For Sale (Christmas price) POCKET LLAMA's (2)

[Greg Illes]

This is a re-post, with new pricing - - - 

One black, 20" frame tube (rider 5'8")

One burgundy 18" frame tube (rider 5'4")

Both equipped with SRAM DualDrive 9x3

Twist-grip shifters and V-brakes

Thracian recumbent 24-spoke wheels

Straight forks for increased trail (have one stock curved fork)

Stainless steel chains

Bikes are about 10 years old, not heavily used or ridden, stored indoors for last 7 years.

Price includes toolkit/pouch, tire levers, spare tube, tire pump -- ready to ride

asking $690 each OBO

Located in Los Gatos, California (halfway between San Jose and Santa Cruz)

[John Thurston]

On 12/6/2017 10:56 AM, Greg Illes wrote:
> *One black, 20" frame tube (rider 5'8")*
> *One burgundy 18" frame tube (rider 5'4")*
> - snip -

> asking $690 each OBO
> Located in Los Gatos, California

Greg, those are terrific looking bikes at a terrific price
:) I hope they find a new home. I wish I needed another
Llama, but I just can't think how to fit it into my life :(

--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[dirk b]

great price. Nice looking bikes...just wish there was no dualdrive. Never like that level of complexity...

---

From: Greg Illes <ill...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 11:56 AM
To: Bike Friday Yak!
Subject: [yak] For Sale (Christmas price) POCKET LLAMA's (2)

 

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[Greg Illes]

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty complex mechanically, but that particular geared hub has a history of great reliability. Makes for a very clean front end of course.

I liked the way it worked so much, I've actually converted my Titanium Tandem Friday to a Rohloff. Very nice setup.

G.

[Glen Nison]

I agree with Greg. I have had my dual drive on my dahon for almost 10 years and  on a BF Tikit for 3 years and haven’t had a single problem. The only problem is at some time in the future it may be hard to get parts as SRAM has discontinued the Dual Drive (there seem to be plenty right now so I may be one just in case).

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[John Thurston]

On 12/6/2017 9:52 PM, dirk b wrote:
> Nice looking bikes...just wish there was no dualdrive.
> Never like that level of complexity.

Complexity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

I've never had a push-rod-operated DualDrive hub like
Greg's. I have a lot of miles (on singles, double and triple
tandems) with the chain-operated Sachs 3x7, and quite a few
with a Sturmey-Archer CS-RF3 (FM30) hub. I don't find them
complex at all. I find 'em a bit heavy, and wish they had
wider steps, but complexity is not a term I've ever
associated with 'em.

Me'be the push-rod units are way more complex than the
pull-chain units. I can't say. But if I had a need for a
Llama, Greg's are a screaming deal and I'd be all over 'em.
Fortunately, my bicycle needs are currently met and someone
else can grab 'em!

--
John "Heavy? Yes. Complex? Me'be" Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[Greg Illes]

Yeah, when I said "complex", I wasn't talking about the outer elements -- they're dirt-simple. I was just referring to the intricate clockwork on the inside of the hub. Fortunately, it seems to have been well-engineered, and is pretty rugged by all accounts.

[dirk b]

I guess I’m a simple sort. Dereilleurs are more my speed. And the discontinue factor doesn’t make me too thrilled either. My Sat-R-Day has one. So far so good. I know bf can rebuild. (Or at least they could when Tim Link was there. Not sure now. Keep it oiled and away you go.

Hotmail sent from an iOS device. That seems like a bit of a contradiction......

---

From: Greg Illes <ill...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 10:23:06 AM
To: Bike Friday Yak!
Cc: y...@thurstons.us
Subject: Re: [yak] For Sale (Christmas price) POCKET LLAMA's (2)

 

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[dirk b]

Yep, those are a smokin’ deal. Chris king HS real nice. I got my P-llama off LA Craigslist got 599. It’s interesting to see what comes and goes. Mine sat on there for weeks. Started at 1200, dropped to 800 then stopped at 599 before I took the plunge. It’s all conventional. With cane creek HS and 3x9 SRAM. (Triple front)

Hotmail sent from an iOS device. That seems like a bit of a contradiction......

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From: Greg Illes <ill...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 10:23:06 AM
To: Bike Friday Yak!
Cc: y...@thurstons.us
Subject: Re: [yak] For Sale (Christmas price) POCKET LLAMA's (2)

 

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[John Thurston]

On 12/7/2017 12:08 PM, dirk b wrote:
> My Sat-R-Day has one. So far so good. I know bf can
> rebuild. (Or at least they could when Tim Link was there.
> Not sure now. Keep it oiled and away you go.

I'm sure Bike Friday can do a rebuild.
Another well-known provider of overhaul service is Aaron's
Bicycle in Seattle:
http://www.rideyourbike.com/internalgears.shtml

As you say, "keep it oiled and away you go." The planetary
gears should run for years and years.

My experience with the Sachs is the the weak spots are not
the planetary gears, but the wheel bearings. The bearings
are not well sealed (by the standards of this decade), and
hub disassembly is required to grease the bearing balls and
races. On my Sachs, I do this every couple of years.

If you aren't afraid to get your hands dirty, this repack is
very similar to any other cup-and-cone repack. Work only
from the *left* side and you'll find only a single lock nut
and bearing cone stand between you and all the balls and
races. When the left side locknut and cone are removed, the
entire 3-speed unit slips out the right side of the hub
shell. Ignore the complicated bit in the center, and
clean/grease the balls and races you see. Slip the core back
into the hub shell from the right, and reinstall the cone
and locknut on the left.

If you don't want to get your hands dirty, any LBS (even
those afraid of internally geared hubs) should be able to
handle this task. I suggest telling them:
A) Don't misplace any of the axle nuts or washers
B) Don't touch the cassette or right-hand nuts
C) Don't do anything to the planetary core
D) Perform bearing adjustment *only on the left side*

I've never been inside a Sachs/SRAM DualDrive, but my read
of the exploded parts-diagram leads me to think it can be
handled exactly the same way. Work from the left. Ignore the
core.

I've yet to be inside my Sturmey F30 hub, but my read of the
parts-diagram leads me think it can *not* be handled in this
simple way.

[John Allen]

Please see comments below expanding on John's advice

At 05:38 PM 12/7/2017, John Thurston wrote:
>On 12/7/2017 12:08 PM, dirk b wrote:
>>My Sat-R-Day has one. So far so good. I know bf can
>>rebuild. (Or at least they could when Tim Link was there.
>>Not sure now. Keep it oiled and away you go.
>I'm sure Bike Friday can do a rebuild.
>Another well-known provider of overhaul service is Aaron's Bicycle in Seattle:
> http://www.rideyourbike.com/internalgears.shtml
>
>As you say, "keep it oiled and away you go." The planetary gears
>should run for years and years.
>
>My experience with the Sachs is the the weak spots are not the
>planetary gears, but the wheel bearings. The bearings are not well
>sealed (by the standards of this decade),

-- or by the standard of the classic Sturmey-Archer hubs, which also
had an oil port. One issue these days is that hub manufacturers
expect bicyclists not to do maintenance, and will get freaked out if
a hub leaks oil, so all of the internal-gear hubs except the Rohloff
and the Shimano Alfine 11-speed are grease-lubricated. Aaron has some
examples here http://www.rideyourbike.com/sramIGH.shtml and here:
http://www.rideyourbike.com/shimanoIGH.shtml

>and hub disassembly is required to grease the bearing balls and
>races. On my Sachs, I do this every couple of years.

That is good, but any Sachs/SRAM hub which uses a pullchain (e.g.,
the 3 x 7) or clickbox (e.g., DualDrive) can also be oiled through
the right end of the axle after removing the pullchain, or clickbox
and shifter rods. Oil weeping out through the bearings is messy but
it cleans them. Phil Wood oil is tacky and doesn't weep as fast as
others. Lighter oil is advisable in extreme cold. Coaster-brake hubs
are more picky about lubrication due to heat issues and require
high-temperature grease, one more reason I avoid them.

Aaron recommends a complete relubrication even with a *new* hub.
Often the factory lubrication is inadequate. And with time, the
grease accumulates wear particles which further accelerate wear.

Above all, avoid submersing the hub in water. Rust and grit will eat
the internals.

General info on IG hubs, with links to info on specific hubs and on
lubrication, is here: http://sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html

>If you aren't afraid to get your hands dirty, this repack is very
>similar to any other cup-and-cone repack. Work only from the *left*
>side and you'll find only a single lock nut and bearing cone stand
>between you and all the balls and races. When the left side locknut
>and cone are removed, the entire 3-speed unit slips out the right
>side of the hub shell. Ignore the complicated bit in the center, and
>clean/grease the balls and races you see. Slip the core back into
>the hub shell from the right, and reinstall the cone and locknut on the left.
>
>If you don't want to get your hands dirty, any LBS (even those
>afraid of internally geared hubs) should be able to handle this
>task. I suggest telling them:
> A) Don't misplace any of the axle nuts or washers
> B) Don't touch the cassette or right-hand nuts
> C) Don't do anything to the planetary core
> D) Perform bearing adjustment *only on the left side*

The mechanic also should be careful not to invert a bearing retainer.
The hub will have a lot of friction and destroy itself eventually if
this is done. I've seen this.

>I've never been inside a Sachs/SRAM DualDrive, but my read of the
>exploded parts-diagram leads me to think it can be handled exactly
>the same way. Work from the left. Ignore the core.
>
>I've yet to be inside my Sturmey F30 hub, but my read of the
>parts-diagram leads me think it can *not* be handled in this simple way.

I don't see why not. Why don't you think so? Certainly, though it can
be oiled through the right end of the axle. F30 info:
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/cs-rk3-black

>--
>John Thurston
>Juneau, Alaska

John S. Allen

jsallen *at* bikexprt.com

http://bikexprt.com



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[John Thurston]

On Dec 7, 2017, at 5:05 PM, John Allen <jsa...@bikexprt.com> wrote:

>> I've yet to be inside my Sturmey F30 hub, but my read of the parts-diagram leads me think it can *not* be handled in this simple way.
>

> I don't see why not. Why don't you think so?

Looking at the exploded diagram, I don't see a cir-clip holding the planetary core onto the axle. When I tip the core out of the Sachs, everything stays nice and neat on the axle. This is the "simple way" I'm talking about, and makes it super-simple to clean and grease the bearing balls and races.

[John Allen]

That's right, there is no circlip. So, after loosening the righthand
ball cup,instead of lifting the core out of the wheel, hold the
right end of the axle in a vise, left side of the wheel upward, and
lift the wheel off the core. Unlike with many habs (but as also with
older Sturmey-Archer hubs), there is no lip at the right side of the
hub shell to catch internal parts. You can screw the left bearing
cone onto the left end of the axle to keep parts from sliding off

John S. Allen

Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

CyclingSavvy Instructor
League Cycling Instructor #77-C
Member, Board of Directors, Charles River Wheelers

jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
http://bikexprt.com

http://john-s-allen.com/blog
http://streetsmarts.bostonbiker.org

[Dr Leah Remeika-Dugan]

My very capable bike mechanic said to me, regarding 'tuning' up my 1999 Sachs hub, "not to fiddle with or otherwise open up the older hubs" and "they're made to go on for-ever!"

Just my two pence

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[John Allen]

"They're made to go on forever" -- That is baloney. Your very capable
bike mechanic doesn't want to work on this hub or doesn't have the
skills to. An appropriate answer is to refer you to a mechanic who
specializes in rebuilding this hub so you can make the decision
whether the rebuild justifies the price.

Granted, finding parts for a 1999 Sachs hub may not be easy, and may
make the rebuild impractical for a local bike shop, and this in turn
may lead to mechanics' not gaining experience with this hub.

But there are a few mechanics who specialize in this work and stock
the parts -- notably, on this list, Aaron Goss (rideyourbike.com,
Seattle, Washington, USA). Others, please speak up. Well, probably
most speak German but on the other hand, your using the word "pence"
to refer to currency rather than to the current US Vice President,
suggests that your shipping charges to Germany will probably be much
lower than to Seattle.

If the hub is in good condition, it may need only cleaning and
relubrication, not new parts. The best bet to keep an older hub going
is to do this work periodically to prevent premature wear.

http://sheldonbrown.com/sachs-internal.html lists a few Sachs hub
specialists and describes lubrication strategies. Any Sachs/SRAM hub
with a pullchain of clickbox can be re-oiled through the end of the
axle, but it also should be cleaned and inspected periodically. .

At 04:47 AM 12/8/2017, Dr Leah Remeika-Dugan wrote:
>My very capable bike mechanic said to me, regarding 'tuning' up my
>1999 Sachs hub, "not to fiddle with or otherwise open up the older
>hubs" and "they're made to go on for-ever!"
>
>Just my two pence

John S. Allen
7 University Park
Waltham, MA 02453-1523 USA
781 891-9307 home
781 856-4058 mobile
jsa...@bikexprt.com