Diamond Llama vs. NWT

[Rick Mason]

I know the Diamond Llama can fit bigger tires (2.3 vs 1.75?), and has a slightly higher Bottom Bracket (not sure how much), and per Bike Friday, is more rugged.

Yes, it's ~ $100 more, but all things considered, the tire clearance would seem to make it a better choice, but I believe the NWT is still the best seller by far.

So what am I missing? there must be some negatives that are not obvious - or is it just not worth the extra cost for most people?

Do any of you have both so can comment on the differences?

[Joseph Bernard]

I believe the Llama is also heavier. Weight is everything in a folding/packable bike you're going to carry around, and a lot of people aren't going to spend more money for more weight. 

Joe Bernard 

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/f6ccd4a2-3185-4983-815e-1d01eb21be03n%40bikefriday.com.

[Jeff Gillberg]

I was very recently told by BF sales that the NWT with disc brakes and Diamond Llama have exactly the same tire clearance, 2.1-2.2 inches. 

Stay safe-

Jeff

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 29, 2020, at 3:39 PM, Joseph Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/CAJPyhWZjan8SU%3DsEZ4mOMvkSS7duf1TEBcNwfk4rGriiB%2BQT%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Eric Daume]

The DL is rated for 2.1" tires on the website; it would be great if real world experience indicated it could fit a 2.3". My old Pocket Llama can barely clear a 2.0" slick (Tioga Powerblock).

My PL has the higher bottom bracket, but at some point, they dropped the bottom bracket, so the DL has the same height as the NWT (with the same tires, of course).

I've also learned somewhere that the NWT can optionally be ordered so the hinge is in front of the bottom bracket, so the chain won't fall off every time you fold it. The DL doesn't have this option.

The NWT can be ordered with a lightweight frame option, the DL has a heavy frame option (so kind of diverging in different directions).

It would be nice if all this was clearly spelled out on the website.

Still and all, I love the looks of the DL. I sometimes think about rolling my current three folders (older Crusoe, older PL, and a Xootr Swift), into one Diamond Llama.  But I like each of my current little wheeled bikes for various reasons.

Eric

--

[robert clark]

Because the fold hinge design of the Tikit  was carried over ,  (folding above the BB Shell, integrated rear triangle)

and the rear dropouts move  on a pivot to tension  chains on IGH,  also was on Season Tikits.

the latest NWT  is available in the 'Silk' option, allowing a Gates belt drivetrain ..

The Llama the hinge is still behind the BB,  Internal gear hubs need a Chain tensioner.. 

though the BB height is lower than the previous Llama .

 (Older Llama, My feet are higher so get less wet going through puddles in the rain , (with mudguards)) ..  

[Rick]

@Joseph - "I believe the Llama is also heavier"  That makes sense, and would be my guess as well, though the web site suggests otherwise? although for my use .5 - 1.0 pounds isn't going to sway me.

@ Jeff - "I was very recently told by BF sales that the NWT with disc brakes and Diamond Llama have exactly the same tire clearance, 2.1-2.2 inches."  Now that's interesting. If so, I'm not sure I see much reason to go Llama.

@ Eric - "I've also learned somewhere that the NWT can optionally be ordered so the hinge is in front of the bottom bracket, so the chain won't fall off every time you fold it."  Also interesting. Since that isn't the norm, but would otherwise seem desirable, I wonder what the downsides are? It would seem to make the NWT even more versetile.

@Robert - I think that explains the comments by Eric...

------------------

So, the reason for the asking - I'm considering a move that would make it desirable for me to reduce the # of bikes I own. Plus, the Friday I own (purchased on EBAY) is probably 1-2 CM long, so might be worth replacing. I'm trying to see if there is a Bike Friday set up that would make it realistic to downsize to a single Friday... or 2 bikes at most.

The things I am looking at are:   My Friday has the non-folding ("Easy Pack") seat post. good for travel perhaps, but not quick folding. I have V-brakes vs. disk brakes. Not a reason to change, but if I were to... Mine has the 1 1/4 steerer. Long term, they're getting hard to find, and are expensive.  The reach is a bit long (above), and I'd like to be able to use larger tires.

Were it not for the travel convenience, frankly, I'd just use my traditional touring bike, perhaps also keeping my lugged steel stage racing bike. But being able to pack up the bike in 1/2 an hour is good.

Thanks,

Rick

[Eric Daume]

Do the new BF models have 1-1/8" headsets?  I wonder how they fit the stem riser tube if so. It's already pretty small diameter.

Eric

[Rick]

Yes, they do. The change was made in the last couple of years due to 1 1/4 becoming obsolete.

I presume the stem riser is changed as well.

[Geof Gee]

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 2:44 PM Rick <rick.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, they do. The change was made in the last couple of years due to 1 1/4 becoming obsolete.

I presume the stem riser is changed as well.

I thought that the fork is different but the stem riser is the same.   

How long is the present stem?  Perhaps a shorter swan stem would be good enough.  

-G

--

"Sometimes I forget things.  Who I am.  Where I am.  Unimportant things. But I'm not insane. "

[Rick Mason]

"Perhaps a shorter swan stem would be good enough"

A shorter stem will make me more comfortable. However it will also remove some weight from the front wheel reducing stability, which is already an issue.

Plus, a shorter stem means less leverage to help with stability.

Per Walter, I want *more* weight on the front not less. As is, the bike is okay, just not ideal. When I compare it to my full size touring bike, it is a bit less comfortable, and a bit less stable, particularly at slow speed.

The other suggestion Walter had was wider handlebars, again for better leverage. I do intend to pursue that once bike Friday is back to providing split handlebars as parts replacements. Last I knew they didn't have the resources to do that due to covid.

[robert clark]

they adopted a rather unique way of using a threadless headset..  

It also requires a special tool to do the set up ..  

[robert clark]

Then Specify a shorter man  frame tube, in your build order..  ,  so you can then use a longer stem .. ,  

I bought used, built already, bikes and so adapted to what was in front of me..

for  having my adequate fit..  

..

On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 7:13:26 PM UTC-8 rick.a...@gmail.com wrote:

[Geof Gee]

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 10:47 PM robert clark <ro3ert...@gmail.com> wrote:

they adopted a rather unique way of using a threadless headset..  

It also requires a special tool to do the set up ..  

@Robert ... But is the swan stem or the stem post used with an ahead stem still the same?  I think so.

@Rick ... How much shorter of a stem do you need?  Maybe you can just move some loads to the front wheel. Regardless, good luck! 

-G

Arlington, VA

   

[robert clark]

What's the bottom end that goes in the fork steerer ?  

typically a QR lever lets you pull it out.

On my Llama  because the wedge fixed steering mast folded, no QR .

the bell shaped piece above the headset  had a clamping bolt rather than a QR clamp... 

[Rick]

@Geof -- Short answer - I *think* 1-2 cm, which admittedly isn't much.  And yes, more weight up front.

Long answer - I need to dig through my parts bin to find my "Round Tuit", so I can... get around to accurately measuring and compare the reach/stack of both my REI/Novara Randonee and my Bike Friday. Either way, the size difference isn't awful - I did ride my Friday from Canada to Mexico on the ACA Pacific Coast route last summer, and I didn't die. I just found it a bit stretched, and a bit wonky below 5 MPH. Part of the low speed instability I now know is due to meds I was put on a year and a half ago, but still, my Randonee is better at slow speeds and a bit more comfortable for long days in the saddle. Given that I am somewhat addicted to touring, comfort does matter.

The whole point of my asking about this is part of my seeing if I can create / have made a Friday that is as comfortable as my Randonee, and that can be very close to as stable. If I can, then a likely residence move that may be to a smaller home can be simplified by having only 1 or 2 bikes, while still having the easy travel option that the Friday provides.

From what I've gathered here, the answer to my original question on NWT vs Llama is - as long as I get disk brakes (which in 2021 I would), there is little beyond cosmetics to gain by getting a Llama. That said, I still have to decide if the benefits of replacing my current Friday are worth the cost at all.

For reference -- not that it matters too much, the things I would change (also listed in the original post) are: 1) My Friday has the non-folding ("Easy Pack") seat post. Good for packing, but not quick folding. 2) I have V-brakes vs. disk brakes. Not a reason to change, but if I were to... 3) My Friday has the 1 1/4 steerer. Certainly stiffer, but long term, they're getting hard to find, and are expensive.  4) The reach is a bit long, and 5) I'd like to be able to use larger tires if needed. 

None of those reasons are enough to justify a change on their own, but might as a whole.

I have some other questions, like how big of a large cog / length of a rear dérailleur arm can I have before I get in trouble (I'll ask these questions separately so searches by others in the future can be more productive).

Rick

------ Original Message ------

[Geof Gee]

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 11:37 PM Rick <rick.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

@Geof -- Short answer - I *think* 1-2 cm, which admittedly isn't much.  And yes, more weight up front.

Long answer - I need to dig through my parts bin to find my "Round Tuit", so I can... get around to accurately measuring and compare the reach/stack of both my REI/Novara Randonee and my Bike Friday. Either way, the size difference isn't awful - I did ride my Friday from Canada to Mexico on the ACA Pacific Coast route last summer, and I didn't die. I just found it a bit stretched, and a bit wonky below 5 MPH. Part of the low speed instability I now know is due to meds I was put on a year and a half ago, but still, my Randonee is better at slow speeds and a bit more comfortable for long days in the saddle. Given that I am somewhat addicted to touring, comfort does matter.

The whole point of my asking about this is part of my seeing if I can create / have made a Friday that is as comfortable as my Randonee, and that can be very close to as stable. If I can, then a likely residence move that may be to a smaller home can be simplified by having only 1 or 2 bikes, while still having the easy travel option that the Friday provides.

From what I've gathered here, the answer to my original question on NWT vs Llama is - as long as I get disk brakes (which in 2021 I would), there is little beyond cosmetics to gain by getting a Llama. That said, I still have to decide if the benefits of replacing my current Friday are worth the cost at all.

Interesting.  My experience with bicycle handling is that there is always some trial and error and that sometimes the results are unintuitive.   Bike Friday used to offer a fit bar where the height and reach could be adjusted and then sent back to get a new swan stem.  I had hurt my neck about a decade ago and bought one with a face cap to easily swap bars.  Since then, I've adjusted it a few times as I got better and swapped bars.  

Obviously, trial and error can get a little expensive and time consuming.  

Good luck!

-G   

[John Thurston]

On 1/3/2021 4:04 PM, Geof Gee wrote:
> Bike
> Friday used to offer a fit bar where the height and reach could be adjusted
> and then sent back to get a new swan stem.

As far as I know, they still do. I almost did that, but then realized
those boxes of parts on my shelves were actually good for something.

My most recent custom light-weight stem riser was prototyped using a
straight stem riser and angle-adjustable threadless headsets from my
inventory. When I had what I needed, I took it off the bike and shipped
it in to Eugene. They built me a light-weight riser/stem, and powder
coated it to match my old frame.

--
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[robert clark]

they had supplied an adjustable riser-stem to that purpose. , dual in height & reach.. 

--
another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/topic/yak/79gAn9KP__0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/41ee1e02-3235-1c2b-7199-5dc8d668d813%40thurstons.us.

[Jacob Hirschmann]

Very interesting reading. Thank u. 

Please clarify what u mean by a face cap 

Kind regards

Jacob

J Hirschmann Insurance Consultants cc

FSP # 10407

P O Box 92089 Norwood 2117

Tel: 011 7866861

On 04 Jan 2021, at 03:04, Geof Gee <geo...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/CACEjqhRnShAMd6OH0pHpyG4z-Zszq%3D%2BWSCmQbbnHgnn-AAWYRA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Geof Gee]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 2:10 AM Jacob Hirschmann <ja...@jhins.co.za> wrote:

Very interesting reading. Thank u. 

Please clarify what u mean by a face cap 

Kind regards

Jacob

J Hirschmann Insurance Consultants cc

FSP # 10407

P O Box 92089 Norwood 2117

Tel: 011 7866861

Rather than get a traditional clamp where you slide a bar through the opening and tighten -- see this Nitto stem ... https://velo-orange.com/products/nitto-technomic-stem-tall-26-0-clamp -- which Bike Friday swan stems also use but with two screws, I asked them to use a more modern ahead stem face plate -- see the fourth picture here ... https://velo-orange.com/collections/stems/products/threadless-stem-25-4 -- to make it easier to swap bars.  

Bike Friday often sells bikes with their split bars which lends itself to the traditional clamp.  But if you want to use something else, I find the ahead-style clamp easier to use and swap.  

I can send a picture tonight if you like.  

-G

Arlington, VA

[Rick Mason]

Well folks, I finally found my Round Tuit and determined how much shorter of a stem I need

The meaningful measurement here is reach - My Bike Friday NWT has about a 1.75 cm longer reach than my REI Randonee. About what I thought. This of  course assumes my somewhat rustic measuring system is consistent. While the Randonee is quite comfortable, it is probably a wee bit too relaxed, and thus I pay for it into the wind, so splitting the difference might make sense.

But I don't want to move weight to the rear, so assuming I keep what I have, a 10mm / 1cm shorter stem makes sense, and then move the saddle forward a smidge to put the weight back up front.  Or just move the saddle...

I measured stack height as well, but given the long stems used on Friday's, that measurement really isn't meaningful. I also measured rear and front center (Bottom Bracket to axles) and while slightly different, the differences are small (1/4" rear, 1/2" front - consistent with the longer reach).

But as I noted before, the whole point of the post is to understand how the NWT differs from the Llama, if I were to buy a new bike. And you folks did answer that question. As for size, I'd likely size down 1-2 cm

The other interesting thing is that I can definitely feel the difference 2 cm causes (~ 1 inch), but can also adapt mostly. I guess that's why historically bikes come in sizes that are in about 2 cm increments.

Rick

[Geof Gee]

For the handlebar height, I would measure from the stem clamp to the floor as well as the saddle height to the floor on both the Bike Friday and alternative bike.  

If you're mimicking the fit, you'd expect that difference to be the same across both bikes.  

(there might be some noise with the seat tube angle, crank length, etc ... but I think that will be noise)

Are the handlebars the similar?  Assuming you have road bars, you can often find drop bars with less reach forward as well as ones that bend back toward the rider.  

(See the Nitto Noodle below)  

https://www.rivbike.com/products/nitto-noodle-handlebar  

(See compact bars)

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/group-tests/bike-handlebars-345953

Earlier you wrote something about trying wider bars.  On average, moving to a wider bar typically means you want the clamp closer to you.  

By the way, if you're really interested in trying different bars, the "what bars" database is really handy.  

https://whatbars.com

Good luck Rick.  

-G

Arlington, VA

[Rick]

I measured from the BB to the bars and saddle as the BB of my Friday is 1/2 inch higher, though as you note, the relative difference is what's important.

As to the handlebars... No, the're different. The bars on the Friday are quite different - about 1" / 2 cm narrower, greater in reach, and greater in drop. Something I intend to change. The gotcha is, last I knew, Green Gear wasn't doing bars separately from bikes due to COVID staffing issues, and I have the custom swan stem, which requires a split bar... Plus, my existing bars have a 25.4 mm clamp size vs. the 31.8 that is now standard. Some 25.4 mm bars are available, but the best selection is for 31.8

So what I really need to do is replace the stem riser, use a regular stem, and regular bars... Or have a new one piece swan stem made for me, along with new split bars.

Either way, Green Gear didn't have resources to do so at the last time I asked - yes, I need to check back.

I'm not sure why I'd need to have a shorter stem for wider bars - Could you elaborate?

[John Thurston]

On 1/7/2021 8:31 AM, Rick wrote:
> So what I really need to do is replace the stem riser, use a regular
> stem, and regular bars... Or have a new one piece swan stem made for me,
> along with new split bars.

If you can fit the un-split bars into your suitcase, then I suggest you
have a new integrated/swan riser/stem made using an open-faced,
four-bolt, 31.8mm clamp. When I had this done, I'm pretty sure the clamp
they used came from Paragon Machine Works.

https://www.paragonmachineworks.com/frame-building-parts/stem-parts/sp2001-steel-back-stem-plate.html

I like my stem, and if I had a new Friday made I'd do exactly this again.

As far as I know, Bike Friday has never split and sleeved 31.8 bars. It
is also my understanding that Bike Friday will no longer split and
sleeve customer-supplied bars. Only a phone call to them will reveal
what 25.4 or 26.0 bars they may split and sleeve, or if/when they are
available.

[Geof Gee]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:31 PM Rick <rick.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I'm not sure why I'd need to have a shorter stem for wider bars - Could you elaborate?

If we're talking flat-type bars -- that's what I had in mind when I wrote the statement -- they're typically wider than one's shoulders.  So if you widen your arms, your forward reach is less.  There are some folks that like narrow road bars -- should be aerodynamically advantageous -- so wider bars might increase the reach if the present width is less than shoulder width.  But if your present bars are shoulder width or more now, putting wider ones one will shorten your reach.  

-G

 

 

[Larry Van Horn]

How do we get off this email chain? If you know , please advise. Thx!


Sent from the all new Aol app for iOS

--

another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bike Friday Yak!" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit

https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/CACEjqhSN8U6FP_-09NUYvZdFEfCnJZLFezD0Z7twAtHXax8qiA%40mail.gmail.com

.

[Geof Gee]

Larry,

You'll have to check and test your settings for the Bike Friday Yak.  Since people interact in Google Groups different ways ... some people use it like a forum that you visit whereas others use it like a listserv ... it's hard to give a global answer.  

-G

[Dominique B.]

Re: "getting off this email chain" ==> At the bottom of every single message, there's a line that tells you how to unsubscribe:

 | To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to yak+uns...@bikefriday.com.

Or go to https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/g/yak/membership to manage your subscription.

  -=dominique b.

Seattle, WA - USA

Grenoble, France

[Rick]

Thanks for clarifying. That's what i thought you meant.

I'm actually talking drop bars, so that reduces the change a bit.  And yes, the reach will change if I widen the bars, but probably less that the difference between stem lengths typically available. 

I'll check with Green Gear on a new stem so I can get new bars.

------ Original Message ------

From: "Geof Gee" <geo...@gmail.com>

To: "Rick" <rick.a...@gmail.com>

Cc: "Bike Friday Yak!" <y...@bikefriday.com>