficult circumstances. I told her to contact one of our godsisters in her city to contact and seek guidance from her.  

Many such devotee women are suffering being married to a non devotee husband. She can't move to a devotee community her parents and husband are opposed to Krsna consciousness. 

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Vrajanagara das" 

Sent: 02-06-2021 1.55.20 AM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Hare Krishna dear devotees, please accept my respectful obeisances.

In this discussion there is an idea that there is no sin in fulfilling one's duty even if it is abominable. But duty (Dharma) may be created only by God. But this discussion gives an expression that it is about any duty, even about duty of nacists in concentration camps. I think examples are needed.

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Jay Nityananda Das" 

Sent: 02-06-2021 8.15.45 PM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Dear Vrajanagara Prabhu ji,

Namo Namah.

>>In this discussion there is an idea that there is no sin in fulfilling one's duty even if it is abominable. But duty (Dharma) may be created only by God. But this discussion gives an expression that it is about any duty, even about duty of nacists in concentration camps. I think examples are needed.

Your good self is right. We certainly need examples to understand what kind of "traditional" duties are allowed under the scheme of Vedic society. In Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 7, chapter 11, Srila Prabhupada has given some hints about such duties as your good self can see below, however, there are more details available in Manu-smrti and Yajnavalkya-smrti. There is a commentary known as "Balambhatti", which is a sub-commentary on the commentary on the Yajnavalkya-smriti ( that is known as "Mitakshara"). This commentary gives a vivid description of such duties. Kindly note the following from SB (7.11.30, purport).

"The four principal divisions of society—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra—have been defined, and now there is a description of the antyaja, the mixed classes. Among the mixed classes, there are two divisions—pratilomaja and anulomaja. If a woman of a high caste marries a man of a lower caste, their union is called pratiloma. If a woman of a low caste, however, marries a man of a higher caste, their union is called anuloma. The members of such dynasties have their traditional duties as barbers, washermen and so on. Among the antyajas, those who are still somewhat pure in that they do not steal and are not addicted to meat-eating, drinking, illicit sex and gambling are called antevasāyī. Among people of the lower classes, intermarriage and the drinking of wine are allowed, for these people do not recognize such conduct as sinful among themselves."

Apart from those duties, any other "duties" such as mentioned by Your goodself, cannot be included under this scheme as stealing and gross sinful activities are out of this scheme.  

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Jay Nityananda Das" 

Sent: 03-06-2021 4.35.38 PM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Dear Devotees,

Namo Namah.

>>3.19.37 "The women should desert their husbands if they are averse to Visnu.

I tried to find out this particular reference or theme in the Gita Press Gorakhpur edition (this edition does not have verses, only summary is there), however it is not there. There is one more edition of Garuda Purana published by Chaukhamba Bharati Prakashana with Sanskrit verses, however, it does not include the 3rd part for some reasons, which is known as brahma-kanda, and thus it does not have such reference.

There is a similar discussion in SB(7.11.28) wherein there is a recommendation that a chaste lady should not serve her fallen husband. Kindly see below (emphasis added):

"According to the injunction of Yājñavalkya, an authority on religious principles, āśuddheḥ sampratikṣyo hi mahāpātaka-dūṣitaḥ. One is considered contaminated by the reactions of great sinful activities when one has not been purified according to the methods of the daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra. In Bhagavad-gītā, however, the Lord says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: [Bg. 7.15] "Those miscreants who do not surrender unto Me are the lowest of mankind." The word narādhama means "nondevotee." Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, yei bhaje sei baḍa, abhakta-hīna [Cc. Antya 4.67], chāra. Anyone who is a devotee is sinless. One who is not a devotee, however, is the most fallen and condemned. It is recommended, therefore, that a chaste wife not associate with a fallen husband. A fallen husband is one who is addicted to the four principles of sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Specifically, if one is not a soul surrendered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is understood to be contaminated. Thus a chaste woman is advised not to agree to serve such a husband. It is not that a chaste woman should be like a slave while her husband is narādhama, the lowest of men. Although the duties of a woman are different from those of a man, a chaste woman is not meant to serve a fallen husband. If her husband is fallen, it is recommended that she give up his association. Giving up the association of her husband does not mean, however, that a woman should marry again and thus indulge in prostitution. If a chaste woman unfortunately marries a husband who is fallen, she should live separately from him. Similarly, a husband can separate himself from a woman who is not chaste according to the description of the śāstra. The conclusion is that a husband should be a pure Vaiṣṇava and that a woman should be a chaste wife with all the symptoms described in this regard. Then both of them will be happy and make spiritual progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." [SB (7.11.28, purport)]

The above purport does not support divorce as some devotees might assume. It requires a traditional outlook in order to fully comprehend it. Sridhara Swami in his Bhavartha-dipika commentary quotes from the Yajnavalkya-smrti:

It says that a chaste lady should not serve a fallen husband as long as her husband does not get reformed or purified by atonements in this regard. Almost all the Acharyas mentioned that once the husband is reformed by prayaschitta or atonements, she can associate with him intimately as Acharya Madhusudana writes in his commentary on BG(1.40) that women get polluted by associating with a fallen husband intimately .(and such intimacy gives rise to unwanted progeny or "varna-sankaras")

Acarya Vijnaneshvara who has commented on Yajnavalkya-smrti (1.77) says that it is the topmost dharma of a chaste wife to obey her husband's orders, however, as long as her husband is fallen, she is not supposed to obey him "na tat-pAratantryam''. Once when her husband is reformed, she should be obeying him as before "uttara-kAlam tu pUrva-vad eva tat-pAratantrayam ''. 

We might think that if the wife is not with her husband, then who will be looking after his household affairs? In answer to this, Acharya Ballambhatta, who has written a commentary on the commentary of Vijnaneshvara, says that "tat bhartR-suzruSA-tyAgena japa-Adi-nizedha-paraM, na tu sarvathA tat-param" meaning when it is said that a chaste wife is not supposed to obey her husband "na tat-pAratantryam", it does not mean that she will giving up her "nitya-dharmAH" of looking after her household duties but she will not be obeying the orders of her fallen husband regarding japa (chanting of various mantras), tapas (taking vows), tIrtha-yAtrA (going to pilgrimage), devatA-ArAdhanam (worshiping the household deities) and so on. (All of these generally demand permission from the husband as per Manu-smrti)

Now, it may be difficult for us to conceive of this situation when a wife is with her fallen husband and at the same time she is not serving him in intimacy, however, the joint family culture can make it possible. In today's nuclear family scenario, there are no superiors in the family to ensure purity in relationships, hence, living separately is the only possible solution.

[Side Note: Husband-wife sleeping together on the same bed everyday is a modern scenario. In a cultured society, both the sexes will be sleeping separately in a joint-family scenario.] 

Having said that, we have to see the time-place-circumstances of both the candidates (Husband and wife) who may be facing these difficulties. We cannot generalize it. We see that Srila Prabhupada's sister had to cook meat for her husband, however she did not give up her husband. In traditions also, we don't find much of the application of this practice wherein suffering candidates take the above solution. There are multi factors acting in household affairs, and for better analysis, it is better to get guidance from some experienced and mature Grhastha devotees in this regard who can aptly judge the situation and give some practical and peaceful solutions. 

das,

Jaya Nityananda Dasa

("Nandagrama" Varnasrama Community Project)

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 6:35 PM BVKS Sanga wrote:

From: "Alamelu mangai" 

Sent: 30-05-2021 6.12.40 PM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Thank you prabhu for the clarification. Yes one requires intelligence in applying various sastric injunctions to different levels of persons. 

My reason for posting this, I have a doubt. Certain devotees states that for a woman to engage in stri dharma and serve their non devotee husband, will not impact their principles of devotional service. (Like dharma vyadha, butcher who was pious but engaged in sinful occupation, he realised spiritual knowledge by performing his prescribed duties by birth)

 I have read in one pdf article written by HH Bhakti Caitanya Maharaja, that a devotee woman should not intimately serve non devotee husband. In Garuda Purana,

3.19.31 "In this world, there are several women who though married are always widows. Those who do not regard Hari as their husband - Hari who is beginningless, eternal, the quintessence of the universe, beautiful, bestower of liberation and accomplisher of desires - are always widows.

3.19.37 "The women should desert their husbands if they are averse to Visnu.

2.2.65 "The sins of the people spread by talk, touch, breathing, going together, eating together, worshiping together, by teaching and sexual union.

In one sense, if we take Mahābhārata into consideration, doing one's prescribed duties will not impediment to Krsna consciousness. Even Srimad Bhagavatam supports this, one can worship Krsna by performing one's prescribed duties in Varnasrama dharma. On the other hand, these injunctions from Garuda Purana raises doubt.

Often example of Prahlada Maharaja is stated that how a devotee is born to the atheist father. One should be realistic to understand that appearance of Lord Krsna and His devotees are beyond mundane morality. In Valmiki Ramayana, it is stated that a general idea, sons take up the nature of mother and daughter of father. Bharata (Visnu tattva category ) was exceptional to the rule. 

Prahlada Maharaja himself is humbly praying to Sri Nrsimhadeva that "I have taken birth in atheist family because of my previous sinful activities". 

One thing is certain, Devotional service cannot be checked by any material situation. 

Srila Madhavacarya, also supports the idea of both husband and wife together serve Krsna and go back to Godhead. 

As you have before mentioned, these instructions should not be generalized. 

One mataji, from female disciples group in Facebook contacted me explaining her miserable situation, unfortunately she has married to a non devotee husband. He is tormenting her for sex and she already has a son. She is an aspiring disciple and no devotee association. I consoled her and said to maintain her Krsna consciousness practice despite her difficult circumstances. I told her to contact one of our godsisters in her city to contact and seek guidance from her.  

Many such devotee women are suffering being married to a non devotee husband. She can't move to a devotee community her parents and husband are opposed to Krsna consciousness. 

[Bhakti Vikasa Swami]

> Unless one is sufficiently discriminating, there are chances that one
> may get more confused by reading them independently as half knowledge is
> more dangerous than ignorance. So, in my humble opinion, only
> discriminating devotees, who are fully aware of the mood and mission of
> Acarya-sampradaya should go for it, for shastras are meant for practical
> application, not for mere information. Better to get guidance from
> one's spiritual authorities for issues like this.

Dharma cannot be ascertained by logic, nor even in every case by a study of
the scripture. One must seek the guidance of experienced and wise elders to
learn its subtleties.

Krsna to Arjuna; Mahabharata, Karna Parva

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Vrajanagara das" 

Sent: 05-06-2021 9.35.52 AM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Thank you Prabhu, I am glad to have an opportunity to associate with such a learned person like you.

I have a humble request to you. Send me a link to Bhaktivinoda Thakura's article about offencives and criticism.

On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 17:10, BVKS Sanga wrote:

From: "Jay Nityananda Das" 

Sent: 02-06-2021 8.15.45 PM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Dear Vrajanagara Prabhu ji,

Namo Namah.

>>In this discussion there is an idea that there is no sin in fulfilling one's duty even if it is abominable. But duty (Dharma) may be created only by God. But this discussion gives an expression that it is about any duty, even about duty of nacists in concentration camps. I think examples are needed.

Your good self is right. We certainly need examples to understand what kind of "traditional" duties are allowed under the scheme of Vedic society. In Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 7, chapter 11, Srila Prabhupada has given some hints about such duties as your good self can see below, however, there are more details available in Manu-smrti and Yajnavalkya-smrti. There is a commentary known as "Balambhatti", which is a sub-commentary on the commentary on the Yajnavalkya-smriti ( that is known as "Mitakshara"). This commentary gives a vivid description of such duties. Kindly note the following from SB (7.11.30, purport).

"The four principal divisions of society—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra—have been defined, and now there is a description of the antyaja, the mixed classes. Among the mixed classes, there are two divisions—pratilomaja and anulomaja. If a woman of a high caste marries a man of a lower caste, their union is called pratiloma. If a woman of a low caste, however, marries a man of a higher caste, their union is called anuloma. The members of such dynasties have their traditional duties as barbers, washermen and so on. Among the antyajas, those who are still somewhat pure in that they do not steal and are not addicted to meat-eating, drinking, illicit sex and gambling are called antevasāyī. Among people of the lower classes, intermarriage and the drinking of wine are allowed, for these people do not recognize such conduct as sinful among themselves."

Apart from those duties, any other "duties" such as mentioned by Your goodself, cannot be included under this scheme as stealing and gross sinful activities are out of this scheme.  

das,

Jaya Nityananda Dasa

("Nandagrama" Varnasrama Community Project)

From: "Vrajanagara das" 

Sent: 02-06-2021 1.55.20 AM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Hare Krishna dear devotees, please accept my respectful obeisances.

In this discussion there is an idea that there is no sin in fulfilling one's duty even if it is abominable. But duty (Dharma) may be created only by God. But this discussion gives an expression that it is about any duty, even about duty of nacists in concentration camps. I think examples are needed.

From: "Jay Nityananda Das" 

Sent: 29-05-2021 4.26.35 PM

Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Respected Mother,

Namo Namah.

I am not addressing your concern directly, however I thought of sharing some points in this regard that could be useful.  

Traditionally, any scripture has certain "prayojana" or purpose and  expects certain "adhikara" or eligibility from its readers (Technically it is called "anubandha-catustayam") e.g. detachment or renunciation is a virtue that is very much favorable to advancement in Krsna consciousness, however, not everyone can go for it immediately.

Regarding Srila Prabhupada's books, they are designed for masses with the key purpose of elevating everyone to Krsna consciousness regardless of their previous background, so the question of eligibility does not arise there whereas the scriptures such as puranas, Mahabharata are designed for various levels of audiences (karmi-jnani-yogi and so on) and the purpose, however  is not to teach their readers/audiences unadulterated Krsna consciousness directly but to train them into dharma-artha-kama-moksha and so on, so that they can gradually be elevated to Krsna consciousness.

Unless one is sufficiently discriminating, there are chances that one may get more confused by reading them independently as half knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance. So, in my humble opinion, only discriminating devotees, who are fully aware of the mood and mission of Acarya-sampradaya should go for it, for shastras are meant for practical application, not for mere information.  Better to get guidance from one's spiritual authorities for issues like this. 

das,

Jaya Nityananda Dasa

("Nandagrama" Varnasrama Community Project)

[BVKS Sanga]

From: "Jay Nityananda Das"
Sent: 06-06-2021 6.32.52 PM
Subject: Re: Vyādha Gita

Dear Vrjanagara Prabhu ji,

Namo Namah.

Following is the link for the article of Bhaktivinoda Thakura on Vaisnava-ninda or Criticizing a Vaisnava:

https://www.purebhakti.com/teachers/bhakti-discourses/57-discourses-2010/1110-vaisnava-ninda-criticizing-a-vaisnava