Karya Vaikuntha

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:02:59 +0530
From:	Srinivasan Narayanan

Dear Guru Maharaja
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
My humble obeisances to all the devotees.

Recently I had a WhatsApp discussion with a senior Sri Vaishnava devotee, Sri Sarathy Thotthathri, Editor of a website called Koyil.org on "Going back home back to Godhead." According to him, we have never fallen down from Vaikuntha, as once anyone goes there never comes back, and that we have always been in "Samsara Chakra" which is within the material world from which we come to the material world again and again. So, there is no "Going Back Home Back to Godhead." He said that finally, on crossing "Samsara Chakra" we go to Vaikuntha and never fall down. He didn't agree with the jivas falling down to earth because of their enviousness of Krishna and the desire to imitate Krishna. When I referred to the four Kumaras, Dhurvasa Muni and Brghu Muni going to Vaikuntha and coming back, he said that according to Sri Sampradaya acharyas, they went only to Karya Vaikuntha which is in the material world (are they referring to "Shweta Dveep" ?). Any place Vishnu is there is Vaikuntha. Then is there a Karya Vaikuntha? How do we explain "falling down" and "Going Back Home Back to Godhead?"

Hare Krishna

Your humble servant
Narayana Srinivasa Dasa

[BVKS Sanga ADM]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:25:55 +0530
From:	Shyamananda Dasa

Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah

Dandavats Prabhu. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and his sincere followers.

This is a perennial question and has been answered many times in numerous ways. All the details regarding this matter are inconceivable to most of us but we can get some understanding about this from Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. The GBC published book "Origin of the jiva" gives Srila Prabhupada's stance on this issue. Appearantly in the book "Original postion" Ramanujacarya also has been quoted to have supported the "fall theory".

Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura have reconciled this contradiction by stating that the Jiva being tatastha sakti or borderline potency by constitution originates in a marginal area between Vaikuntha and the Material world but can't stay there eternally it either chooses Vaikuntha or samsara. Below are a few quotes to substantiate this explanation.

BRHADARANYAKA UPANISAD states the following about the marginal position of the jiva:

tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane bhavata

idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam

svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete

ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca

"The jiva-purusa should inquire about two locations, the material world and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, called svapna sthana, on the border between these two places. Situated in this marginal place, he can see both the material and spiritual worlds". (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.9)

tad yatha maha matsya ubhe kule'

nusancarati purvam ca param caivam

evayam purusa etav ubhav antav

anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca

"Just as a large fish living in the river wanders from one bank to the other, so the jiva is of similar quality, and is equipped to wander in the Karana waters between the material and spiritual worlds (svapnanta and buddhanta)." (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.18)

JIVA GOSVAMI writes in his commentary to Sri Brahma-samhita 5.21 and quotes Sri Narada-pancaratra:

yat-tatastham tu cid rupam sva-samvedyad vinirgatam

ranjitam guna ragena sa jiva iti kathyate

"Although spiritual and conscious by nature, the jiva lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. When it chooses to enter the material world, it becomes contaminated by the modes of nature. That is said to be the spirit soul."

BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA writes the following in numerous books:

ubhaya-kula dekhite dekhite bhogecchara udaya

haile tahara cit-surya-svarupa krsna haite bahirmukha haya

"The moment that the jivas desire to enjoy independently while gazing at the two banks of the river, they become averse to Krsna, who is like the sun."

tini cit u jadera sandhi-sthale tatastha-sakti-karttrka prakatita haiya sei sthana haite cijjagata u mayika-jagata ubhaya sthana dekhite lagilen. Ektu bhagavaj jnanakrsta haiya yahara sei jnana-samsarga-prasanga cidabhilasi hailen, tahara nitya-bhagavadusmukhata-prayukta cicchakti-vilasagata-hladini-bala-prapta haiya krsna-parsada-rupe cijjagate nita hailen. Yahara svecchakrame anyaparsvasthita mayate mohita haiya lobha karilam, tahara mayakarttrka ahuta haiya mayika jagate akrsta haoyaya mayadisa karanarnavasayi purusavatara-karttrka jada-jagate niksipta hailen. Iha kevala tahadera nitya bhagavadvaimukhyera phala. Maya-madhyagata ihavamatra mayavrtti avidya tahadigke lipta kavila. Avidyalipta haiya tahate abhinivesa karate avidya-bandh karme cakre padilena. Esthale karma-phala-bhoji paksira sahita tahadera tulana haila.

"The jiva appeared by the marginal energy at the dividing line between spirit and matter. From that position, he began to gaze at the spiritual and material worlds. Those jivas who were attracted somewhat to realization of the Supreme Person became desirous of the spiritual realm because of that contact of knowledge. They then obtained strength from the hladini potency of the abundant cit sakti, which made them favorable to the Lord eternally, and they were brought into the spiritual world as associates of the Lord. Those who, by their own free will, became bewildered and became greedy for maya situated on the opposite side, being beckoned by maya, then became attracted to the material universe, and were thrown in the universe by Karanarnavasayi Visnu, the controller of maya. That was but the result of their eternal aversion to the Supreme Lord. The moment they entered the material realm, they became overcome by ignorance, the function of maya. Overcome by ignorance, they fell into the wheel of binding karma in order to become fully absorbed in their task." (Mahaprabhura-siksa ch.7)

"It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres." (Tattva Viveka 2.4,page 55)

"Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4)

"A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world, they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7)

"The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayika-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God." (Bhagavat-arka Marici-mala, chap. 1, Intro)

"The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna and they are spiritual but atomic. In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayika-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when he becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies that are provided by prakrti. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss." (Bhagavat-arka Marici-mala, ch. 7, text 34, purport)

"The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas)." (Brahma-samhita 10, purp.)

"The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15)

"The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginning-less." (Jaiva Dharma)

"There are two types of jivas liberated from maya, nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from Mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana." (Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17)

BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA has written on the nature of jiva as follows:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

"Due to being situated in the marginal position, living entities who are averse to Hari assume the nature of mixed consciousness; in other words, when the marginal energy living entities mix with the external energy, they consider themselves the enjoyers and then enter the material world. The cause of the spirit soul's coming to live in this world in aversion to Krsna is his misuse of his free will. When this aversion becomes strong, the living entities accept a material mind and body in order to enjoy the temporary material world and thus come under the control of fruitive reactions. And when, on the strength of pious activities, they become transcendental to the varnasrama principles, which distinguish superior and inferior behavior in this world, they become paramahamsas by perfecting themselves through sadhana. Those who become paramahamsas are the Hari-janas. And those who fall from the platform of paramahamsa and engage in fruitive activities while associating with matter are situated on the platform of varnasrama. (From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava')

your servant,

Shyamananda dasa brahmacari

[BVKS Sanga ADM]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:46:27 +0530

Dear Narayana Srinivasa Prabhu

Please accept my humble obeisances

Jaya Srila Prabhupada and Guru Maharaja

This is a major point discussed in Rahasya Traya Saram (RTS) and this question of Jivas never returning back to Material world is not substantiated by Vedanta Desikar Grantham known as Virodha Pariharam(VP) which is nothing but refutation to refutation of RTS.

In that scripture (if i remember correctly verse 66 through 68) describes two kinds of residents of Parama Padam. One kind are devotees who never want to leave the association of the Lord at Parama Padam (Sri Vaishnavas describe this by the term sayujya mukti). There are other kinds of devotees who travel back and forth between nitya vibhuti (Prama Padam) and lila vibhuti (manifested world) for taking part in the Lord's pastimes.

Now Sriman Sarathy T may have to explain Sri Nammalvar's verse 10.9.x series in which the residents of Vaikunta receive the Vaishnavas returning back home back to Godhead.

In my interaction with Sri Vaishnavas, i recommend you also consult Sriman MA Venkata Krishna Swamin of Triplicane or Sriman Vasudevan of Sri Rangam. T Sarathy, based on my personal interactions, seems to be more conservative and reserved in regards to sharing of information, especially with ISKCON followers.

Sriman MAV and Sriman Vasudevan are very open and have quite high regards for iskcon devotees as was witnessed in CC release function (MAV speech) and Sri Rangam Sravanam Kirtan camp.

Even, Sriman PBA Swami (20th century Prativadi Bhayankaram) clearly comments in his commentary to 4.8.11 Tiruvaimoli that the term "Vaikuntha managar" indicates that there are many sub planets within Vaikunta and of them all there is a big Vaikunta planet (Managar in Tamil means big place). In my interaction with Sriman Velukudi Krishnan swami he contested that there is only one Vaikunta planet and was opposing my point that Golaka Vrndavanam is the topmost among planets of Vaikunta realm (cited Brahma samhita verse Goloka Namni nija dhamni...).

So from various angles there appears to be contradictions among the Sri Vaishnava scholars which sometimes can be very hard to reconcile with Gaudiya Vaishnava concepts.

Sayujya mukti is considered highest in Sri Vaishnavam but the very word sayujya trigger alarm bells invthe minds of even an average reader of Srila Prabhupada and Gaudiya Acaryas books. However a deeper study of RTS clearly indicates that the term Sayujya is being overloaded between the Sri and Gaudiyas but their inner import of the meaning clearly says that both Sris and Gaudiyas do not accept Ekatvam (merging and losing individual identity).

So trying to explain Sri Vaishnavam in Gaudiya context and vice versa can be extremely complex for even expert devotees of both the sampradayas and in some cases it is irreconcilable like Lord Krishna vs Lord Narayana being the first. 

As Guru Maharaja pointed out in our conversation published on youtube, the rasa vicaram is quite different between these two sampradayams.

Hope this is of some use to you and other devotees.

Your humble servant

Sridhara Srinivasa dasa

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:56:57 -0700
From:	Radhananda Dasa. BVKS
To:	sa...@bvkssanga.info

Dear Shyamananda Prabhu,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

All glories to Srila Gurudeva

How do we reconcile this with the statement that we were originally with Krsna. He often stated - "We are all originally Krsna conscious entities". Can you please help reconcile this apparent contradiction.

Also, tatastha means sometimes under the influence of spiritual potency but always prone to be overcome by maha-maya. And so it seems the jiva is prone to fall down even after entering goloka-vrindavan, and has the free will to do so. Can you please elaborate on this as well.

Hare Krsna

Your Servant,

Radhananda Dasa

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:

From:	Shyamananda Dasa

Subject:	Karya Vaikuntha

Date:	Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:02:59 +0530
From:	Srinivasan Narayanan

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Mon, 11 Oct 2021 09:39:30 +0530
From:	Narayana Srinivasa

Pranams Shyamananda Prabhu

Thanks for taking time to reply to my query. 

I too request you to clarify the following:

"Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura have reconciled this contradiction by stating that the Jiva being tatastha sakti or borderline potency by constitution originates in a marginal area between Vaikuntha and the Material world but can't stay there eternally it either chooses Vaikuntha or samsara. Below are a few quotes to substantiate this explanation."

1.Then how do we justify that the jivas became envious of Krishna and fell down if they have not been with Him. 

2. If jivas fell down from a different place between material world and spiritual world and it's not the actual 'hope then how do we justify the claim 'Going home back to Godhead?'

3. How do we justify the four Kumaras, Dhurvasa Muni, and Bhrigu Muni entering Vaikuntha by their own power & coming out? 

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Mon, 11 Oct 2021 11:20:22 +0530
From:	Sri Giridhari Dasa

Dear Narayana Srinivasa Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Please hear the following lectures:

https://bvks.com/lecture/did-the-jiva-fall-from-the-spiritual-world/

https://bvks.com/lecture/never-stop-dreaming/

https://bvks.com/lecture/falling-into-a-dream/

And, read the following books:

(1) The Origin of the Jiva by Drutakarma Prabhu

(2) Our Original Position by GBC Press

[Both the books are available in Vedabase.]

Your Servant

Sri Giridhari Dasa

www.tamilbtg.com

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:32:06 +0530
From:	Shyamananda Dasa

Dandavats Prabhu. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Regarding your first question Krishna is the source of all categories of living beings aham sarvasya prabhavah (Gita 10.8), janmadyasya yatah (S.B.1.1.1) etc. So He is the origin of the tatastha sakti of which the jivas are parts. So certainly they were with Krishna in the beginning.

About, your second question it is true that being infinitesimal and marginal potency the jiva can come under the sway of the material energy and forget Krishna. But in the spiritual world the chances are negligible like 0.00001% therefore Krishna says yad gatva na nivartante... This is how Srila Prabhupada has reconciled it in his talks on this subject as evidenced in the book "Origin of the Jiva".

I will not delve too much into this matter as the truth will be revealed to us when we sufficiently purified by devotional service sevonmukhe hi jihvadau swayam eva sphurati adah.

Hare Krishna!

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021, 09:13 BVKS Sanga, <bvks....@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:56:57 -0700
From:	Radhananda Dasa. BVKS

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:45:15 +0530
From:	Shyamananda Dasa

Dandavats Prabhu. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

In reply to your queries

1. The point is not that jivas were not with Krishna but that their position is marginal. They were with Krishna but came to the material world by misuse of their free will.

2. The marginal position is from where they fall because from there the material world begins. This doesn't mean they weren't with Krishna before. Just like one's entry into a particluar country is considered when he crosses the border.

3. In Gita 2.24 Krishna says the jiva is sarva gata sthanu meaning he can travel everywhere in his liberated state. So great sages like the Kumaras and others are liberated souls and are free to travel in all realms.

In summary, to conclude that the jiva was not with Krishna in the beginning based on this evidence is a mistake.

Hare Krishna!

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:

Mon, 11 Oct 2021 09:39:30 +0530

From:	Narayana Srinivasa

Pranams Shyamananda Prabhu

Thanks for taking time to reply to my query. 

I too request you to clarify the following:

"Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura have reconciled this contradiction by stating that the Jiva being tatastha sakti or borderline potency by constitution originates in a marginal area between Vaikuntha and the Material world but can't stay there eternally it either chooses Vaikuntha or samsara. Below are a few quotes to substantiate this explanation."

1.Then how do we justify that the jivas became envious of Krishna and fell down if they have not been with Him. 

2. If jivas fell down from a different place between material world and spiritual world and it's not the actual 'hope then how do we justify the claim 'Going home back to Godhead?'

3. How do we justify the four Kumaras, Dhurvasa Muni, and Bhrigu Muni entering Vaikuntha by their own power & coming out? 

Hare Krishna

Your humble servant

Narayana Srinivasa Dasa

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:56:57 -0700
From:	Radhananda Dasa. BVKS

To:	sa...@bvkssanga.info

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	13 Oct 2021 03:22:25 -0000
From:	G Jayakaran

Dear Prabhus

Please accept my humble obeisances

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga

Prabhu, that Sri Vaishnava devotee was talking about one half (beda) only, but he didn't talk about the other half (abeda).  When Brahman (Vishnu or Krishna) wants to become many, so we were manifested (we cannot traceout when, but we were manifested from him).  This is what upanishads are teaching.  If we agree that we are amsa of Krishna (BG 15.7), then he is the source of us.  Forget about when we fell from Vaikunda, but he is the source and we have our relationship with him.  If we forever resides in the material world means (anadi period, without any cause), he should prove that how Vishnu is the source of everything and what is the relation between us with Vishnu.  So, with this simple logic, we can easily prove that we were with Krishna.  Even our Acaryas confirmed that, we chose this material universe by seeing the glitterness, not Vishnu created us as baddha from the beginning.  If he created like that, then it is not my mistake to enter into this material world, then why i need to suffer in this cycle of birth and death.  We can further claim that, Vishnu has to suffer in the hell or enjoy in the heaven, not me (this further makes us to think that he is more physco than Christian definition of God, the angry father).  This further develop the question of where is Jiva's individuality?

in BG 9.4 Krishna says, By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

So we are connected with Krishna always.  Now we forgot out eternal relationship with him and we are struggling in this material world.  So, we have to go back home back to our original consciousness that is Krishna consciousness.  It is absolutely correct to say "Back Home Back to Godhead". 

dasanudasa
Jaya Krsna Dasa

We couldn't verify the sender of this email.

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:38:43 -0700
From:	Radhananda (Dasa) BVKS

Dear Shyamananda Prabhu,
Namonamah

Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah

About, your second question it is true that being infinitesimal and marginal potency the jiva can come under the sway of the material energy and forget Krishna. But in the spiritual world the chances are negligible like 0.00001% therefore Krishna says yad gatva na nivartante...

Is there any sastric pramana to support the claim for negligible
chance? yad gatva na nivartante simply means that having reached the
supreme abode, they never have to come back (unless of course, they
want to enjoy independently of Krsna). Based on CC Madhya 21.56, the
probability of living entities being in the material world could be
more like 25%, since one-fourth of the creation is the material world.

If the chances of falling down to the material world are next to nill,
the material world wouldn't be viable, and if the material world
doesn't manifest how will Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu experience
audarya-bhava in delivering the fallen living entities?

-- 
Your Servant,
Rādhānanda Dāsa

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:48:35 +0530
From:	Shyamananda Dasa

Dandavats Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada ki Jaya! 

When dealing with infinite numbers % statistics are only meant to give an idea. 25% or 0.00001% of infinity is still infinity. Ekamsena sthito jagat (Gita 10.42) can be 1 out of 4 or 1 out of thousand or million since we are dealing with infinity.

Below Srila Prabhupada explains that even after going back there is always chance of fall down for the marginal jiva.

Dr. Mize: Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once, or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they're not foolish, they don't fall down?

Prabhupāda: No, there are... Majority, ninety percent, they are always good. They never fall down.

Dr. Mize: So we're among the ten percent.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world, all the living entities they are... Just like in the prison house there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few falls down.

Dr. Mize: Does Kṛṣṇa know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Kṛṣṇa may know because He is omniscient.

Dr. Mize: Are more souls falling all the time?

Prabhupāda: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence... Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal, so their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing..." Government knows there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency.

(Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize, June 23,1975 LA)

Devotee: It is said that once you achieve the Godhead, once you go back to Kṛṣṇa, that you don't fall down. But it is also said that we come from there originally. If we came from there, how did we fall if we were already there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this example that personalities like Brahmā and Śiva, they also sometimes become victims of māyā. So our, I mean to say, potency of falling down is always there, potency. And because we are part and parcel of God and because we are now in the material world, it is to be understood that we have fallen down. But you cannot trace out the history when you have fallen down. That is impossible. But our position is marginal. At any moment, we can fall down. That tendency is there. Therefore we are called marginal. But one... Just like it is very simple to understand. Everyone is prone to fall diseased. Is it not? Now when you are diseased, there is no necessity of finding out the history when you became diseased. You are diseased, make your treatment, that's all. Similarly, we are in the material condition of life. Just go on treating it, and as soon as you are cured, be careful not to fall down again. But there is chance of falling down, again becoming diseased. Not that because you once become cured, there is no chance of becoming diseased again. There is chance. Therefore we shall be very much careful. Yes.

(B.G. 2.62-72 LA December 19th 1968)

Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

(Letter to Upendra, Tittenhurst 27 Oct 1969)

Hare Krishna!

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:21:18 -0700
From:	Radhananda Dasa. BVKS

Dear Shyamananda Prabhu,
Namonamah
Jaya Srila Prabhupada

When dealing with infinite numbers % statistics are only meant to give an idea. 25% or 0.00001% of infinity is still infinity. Ekamsena sthito jagat (Gita 10.42) can be 1 out of 4 or 1 out of thousand or million since we are dealing with infinity.

We are not dealing with an infinite number here. The number of souls
is finite, it is just that they are innumerable. A number line tends
to infinity because a new number can always be created by adding one
to the prior number. Since souls can't be created, they are definitely
a finite number, but an inconceivably large number.

Since we are dealing with finite numbers 0.00001% is not same as 10%.
So the probability of falling down is not next to nil, just a
probability of going back to the spiritual world is also not next to
nil (Bg 4.10).

Nitya-baddha doesn't mean that one can't be delivered from the
material world, rather that one is prone to fall down even after being
delivered. Srila Prabhupada said that our mood should be that of a
helpless baby completely dependent on his/her mother, and a baby is
always prone to fall down even when able to take a few steps on its
own.

Being a fragmental portion of marginal energy (tatastha shakti), I am
always prone to fall even after being liberated. If the probability to
exercise my free will in the liberated state is next to nil, it is
almost as if I don't have free will. And since I do have free will, it
is likely that I might misuse it again in the future though I have no
intentions of doing so.

While not desiring to fall down, I might fall down even after getting
liberation, but I feel confident that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his
empowered associates will surely deliver me again, and I can be of
some service as they relish audarya bhava. My nitya-lila might not be
to be an eternal associate of manjaris in the spiritual world, but I
can at least be a vulnerable and fallible nitya-baddha jiva that gives
pleasure to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his empowered associates when
they show their mercy in repeatedly delivering me if I were to fall
down again and again despite not desiring to do so.

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:28:18 +0530
From:	Shyamananda Dasa

Pranams Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada ki Jaya!

The number of jivas is infinite as described in Svetasvatara Upanisad 5.9 

 Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatataḥ kalpitasya, bhāgo jīvaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa anantyāya kalpate. 

Also by Srila Prabhupada in the following texts

And Vyāsadeva's father, Parāśara, is also a great sage, and he writes in his books of religiosity, aham tvaṁ ca tathānye. .. "we—you, I and the various other living entities—are all transcendental, although in material bodies. Now we are fallen into the ways of the three modes of material nature according to our different karma. As such, some are on higher levels, and some are in the lower nature. The higher and lower natures exist due to ignorance and are being manifested in an infinite number of living entities.(B.G. 13.5 purport)

By mental speculation, one is more likely to simply reach a point of frustration and confusion and conclude, "Oh, God is zero." But if God is zero, how are so many figures emanating from Him? As the Vedānta says (janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]), "Everything is generating from the Supreme." Therefore the Supreme cannot be zero. We have to study how so many forms, so many infinite living entities, are being generated from the Supreme. This is also explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, which is the study of ultimate knowledge. The word veda means "knowledge," and anta means "ultimate." Ultimate knowledge is knowledge of the Supreme Lord.( Path of Perfection Ch.4)

I agree with remaining part but we should not desire to make Mahaprabhu descend in this material world to deliver us again and again but rather desire to eternally engage in His bhakti either here or in the spiritual world. We should take part in His audarya lila by becoming instruments in his hand to spread His mercy or audarya and not remaining averse to His mission. That would be misuse of audarya.

"That evening, Prabhupāda took a short walk around New Mayapur, and afterward he sat down under a tree and gave a brief talk. When he asked for questions, one devotee said, 'In the Guru-vandana, it says that the spiritual master is our guru life after life. So if we don't make it back to Godhead in this lifetime, does it mean that you will come back to save us?' Śrīla Prabhupāda put down his fist on the little table in front of him and said sternly, 'You make it in this lifetime. Don't make me come back!"'(Srila Prabhupada and disciples in Germany Ch.18)

Hare Krishna!

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:30:54 -0700
From:	Radhananda (Dasa) BVKS

Dear Shyamananda Prabhu,

Namonamah. Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Many times words like infinite, ever-increasing, unlimited, and innumerable are interchangeably used. And in most cases, it is fine to use them interchangeably but for certain philosophical discussions like the one we are currently having it is important to make the distinction between these words. The word 'ananta' in the Svetasvatara Upanisad verse that you quoted in its true sense translates as 'unlimited' and not 'infinite'.  I will attempt to explain the distinction here:

• Infinity: a theoretical concept with no existence in reality. Sri Krsna's ever-increasing love for Srimati Radhika aspires for and tends to infinity but never reaches it just as the end of the number line can never be reached.
• Ever-increasing: Sri Krsna's love for Srimati Radhika increases every moment
  
• Finite: The ever-increasing love of Sri Krsna's for Srimati Radhika is still finite at any given moment. Similarly, since souls can't be created or destroyed they are also finite in number.
  
• Unlimited (ananta): While the souls are finite in number, and the love of Sri Krsna for Srimati Radhika is also finite at any given moment both of them are still inconceivably and unlimitedly large, so much so that even Ananta Sesa with His unlimited hoods can't describe or find the limit in the lifetime of Brahma
• Innumerable: While something unlimited is impossible even for Ananta Sesa to describe, for a limited jiva like me I can't even count the limited number of hairs on my limited head, and thus conveniently call it innumerable (since I can't determine a number for it). Though the unlimited is also innumerable, the converse isn't true, i.e., everything that is innumerable is not necessarily unlimited.

In regard to falling down from the spiritual world, no jiva aspires to fall down so that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu can experience audarya bhava. Indeed the jiva in Goloka Vrindavana has no conception of the material world, or that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Under the influence of yoga-maya the jiva doesn't know the true position of Sri Krsna, so that he can serve Him intimately, but because of not knowing His true position the jiva might momentarily think why Krsna gets all the attention, and this momentary distraction manifests as millions of lifetimes in the material world. Eventually, the jiva is delivered and regains the same state as the moment before he fell from the spiritual world, as if the jiva never left.

Thus the jiva never desires to fall down so that  Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu can experience audarya bhava. Rather the ontological position of nitya-baddha jiva is marginal (tatastha or prone to fall down) for the particular purpose of facilitating Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's pastimes in audarya bhava on the material plane. 

Hare Krsna

Your Servant,

Radhananda Dasa

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:58:46 +0530
From:	Shyamananda Dasa

Pranams Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada ki Jaya!

Where is the proof that the number of jivas is finite? 

You say 》Similarly, since souls can't be created or destroyed they are also finite in number.《

But Srila Prabhupada says that according to Vedanta sutra infinite jivas are emanating or being "created" from Krishna.

I quote again

"We have to study how so many forms, so many infinite living entities, are being generated from the Supreme. This is also explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, which is the study of ultimate knowledge."

(Path of Perfection Ch4)

Hare Krishna!

[BVKS Sanga]

Subject:	Re: Karya Vaikuntha
Date:	Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:08:28 -0700
From:	Radhananda (Dasa) BVKS

Dear Shyamananda Prabhu,
Namonamah. Jaya Srila Prabhupada

The pramana for finite jivas has already been quoted by your grace --- Svetasvatara Upanisad 5.9. There are two potential meanings of 'ananta'. Let us consider which one is relevant in the context of our discussion.

(1) ananta: that which has no limit

The only possible way that something doesn't have a limit is if the limit is constantly increasing in size or quantity. For the number of souls to be tending towards infinity, their count will need to be always increasing. Or in other words, new souls need to be created all the time. But this violates Bg 2.12 (never was a time that the soul didn't exist) and Bg 2.20 (For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval). Thus the interpretation that souls are infinite in numbers as in they are always increasing in the count is not correct.

(2) ananta: that which whose limit can't be ascertained

Since souls are not being continuously created, they must be limited in numbers. But this limit must be inconceivably large that there are no words or units to describe such a large number. In fact, it must be so large that even Ananta Sesa with His unlimited hoods can't describe this quantity in the life of Brahma. This interpretation is appropriate since it doesn't violate the constraint that the souls never come into being and are eternally existing.

The quote from Path of Perfection doesn't use the word "infinite" to suggest that souls are continuously being created. In fact, there is no indication in SB 1.1.1 (janmādy asya yataḥ) that souls are continuously being created. It simply states that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the source of all creation, sustenance, and destruction.

In order to not drag this conversation "unlimitedly" (pun intended), we can define the criteria to bring this to the conclusion:

(1) If there is a clear sastric reference which states that new souls are continuously created (either every moment or periodically), and it doesn't violate Bg 2.12 and Bg 2.20, we can ascertain that the number of souls tends to infinity.

(2) if such a clear sastric reference is not immediately available, it doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist. But until such a quote is found we can tentatively accept that souls are finite in number (though the number inconceivably large that it can't be ascertained - ananta).

I hope this is acceptable. Kindly correct in case of any discrepancies.

Hare Krsna

Your Servant,
Radhananda Dasa

> Subject: Re: Karya Vaikuntha
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:58:46 +0530