Fwd: FW: Council Transportation Committee (CTC) Meeting - 6/4/2024, 6:30 p.m. - Plaza Conference Room, Mountain View City Hall and Video Conference

[Anthony Montes]

Friends,

On a somewhat related note (Item 5.1) friends, I just met with the CEO of Vayu Robotics, which is developing an autonomous robot that would travel in slow-speed roads and in bike lanes (Unlike the full sized cars Nero is developing for delivery of goods, and the sidewalk robots we've seen already). It's an interesting concept you should check out: https://www.vayurobotics.com/

He said they trained the AI model using simulated and real-world bicycle facilities, traffic patterns, and infrastructure. They created a bicycle with sensors and cameras and rode around to help the AI collect data.

Any thoughts on sharing the bike lane with Vayu? 

Best,

Anthony Montes | he/him/his

Associate Director of Advocacy and Development

Cell: 408-694-8848 | LCI # 7,038

Together we can make our community better through biking: Ways to Give

Join a Local Team!

Make an Appointment with Me! 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Whyte, Brandon <Brando...@mountainview.gov>
Date: Fri, May 31, 2024 at 10:19 AM
Subject: FW: Council Transportation Committee (CTC) Meeting - 6/4/2024, 6:30 p.m. - Plaza Conference Room, Mountain View City Hall and Video Conference
To:

All,

 

You may be interested in the below agenda for the CTC meeting on Tuesday.

 

Hope you are well,

 

Brandon Whyte Active Transportation Planner / Planificador de transporte activo Public Works / Trabajos públicos Brando...@MountainView.gov 650-903-6525| MountainView.gov Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | AskMV

 

 

 

Hello,

The agenda packet the meeting of the Council Transportation Committee (June 4, 2024) is available now.  The meeting will be held at the Plaza Conference Room, Mountain View City Hall, and via Video Conference at 6:30 p.m.

This meeting is being conducted with a virtual component.  Anyone wishing to address the Council Transportation Committee virtually may join the meeting at: https://mountainview.zoom.us/j/89662656999, or by dialing (669) 900-9128 and entering Webinar ID: 896 6265 6999.

The meeting packet includes:

Agenda – June 4, 2024

• Item 4.1 – Approve the CTC Meeting Minutes of January 30, 2024
• Item 5.1 – Personal Delivery Device Program Update
• Item 5.2 – California Street (West) Complete Street Improvements, Pilot, Project 21-40—Performance Metrics
• Item 5.3 – Vision Zero Action Plan and Local Road Safety Plan

 

Public Works Department 650-903-6311 | MountainView.gov Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | AskMV

 

 

[Chris Parry]

I don’t have any concerns with sharing the bike lane with these vehicles so long as they are transparent about any safety issues that come up.

I understand that these vehicles are all in the R&D stage right now.  But at some point, if there is a real business plan centered around delivery vehicles in bike lanes, then these folks could be a useful advocate for more bike lanes.

On May 31, 2024, at 4:45 PM, Anthony Montes <ant...@bikesiliconvalley.org> wrote:

Friends,

On a somewhat related note (Item 5.1) friends, I just met with the CEO of Vayu Robotics, which is developing an autonomous robot that would travel in slow-speed roads and in bike lanes (Unlike the full sized cars Nero is developing for delivery of goods, and the sidewalk robots we've seen already). It's an interesting concept you should check out: https://www.vayurobotics.com/

He said they trained the AI model using simulated and real-world bicycle facilities, traffic patterns, and infrastructure. They created a bicycle with sensors and cameras and rode around to help the AI collect data.

Any thoughts on sharing the bike lane with Vayu? 

Best,

Anthony Montes | he/him/his

Associate Director of Advocacy and Development

Cell: 408-694-8848 | LCI # 7,038

Together we can make our community better through biking: Ways to Give

Join a Local Team!

Make an Appointment with Me! 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Whyte, Brandon <Brando...@mountainview.gov>
Date: Fri, May 31, 2024 at 10:19 AM
Subject: FW: Council Transportation Committee (CTC) Meeting - 6/4/2024, 6:30 p.m. - Plaza Conference Room, Mountain View City Hall and Video Conference
To:

All,

 

You may be interested in the below agenda for the CTC meeting on Tuesday.

 

Hope you are well,

 

<image001.jpg>

Brandon Whyte Active Transportation Planner / Planificador de transporte activo Public Works / Trabajos públicos Brando...@MountainView.gov 650-903-6525| MountainView.gov Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | AskMV

 

 

Hello,

The agenda packet the meeting of the Council Transportation Committee (June 4, 2024) is available now.  The meeting will be held at the Plaza Conference Room, Mountain View City Hall, and via Video Conference at 6:30 p.m.

This meeting is being conducted with a virtual component.  Anyone wishing to address the Council Transportation Committee virtually may join the meeting at: https://mountainview.zoom.us/j/89662656999, or by dialing (669) 900-9128 and entering Webinar ID: 896 6265 6999.

The meeting packet includes:

Agenda – June 4, 2024

• Item 4.1 – Approve the CTC Meeting Minutes of January 30, 2024
• Item 5.1 – Personal Delivery Device Program Update
• Item 5.2 – California Street (West) Complete Street Improvements, Pilot, Project 21-40—Performance Metrics
• Item 5.3 – Vision Zero Action Plan and Local Road Safety Plan

 

<image002.jpg>

Public Works Department 650-903-6311 | MountainView.gov Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | AskMV

 

 

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[Kevin Wang]

On Fri, May 31, 2024, 16:45 Anthony Montes <ant...@bikesiliconvalley.org> wrote:

Friends,

On a somewhat related note (Item 5.1) friends, I just met with the CEO of Vayu Robotics, which is developing an autonomous robot that would travel in slow-speed roads and in bike lanes (Unlike the full sized cars Nero is developing for delivery of goods, and the sidewalk robots we've seen already). It's an interesting concept you should check out: https://www.vayurobotics.com/

He said they trained the AI model using simulated and real-world bicycle facilities, traffic patterns, and infrastructure. They created a bicycle with sensors and cameras and rode around to help the AI collect data.

Any thoughts on sharing the bike lane with Vayu? 

My concern as always is speed limits. What is their top speed on sidewalks, through parks (because that's how they are connected to trails), trails, and bike lanes. 

Also how aggressive are they when they come across walkers blocking the trail 4 abreast? Some notification methods are better than others. Crowding People's personal space isn't good either. This is more to keep them from getting a negative image i.e. "robot nearly ran me over!"

- kjw

--

[Serge Bonte]

Let's also not forget these are delivery vehicles, upon reaching their destination they'll stop on the sidewalk or in the bike lane for 5-10mn until someone steps out of their house/apartment to retrieve their goods: blocking the lane by design :(

Serge

--

[Emil Abraham]

All,

I'm all for businesses working with the city. Some of the best public infrastructure in our city can be contributed to our relationship with businesses such as Google. We should use this as an opportunity for this business to leave a lasting, positive impact on Mountain View. What if we ask for the following:

1. Operating only on sidewalks/paths where there is ample space for the robot and a bicyclist/pedestrian/stroller/wheelchair to be side by side.
2. If they wish to operate on sidewalks/paths that don't meet the criteria mentioned in 1, perhaps they could help the city by providing design modifications for those paths to allow for that space.
   
3. If they aren't able to accomplish the criteria in 2, perhaps they could contribute to a city fund that would directly help the city to accomplish the criteria in 2.

This way, it feels more like a 2-way relationship.

Emil Abraham

On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 4:45 PM Anthony Montes <ant...@bikesiliconvalley.org> wrote:

--

[Chris Parry]

It looked to me like the City’s rules (current and proposed revisions) are designed to permit bots in the sidewalk or bike lane (attached)

This should really be a question of whether the bot operating in the bike lane is traveling at the speed and movement similar to other bikes.  If so, then it is not much different from encountering another cyclist in the bike lane, so we it shouldn’t be objectionable.

For a bot on the sidewalk, there is a 10 mph speed limit and 100 lb. weight limit.

I don’t think that we have any reason to second-guess Staff’s recommendations on delivery vehicles.  Staff has the benefit of the prior history dealing with robotic delivery vehicles.

Have y’all checked out the technical information on Vayu Robotics’ web site?  I couldn’t find a weight for the vehicle.   But for that size/shape, traveling at bike speeds, shouldn’t be threatening to us.  I am interested in what they are doing with “Vayu Sense” and what they are/aren’t capable of detecting — but that is really for my own understanding.  If they want help training the bot on bicyclists, I’m sure that we could find them some volunteers to ride by the vehicle.

If there are any other concerns about Vayu, I’m sure that they would be willing to share information on their safety protocols.

  

[Serge Bonte]

+1 to your proposal Emil (I'd also limit speed differential to 2/2.5 times on sidewalks as in previous pilot rather than the reckless proposed 4/5 times)

NACTO actually recognizes that issue of being able to pass safely and comfortably in bike lanes and has a working paper for "Allocating extra width to accommodate wider devices and passing"

https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/WP_designing_for_small_things_with_wheels_FINAL_March1-2023.pdf

  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/CAAP98F5NjmHPAgA9W6Rcc4GYcHymA1OYut-XPB__k%3DRdiznqOg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Anthony Montes]

Some more details:

• These bots are between 100-200 lbs, similar size as a bicyclists. 
• Their average speed is about 15 mph and prioritizes other users, programmed to yield the right of away to other bicyclists and pedestrians. 
• They can also be programmed to avoid certain areas during specific times with high-bicycle-and-pedestrian traffic. e.g areas near schools during pickup and drop off time.

Personally, I like how small it is compared to Nero and other self driving vehicles. I also like the idea of reducing door dash and Uber eats trips. Many of those drivers have gas-powered vehicles and are in a hurry to fulfill the next order. 

+1 Emil, I also think there’s a way to expand the utility of separated bikeways on street and in turn reclaim more space for bikes and multimodal transportation. Whatever it takes to get people to drive fewer miles to accomplish every day tasks! 

Best,

Anthony Montes | he/him/his

Associate Director of Advocacy and Development

Cell: 408-694-8848 | LCI # 7,038

Together we can make our community better through biking: Ways to Give

Join a Local Team!

Make an Appointment with Me! 

[April Webster]

I'm against these bots in the bike lane and have heard similar concerns from others who bicycle. After all of the effort that has been made to carve out space in the bike lanes for bots, this seems like moving backwards.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/CACrPd1XDnvwKSxtTBYVAx5tHCp%3DMG94%3DxFHGrZ7o%2BuOFWuVSvQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Serge Bonte]

Staff Report proposes the "bike lanes" robots  to be up to 500 pounds w/o cargo and to go up to 20mph (twice avg. bike speed?) , and the sidewalk robots to be up to 100 pounds w/o cargo and up to 10mph (FIVE times walking speed). Most of our bike lanes and sidewalks are simply too narrow to accommodate them without compromising active transportation safety/comfort.... which would only turn more people away from Active Transportation modes. To April's point it'd be a move backwards in Mountain View.

As far as being hurried to fill the next order, these bots will be just as hurried...it's a for profit delivery service.

Serge

[Terry Barton]

The only reason the bots (which are automated vehicles) want to use bike lanes and sidewalks is because they don't meet all the safety requirements to register as automobiles.  I don't see why they can't operate as automobiles in normal lanes.  Yes they can be smaller and lighter than the typical cars which makes them more economical to operate, but they should still be registered and required to use normal traffic lanes.  City streets don't have minimum speeds so they are allowed just like garbage trucks and school buses which also tend to drive under the speed limit.   I don't want to see DoorDash, UPS, Fedex, DHL, Uber, USPS, Lyft and Amazon all using the bike lanes and sidewalks for their automated vehicles.   Replacing a delivery person with automation of the vehicle and/or drone has advantages for people who own delivery companies, but I don't see why it means they should be in bike lanes and sidewalks.  If their automation is good, they should be more than capable of operating safely on roads.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/CAKj%2B2WwaO9zfsghTFyyyy5eRfEF%3Dyb8D-gXsHHZrBop4-ggs8A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Chris Parry]

1.  I can understand Serge’s concern regarding if these bots have parked in the bike lane and are blocking traffic.  But at this point, it isn’t clear to me how the Vayu bot handles stops (e.g., does it pull off to the side or block the lane?).

2.  I would strongly disagree with Emil’s concern about having more traffic in the bike lane.  An empty/under-utilized bike lane is a bad look for us when we ask cities to spend more resources on bike infrastructure.  We need traffic in the bike lane to justify these expenses.  From the cities’ p.o.v., human bicyclists are the goals, but they likely get some credit for VMT reduction from delivery bots too.

a.  Separately, I think it would be a mistake for us to ever argue against a project based on increased usage of the bike lane.  SVBC is constantly promoting events to increase traffic in the bike lanes (e.g, organized bike rides, bike to wherever days).

3. There are the safety concerns, for which we really don't have all the relevant information.  The city has some data based on past delivery vehicle projects.  Vayu has the technical details on what its bots can and cannot do.  I think it would be more productive for us to constructively engage with Vayu to better understand the technology.  And if have human riders ride past these bots helps them refine their training sets, that would be worthwhile for us to do.

a. Some of the safety questions in my mind relate to understanding the capabilities of these plenoptic sensors plus onboard software vs. the systems you would see on a mature autonomous vehicle (e.g., Waymo).

b. Saying that you have trained on a set of cyclists (e.g., 90% of expected encounters) is different from having a robust system that responds to everything that happens on the road.  We’ve seen with Cruise that it’s that last 10% that can lead to problems.

4. I don’t think it is in our interests to come across as Luddites or Chicken Little on delivery bots.  It is better to constructively engage unless we have specific evidence of a tangible safety risk.

<image001.jpg>

Brandon Whyte Active Transportation Planner / Planificador de transporte activo Public Works / Trabajos públicos Brando...@MountainView.gov 650-903-6525| MountainView.gov Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | AskMV

 

 

Hello,

The agenda packet the meeting of the Council Transportation Committee (June 4, 2024) is available now.  The meeting will be held at the Plaza Conference Room, Mountain View City Hall, and via Video Conference at 6:30 p.m.

This meeting is being conducted with a virtual component.  Anyone wishing to address the Council Transportation Committee virtually may join the meeting at: https://mountainview.zoom.us/j/89662656999, or by dialing (669) 900-9128 and entering Webinar ID: 896 6265 6999.

The meeting packet includes:

Agenda – June 4, 2024

• Item 4.1 – Approve the CTC Meeting Minutes of January 30, 2024
• Item 5.1 – Personal Delivery Device Program Update
• Item 5.2 – California Street (West) Complete Street Improvements, Pilot, Project 21-40—Performance Metrics
• Item 5.3 – Vision Zero Action Plan and Local Road Safety Plan

 

<image002.jpg>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/CAMANeTXxCnn0zx%3DsAjCLOcKZcVusVfPAmn9_yUu8Tc-ekayPwQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Serge Bonte]

1.  I can understand Serge’s concern regarding if these bots have parked in the bike lane and are blocking traffic.  But at this point, it isn’t clear to me how the Vayu bot handles stops (e.g., does it pull off to the side or block the lane?).

Pulling off to the side means going to the sidewalk, right? which implies two things: 1. an up to 500 pounds w/o cargo bot is able to "jump" the curb. 2. an up to to 500 pounds (w/o cargo) bot would then nagivate on and block the sidewalk? 

Neither of these implications is appealing to me.

[Chris Parry]

There is a difference between what the City allows (1) up to 500 lbs. and (2) the Vayu technology as described.   If they don’t need 500 lbs and don’t have plans to go to that weight, then I wouldn’t use that number.

(2) There is a gap between the rideable bike lane and the sidewalk.  There has always been that dreaded longitudinal joint off to the side.

I understand that some of the existing bike lanes are narrow.  I’d suggest that we use this to help push for wider bike lanes.

[Cliff Chambers]

Completely agree with April.  The precious space we have for all classes of bike lanes is for moving people and not for commercial gain.  I’m completely against bots in bike lanes.  Mike Kasperzak arranged for me to meet with the Vayu CEO, and I’ve it given it some thought over the past few months.   I’m all for the economic development strategies identified in staff report, but I share most of the concerns that we expressed at BPAC.

What they are proposed in the enhanced guidelines is for up to 500 lb bot traveling in the bike lanes.  We have worked hard for protected bike lanes.  We want to improve safety and perceptions are important.   A bot weighing 500 lbs going 15 mph could cause lots of damage and personal harm.   

A lot of what the bots are trying to do by utilizing the bike  could be accomplished with e-bikes and provide jobs at the same. 

Bottom line: bike lanes of all types should only utilized to move people! 

 

Cliff 

On Jun 3, 2024, at 3:11 PM, April Webster <apri...@gmail.com> wrote:

<image001.jpg>

Brandon Whyte Active Transportation Planner / Planificador de transporte activo Public Works / Trabajos públicos Brando...@MountainView.gov 650-903-6525| MountainView.gov Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | AskMV

 

 

Hello,

The agenda packet the meeting of the Council Transportation Committee (June 4, 2024) is available now.  The meeting will be held at the Plaza Conference Room, Mountain View City Hall, and via Video Conference at 6:30 p.m.

This meeting is being conducted with a virtual component.  Anyone wishing to address the Council Transportation Committee virtually may join the meeting at: https://mountainview.zoom.us/j/89662656999, or by dialing (669) 900-9128 and entering Webinar ID: 896 6265 6999.

The meeting packet includes:

Agenda – June 4, 2024

• Item 4.1 – Approve the CTC Meeting Minutes of January 30, 2024
• Item 5.1 – Personal Delivery Device Program Update
• Item 5.2 – California Street (West) Complete Street Improvements, Pilot, Project 21-40—Performance Metrics
• Item 5.3 – Vision Zero Action Plan and Local Road Safety Plan

 

<image002.jpg>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/CAMANeTXxCnn0zx%3DsAjCLOcKZcVusVfPAmn9_yUu8Tc-ekayPwQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Kevin Wang]

On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 3:09 PM Anthony Montes <ant...@bikesiliconvalley.org> wrote:

Some more details:

• These bots are between 100-200 lbs, similar size as a bicyclists. 
• Their average speed is about 15 mph and prioritizes other users, programmed to yield the right of away to other bicyclists and pedestrians. 
• They can also be programmed to avoid certain areas during specific times with high-bicycle-and-pedestrian traffic. e.g areas near schools during pickup and drop off time.

Personally, I like how small it is compared to Nero and other self driving vehicles.

Vehicles should vary depending on their intended purpose. Delivering one to ten pizzas? could easily be done with a small 200 lb vehicle like vayu demonstrates. Delivering 5-10 bags of groceries? the Nero is bigger and about the right size.

There's a lot at play here, and we won't know what the right set of features is until the space is explored.

I have my doubts about <200 lb vehicles; they're too easy to knock over or otherwise disrupt by teenagers and anarchists.

 

I also like the idea of reducing door dash and Uber eats trips. Many of those drivers have gas-powered vehicles and are in a hurry to fulfill the next order. 

anecdata supporting this: 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dashmart+By+Doordash/@37.3292607,-121.8863913,85m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x808fccb0c0cc1e47:0xa971000986945836!8m2!3d37.3295623!4d-121.8858112!16s%2Fg%2F11y1cycxb3?entry=ttu

"Dashmart By Doordash" appears to be a "mini mart" dedicated to DoorDash-(ing/ers). At night, there are cars parked blocking the sidewalk, blocking the parking spots, blocking the slow lane, and generally being a nuisance idling waiting for their pickup. I was biking in the opposite direction, so I didn't spend any time observing their movements, just noticed the traffic clog. otoh, if you used the "driveway" instead of the sidewalk, you could (for free) use the public space for probably 5-8 robots, plus have them wait around the corner easily. (or 3-4 per car parking spot). No, I'm not holding out hope that it'll be legally mandated that they load vehicles off the street, but most of the time parking excess vehicles two blocks away is just fine, assuming <10 "waiting" vehicles. I don't know what happens if it blossoms into 100.

I didn't have time before, but watching their videos on http://vayurobotics.com; YIKES. driving in the door zone, hugging cars, and zipping past an unloading flatbed -- on the right? so much potential for something to go wrong.

imho route planning (for the next 100 ft) for a bicycle is harder than for a car, because you have MORE things to dodge. At least computers can look forward, back, left AND right all at the same time, unlike humans.

   - Kevin

+1 Emil, I also think there’s a way to expand the utility of separated bikeways on street and in turn reclaim more space for bikes and multimodal transportation. Whatever it takes to get people to drive fewer miles to accomplish every day tasks! 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/CACrPd1XDnvwKSxtTBYVAx5tHCp%3DMG94%3DxFHGrZ7o%2BuOFWuVSvQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[April Webster]

Some more thoughts regarding this proposal.

At the bare minimum, I would like to see a thorough and unbiased cost-benefit analysis and risk assessment. Failing to do so, especially given the potential risks, strikes me as negligent. For example, I'd like to understand how the company intends to address requirements such as bicyclist safety and perception of safety (both of which will impact modality shift and bike lane usage), potential bot-bicyclist conflicts, software/hardware bugs and failures, yielding right-of-way, etc. 

In terms of the potential data delivery bots could collect, these are the types of questions I would typically be asked in my day job:

• What's the use case for collecting this data? For example, how would that data benefit active transportation infrastructure?
• What specific data would be collected? What's the expected accuracy of the data? What's the granularity of the data?
• What's the cost of collecting this data? Could this data be collected more cheaply/easily using a different process or technology? (i.e., not everything is a nail requiring the hammer of more sophisticated technology)
• If video data is collected, how would data privacy and security be mitigated? Here's Google's policies for comparison.
• Data privacy concerns aside, would the bots be able to collect the more valuable data we require to understand bike lane usage by different user groups. This is the entire basis behind the AAA classification -- to address the requirements and use cases for those marginalized communities identified by AAA, namely children, seniors, women, people of colour, and low-income users. Counts of bicycle users without additional metadata about who those users are isn't nearly as valuable to us.

Regarding concerns around the perception of demanding a more thorough and unbiased analysis, I believe the industry is changing with recent backlash against those who rush into using technology at the cost of not adequately addressing safety, bias (including racism) and ethics. Theranos, Google, Boeing, and Waymo are a few examples that immediately spring to mind.

I'd like to describe one potential scenario we could realistically face with the introduction of delivery bots into bike lanes:

What happens when a child instinctively weaves out of the bike lane and into the path of an unsuspecting car to avoid a delivery bot that has suddenly stopped in front of her/him/them? Is there a chance the driver of that car might not be paying attention and not notice the child until it's late? What about a driver that's driving too fast to react in time to stop?

In terms of this being a realistic scenario, I would ask you to think about how many times you've been driving and had someone veer into your lane by accident. Have you ever unintentionally reacted by pulling into the lane on the other side of you, at least partially? It can be challenging to avoid the instinct to move out of the path of danger even if it results in you moving into the path of another danger. It happens, and it's our responsibility to think about these types of scenarios and do what we can to prevent them.

I'd also like to point out the issues that have been experienced with a very similar technology -- self-driving cars. San Francisco recently filed a lawsuit suing California over unsafe and disruptive self-driving cars. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/9D94C929-5E19-4EB4-94D4-352209329745%40gmail.com.

[John Scarboro]

Hi All,

I agree with Cliff and April. I do not like the idea of having robots travelling in bike lanes (or on sidewalks). We have lots more asphalt already for mechanized conveyances.

This is an even worse idea when they are beta testing their equipment and software with all of us as unwilling participants in this experiment. They give us additional risk to absorb and take up our community facilities we have worked long and hard to establish and make safer. Then they rake in the profit or venture capital. It’s a bad deal for the rest of us. They should not be on the bike infrastructure and if they are using our community infrastructure of any type, they need to pay their fair share. If they can't meet the safety requirements for traveling in vehicular traffic lanes and still have a good business plan, they don't have a good business plan. We should not have to absorb their externalized cost and risk.

Bike lanes and sidewalks are for people and should remain so. These organizations need to pay their fair share for the community resources they take and their externalized risk they push onto others.

John Scarboro

PS. Robots in the bike lane is vastly different than SVBC or other biking events. Staff and all of us should make that distinction.

> On Jun 3, 2024, at 4:24 PM, Cliff Chambers <cliffch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Completely agree with April. The precious space we have for all classes of bike lanes is for moving people and not for commercial gain. I’m completely against bots in bike lanes. Mike Kasperzak arranged for me to meet with the Vayu CEO, and I’ve it given it some thought over the past few months. I’m all for the economic development strategies identified in staff report, but I share most of the concerns that we expressed at BPAC.
>
> What they are proposed in the enhanced guidelines is for up to 500 lb bot traveling in the bike lanes. We have worked hard for protected bike lanes. We want to improve safety and perceptions are important. A bot weighing 500 lbs going 15 mph could cause lots of damage and personal harm.
>
> A lot of what the bots are trying to do by utilizing the bike could be accomplished with e-bikes and provide jobs at the same.
>
> Bottom line: bike lanes of all types should only utilized to move people!
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 3, 2024, at 3:11 PM, April Webster <apri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm against these bots in the bike lane and have heard similar concerns from others who bicycle. After all of the effort that has been made to carve out space in the bike lanes for bots, this seems like moving backwards.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2024 at 3:09 PM Anthony Montes <ant...@bikesiliconvalley.org> wrote:
>> Some more details:
>> •
>> These bots are between 100-200 lbs, similar size as a bicyclists.
>> • Their average speed is about 15 mph and prioritizes other users, programmed to yield the right of away to other bicyclists and pedestrians.
>> • They can also be programmed to avoid certain areas during specific times with high-bicycle-and-pedestrian traffic. e.g areas near schools during pickup and drop off time.
>> Personally, I like how small it is compared to Nero and other self driving vehicles. I also like the idea of reducing door dash and Uber eats trips. Many of those drivers have gas-powered vehicles and are in a hurry to fulfill the next order.
>>
>> +1 Emil, I also think there’s a way to expand the utility of separated bikeways on street and in turn reclaim more space for bikes and multimodal transportation. Whatever it takes to get people to drive fewer miles to accomplish every day tasks!
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Anthony Montes | he/him/his
>> Associate Director of Advocacy and Development
>> Cell: 408-694-8848 | LCI # 7,038
>>
>>
>>

>> Together we can make our community better through biking: Ways to Give
>> Join a Local Team!
>> Make an Appointment with Me!
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 1:28 PM Serge Bonte <sbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> +1 to your proposal Emil (I'd also limit speed differential to 2/2.5 times on sidewalks as in previous pilot rather than the reckless proposed 4/5 times)
>>
>> NACTO actually recognizes that issue of being able to pass safely and comfortably in bike lanes and has a working paper for "Allocating extra width to accommodate wider devices and passing"
>>
>> https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/WP_designing_for_small_things_with_wheels_FINAL_March1-2023.pdf
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 8:52 AM Emil Abraham <emilabr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I'm all for businesses working with the city. Some of the best public infrastructure in our city can be contributed to our relationship with businesses such as Google. We should use this as an opportunity for this business to leave a lasting, positive impact on Mountain View. What if we ask for the following:
>> • Operating only on sidewalks/paths where there is ample space for the robot and a bicyclist/pedestrian/stroller/wheelchair to be side by side.
>> • If they wish to operate on sidewalks/paths that don't meet the criteria mentioned in 1, perhaps they could help the city by providing design modifications for those paths to allow for that space.
>> • If they aren't able to accomplish the criteria in 2, perhaps they could contribute to a city fund that would directly help the city to accomplish the criteria in 2.
>>
>> This way, it feels more like a 2-way relationship.
>>
>> Emil Abraham
>>
>> On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 4:45 PM Anthony Montes <ant...@bikesiliconvalley.org> wrote:
>> Friends,
>>
>> On a somewhat related note (Item 5.1) friends, I just met with the CEO of Vayu Robotics, which is developing an autonomous robot that would travel in slow-speed roads and in bike lanes (Unlike the full sized cars Nero is developing for delivery of goods, and the sidewalk robots we've seen already). It's an interesting concept you should check out: https://www.vayurobotics.com/
>>
>> He said they trained the AI model using simulated and real-world bicycle facilities, traffic patterns, and infrastructure. They created a bicycle with sensors and cameras and rode around to help the AI collect data.
>>
>> Any thoughts on sharing the bike lane with Vayu?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Anthony Montes | he/him/his
>> Associate Director of Advocacy and Development
>> Cell: 408-694-8848 | LCI # 7,038
>>
>>
>>

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[Ken Kershner]

+1 to April's cost/risk questions. 

An opportunity for bike lane maintenance and data could be a match for such automated delivery bots that are designed for this second purpose. 

Imagine if pavement debris in the bike lanes could be identified AND cleaned by the bots.  This is a new issue for the ECR bikeways - Caltrans is poorly resourced to perform bikeway debris cleaning and wants the cities to take this responsibility.  Cities are also poorly resourced and liability avoidant -- imagine the bollard and temporary curbs need replacement/repair.  Could the bots serve this new unmet set of maintenance needs?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/d/msgid/mountainview/CAMANeTUBJ2QEgStfoP9Tejh_TrUe_1jj7o5zHJS7%3DN97aQ0OWA%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Ken Kershner  |  Co-Founder & CEO

Cell 650-248-9059 | Email ke...@triomotors.co

Trio Motors | Menlo Park

[April Webster]

I would suggest we exercise caution in conflating the two use cases. In the bike lane maintenance use case, I would expect the city to have control over the timing of a bike lane closure to ensure it's done during low peak usage. I'd also expect they would be able to advertise a closure with sufficient notice and would hope they'd put appropriate signage in place. I would also expect they would be able to put out cones to make a new temporary bike lane so as not to disrupt availability of the bike lane.

As an aside, there's a company in Sunnyvale developing a low-cost people-powered prototype for a bike lane cleaner: https://www.bikelanesweeper.com. This solution, while being low-tech, is an economical and environmentally-friendly one. The owner presented at the CalBike Summit. I'm not sure if the City would hire someone to operate such a device, but they hire folks to manually mark lanes for construction so perhaps it wouldn't be an issue. 

[April Webster]

A few folks brought up bike delivery as an alternative to robot delivery. Looks like Doordash is moving in that direction: https://dasher.doordash.com/en-us/about/bike-dashing. Some benefits they identify for delivery people:

• Save on costs. As a Bike Dasher, you won’t have to worry about gas, fuel, or car maintenance. That means more of your money stays in your pocket.
  
• Faster routes. Earn more. Delivering on a bike allows Dashers to take faster routes. The more deliveries you complete, the more money you earn.
  

[Chris Parry]

Depending on the safety data, the two could be interchangeable — bike courier vs. robot.  Both seem to occupy similar space and have similar weight.

A lot of that depends on how well the bot is implemented.

Clearly there are advantages to automating things and avoiding the labor expenses.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 4, 2024, at 7:46 PM, April Webster <apri...@gmail.com> wrote:



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