Perceivable differences
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Dave Feldman
Oct 21, 2021, 7:26:55 PM10/21/21
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Does anyone on the list have and ride both a New World Tourist and a Pocket Rocket Pro? What are differences in the ride that you can tell?
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Thanks
David Feldman
Vancouver WA
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Hugh L
Oct 21, 2021, 7:59:25 PM10/21/21
to Dave Feldman, Bike Friday Yak!
I owned a NWT as my first BF beginning in 1995. Chose it because of the heavier & beefier frame compared to the then Pocket Rocket-only option. Also liked the greater variety of tires that were/are available for 406 wheels. Although I no longer own a NWT, I still consider it to be the best all-around BF, as well as its best workhorse without going to the Haul-a-day. I used it for commuting and touring with the trailer, plus did a couple of C-rides with it. I would further note that 406 wheels, properly geared, will do well for long, timed rides like the El Tour de Tucson Century or on timed metric C-rides. In 2001, I replaced it with an Air Glide.
My present BF is a PRP, and it replaced my AG in about 2010. It is extremely nimble, fast, and scales out about 19 lbs with saddle and pedals. Although my old NWT was custom sized, when my PRP was built, I tweaked the frame sizing a bit for an even more comfortable ride; its been the only bike that I have been able to get on and ride comfortably for 50-75 miles after having not ridden for a couple of weeks. Since the rear triangle has eyelets for racks, I have used a BF folding rack with panniers for a couple of extended weekend tours; my plan was to use it for more sagged tours and not extended self-supported tours. There have only been a couple of times when I felt that the lighter frame flexed more than I thought it would. Choice of tires is not as great.
With practice, either bike can be ridden hands-free. If you are more general in your riding, the NWT will do all you want. If you are more of a club rider, the PRP might be a better match.
Hope this helps,
Hugh
Eugene, OR
Current: PRP, 451-P Llama, AF
Former: NWT, PR, SRD, TTXL
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 4:26 PM Dave Feldman <feldm...@gmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone on the list have and ride both a New World Tourist and a Pocket Rocket Pro? What are differences in the ride that you can tell?ThanksDavid Feldman
Hugh Larkin
Eugene, OR
Cruzin' the Globe on 2 Small Wheels!
You have no such accurate remembrance of a country you have driven through, as you gain by riding a bicycle. --Ernest Hemingway, 'Battle for Paris', 1944
Eugene, OR
Cruzin' the Globe on 2 Small Wheels!
You have no such accurate remembrance of a country you have driven through, as you gain by riding a bicycle. --Ernest Hemingway, 'Battle for Paris', 1944
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John Thurston
Oct 21, 2021, 8:25:25 PM10/21/21
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On 10/21/2021 3:59 PM, Hugh L wrote:
> My present BF is a PRP, and it replaced my AG in about 2010. . .
> Choice of tires is not as great.
How fat a tire will the Pocket Rocket accept? 1 1/8? 1 3/8?
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John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Sirflakeyjake
Oct 21, 2021, 9:08:55 PM10/21/21
to John Thurston, y...@bikefriday.com
Depends on brakes on the PR. 1 3/8 will easily fit V-brakes, but not dual-pivots.
My PRP with its dual-pivot brakes could not accept the 1 3/8, but no issue with the 1 1/8.
To muddy the issue, my disc’ed 451 Pocket Llama (or Rocket Llama) has been modified to accept Tioga’s 1.6 (yeah, decimal not fraction) Powerblock tires.
Hugh
Cruisin' the Globe on 2 Small Wheels!!
> On Oct 21, 2021, at 5:25 PM, John Thurston <y...@thurstons.us> wrote:
>
>
My PRP with its dual-pivot brakes could not accept the 1 3/8, but no issue with the 1 1/8.
To muddy the issue, my disc’ed 451 Pocket Llama (or Rocket Llama) has been modified to accept Tioga’s 1.6 (yeah, decimal not fraction) Powerblock tires.
Hugh
Cruisin' the Globe on 2 Small Wheels!!
> On Oct 21, 2021, at 5:25 PM, John Thurston <y...@thurstons.us> wrote:
>
>
Larry Newman
Oct 22, 2021, 10:01:45 AM10/22/21
to Hugh Larkin, John Thurston, y...@bikefriday.com
Completely agree with Hugh’s input.
I’ve had my PR since 1994, my first BF. I have subsequently owned an Air Friday (found I bounced too much and got a sore ass—yes, not a perfect spin); NWT (liked the tire advantages Hugh mentioned, but had flat bars that I didn’t like); Pocket Sport (still own it. Use it for poor weather and local trips. Has drop bars, 406 wheels, about 3# heavier, slower).
My PR has been in 20# countries, mostly using the trailer on tours up to 4 weeks. I carry one spare tire (never used) and have occasionally wished I had the wider tires for the dirt paths and cobble stones in large city centers and loose rail-to-trail paths, like the Katy Trail). All in all, the PR is still my favorite.
When going on local group club rides, I did finally resort to buying a standard bike. Found that the difference was about 2 mph, just my estimate, so easier to keep up.
Larry Newman
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Squire Black
Oct 27, 2021, 12:45:47 AM10/27/21
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I've discontinued using all of my bikes that are unable to accept at least a 32m-wide tire. WIder tires are no slower, and a lot more comfortable — important as I get older.
I find that I can just get a 451 Tioga Fastr-X 1⅜" tire under the Shimano Ultegra brakes on my Air Friday. The limiting factor is the height of the tire, not the width. The folding version of the Fastr-X is a great tire, supple and light (the same weight as the 28mm Durano) — but currently unavailable anywhere in the USA that I can find, because of supply-chain issues. In contrast, the Primo Comet 1⅜" tires fit with room to spare, but are heavier and stiffer (and cheaper).
I love my Air Friday because of the suspension, but sometimes wish that I had purchased a 406-wheeled bike for the ability to run wider tires. The trade-off is V-brakes.
Squire Black
Oct 27, 2021, 12:49:30 AM10/27/21
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Incidentally, I should have said that I have never perceived my Air Friday to be any slower than my Trek 5000 (before I sold it) or my Atlantis. The only thing that noticeably affects my speed is wearing a jacket. I've used my Air Friday for a complete series of Brevets — 200km through 600km, as well as touring all over the world. I even rode a time trial on it once.
Larry Newman
Oct 27, 2021, 9:24:11 AM10/27/21
to Squire Black, Bike Friday Yak!, John Thurston, Hugh Larkin
I think some the difference between my 700c-equipped bikes and Pocket Rocket (2 mph estimate) is due to 2 factors: tire diameter and total bike weight.
Seems the larger tires offer less rolling resistance, especially as the surface roughness increases. Here in MT, most of the roads are chip sealed.
Weight: All my bikes have 1# Brooks B-17 saddles. The weights are approximately:
PR: 23# (1994 model)
Pocket Sport 26# (guessing 10-15 years old)
LeMond Concourse Aluminum w/carbon fork: 21# (20 years old w/Ultegra 9 Spd)
BMC LSC01 Carbon 19# (10 Years old with Campy Super Record 11 Spd)
Having never ridden carbon before, it was a huge comfort improvement over the LeMond.
Interested to see if my perceived differences make sense to the more scientific owners on this list.
Larry Newman
bo...@nucleus.com
Oct 27, 2021, 9:13:21 PM10/27/21
to Larry Newman, Squire Black, Bike Friday Yak!, John Thurston, Hugh Larkin
I’m not familiar with the Pocket Rocket, but I’m very interested in the comparison between 20-inch and 700C tires. I spent time this summer and fall touring with both types: pavement and gravel on Trek 520 (38mm); pavement, crushed rock, dirt, and gravel on BF NWT (1.5 or ~38mm)--both with Schwalbe Marathon tires, both fully loaded with camping gear in front and rear panniers. On smooth pavement, the BF might have been a little slower, but the difference was barely noticeable compared to other factors like wind and grade; might be up to 2 mph, as others have suggested. On rougher surfaces, the difference became more pronounced and might even be up to 4 mph (6 kph) at times. The smaller wheels also transmitted bumps more directly to my butt (a literal pain in the ass), but I did appreciate the low center of gravity and how nimbly the BF navigated around roots and rocks.
The BF tour included the Great Allegheny Passage and C&O Towpath trails, between Pittsburgh and Washington DC. It was a good test for bike and rider, and I did not regret the slower pace—gave me more time to enjoy the towns, campsites, and towns along the way, as well as the people I met. The BF is a great conversation starter. I might have gone faster of the 520, but I might not have enjoyed it as much.
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Wolfgang Ketterle
Oct 27, 2021, 9:52:29 PM10/27/21
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For me, the difference is around 1 mph. I have repeatedly done 10
mile exercise rides on a smooth road with considerable effort. A
Pocket Rocket got me to 19 mph, a full frame bike to 20 mph.
I think the biggest difference is the rolling resistance for the tires. For the full frame bike, I got Continental Grand Prix 5000 tires, which have a rolling resistance of 10 Watt (see https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/best-road-bike-tires). Touring tires (e.g. Schwalbe Marathon) have close to 20 Watt per tire. So the faster tires should have saved me 20 Watt. If you ride hard, you generate around 200 Watt, so my savings are around 10 %.
For a 3 % faster pace, the power needed to overcome wind resistance increases by 9 % -- so most of the increase in speed is explained by the better tires. The full frame bike has also slightly better aerodynamics (e.g. no fenders). The effect of weight is negligible for maintaining a constant speed.
WK
I think the biggest difference is the rolling resistance for the tires. For the full frame bike, I got Continental Grand Prix 5000 tires, which have a rolling resistance of 10 Watt (see https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/best-road-bike-tires). Touring tires (e.g. Schwalbe Marathon) have close to 20 Watt per tire. So the faster tires should have saved me 20 Watt. If you ride hard, you generate around 200 Watt, so my savings are around 10 %.
For a 3 % faster pace, the power needed to overcome wind resistance increases by 9 % -- so most of the increase in speed is explained by the better tires. The full frame bike has also slightly better aerodynamics (e.g. no fenders). The effect of weight is negligible for maintaining a constant speed.
WK
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John Thurston
Oct 28, 2021, 11:34:05 AM10/28/21
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In my experience, the rough-stuff penalty is real. When a 622mm and a 406mm wheel approach the same bump, the face of the 406mm will approach at a more vertical angle than the 622mm. The reaction force on the 406mm will be more “backward” and less “upward” than on the 622mmm wheel. i.e. The same bump will slow a 20” wheel more than a 700c wheel.
The above is true if the two wheels are shod with similar tires at similar pressures. In my experience, the reaction penalty can be mitigated by equipping the 406mm wheels with fatter, more flexible, tires and running them at lower pressures. In this scenario, some of the backward force of hitting the bump is translated to sidewall flex instead of being transferred backward to the frame and rider. The resulting “ride” is smoother and the travel over the ground is faster.
In my experience, when wearing 44x406mm Schwalbe Shredds (at 38psi), my Llama is no slower* on the road than my “big wheel” bike wearing 32x622mm tires at 80psi. On mixed surfaces**, my Llama is no slower than my “big wheel” bike wearing 38x584mm tires at 50psi. My Llama _is_ slower on a rock/root-covered trail than my “Mtn bike”; there’s only so much puffy tires can do to mitigate the problem of the steeper angle of approach of the smaller wheels. On the trail described above, the Llama is more “stop and go” than “rolling”.
Which brings us back to wheel size and Bike Friday models…because those determine what tires are available and possible to use.
If you have a New World Tourist or Llama (on 406mm wheels) and all you have ever riden is Schwalbe Marathons at +90psi, you really should try a pair of Tioga Powerblocks at 40psi. Get the “S-Spec” 1.75” tire (~300g). They are not that expensive and a massive improvement in comfort and speed over any of the versions of the Marathon I have ever tried. If you hate them, then sell them on to someone else on Yak so they can try them. I haven’t yet ridden the Tioga FastR tires, so can’t comment on them.
If you have a Pocket Rocket (on 451mm wheels), you can also try the same “S-Spec” Powerblock at 1 1/8” width (200g). You’ll need to run a little more pressure, as they are narrower. I have never owned a 451-equipped Friday, so can not speak from personal experience. But given what I know about Marathons and Powerblocks, I expect the Powerblock to be no slower and more comfortable. The Powerblock “OS20” model is for a 451mm wheel and available at 1.6” width, but is built on the 60tpi casing rather than the 120tpi casing of the S-Spec version. It has received good reviews, but I have no personal experience with that tire casing.
I don’t know what size wheels the Crusoe has, but I know that when you get down to 349mm wheel sizes the tire options get to be limited. When last I looked, the only “good” option at 349mm was the Kojak, and in my experience*** it is a very poor option when compared to what I can get for the 406mm wheels.
My opinionated summary based on experience with the tires:
406 or 451 wheels, try the Powerblocks at 35 to 50psi
349 wheels, suffer along on the Kojaks at 80 or 90psi.
* As evaluated by a time over a course. The 406mm wheels do have less rotational inertia, so gain and loose speed easier on rolling hills.
** good and poor pavement, chip seal, and packed gravel
*** My experience is not with 349mm, but with 369mm. I expect the tire formulation and construction to be the same, despite the difference in diameter.
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
The above is true if the two wheels are shod with similar tires at similar pressures. In my experience, the reaction penalty can be mitigated by equipping the 406mm wheels with fatter, more flexible, tires and running them at lower pressures. In this scenario, some of the backward force of hitting the bump is translated to sidewall flex instead of being transferred backward to the frame and rider. The resulting “ride” is smoother and the travel over the ground is faster.
In my experience, when wearing 44x406mm Schwalbe Shredds (at 38psi), my Llama is no slower* on the road than my “big wheel” bike wearing 32x622mm tires at 80psi. On mixed surfaces**, my Llama is no slower than my “big wheel” bike wearing 38x584mm tires at 50psi. My Llama _is_ slower on a rock/root-covered trail than my “Mtn bike”; there’s only so much puffy tires can do to mitigate the problem of the steeper angle of approach of the smaller wheels. On the trail described above, the Llama is more “stop and go” than “rolling”.
Which brings us back to wheel size and Bike Friday models…because those determine what tires are available and possible to use.
If you have a New World Tourist or Llama (on 406mm wheels) and all you have ever riden is Schwalbe Marathons at +90psi, you really should try a pair of Tioga Powerblocks at 40psi. Get the “S-Spec” 1.75” tire (~300g). They are not that expensive and a massive improvement in comfort and speed over any of the versions of the Marathon I have ever tried. If you hate them, then sell them on to someone else on Yak so they can try them. I haven’t yet ridden the Tioga FastR tires, so can’t comment on them.
If you have a Pocket Rocket (on 451mm wheels), you can also try the same “S-Spec” Powerblock at 1 1/8” width (200g). You’ll need to run a little more pressure, as they are narrower. I have never owned a 451-equipped Friday, so can not speak from personal experience. But given what I know about Marathons and Powerblocks, I expect the Powerblock to be no slower and more comfortable. The Powerblock “OS20” model is for a 451mm wheel and available at 1.6” width, but is built on the 60tpi casing rather than the 120tpi casing of the S-Spec version. It has received good reviews, but I have no personal experience with that tire casing.
I don’t know what size wheels the Crusoe has, but I know that when you get down to 349mm wheel sizes the tire options get to be limited. When last I looked, the only “good” option at 349mm was the Kojak, and in my experience*** it is a very poor option when compared to what I can get for the 406mm wheels.
My opinionated summary based on experience with the tires:
406 or 451 wheels, try the Powerblocks at 35 to 50psi
349 wheels, suffer along on the Kojaks at 80 or 90psi.
* As evaluated by a time over a course. The 406mm wheels do have less rotational inertia, so gain and loose speed easier on rolling hills.
** good and poor pavement, chip seal, and packed gravel
*** My experience is not with 349mm, but with 369mm. I expect the tire formulation and construction to be the same, despite the difference in diameter.
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Eric Daume
Oct 28, 2021, 11:48:43 AM10/28/21
to John Thurston, Bike Friday Yak!
The Crusoe is a 406 bike. I think it’s basically the road frame, but with V brakes.
It has clearance in the rear for a 1.9” tire, but the fork is needlessly tight.
+1 on the recommendation for Tioga Powerblocks. Those transformed my old Dahon when I replaced the cheap Kendas.
Eric
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David Thomson
Oct 28, 2021, 1:26:10 PM10/28/21
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More thoughts on tires ...
After reading John's reviews of the Tioga Powerblock tires I picked up a pair of Tioga FASTR-X BLK LBLs for my NWT about a year ago. I have been very impressed with the ride quality (sidewalls seem to be very compliant). I am using the 1.6 width as the 1.75 won't quite fit under my rear fender, inflated at 45PSI. Prior to to the Tioga's I was using the Schwalbe Marathon Supremes which also had a pretty compliant sidewall, but they were discontinued in the 406 size when Schwalbe updated the design. If anything the Tioga's feel a bit faster than the Schwalbe's, but I can't compare with "normal" size bikes as the NWT is currently my only bike.
The BLK LBL version has a "cut protection layer" that the S-Spec does not. I'm guessing that probably means the S-Spec version is even more compliant and a bit faster, but I ride a lot in semi-remote areas so I went for the additional protection. The Tioga's have also not had any flats in the 2K or so miles I have put on them.
The Fastr X tires are more expensive than the Powerblocks but I like the totally smooth center section on the Fastr X. It looks like the BLK LBL version only comes in 406 sizes, but the S-Spec also comes in 451 sizes.
These are currently very hard to find due to supply chain issues; I just managed to get a spare from Dan's Comp online store.
Dave Thomson
After reading John's reviews of the Tioga Powerblock tires I picked up a pair of Tioga FASTR-X BLK LBLs for my NWT about a year ago. I have been very impressed with the ride quality (sidewalls seem to be very compliant). I am using the 1.6 width as the 1.75 won't quite fit under my rear fender, inflated at 45PSI. Prior to to the Tioga's I was using the Schwalbe Marathon Supremes which also had a pretty compliant sidewall, but they were discontinued in the 406 size when Schwalbe updated the design. If anything the Tioga's feel a bit faster than the Schwalbe's, but I can't compare with "normal" size bikes as the NWT is currently my only bike.
The BLK LBL version has a "cut protection layer" that the S-Spec does not. I'm guessing that probably means the S-Spec version is even more compliant and a bit faster, but I ride a lot in semi-remote areas so I went for the additional protection. The Tioga's have also not had any flats in the 2K or so miles I have put on them.
The Fastr X tires are more expensive than the Powerblocks but I like the totally smooth center section on the Fastr X. It looks like the BLK LBL version only comes in 406 sizes, but the S-Spec also comes in 451 sizes.
These are currently very hard to find due to supply chain issues; I just managed to get a spare from Dan's Comp online store.
Dave Thomson
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> another great conversation from the Bike Friday Yak!
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Squire Black
Nov 5, 2021, 5:22:22 PM11/5/21
to Bike Friday Yak!, David Thomson
On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 10:26:10 AM UTC-7 David Thomson wrote:
More thoughts on tires ...
The Fastr X tires are more expensive than the Powerblocks but I like the totally smooth center section on the Fastr X. It looks like the BLK LBL version only comes in 406 sizes, but the S-Spec also comes in 451 sizes.
These are currently very hard to find due to supply chain issues; I just managed to get a spare from Dan's Comp online store.
Dan's Comp just shipped me one of the folding Faster-X tires in 451 size. Their web site said that they were "Out Of Stock Online; Expected Thu, Nov 18, 2021" , so I was prepared to wait — but it turned out that the web site was wrong ;-)
As an indication of how hard these are to find: I ordered a pair of these tires in May for a June trip, and received only one; I've been hunting for the second one ever since. Eventually, in late August, I bought a non-folding version of the same tire so that both wheels would at least look the same.
If anyone wants a copy of the non-folding version (with less than 100 miles on it) to try, send me an email.
Andrew Black
Portland, Oregon
Squire Black
Nov 6, 2021, 3:20:10 PM11/6/21
to Bike Friday Yak!, Squire Black, David Thomson
On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:22:22 PM UTC-7 Squire Black wrote:
Dan's Comp just shipped me one of the folding Faster-X tires in 451 size.
I should have said: a 1⅜" tire.
Andrew Black
Portland, Oregon
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