Bike Friday Allroad?

[Personal]

After many years of progressively skinnier tires, I’ve become more interested in gravel riding and wider tires. I’m thinking about supplementing my 451-wheeled Air Friday with a 406-wheeled machine. My idea is to buy a used BF with 406 wheels in my size, and adapt it.

Can anyone explain the difference between the NWT and the Pocket Llama? They look very similar on the BF web site. Is one lighter than the other?

IIRC, I would need a particular brake lever (the Tektro 520) to use V-brakes with dropped bars. Or, probably better, ditch the V-brakes and get some reasonable cantilevers, which are easier to adjust and give clearance over the mudguards.

Anyone want to contribute their wisdom?

Andrew P Black

[Daniel Santamaria]

The llama allows for fatter tyres than the NWT. NWT can support up to 1.75" tyres only, which is what i run on my NWT. The llama also has a higher bottom bracket, making it better for offroad, although small wheels are not as good offroad as larger wheels generally. 

I believe (but am unsure) that the llama tubing is stouter than the normal NWT, but the same as the heavy rider version of the NWT. 

The standard llama is heavier than the standard NWT. 

I have a NWT, and take it on all sorts of roads, but no technical offroad. With 1.75" tyres, it's fine on dirt roads, etc. If most of your touring is offroad, perhaps the llama with 2" tyres is a better choice. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XkHfJlgZNWgsE2G72

cheers,

Dan

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To post to this group, send email to y...@bikefriday.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/group/yak/.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/DA63FE53-2BC8-40CB-A45B-7C3877FD1841%40gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/optout.

[Joseph Bernard]

Do you need your dirt bike to be folding/collapsible like a BF? That design with the detachable stem would not be my first choice for singletrack. 

Joe Bernard

[Dave Thomson]

Since you mentioned mudguards, the widest tired I can fit under the fenders on my large frame NWT are 42x406 (1.6”). 

Regards,

Dave Thomson

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/CAF2Mo4bVq6jpPqo9_Wm71Vc%2Bne2LEG38f6cxdBy48pGhyL%3D8MA%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Thurston]

On 1/12/2018 10:31 AM, Personal wrote:
> Can anyone explain the difference between the NWT and the
> Pocket Llama? They look very similar on the BF web site.
> Is one lighter than the other?

This question has come up before here on the YAK. In May of
2016, Brian Sorensen answered the question this way:

"The Llama [is] a NWT with wider tire clearance, a 2cm
higher BB, and beefier tubing. It's the bike for people
spending most of their time off-road."

We have both a New World Tourist and Llama in our family, so
I feel qualified to yak a little more about them.

I rode my Llama as a trail bike for many years. It wore 2+
inch Ritchey Z-Max tires, and titanium flat bars. A couple
of years ago, my interests (and aging body) changed and I
re-rigged it as a drop-bar road bike. It now sports Schwlabe
Shredda tires, and Tektro 520 brake levers pulling the same
V-brakes.

See my "Mini ride report - Utah" from early December for an
example of how I've used it.
> https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msg/yak/Khjz-zrNlG0/dGHmVwl7AAAJ

Look in the 'old' YAK archives:
> http://mx.bikefriday.com/pipermail/yak/

for some of my notes relating to tire width and "all road"
performance. I suggest late April 2016 and mid to late April
2017.

I rode single tracks with this bike (with flat bars) for
years. At the time I was running 170mm cranks (now 165mm),
and the BB height kept them clear of terrain. Note: If
you're expecting to roll over everything, and want your
suspension to soak any bumps, a Llama is NOT the tool you
should choose. The 406 wheels have a smaller maximum
obstacle-height than 559 or 622 wheels. After converting to
drop-bars and smoother tires, I find pavement, gravel, and
double track easily handled. I've done a _little_ single
track on it, and found the drop bars and bar-end shifters
really got in the way. I now avoid single-track when
choosing routes.

After figuring out my bar position, I had Bike Friday build
me a new steering mast for my Llama. It's lighter (and
better looking) than the straight stalk and threadless stem
combo I had rigged up. I hang my "handlebar" bag from the
steering mast with a KlickFix adapter.
> http://www.velofred.net/klickfix-rixen-kaul-caddy-handlebar-adapter-p-276.html

Doing so:
+ keeps the bars free for packing
+ puts the bag lower and closer
I recommend this arrangement for anyone who wants a front bag.

My wife's NWT shipped with Schwalbe Marathon tires, Ergo
Brifters, and mini-V brakes. To be fairly compatible with my
Llama, I've re-rigged hers to wear Tioga PowerBlock tires,
and Tektro 520 levers pulling standard V-brakes, and her
original 170mm cranks. She'll never travel single-tracks, so
the slightly lower BB height is no concern. I do notice the
smaller diameter steering mast of her NWT is much more
flexible than my Llama. I prefer the feel of my Llama, but
the flex in hers hasn't been a problem.

Both of our bikes are fitted with Chris King "GripNut"
headsets. I duno if they get the credit, but we've never had
any problems with poor steering or loosening headsets.

>
> IIRC, I would need a particular brake lever (the Tektro
> 520) to use V-brakes with dropped bars. Or, probably
> better, ditch the V-brakes and get some reasonable
> cantilevers, which are easier to adjust and give
> clearance over the mudguards.

Going cantilever is an interesting theory, but I suggest
not. I'm not hating on cantilevers. I like 'em a lot, but
V-brakes are a better fit for the Fridays. Here's why:

Packing: Even the narrowest of cantilevers are wider than
the widest V-brake. When I'm stuffing my bike in the
suitcase, I want narrow bits and pieces.

Cable hanger: When we had our bikes built, V-brakes were the
'new' thing. Being a skeptic, I had ours built with housing
stops for tried-and-true cantilevers. Bike Friday will build
your bike with stops, but it will cost you more.

Cable routing: Stupid me. That rear housing stop I spec'd
for my Llama can never be used. {rolls eyes} There aren't
any cantilever arms made that could clear my cranks! To put
cantilevers on the back of a Friday, you'll have to put 'em
on the seat stays and revert to the ancient "mixte" cable
routing that dips under the BB and comes around a pulley
behind the seat mast. ICK!

I'm pretty sure you'll be happier _not_ having cantilever
brakes. And consider that my V-brakes are not the factor
limiting the width of tire I can fit on either bike. The
knobs on my old Ritheys hit the frame before they hit the
brakes. My humble advice is to stick with V, or go with disc.

--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[John Thurston]

On 1/12/2018 11:16 AM, Joseph Bernard wrote:
> Do you need your dirt bike to be folding/collapsible like
> a BF? That design with the detachable stem would not be
> my first choice for singletrack.

Not my first choice either, but not because of the
detachable stem. I rode single track with mine for years,
and had no concerns with the stem, mast, or bars. It was
great being able to fold my trail bike up and drop it into
the boot of my little car. I don't single-track it any more,
but my body wore out before the bike did.

The difficulty I had (and still have) on single track is the
wheel size. A 406 wheel just can't clear as large an
obstacle as a 559 or 622 wheel. Rocks and logs a 'big wheel'
bike can roll over, become 'dismount' obstructions for me.
Give me a clear track, and my Llama is awesome! But throw a
few logs across it, and toss a couple of stair-height rocks,
and it ain't as much fun.

[Daniel Santamaria]

i can get 406 x 1.75" under my mudguards on my nwt. maybe your tyres true width is a little more. mine are schwalbe marathons.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/00893874-B574-45CC-AD5F-5DF0EA05092F%40icloud.com.

[John Thurston]

On 1/12/2018 1:36 PM, Daniel Santamaria wrote:
> i can get 406 x 1.75" under my mudguards on my nwt. maybe
> your tyres true width is a little more. mine are schwalbe
> marathons.

There is also the question of which mudguards each is
running, and how much space you want between the guard and
the tyre. Each of us has our own threshold, and that
threshold can vary by bike, road, load, tyre, and purpose.

On one big-wheel bike, I ride with as little as 4mm
clearance. I don't like it, but {shrug} I kinda gotta do it
to get enough tyre volume for the load it carries. I like to
keep my Fridays with about twice that, as the mudguards
aren't as robust and get knocked about in transit.

[Andrew P. Black]

> On 12 Jan 2018, at 12:16 , Joseph Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you need your dirt bike to be folding/collapsible like a BF? That design with the detachable stem would not be my first choice for singletrack.

I have the equivalent of what I’m seeking to build as a non-folding bike. I just find that the ability to take my bike with me in a convenient package means that I ride more.

While I’m asking, in addition tthe NWT and the Llama, there were to now-discontinued Crusoe and GNU. The GNU, I think was a suspension bike, but the Crusoe looks basically quite similar to the NWT.

Andrew

[Dave Thomson]

> On Jan 12, 2018, at 14:49, John Thurston <y...@thurstons.us> wrote:
>
> There is also the question of which mudguards each is running, and how much space you want between the guard and the tyre. Each of us has our own threshold, and that threshold can vary by bike, road, load, tyre, and purpose.

Very true. I am running older (before the break-away stays) Planet Bike full coverage fenders. Since I do occasionally ride gravel and double track a little more clearance is good.

Current tires are Schwalbe Marathon Supremes but they have been discontinued in the 406 size. Once I go through my last reserve set I will probably try the Tioga PowerBlocks. Finding 406 tires with compliant sidewalls that come in a 40 or 42 width is a challenge.

[Geof Gee]

I’ve used 20x1.75 Tioga Power Blocks under planet bike fenders on my NWT. Without fenders, I’ve tested out Schwalbe Big Apples 2” and they were a tight fit but did work.

-G
Arlington, VA.

Sent from my IPhone

[Brian Ogilvie]

I was able to get a tire marked 20x1.95/54-406 on my NWT's front wheel, with the Planet Bike fender. Here's a snapshot:

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/slideshow/?o=1mr&doc_id=7107&page=51&v=5J

I don't recall the manufacturer; I was on tour with a pair of defective tires, both of which developed tears in the casing, so I picked up whatever BMX tires were available in western Ireland.

Brian

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 11:39 PM, Geof Gee <geo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve used 20x1.75 Tioga Power Blocks under planet bike fenders on my NWT.   Without fenders, I’ve tested out Schwalbe Big Apples 2” and they were a tight fit but did work.

--

Brian W. Ogilvie <bwog...@gmail.com>
Hadley, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pobox.com/~ogilvie

[Peteholden]

Not to mention that the small wheel size is just TERRIBLE going over ruts, rivlets, washouts or any unevenness on a trail.  The wheel literally sinks into the hole, where a larger wheel will roll over or thru.  I got the Llama as a MBT, and didn't realize that design flaw until tested.

Its a great City bike though.

.     _/\_

Peter Holden

H-415-626-9465
C-415-866-6191

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To post to this group, send email to y...@bikefriday.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/group/yak/.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/8e2bfc81-6eaa-7269-c8e6-2b8fed9c4d3e%40thurstons.us.

[John Thurston]

> On Jan 14, 2018, at 5:33 PM, 'Peteholden' via Bike Friday Yak! <y...@bikefriday.com> wrote:
>
> The wheel literally sinks into the hole, where a larger wheel will roll over or thru. I got the Llama as a MBT, and didn't realize that design flaw until tested.

We have a language problem here. The wheel size on the Llama is not a 'design flaw', any more than its inability to carry an elephant on its rear rack. These are aspects of its design which let it meet its design goals. A Mtn bike built around 622 rims won't fit in a suitcase. Does that make it a 'flawed design'?

Yes, a 406 wheel is unable to roll over as large an obstacle as a 559 or 622 wheel. It doesn't mean that wheel size is flawed, it's just a consequence of physics.


John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[Peteholden]

"design flaw' - well, to my mind, if something is marketed as a 'mountain bike', then it at least ought to be able to handle fire roads. My first trip off-road on the Llama (and I had ridden trails and roads before with 559 wheels) had me ditching into a ditch ("you know how to fall") - because the wheel dropped instead of rolling over.  I would not take my Llama on a single track nor would I take it on a fire road, without the expectation of walking it more than riding it.

I don't think standard size bikes are marketed to fit in a suitcase (that would fit airline standards of "regular luggage").  If they were, I'd be extremely disappointed and consider it flawed.

.     _/\_

Peter Holden

H-415-626-9465
C-415-866-6191

-----Original Message-----
From: John Thurston <y...@thurstons.us>
To: yak <y...@bikefriday.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 15, 2018 9:52 am
Subject: Re: [yak] Bike Friday Allroad?

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To post to this group, send email to y...@bikefriday.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/group/yak/.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/BF60C5A4-DB40-4CF0-B103-79FA8910CEE6%40thurstons.us.

[Daniel Santamaria]

ive ridden many a fire road on my nwt with 1.75" tyres. 

i agree that it's not as good as larger wheels, but the llama is indeed a mtb version of a 20" wheeled folding bike. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/160fb0aa432-1724-eb859%40webjas-vad121.srv.aolmail.net.

[Larry Newman]

While I don’t advise it, I have ridden fire roads or double-track, large-chunk gravel, and cobble stones on my PRP with 451x1.1 tires. I don’t recommend it as ideal, but it was needed on some of my tours. My companions generally had 700Cx35+ tires and that was easier. However, I was generally up the hill first but rode slower on the cobbles while towing the trailer with the 10” tires. Every option involves trade-offs. Thus the 29er advocates over 26” on MTBs. Smaller diameter wheels are stronger but definitely slow on rougher surfaces.

I bought an old NWT for my in-town errands, mud, snow, and ice. The 1.5 tires at lower pressure definitely help on rough roads/streets.

-- 

Larry, Bozeman, MT

AF, PR, NWT, and TT (formerly)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/CAF2Mo4a5NpxTVX%2Beo%3DJigJ%2BvvtF66c_6H2x%3DM_r%2BVgd-xx7LYA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Geof Gee]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 1:17 PM, 'Peteholden' via Bike Friday Yak!
<y...@bikefriday.com> wrote:
> "design flaw' - well, to my mind, if something is marketed as a 'mountain
> bike', then it at least ought to be able to handle fire roads.
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Thurston <y...@thurstons.us>
> To: yak <y...@bikefriday.com>
>

> We have a language problem here.

Just to follow up on John's comment, I suspect that we even have a
language problem when it comes to describing the terrain even before
accounting for all of our tolerances as well as how aggressive one
rides.

If it matters, when my brother took me to a few places not far from
Rivendell Bicycles, he took me on "fire roads". I remember riding my
drop bar NWT sans fenders with him all around. We didn't come across
anything that I would describe as a single track but the 406 wheels
did fine on them.

Mind you, I recall reading that Jobst Brandt insisted you could ride
on all sorts of things vaguely described as roads on his road bike
with narrow tires. So our individual preferences and tolerances
matter a lot.

-G
Arlington, VA

--

"Sometimes I forget things. Who I am. Where I am. Unimportant
things. But I'm not insane. "

[Joseph Bernard]

I've ridden those "fire roads" on a 16-inch-wheel Dahon. Is it ideal? No. Is it kind of funny cuz it's such a dumb thing to do on that bike? Yes!

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To post to this group, send email to y...@bikefriday.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/group/yak/.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/CACEjqhRiXp8_E2JdZa3YtvGgmt4qTSHpHkMEuBCcZvABhxxj8Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Hugh L]

I, too, have ridden 406 wheels on unpaved fire roads, rail-trails, and single-track for distances up to 20 miles.  Never had any issues, but then I wasn't trying to ride technical routes nor bombing down a hill like I used to do on my former 26-inch bikes.  My most technical ride on a BF was 10 miles of wet cobblestone singletrack that was the remnants of an old railroad grade slowly being eroded in areas by the adjacent river; I think conditions would have caused me to ride as slow/careful as if I were on a 'full-size' MTB.  Its all fun!

Hugh

Eugene

--

Hugh Larkin
Eugene, OR
Cruzin' the Globe on 2 Small Wheels!

You have no such accurate remembrance of a country you have driven through, as you gain by riding a bicycle. --Ernest Hemingway, 'Battle for Paris', 1944

Go Green!  Please do not print this e-mail unless it is completely necessary.

[Mark Hillman]

It is good to let others know of the problems with small wheels in "rough stuff". I believe stability is further compromised for tall riders in this terrain. I learned this the hard way $$$$$.

Mark Hillman

[Jim Murchison]

Photographers have an old saying: the best camera is the one you have with you.  The parallel in the bike world means that the Bike Friday, although often sub-optimal, is often the bike you have with you and therefore “the best bike” no matter what model.

 

After reading all the discussion on NWT vs Llama for off-road use, the comments are all valid but it’s also worth mentioning that, if you are going to have a bike built, consider disc brakes.  That was probably the biggest benefit that I got when we switched from PR Pro’s to NWT’s and that change also included at Rohloff/Gates combo.  I never had much trouble getting the PR Pro with rim brakes rolling but it sure was hard to stop.  The disc brakes are fantastic.

[roamic]

Around 11 years ago, my wife and I rode from Vienna to Budapest with a group. Everyone else was on a rented bike. I was on my Air Glide with slick Primo tires.

after a few days in Budapest, we took the train to Prague and joined up with another group. When My wife and all the others went to get their bikes, they were all on mtn bikes with knobby tires. Did I misread something?

I remember some dirt, but here's a video of the group descending a steep cobblestone hill. Notice some of them, including my wife, are walking their bikes down.

I rode down on the Friday, slick tires and all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC7YXNkwH0s

[Larry Newman]

Last fall I rode from Vienna to Budapest, towing the trailer, on my Air Friday with 451, 1.1 Schwalbe tires. I had no issues. Some parts of the Danube bike path are packed pea gravel and many of the asphalt sections are cracked. Cobbles in some cities, but never an issue. I did notice that I had to work harder than my companion with 700c touring tires on the softer sand/gravel sections, but not unduly so. 

Larry Newman

lnewm...@gmail.com

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To post to this group, send email to y...@bikefriday.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/group/yak/.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/a386bff0-8a0f-456f-abd6-0e3475890ce2%40bikefriday.com.

[Wes Sims]

16 years ago my wife (NWT) and I (Sat-R-Day) rode with a tour from Salzburg to Vienna.  The Sat-R-Day was NOT at good choice for the cobblestones - wet ones downright dangerous.  The 1 3/8 tires were not the problem - the 16" wheels were.   Encountered lots of cobblestones and the suspension system did not keep the seat mount from breaking.  Had to use Zip ties while BF overnighted me a replacement.   Sat-R-Day (Model - 1) would not be my choice for a tour in Europe.

The NWT tires (1.95's as I recall) were not a problem on any roads we encountered.  The the rim brakes on the 20" NWT wheels proved a disaster  On a cold rainy day near the bottom of a long 18% downgrade out of Salzburg my wife overheated the rim and blew the front tire - at the edge of the rim (over the handlebars; cracked helmet, and cracked rib - luckily the full Gortex slid smoothly and saved lots of skin rash).  The tour furnished bikes had drum brakes.  I suspect technique was partly to blame as I had no problems with the rim brakes on the 16" wheels.  It does raise the need for caution with rim brakes if heavy touring loads, or pulling a trailer are involved and European hills are encountered.  Very steep grades are routinely encountered and the tour operators only used drum brake equipped bikes.  I was able to replace the destroyed tire with a BMX tire at a local bike shop.  I always carried a spare 16" tire and tubes as those are impossible to get.

Wes

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/B473E4FF-C0BF-4284-932B-961F79AC5EA8%40gmail.com.