Pocket Rocket for touring

[Jacob Hirschmann]

Dear BF Community

 

I have been communicating with Walter at BF and he has been most helpful.

 

However, I would appreciate input from anyone who has “toured” using a Pocket Rocket

I am looking to buy a new BF and my quandary is whether to go for a Pocket Rocket or a NWT.

I understand the NWT is a sturdier bike with wider tyre option and is designed for touring.

I would be a “credit card” traveller specifically on the EuroVelo routes and would only require to carry approx. 10 kg on a rear rack for daily use with suitcase etc being moved daily by a tour operator. My initial thinking is to have as light a weight bike as possible with the widest possible tyre on that bike.  I believe a 1 and three eighth inch tyre is the maximum that can be fitted to the PR. Can you fit a 1 and 3/8th tyre to the PocketRocket and in this regard will that size tyre fit on all the pocket rocket models other than the super pro red eTap which is way above my budget?  I would be particularly interested in the lower weight in this case the Ultegra.

 

Can one design the Pocket Rocket to for example to exclude electronic shifting, have a flat handle bar (what is the maximum length of the handlebar that will fit into the suitcase – don’t mind fully removing the handlebar from the stem for suitcase travel) as I am accustomed to riding a mountain bike with wide handle bars?

 

Can you build a dynamo into the front hub and can anyone recommend a good option with one or preferably 2 USB ports?

 

 I suffer from low back and neck problems and would want some basic suspension (over and above tyre pressure and width). Please comment on  any experience on using the suspension stem and suspension seat post offered by Cirrus Cycles https://cirruscycles.com/  (or equivalent) and if so can you give any guidance on their efficacy.

 

Please can you advise if the frame geometry on the Pocket Rockets  can be built to similar geometry to the New World Tourist. Does one need to ask BF to build in any specific attachment points for a rear rack or is it standard? A rear rack recommendation would be appreciated. Is there a Rear rack that can fold out to expand the area where one puts one’s “carry on stuff’?

With the Pocket Rocket on all the first four models when "semi" folded (not in the suitcase)  but for commuting how exposed is the rear derraileur to damage?

 

From the above you will see that I am trying to establish which would be the best bike for me, if I could get the lower weighted bike and if it is fitted with a rear pannier to take at least 18 to 20 pounds in weight I believe that would be sufficient for my needs.

Would love to hear from anyone who has “toured’ on the PR and get some input on the advantages and disadvantages of used the PR for touring compared to the NWT.

Many thanks

 

jacob

[Rick Mason]

Hi Jacob,

The short answer is that you should be fine.

I haven't toured with a Pocket Rocket, but I did do the Pacific Coast in 2019 with an NWT carrying about 50 pounds (20 KG).

As far as I know, there are no significant design differences between the two, just how heavy of the gauge of steel (Walter can correct me if I am wrong) The bottom bracket may be a tad higher, and I suspect the tire clearance a bit less, that I think that's about it. I did gather from a conversation with Walter, that the steering geometry is the same across the board (only one fork is used for all).

The 10 KG load wont be as important as how much you weigh. I'm about 160 pounds, so with a 26 pound ish NWT, my total weight is about 110 KG. The NWT had no issues. And I covered some pretty bad roads. I was on 40-406 tires (1.5")

So weight should be no issue.  For another example, I crossed the US last summer on my traditional touring bike wearing 700 x 32 tires (1 1/4) - skinnier than you are talking, and I had no tire issues, even on the stretches of gravel and trail I did.

As to your other questions:

Can one design the Pocket Rocket to for example to exclude electronic shifting, have a flat handle bar (what is the maximum length of the handlebar that will fit into the suitcase – don’t mind fully removing the handlebar from the stem for suitcase travel) as I am accustomed to riding a mountain bike with wide handle bars?

Yes.  You can pretty much do it how ever you want.  The only thing to keep in mind is that if you are thinking 10 speed and Shimano, road and mountain are not compatible. Shifters and dérailleurs must be the same. But I prefer my Friday's 8 speed to my touring bike's 10 speed anyway. It's less finicky.

Your handlebar width will be limited by what works for your shoulder width. I really doubt you will need (or be able to find?) a bar that won't fit in the suitcase.

Can you build a dynamo into the front hub

Yes, but if your touring with a tour operator, the likelihood of not having power every night is slim to none. I'd advise just carrying a power pack of say 3000 W hrs.  Even people like the "Bicycle Touring Pro" (YouTube) do that. And he has multiple cameras, and a drone.

I Can't help on suspension seat post.

can you advise if the frame geometry on the Pocket Rockets can be built to similar geometry to the New World Tourist.

Unless I am mistaken, they already are.

With the Pocket Rocket on all the first four models when "semi" folded (not in the suitcase)  but for commuting how exposed is the rear derraileur to damage?

It's partially protected if the front wheel is left on (You can watch some YouTube videos to see that), but do keep in mind that while the Friday can be used for multi-modal commuting, it's not great for it. The handlebars are left loose, and the "package" isn't near as small as bikes that are designed for that purpose (Brompton, Dahon...).

Hope that helps.

[Walter Lapchynski]

Rick, you asked me to correct you if you're wrong so that's what I'm doing.

Assuming they've got disc brakes, the NWT and PR are not different at all except that they accommodate different size wheels. Same tubing throughout and same bottom bracket height.

Tire clearance is less on the PR, but that's more to do with the fact that the 451 wheels offer less options.

Even with rim brakes, the only difference is a little thicker tubing on the NWT since the cantilever studs require brazing and so we need to beef things up a bit to handle the heat.

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Walter Lapchynski
Sales Consultant | Information Services Assistant
Green Gear Cycling dba Bike Friday
office +1 541-687-0487 | cell +1 541-995-0541

[Rick Mason]

Walter,

Thanks for the correction. Watching this group I know there has been a lot of confusion on the subtle differences between models.

Jacob,

Walter's correction on the tubing not being heavier is important to you since your goal is weight savings. Based on his comments, save for going with light weight 451 wheels, it doesn't sound like there is an advantage to the pocket rocket, and while 406 wheels might be a bit heavier, tires are much easier to find. Schwalbe makes Marathons in the size you are looking at (1 3/8   /  35mm), and having ridden them across the US 3 times, and down the coast 1 1/2, I heartily recommend them.

[Stephen Blum]

I use a Pocket Rocket for touring, and it works fine. Both for credit card touring and non-self contained (no cooking gear) camping. I originally bought it for road riding, and only later began using it for touring. The only changes I made to it was to add a rear rack and use wider tires.

I also use it in "commute mode". As Rick said, it's not designed specifically for commuting. I've never had a problem with it. It's a little awkward at times, but you get used to it. Never had a problem with the rear derailleur, although I do try to be careful with it.

Cheers,

Steve

[Andrew P. Black]

On 13 Apr 2021, at 10:46 , Jacob Hirschmann <ja...@jhins.co.za> wrote:

Andrew, hi

Please help me understand this reply from Walter. 
Is the wheel circumference different between PR and NWT?

Yes.  PR takes 451 wheels; NWT takes 406 wheels.  These numbers are the "bead set diameter” (BSD) in mm.  The bead seat is where the bead of the tire seats onto the rim.  So the 451 wheels are 45mm larger in diameter at the rim, or 22.5mm larger in radius.  Hence, the brake track is about 22.5mm lower on the NWT.

Because of this, the NWT can take taller and wider tires, but can’t use “road” style brakes, like Ultegra.  If you put a 50mm tyre on a NWT, and a 28mm, tyre on a PR, then the actual wheel diameter rolling along the road is going to be the same.   If you put 32mm tyres on a PR, and 38mm tyres on a NWT, then the NWT would have more clearance under the fork crown and at the brake bridge — this is what Walter means, I think.

If I were you, and were concerned about vibration and comfort,  I would specify 406 wheels.  Not only would they allow me a wider tires, which run a lower pressure and provide a more comfortable ride, but 406 wheels allow for a much wider selection of tires.  Moreover, 406 tires are much easier to find outside of specialized bike shops.  (Here in the USA, recumbent bike shops are often good source for 451 tyres.)  406 is the BMX size, and they can be found in chain stores and ironmongers around the world.   Not the highest quality, but enough to get you back on the road.   

Note that both 406 and 451 wheels are called “20-inch”, since they are both around 20 inches in diameter when shod with the appropriate tyres.  Yes, it’s very confusing.

[When I specified my bike — about 16 years ago — I was more concerned with speed, and wanted skinny wheels and tires, in the then-widespread but incorrect belief that they would be faster.  I can’t get more than a 32mm tyre on my Air Friday, whereas the bike I made in February is designed around 42–52mm tyres.  I’m older now :-( ]

If you choose 406 wheels, then you have to choose appropriate brakes.  So called “V-brakes” (linear pull cantilevers) are the default choice.  They work fine, and are compatible with flat-bar levers, but the pads are skinny and wear quickly.   Disc brakes are another option, but they are hard to pack without damage,  are heavy, and require a much beefier fork, which is even heavier.  As I mentioned once before,  I don’t know if BF will build a NWT with conventional cantilever brakes, and I don’t know if flat-bar levers will work with conventional cantilevers.  These would be questions for Walter.  If they are possible, they would be my choice.  But then, I’m a retro-grouch :-)

Andrew

If the NWT has a larger wheel circumference than the NWT then my mind is made up. 
Very confusing. 
Thanks. 

Jacob

[Dave Feldman]

Also, if one is touring in areas without many bike shops, 406mm is the easiest tire size to buy in hardware and variety stores--it's the BMX and other juvenile bikecstandard.

David Feldman 

Vancouver WA

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David Feldman

Feldman's Bicycle Repair

Vancouver, WA

503-998-7249

[Bob Boufford]

Kent at BF recommended Kool Stop Salmon for my eNWT when the default pads were not holding well going down steep hills where I live. Even just putting the pads on the rear wheel does a very good job of stopping.

Sent from my iPad

[John Thurston]

On 4/14/2021 10:03 AM, Andrew P. Black wrote:
> I don’t know if BF will build a NWT with conventional cantilever brakes, and I don’t know if flat-bar levers will work with conventional cantilevers. These would be questions for Walter. If they are possible, they would be my choice. But then, I’m a retro-grouch:-)

Hey, I'm a retrogrouch too, but I'd never spec cantilevers on a Friday.

When I had my Llama built (last century), linear-pull ("V") brakes were
the new thing. They were recommended by Bike Friday, and I accepted
their recommendation. But, being a grouch, I paid to have housing stops
added to the frame in case I didn't like the linear-pull brakes.

It was obvious when I got the bike that packing and folding would be
harder with cantilevers. They stick out farther, and the straddle/yoke
arrangement gets in the way of everything. Further, with the brake
bosses on the chainstay, I'd not be able to pedal the bike if I ever
installed cantilevers and used the housing stop I paid for. I could
cut/file that housing stop off the frame, but I'm leaving it as a
reminder to my future-self of my pig-headed stupidity.

I like cantilevers. I *prefer* cantilevers on my "big wheel" bikes. But
I'd *never* spec cantilever brakes on a Bike Friday.

--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[Deborah G.]

I can answer some questions but not all.  I have used a Pocket Rocket Pro on several long distance tours, including a ride across Ohio and the entire Erie Canal. I rode with panniers on the back but not the front (just didn't have them).   It did just fine on pavement. The only place a had a problem was an unpaved area with a lot of mud and sticks- the derailleur is low and I got a stick stuck in it and ended up at a bike shop.  But that's the only issue I've had in several thousand miles.    I use Schwalbe Marathon tires ( 1 3/8) that have a bit of a tread and they do well even on a bit of gravel.

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 5:02:45 AM UTC-7 Jacob Hirschmann wrote:

[peter stock]

My 2 cents.
15 years ago I solo credit card (i.e. hotel) trekked pulling a fully loaded trailer with an Air Friday which is similar to the Pocket Rocket in the wheel size and width (fairly skinny).
It worked, but had I had then my Pocket Llama or Pocket Sport (which is I believe basically a NWT with drop bars) I would have used one of them instead. the fatter tires just feel better, more steady on all surfaces.
Now maybe the problem was that I overloaded the trailer (Tip. Do NOT take a laptop and hard cover books when fully loaded trekking)

IMO a Pocket Rocket or other 451 wheeled, skinny tired bikes are great for speed and for emulating a fast traditional road bike feel, but don't feel they are the best design for utility - i.e. a variety of road surfaces - riding or touring.

7 years ago I did a fully supported Tour de Mont Blanc also on my Air Friday, carrying very little, just enough for the day, with the rest of the luggage being moved by the organizer.
that worked great too. Gearing of the IGH was excellent for some VERY steep mountain climbs. so for day riding on pavement with a very light load (camera, waterbottle, jacket, repair kit, phone....) Yes, I liked the 451 skinny tires.

though I know now I would have been just as happy on my Llama or Sport. I used to think 23mm tires were faster. Nowadays I really feel better on 28 or 32 or 35s. it's been proven I think that fat tires can be just as zippy as skinny ones.

More important to me than the style of BF or the weight is the setup. If I don't have drop bars, I feel like a fish out of water. I would feel ridiculous. But to each his own.
Give me drop bars - whether with barend shifters or STI "Click" brake lever/handle bar shifters - and I feel like a rocket. Now I might be a snob and draw the line at 105 though even Tiagra these days is a very very good groupset. I defy anyone to really notice the difference between today's Tiagra and Ultegra.

I also believe that trying to be as lightweight as possible is overrated.
Moving Rolling weight is not the same as dead weight.
I've never felt slow on my Llama or my Pocket Sport.
Paying a lot to shave a few hundred grams is IMO is a waste of money and effort.
Weight savings yield negligible marginal gain.

Peter

Peter Stock
temporarily in Norland ON Canada

Things that could prevent me from being joyful on a bike: flats, lack of a patch kit or pump, dark, cold, snow and ice, a broken chain, snapped cables, menacing traffic, a wrong size frame, broken seatpost bolt, 
Things that will NEVER prevent me from being joyful on a bike: my brake caliper fixing bolts being stainless steel and not titanium

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[Larry Newman]

I 2nd everything Peter said; echoes my experiences from riding multiple tours and owning different BFs.

• Touring with 451s on a PR towing the trailer. Fine everywhere but wider tires on gravel, dirt canal paths with tree roots, and cobblestone streets would have been an improvement. But one still has the smaller trailer tires. Both the width and circumference are factors.
• Weight when touring should be a non-issues. However, if the BF is your only bike and you frequently join group and day rides, the weight matters when keeping up with other riders.
• I purchased a heavier Pocket Sport with 406 wheels and 1.5 Schwalbe Kojacks for in-town riding, market trips with the trailer. Would not want to take it on a group ride, but could go for gravel and moderate off-road.
• I bounced too much with an Air Friday. Guess my spin was not smooth enough. 
• I vastly prefer the drop bars and did not like the Dual Drive internal rear hub. Heavier and a hassle to change a flat. Just felt less efficient when peddling.
• For touring on the Pocket Rocket, I installed a triple, went to the Capreo car wheel. I hack the now standard 9-26 Capreo cassette, removing the 3 pins and installing sprockets ranging from the 9-tooth to a 32-tooth to get an approximately 22-110 gear-inch range. Also installed a long-cage XT rear derailleur.
• Weight: Yes, only ride on a Brooks B-17, plus 1#.
• Can’t install tires on the PR wider than 1 1/8” and one still gets a build up of mud between the wheel and fork/frame when riding on dirt and crush rock paths. Hence, a NWT that can handle wider tires offers greater flexibility. Use a 23mm or 1/18 for local and group riding; install wider tires for touring.

As Peter said:

"Paying a lot to shave a few hundred grams is IMO is a waste of money and effort. Weight savings yield negligible marginal gain."

Larry

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[Steven Friedman]

Hi, where might I find the Schwalbe Marathon 1 3/8/35mm? I'm planning to ride my Rocket this summer on a 3-day trip with Adventure Cycling, and think having a slightly wider tire might be best.

Thanks,

Steven

[Robert Wavrin]

Steven,

I checked on the Schwalbe web site and they didn't have any 451 sized tires listed ( 1 1/8 or 1 3/8). This could just be part of the bicycle parts shortage ( I hope this is the case since I have 2 451 sized PRs in my garage).

Your best bet is looking for them on line or go to your LBS sooner rather than later (if you need 451s) as they won't be getting any more plentiful for some time due to the pandemic caused shortages of all things bicycle.

Bob

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[ALBERT HSU]

From the Bike Friday website:  https://store.bikefriday.com/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=16653&osCsid=247hat67k18fkl9vbllo55l3t2

Bike Friday/Green Gear Designed for the 2008 Beijing Games, the Maxxis DTH is super-light to accelerate, yet holds up for long lasting durability. The dual-compound tread corners incomparably on hard-packed tracks and rolls fast on the straights. store.bikefriday.com

---

From: y...@bikefriday.com <y...@bikefriday.com> on behalf of Robert Wavrin <robert...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 6:57 AM
To: Steven Friedman <sfri...@brandeismarin.org>; y...@bikefriday.com <y...@bikefriday.com>
Subject: Re: [yak] Re: Pocket Rocket for touring

 

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[Stacey]

I picked up a set of the Maxxis DTH on Nashbar for almost half the price of what they are listed in the BF store. 1 3/8... they actually fit on my PR just fine! I don't even have to deflate the tires (thought I would).

Stacey

[John Thurston]

I know it isn’t what you asked for, but I’m going to throw this out here anyway.

Consider the FASTR-X S-SPEC tire from Tioga.

It comes in a 1 3/8” 541-BSD tire, has a 120TPI casing, and is folding.

https://www.tiogausa.com/fastr-x-product.html

The Tioga PowerBlock is an excellent tire, and while I haven’t ridden the FASTR tires, I expect they are made on the same casing. If I ever wear out my PowerBocks, I’ll be buying some FASTR to try ‘em out. The Tioga tires each come is several versions. I figure if I’m paying shipping costs I may as well pay for the folding bead and 120TPI casing. If I could find 60TPI/wire-bead on a hook for retail, I’d probably buy that instead to see how they compare.

Looks like $40 from Modernbike

https://www.modernbike.com/product-2126297446

John Thurston

Juneau, Alaska

On Apr 28, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Steven Friedman <sfri...@brandeismarin.org> wrote:

Hi, where might I find the Schwalbe Marathon 1 3/8/35mm? I'm planning to ride my Rocket this summer on a 3-day trip with Adventure Cycling, and think having a slightly wider tire might be best.

[Steven Friedman]

Thank you all for such great recommendations. I really appreciate it. I think the tires I have will be OK, but I will probably invest in some others. I am doing the Adventure Cycling long weekend in the Olympic Peninsula (WA state) in late July.

Steven

[robert clark]

Wondered if there is a Shipping Manifest & Bill of Lading  for the MV Ever Given, Impounded by Egypt's Suez Authority, 

detailed enough to see if the container with more bicycle tires is on board, 

& convenient for your  research ?

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 5:02:45 AM UTC-7 Jacob Hirschmann wrote:

[robert clark]

This would be Asia to Rotterdam ,. to their  German warehouser,   who would then put the tires for US Distribution , back on another ship,

 for trans Atlantic shipping.

But I expect the US Distribuitor  has a TransPacific   shipping arrangement, without a European detour..