Anyone done a long (several thousand mile) trip on a NWT?

[Rick Mason]

I have a NWT which I bought used last year. I used it to do the Pacific coast last summer (~2000 miles) as the trip required a fair amount of quick packing / unpacking and the Friday helped for that. I have the suitcase trailer but chose to use from / rear racks an panniers due to the narrow roads.

So, this summer, I am heading out on a longer 4000 - 5000 mile trip. Normally I would use my REI Randonee for a 3 month trip, but I have some concern that with COVID, I might have to do a quick return home, and the Friday does help there.

But, the Friday is a compromise on stability at low speed. I can live with that if needed, but I do wonder if I am pushing the little bike a bit for such a long journey.  I do know that Green Gear sells them as being capable of doing a round the world tour, but I have yet to talk to anyone who had ridden one even as far as I did last summer.

So, if you have, please respond. And did you use the trailer or racks/panniers.

Thanks,

Rick

[Daniel Santamaria]

i have not ridden my NWT that far in a single tour - only 2,000km in a single one. But I have ridden it as a commuter, and on many 1000-2000km tours, totalling probably around 100,000km over the last 10 years. 

I prefer it over my Surly Long Haul Trucker for all types of riding, except if there is a lot of offroad riding. It will handle your trip just fine in my opinion. 

cheers

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[Ken Preston]

My brother and I did LEJOG in 2017. We followed Sustrans routes which made it just over 2000 km. Bikes handled well but did replace break pads along the way. My brother had a NWT. Mine is a Crusoe. 

In 2011 my wife and I did the Danube from the headwaters to Budapest. We both had our Crusoes. I did have a rear wheel problem. But replacing bearings got us through the whole trip. It was a little over 1600 km. 

Good 20” tires are sometimes not a easy to get as I would like. So start out with new tires. 

Ken

On Jun 9, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Rick Mason <rick.a...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Glen Nison]

And the small wheels are a lot stronger than larger ones!

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[gniso...@juno.com]

I haven't toured on such a long trip but I find that having the weight of panniers so low on the front and rear racks increases the stability quite a bit especially at high speeds. And of course Bike Friday's customer service even while on the road is unsurpassed (not sure how staffing at BF is with the pandemic). Good luck whatever you decide.
Glen

[Larry Newman]

I’ve had the same Pocket Rocket since 1994. I have used it for a 2008 Cross USA tour, and multiple 2-4 week tours in Europe: Spain (3), Scandinavia-Blatic States, Blakans, Italy, France, and numerous X-State rides. I used the trailer for all but 3 tours. I think my Pocket Rocket (converted to a triple crank) is about 2 mph slower than my LeMond Chambray for local group rides, but equal to most touring bikes for tours. My friends on standard bikes always had many more issues with air, train, bus, and ferry options. I would not consider changing to a standard bike.

Larry Newman, MT

AF, PR, PS, NWT, and TT

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/02D4B89A-E7BB-4A06-9BB0-F9F9C2D38471%40gmail.com.

[Rick Mason]

Thanks for the quick responses.

It sounds like I shouldn't be concerned about the bike holding up.

As for stability, yes, the front panniers do help at high speed, but at low speed (< 5 MPH) I found myself wrestling the bike more (more weight to wrestle).

All of my touring experience has been with panniers (front and rear), but my sense is that with Bike Friday tourists, the trailer option is more popular. So, for those of you that have done long trips with the trailer, did you have issues with the tires lasting? I don't want to find myself hunting for 12 inch tires while on the road. And, were you able to fit the bike and trailer parts in the trailer and not go over the 50 pound limit, or did you have to put something into your gear bag?

As for crazy guy - I did look, but didn't find much, but I didn't go back more than a year or two.

Rick - www.cactusrider.com

[robert clark]

Have you read journals postedon CGOAB  https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/  

they sort by type of bike and lots  of writers are on Bike Fridays..

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/categories/?o=1mr&category_id=315&doctype=journal

36 pages,  of posts , so far..

[Geof Gee]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:51 AM Rick Mason <rick.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like I shouldn't be concerned about the bike holding up.

As for stability, yes, the front panniers do help at high speed, but at low speed (< 5 MPH) I found myself wrestling the bike more (more weight to wrestle).

My casual observation ... a regular bike has a top tube which gives folks something to lean against (with thighs) at slow speed or a standstill.  Perhaps a longer saddle might help ... although I would never change my saddle for what I perceive as a minor issue.  

I've never used the Bike Friday trailer.  Can't help you on the durability of 12" tires.  

 

-G

--

"Sometimes I forget things.  Who I am.  Where I am.  Unimportant things. But I'm not insane. "

[Ken Preston]

Hi Rick

I’ve used both panniers and trailers with my BF Crusoe.  Given the route and surface each have their pros and cons.  

In regards to tire concerns, I have not found that an issue. Since they are a relatively low pressure and the weight of the trailer and its contents is quite low flats are rare, for me anyways.  Although I do carry a spare tube i do not carry a spare tire.

I’ve used my case/trailer for several trips and found it to be great for packing.  You do not have to be quite as precise and there is lots of room for extra food and drinks if you need to pick them up as you go.  I’ve (we) have always had a bit of water come into them in a heavy rain so we have a large sea bag inside which solves that problem completely.  The trailer set up is great if you have a flat on the bike.  No unpacking required, just unclip.  

My wife and I both used BF trailers on our tour of the Netherlands.  There of course there are dedicated bike trails everywhere and they are in excellent shape so using trailers was a breeze.  Although even there you have to be continually aware of the trailer since it is much wider that the bike itself.

I did a trip from Quebec City to St. John’s Newfoundland with the Crusoe and trailer.  The trailer handled well but some sections of highway in New Brunswick has a rumble strip which was in a poor location given the narrow width of the shoulder.  Because of that and traffic I was forced to ride where I always had one wheel right on the rumble strip.  That only lasted for a day of riding but it drove me crazy!  Noisy, extra drag and vibration made for a long day.

Two years ago our cycle group did a trip on the KATY trail, both ways.  I used my Crusoe and trailer.  Everyone else used panniers and one other had a BF NWT.  Although the trail was in good shape I was quite a bit slower than the rest of the group.  I put it down to the fact that I had the trailer and the extra friction of the tires on the trail.  I’f I had been by myself I would not have been a problem but with a group I felt I was slowing them down a bit.

So now I travel with panniers or the trailer based on the road/trail surface on the route.  As well who am I travelling with?  Faster or slower people.

Hope that helps, Ken

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[Hugh L]

My trailer tires are 25 years old and still going strong. Only 1 flat on 4 tires/2 trailers in all those years. 

I would carry an extra bike tire as the rear will wear faster than the front due to the drive nature of the wheel plus the extra weight leveraged at the rear axle from the trailer. I would also suggest distributing the weight in the case such that the heaviest items are on and/or behind the trailer axle to replicate suggested auro trailer loading of 60/40 weight fore and aft of said trailer axle. IMO, it does affect the handling of the bike; and it makes it easier to maneuver the bike and trailer in tight spots when having to lift the rear wheel.

Front panniers to carry daily items and food, and trailer for all else is my preference.

Hugh

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Hugh Larkin
Eugene, OR
Cruzin' the Globe on 2 Small Wheels!

You have no such accurate remembrance of a country you have driven through, as you gain by riding a bicycle. --Ernest Hemingway, 'Battle for Paris', 1944

Go Green!  Please do not print this e-mail unless it is completely necessary.

[Larry Newman]

I have used both panniers and the trailer and prefer the trailer. The choice depends somewhat on your route. If a circular route, riding back to your start point, then panniers save about 9#. I figure 4# for rack and pass, 13# for the empty trailer. Might help if on a hilly route. However, easier too ind things in the trailer, and more room. While more room, easier to add weight, but, the weight is not on the bike.

I have had some tire issues:

Having purchased the trailer undercarriage in 1994, it was not as well built. On a 3 week tour in Spain, the undercarriage sagged, with caused the tires to mis-align and scuff. I managed to finish using shoe goo, duct tape, and wearing the back pack to reduce trailer weight. FB replaced the undercarriage at no cost (Their usual great service), and I have not had any other problems.

I once rolled over a patch of goat heads growing in cracks between the road and added shoulder. Took several days  of patching and inspecting to eliminate the thorns embedded in the tire. I normally carry a spare trailer tube but not a spare tire. The tires never show wear when aligned. 

I once lost the pin holding the wheel, but a young kid in Belgium got one for us at his farm house. The new design with the pin inside the wheel is better than the old design with the pin outside the wheel. In general, the current design is excellent.

Finally, smaller wheels on the bike and trailer are a negative on rough roads and gravel/soft surfaces. You sink further into the same size hole or crack—more resistance.

I have been “saved” many times by having the trailer option. 

• Staying in Gerona with a next-day flight out of Barcelona. Went to the train station, but the regional rail was closed due to flooding on that line. The TGV was open, but not bikes allowed. I packed the bike in 20 minutes and took the TGV.
• My touring companions often wast a day with conventional bikes. They have to find a place to store their bike cases/boxes, then return to the starting point. Airlines often balk on accepting bikes at check-in for the return flight, so they take a day to go to the airport and get a signed not from an official that says they will accept the bikes. 
• Point-to-point routes really extend breadth of travel.

—

Regards,

Larry

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[Rick Mason]

Thanks Robert,

Yes, I had done a search on Crazy Guy. Not exactly as you did, so I followed your links. While I didn't look at every "Folding bicycles" journal, I did look at those over about 40 days (my ride last summer was 42 days of actual riding, and about 2100 miles) as I wanted to find tours more like my plans this summer. So far, I haven't found any, which is why I asked here.

Thankfully, I did ge a couple affirmative responses.

[John Allen]

At 10:45 AM 6/10/2020, Hugh L wrote:

My casual observation ... a regular bike has a top tube which gives folks something to lean against (with thighs) at slow speed or a standstill.  Perhaps a longer saddle might help ... although I would never change my saddle for what I perceive as a minor issue.

Indeed, I miss the ability to clamp the top tube between my thighs to hold the bicycle upright with my Bikes Friday and Raleigh Twentys. If II take both hands off the bars, the bike can capsize. The tendency is worse with a load on the a rear rack.

I don't generally advise siting on the saddle though when stopped. Some bicycles have a bottom bracket low enough to allow of efficient leg extension while sitting on the saddle and placing the toes of one foot on the ground. That is still a bit awkward, though, it works better if your feet are bigger, and I can't  say whether it works with a bike Friday because I haven't tried it. Here is the more usual approach: https://cyclingsavvy.org/2020/05/starting-and-stopping/

Also, air pressure in trailer tires should be proportional to the load. If a trailer weighs 30 pounds in all, including the load, and (for example) the tires would be inflated to 50 PSI when carrying, say 150 pounds of bicycle and rider, then they should be 1/5 that for the trailer -- only 10 PSI. This reduces bounce, which can even capsize a trailer. I have had this happen with my BF cargo trailer, which is at a disadvantage because the axle is a bit shorter, and the trailer only carries a load when I return. I must take care with bumps when the trailer is empty.

John S. Allen

Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

CyclingSavvy Instructor
League Cycling Instructor #77-C
Safety Coordinator, Charles River Wheelers

jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
http://bikexprt.com
http://john-s-allen.com/blog
http://streetsmarts.bostonbiker.org

Virus-free. www.avast.com

[Rick Mason]

Indeed, the lack of a top tube does pose a problem at rest, though I found a way to put a knee against the steering riser, and my butt against the seat. So at stop I am OK. I don't touch the top tube while in motion on any of my bikes, so I'm not sure that contributes. My seat is a brooks B17. Fairly long as seat go, and as you say "I ain't guuna change that" :-)

Walter (Green Gear) says more weight in front (60/40) as an ACA article says that (yes I remembered reading that one and was surprised as everyone else said the opposite (and I have no idea HOW you can find a way to put 60% in front given the tent that has to be outside of the panniers...) But I digress. Yes, weight on front helps at high speed, but I think it's worse at slow.

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 7:21:15 AM UTC-7, Geof Gee wrote:

[Rick Mason]

"My trailer tires are 25 years old and still going strong"  --- Very helpful!

"I would carry an extra bike tire" -- Yup, a folding spare; just in case.

"rear will wear faster than the front" -- Yes again. Even on my Randonee I rotate on a long trip. Easy to do on a rest day

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 7:45:30 AM UTC-7, Hugh L wrote:

My trailer tires are 25 years old and still going strong. Only 1 flat on 4 tires/2 trailers in all those years. 

I would carry an extra bike tire as the rear will wear faster than the front due to the drive nature of the wheel plus the extra weight leveraged at the rear axle from the trailer. I would also suggest distributing the weight in the case such that the heaviest items are on and/or behind the trailer axle to replicate suggested auro trailer loading of 60/40 weight fore and aft of said trailer axle. IMO, it does affect the handling of the bike; and it makes it easier to maneuver the bike and trailer in tight spots when having to lift the rear wheel.

Front panniers to carry daily items and food, and trailer for all else is my preference.

Hugh

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 7:21 AM Geof Gee <geo...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:51 AM Rick Mason <rick....@gmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like I shouldn't be concerned about the bike holding up.

As for stability, yes, the front panniers do help at high speed, but at low speed (< 5 MPH) I found myself wrestling the bike more (more weight to wrestle).

My casual observation ... a regular bike has a top tube which gives folks something to lean against (with thighs) at slow speed or a standstill.  Perhaps a longer saddle might help ... although I would never change my saddle for what I perceive as a minor issue.  

I've never used the Bike Friday trailer.  Can't help you on the durability of 12" tires.  

 

-G

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"Sometimes I forget things.  Who I am.  Where I am.  Unimportant things. But I'm not insane. "

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[roamic]

I prefer the trailer to panniers, but I find the BF suitcase/trailer to be less aerodynamic and so it has a lot of wind drag to me.

This was a test ride around Lake Champlain: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=5668&v=41

This was St Louis to the Iowa along the Katy trail and then across Iowa on RAGBRAI.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=1149&v=EH

This was Portland, OR to Helena, MT along the Lewis and Clark trail.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=1284&v=CY

This was a trip from Spokane to Idaho

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=1813&v=43

I've also done quite a few trips without the trailer, where the gear was transported for us.

Hoping to do the Underground Railroad Route this fall from Mobile to somewhere in KY on the friday tandem pulling the trailer.

[Brian Ogilvie]

I found that mounting my U-lock on the seat mast provides a good way to stabilize the bike when stopped.

Photo: https://brianogilvie.smugmug.com/Bikes-and-rides/Brians-New-World-Tourist/i-rSdkpvn/A

Brian

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:37 PM Rick Mason <rick.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

Indeed, the lack of a top tube does pose a problem at rest, though I found a way to put a knee against the steering riser, and my butt against the seat.

--

Brian W. Ogilvie <bwog...@gmail.com>
Hadley, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pobox.com/~ogilvie

[robert clark]

Was Going to say Heinz Stuke, but he was using a Pocket Llama  
   

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 5:16:36 PM UTC-7, Rick Mason wrote:

[Rick Mason]

Thanks Robert. I should have thought of this one...

And using racks and panniers... mostly

[Rick Mason]

Roamic -- Since you seem to be one of the few who has done a lot ot touring with both:

You say the trailer has more wind drag. That seems counter intuitive. Panniers don't present a very sleek profile, but it would seem the suitcase does. So how much drag do you feel it gives; how much does it slow you down; are you sure it's not added weight or extra wheel friction?

You say you refer the trailer.  What are the reason?  Does length of trip matter? What factors would influence your decision to pick one over the other?

[Barbara Chapnick]

I have a friend who has travelled the world with his NWT.  his name is Ted and here is his email "Ted Stagnone" <tst...@hotmail.com>

[hpvluve...@aol.com]

Check out Crazyguyonabike and I am sure you will find lots of stories. Fran

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[Rick Mason]

Thanks for this info. This original post was for a trip I took last summer.

Ultimately I decided use my traditional touring bike, but I did find that part of the instability I felt the summer before wasn't the Bike Friday, but a new Medicine I had to start taking. Thus my big wheel bike while more stable than the Friday, wasn't as much more stable as I had remembered.

[Rick Mason]

Thanks Fran. I had the same Idea. I did find a bit that way, but not as much as I hoped. Perhaps a new search before my next trip will reveal more

[Hugh L]

In 2006, we spent 4 months and 2,000 miles in Europe with our AGs pulling the trailers.  Worked great as we packed the bikes for train travel between regions.  Almost every tour we have done, single or tandem, had us towing the trailer.

In the mid 2000s, there was a family of 4 that rode east to west on 4 BFs following the Trans-Am, and they pulled trailers.  Others have done both the Northern and Southern routes.  And if memory serves me correctly, some BFs have done RAAM, which parallels the Southern route.

Hope this also helps,

Hugh

Eugene, OR

[Ken Preston]

Hi Barbara

We’ve owned Bike Friday Crusoes since 2008 and have done several long trips with them  The only trouble on the road that we’ve had were really because of me being too cheap and wanting to get the last mile out of each part.  Those issues were tires.  20” tires (406) although common are still much harder to find than 700c or 26” tires.  Often ones that are available are for BMX and are too wide for a road bike like the Bike Fridays.  The other issue was a rear wheel that started to act up on our Danube trip.  I could not find a 20” replacement that would allow for a cassette so I just repacked the wheel and it lasted very well for the rest of the trip.

I’ve/we have done 6 trips in the over 1000 to 2000 km range on our Bike Fridays (Crusoe).  They have been a mix of panniers, Bike Friday trailers and BOB trailer.  

The Netherlands trip with its exceptional bike infrastructure was good for using the Bike Friday suite case trailers.  I also used that trailer on a trip from Quebec City to St. John’s NFLD.  That was not so good.  Several of the roads had rumble strips on narrower shoulders and it was impossible to avoid the rumble strip with both wheels of the trailer.  I would only use that trailer if I knew the road conditions beforehand.

I’ve done LEJOG and JOGLE as well as the Danube from the headwaters to Budapest.  On all of those we used bike routes and trails where possible to avoid busy roads.  All of those trips were done with panniers.  I think that was the right choice since those trips required some train and air travel to get to or from the start and finish.  

I’ve used the BOB trailer on two long trips with Bike Fridays and it works well when you need to carry more equipment as when you are camping.  Also the rumble strip issue is solved with that trailer since it only has the one wheel.

I find that trailers do slow me down a bit more than panniers do.  More surface resistance I guess.  Not that that is always bad.  The other issue is that it is so easy to carry more stuff with a trailer.  As long as you have bunji cords there is always room for more.

So, if your bike is in good order and has NEW tires reliability should not be a problem at all.  As far as carrying stuff, panniers are still my prefered method.  Especially if I do not have first hand knowledge of the road quality and if other forms of transportation might be required.

Have a Great Trip, Ken

[Harvey Botzman]

I've done a number of 1000+ mile trips on a NWT.  I do not use the hard case.  I only use the soft bag and panniers. 

I frequently use public transportation, particularly trains, which in the USA & most other nations allow a folding bicycle to be brought into the passenger coach.  I always bag my BF NWT because I rarely clean it and do not want get bike gunk on other passenger's clothing or luggage. 

When flying I pack the NWT in a cardboard box with some additional cardboard inserted on the sides.  The box must meet airlines size & weight specifications which sometimes vary between airlines.  If you're using an international airline, then buy a soft sided "pullman suitcase" the size of the hard case and pack your BF into that suitcase as international airlines usually do not accept cardboard boxed luggage. 

Purchase MKS snap off pedals from Bike Friday.  These pedals are wonderful when traveling and using the bag.  No more pedals bunking into my shins, calfs, & ankles!

Check the bike in a box and carry your panniers on to the plane and you won't have to pay (or pay only the regular checked baggage fee) for the checked bike as almost all airlines (even the ultra cheap ones) allow one piece of luggage (the bike in a box) to travel free!  Your REI Randonee would cost at the minimum US$85.00-125.00 to transport on an airline. 

All Amtrak trains do have bike racks now.  However, on State financed routes many of the trains have only one (1) bike rack in each passenger coach.  This is slowly changing and when new passenger coaches are manufactured (don't expect this to happen soon), placed into service on these state financed routes they should have more bike racks.  Amtrak's long distance trains have a baggage car with at least 6 bike racks.  A bike rack allows a full sized bike to be carried on a train without having to box the bike.  Of course, BF's all can be carried on to an Amtrak passenger coach and placed in the floor area for luggage.  Don't place your BF (except perhaps a Tikit) in the overhead luggage areas.

Yes, I am a member of the Amtrak/Adventure Cycling Association Bicycle Task Force.  & you didn't think this advocacy group did not exist!  

[robert clark]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_St%C3%BCcke  

In 'Home is Elsewhere'  I spotted a couple pictures of the Bike Friday in camping pictures . 

But since Brompton got the book published,  those pictures  are kind of small ..   [3x4 & 4 x5,5 cm.]