400% 1x gearing on a Friday?

[John Thurston]

I'm on a quest for a 400% gear range for my Friday.

I know the Rohloff has 525%, the Alfine 11 offers 410%, and etc. I also
know the Sturmey FS30 hybrid makes +400% easy. I also know how to
install two (or more) chainrings and move the chain among them. What I
seek is specifically a single chainring and derailleur solution.

I currently have 365% using an 11-40t cassette, with a short-cage 105
derailleur hanging from a Wolf Tooth "RoadLink". This is pretty good,
but I'm greedy and want more.

My experiments indicate I can't go much larger than 40t and still have
the derailleur clear the ground. But if I could turn that 11t into a
10t, then I'd achieve my arbitrary goal. Which turns the question to one
of hub/cassette/derailleur compatibility.

It isn't possible to cram a 10t on a normal Shimano free hub, and the
Capreo is gone. Which means I'd have to build a new wheel around a new
hub a SRAM "XD" driver, find a suitable cassette, and a compatible
_short_ cage derailleur.

I'm looking for clues or results of other folks' experiments with 10t
cogs. They don't even need to have been successful experiments :)

--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[Wolfgang Ketterle]

Sunrace has a new 11-speed cassette  9 - 36 T
https://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/cssx0

[Richard Frasier]

Hi John -

We're using a 1x11 setup on our Tandem Traveler (406 wheels).  We're using a Shimano XT RD-M8000-GS 11 speed derailleur (long cage) with an 11-46.  It sits pretty low but works fine for the kind of riding we do - 90% tarmac roads.  We've never scraped it!

This is a crummy picture but maybe you can see where the derailleur comes to - it 's at the level of the white stripe on our Schwalbe Marathons.

We currently have a 46 in front.  This gives us 18,4 gear inches for a low and 77,1 for a high.  Definitely not a racing setup, but it works for our loaded touring needs.   My calculator says that's 419%.

The folks at Bike Friday helped us with this - our tandem originally had 3x8 shifting with the internal (infernal) hub.  

HTH

Rich Frasier

Limoux, France

[Paul Webb]

Hi John,  I have SRAM 1x11 on my MtB.  10-42 in the rear.  I don't have that bike nearby to measure how low the derailleur hangs.  I do find it a little fussy in adjustment - it doesn't take much of a hit to the derailleur hanger to upset shifting performance.  

Paul

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/add1128e-4edc-b52d-da02-fee52835d2d0%40thurstons.us.

[John Thurston]

On 5/31/2021 12:23 AM, Richard Frasier wrote:
> We're using
> a Shimano XT RD-M8000-GS 11 speed derailleur (long cage) with an 11-46. It
> sits pretty low but works fine for the kind of riding we do - 90% tarmac
> roads. We've never scraped it!

I the same derailleur my first attempt with my 11-40.. . or maybe it was
a medium cage, I don't recall exactly. But it sat much too low for my
taste. It wasn't going to scrape to road, but it was going to catch
rocks and sticks on dirt/gravel/trails.

I later tried some other model (I can't recall it right now), which was
a tiny bit farther from the road and shifted great. But the chain was
bathed in the wake thrown out from the rear wheel. After riding 10
miles, I could hear my brand new chain turning sand and dirt into
grinding paste.

Yep. An 11-46 would get what I want, but the 46 forces the derailleur
cage too close to the road for my taste.

[John Thurston]

On 5/30/2021 12:33 PM, Wolfgang Ketterle wrote:
> Sunrace has a new 11-speed cassette  9 - 36 T
> https://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/cssx0

I found it in the Sunrace catalog
https://www.sunrace.com/files/catalogues/SunRace%202021-2022%20Catalogue.pdf

There are five models listed:
11-speed 9-36 CSSX0-ENW
11-speed 9-32 CSSX0-ENU
10-speed 9-32 CSSS0-TNU
10-speed 9-28 CSSS0-TNS
9-speed 9-28 CSS90-9NS

The 11 and 10-speed are listed as having "alloy spider and spacers",
though it does not say of what metals the allow is made. "Alloy" is
often bicycle slang for "aluminum alloy", but as steel is an "iron
alloy", that spider could be made of steel and still be accurately
described.

These are for use on the "For NHG Freehub Body (HBSX1.R / X0.R)", which
is available on the Sunrace HBSX1 and HBSX0 hubs. The first has a 6-bolt
disc mount, the second does not. Each of those hubs appears to be
available in three models (-RE, -RT, -R9). And since those suffixes seem
to align with the suffixes on the cassettes, I suspect they indicate
suitable matches. Examples:
HBSX0-RE is an 11-speed non-disc hub which will accept the CSSX0-ENW
HBSX1-RT is a 10-speed disc hub which will accept the CSSS0-TNU

FWIW, there is a disclaimer on the catalog page stating:

"CSS cassettes and HBSX hubs are designated for small wheel bicycles
riding on paved road. These parts are not designated for MTB riding off
road."

There is no information regarding the width of the hubs. They are likely
135mm, but they could be 130mm. I doubt they are 142mm.

For an 11-speed combination, the combined weight is 680g. My current
setup is a Shimano Deore hub with an XT cassette, whose combined weight
is about 670g. That's essentially no difference.

As for being 'new', I see these items first appeared in the 2016-2017
catalog. I was unaware of them, so they are new to me even if they are
not new to the market.

[John Thurston]

On 5/31/2021 9:54 AM, John Thurston wrote:
> There is no information regarding the width of the hubs. They are likely
> 135mm, but they could be 130mm. I doubt they are 142mm.

HAH! I found it in the earliest (2016-2017) catalog.

There it is stated the 'spider' in the cassette is aluminum, and the
width of the hub is 135mm. It also says it is available only in 32-hole
drilling, and gives the dimensions necessary to calculate spoke lengths.

[Kai Mikkel Forlie]

[What I am about to share obviously runs contrary to the OP's intention to go with a 1X setup. But, just in case folks are open to alternatives....]

I offer the following purely as food for thought.

I can't speak to the feasiblity of the following solution in regards to a small wheel bike (for instance, I've never tried it on my 1 X 3X7 Air Glide) but it works exceptionally well on my 26" wheel expedition touring bike (a Fat City Wicked Lite frame w/drop handlebars, Shimano SL-BS77 9-spd bar-end shifters and 175mm crank arms). The result is a silky smooth 790% gear range (877% gear range if I install a 16T cog in place of the existing 17T cog). Curious? Keep reading.

If a 74-110 BCD crank happens to work on a given BF (assuming there's also allowance for a front derailleur) then one could potentially install said crank along with a Mountain Tamer adaptor.

The splined Mountain Tamer Quad Plus:

http://abundantadventures.com/mt_plus.html

...is basically impossible to find but the OEM still sells the splined Triple:

http://abundantadventures.com/mt_triple.html

...along with a selection of splined Suntour "A" cogs.

If the Triple is used with a 26T granny, it can be fitted as a fourth chainring (a "super granny"). Use of a 16T or 17T cog as a super granny allows ridiculous low-end and, along with a 46T big ring and 11-32 cassette, reasonable high-end gearing too (upwards of 108.7 gear inches).

In my case, with a 17T cog installed on the Quad Plus, I achieve a low-end of 13.8 gear inches and a high-end of 108.7 gear inches (w/a 16T cog installed as a super granny the low-end drops to 13.0"). On the one hand, I can practically climb a tree while, on the other, I can pedal at high speeds. I basically never run out of high-end given that I almost exclusively utilize 1.75 Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires. Though I will swap out for wider knobbies if planning long stretches on single track or poor quality dirt roads, I never go with anything narrower. Thus, a 'higher' high-end is pointless to me.

I utilize a Mountain Tamer Quad Plus (which is the splined version of the venerable Mountain Tamer Quad - I scrounged for many years on eBay before I found one) fitted with 17T and 24T Suntour "A" cogs. [Note - I would think that a Triple along with a standard 74 BCD 26T chain ring would accomplish roughly the same result.] That sub-assembly is installed on Shimano FC-M730 cranks which are also fitted with Raceface 34T and 46T rings (resulting in a quad chainring). That assembly is then used in conjunction with a SRAM PG-990 11-32 cassette (11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32) and a PG-991 9-speed chain, all of which is shifted by a long cage Shimano RD-M751-SGS rear derailleur and a Shimano FD-M900 front derailleur (via the aforementioned bar-end shifters). Rounding out the drivetrain is an Avid Rollamajig, a Middleburn alloy breakaway rear derailleur bolt and an N-Gear JumpStop (the latter of which did require some minor modification to allow for the super granny).

In my case, the above setup (excepting the N-Gear JumpStop) required zero modification. That said, I did strategically machine away a little bit from the rear SKS P-65 fender (thinking I would need some additional clearance when the chain is on the super granny and on the biggest cog in the rear) but realized after the fact that this was uneccesary as there is plenty of clearance without this modification.

In closing, I have no idea if this setup (or one like it) would work on a given BF (or any other frame for that matter). However, if a huge range is desired - particularly one not reliant on a high-priced and not-widely-available-everywhere-in-the-world wide-range cassette (use of which is accompanied by a frighteningly low-hanging rear derailleur cage), it might be worth a try to see if one could make it work. For the kind of riding I do (everything from open-ended, heavy-loaded, expedition-style touring to fast training rides/day tours/commutes to hauling all manner of loads with a selection of trailers) I get the best of all worlds with this setup. The arrangement is bomb-proof and, once dialed-in (which, for me, was super easy), almost never requires adjustment. It's basically set and forget.

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/398ff420-53dd-fa64-d391-d5723ab9d334%40thurstons.us.

[Paul Webb]

The Mountain Tamer Quad is a really interesting piece of kit to know about - it reminds me of the Da Vinci independent coasting tandem that used a stub axle with four cogs of a cassette in the drive train.  Your experience that it worked without major chainline issues is good to know.

Small wheeled bikes have less difficulty achieving low, low gears - for example your 17 super-granny ring on 26" wheels will achieve the same gear sizes as a regular 22T MTB chainring on 20" wheels.

Paul 

[John S. Allen]

Question is, how slow can you go and still keep your balance? I have a
28T inner chainring, 33T largest sprocket (yes, really, Tom Ritchey made
them) and Sachs 3 x 7 hub on my NWT, and the low gear is below 12 gear
inches. (1 meter development). I have used this gear on a steep mountain
ascent, speed about 3 mph but if I were going only slightly slower, I'd
have trouble staying balanced. I think that this is more of a ocncern with
smaller wheels. But then there is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgIL6eHHgZU

> --
> another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/dcc6a8c9-f215-437e-8591-39c3b14c4cbbn%40bikefriday.com.
>

[Wolfgang Ketterle]

I have enjoyed on my Pocket Rocket a 30 T chainring and a 32 T sprocket
(on a modified Capreo cassette), with a development of 1.48 m.  The bike
is still very stable on climbs around 15-17 %.
On the high side, I can go 50 T and 9 T, with a development of 8.8 m 
--- so my overall range is almost 600 %.  I would not settle for 400 %.

[Michael Jacoubowsky]

But to use the SunRace 9t 11-speed cassette, you also must use their special hub- SunRace | HBSX0.

What gets strange is that you have to use an entirely different hub with their 11 speed cassettes that start with a 10t small cog vs the 11t. Two choices for cassette size, 9-32 and 9-36. 

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/16ae79ce-8d43-c4cd-73cf-1f4d2d4cc110%40mit.edu.

--

LargePrefPlaceholder-XKUz1MEJBwkOM

[robert clark]

That's nice.. 

I have a Rohloff Llama . they're  526%  

A short cage chain tensioner , Up well clear of the dirt. 

 Is there because the fold hinge is  behind the BB...

16: 53 (10 reduction gears , 3 overdrive.  #11 is 1:1.

[robert clark]

Had an original,  Screw on cog 16t mountain tamer quad  ..16,26,36,46,  

(+ cassette on wheel) gives you a silly low only really suitable for trikes.

So Low, you could write on the street with chalk,  as you climbed the hill ..