How to make shifting easier on a BG Crusoe

[Rob MacLeod]

Hi BF Friends,

I have another request for guidance for our e-bike upgraded version of my wife’s BF Crusoe.  My wife has some problems with arthritic thumbs and cannot shift the front derailleur on the bike yesterday(see photos below for details of the shifter and front derailleur).

I can still shift it, but it is harder than I would like so I am looking for suggestions.  The obvious options are

1) Replace gear cables with something with less resistance than what is there now.
2) Explore whether another derailleur might be easier to move. No idea which options would work given the mounting setup on the bike.
3) Go really crazy and see about a Di2 upgrade. 

I’d love your feedback and suggestions. 

Cheers,
Rob

[John Thurston]

It isn't clear if this is a double, or a triple.

Some options which come to mind are:

Trade out the 'Rapid' shifter for one which twists. Gripshift is the old-school product, but I dont' think it exists any more. Look at the Microshift products https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=109028&category=163

The above only works if one still has good strength and range of motion in the wrist. The only option I can think of which evades this, and retains the multi-chainring, is electronic shifting.

The other option is to ditch the front derailleur, and go 1x11 (or 1x12). Put a 3t 'Bailout' cassette on a rear wheel using an XD or XDR freehub. One then shifts across that using a SRAM derailleur and shifter. This ain't cheap, and is more intrusive than going electronic shifting with what you have now.

-- 
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

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[Bob Boufford]

Hi Rob,

I have similar issues with the microShift thumb shifters that came with my e-NWT. I changed to SRAM MRX Comp twist shifters, the same as I’ve had on my 2009 Pocket Companion 24 and also had installed on my Ever-E-Day (right only).

The SRAM twist shifters have worked very well for me. Other twist shifters might also meet your wife’s needs. I think Shimano has similar ones.

Cheers,

Bob

On Jul 10, 2024, at 8:57 AM, Rob MacLeod <mac...@sci.utah.edu> wrote:



<IMG_0208.jpeg>

<IMG_0209.jpeg>

[Dave Feldman]

As a user of it and as a long time bike mechanic I'd say go crazy and get Di2 or the SRAM equivalent.  Folding bikes and derailleur cables ain't an ideal pairing.
David Feldman
Vancouver WA

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[John Thurston]

I agree about the cable-thing, but last time I looked it was going to cost me $1,000 to put an electronic rear derailleur on my bike.

1. Have the prices come down since I looked?
2. Are there any short/medium cage options which will clear the road with small wheels?

On 7/10/2024 11:00 AM, Dave Feldman wrote:

As a user of it and as a long time bike mechanic I'd say go crazy and get Di2 or the SRAM equivalent.  Folding bikes and derailleur cables ain't an ideal pairing.

-- 
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska

[Dave Feldman]

I would look at the L Twoo groups, made in China by an ex contractor for SRAM.  The biggest difficulty will be finding controls for cable brakes, not hydraulics!

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[Kristi DuBois]

I have the same problem with shifting the Microshift front derailleur on my e-NWT. I ordered mine with a double in front, as I wanted (needed) the extra low gears it provides for climbing hills, since my knees are also full of arthritis. I can shift it by pushing the shifter with the palm of my hand, not perfect, but it works. When I ordered an All-Packa I ordered it with twist shifters, as BF said those would be easier. It came with Microshift twist shifters. It is a bit easier, though I discovered that it is impossible to shift if I have sweaty hands. It's OK if I wear gloves. Do you think the SRAM twist shifter would work a little easier on the front? Is it compatible with the Microshift derailleur, or would I have to change out the front to a SRAM as well?

Thanks all for your good advice.

Kristi

[Paul Webb]

The mounting of the front derailleur is pretty standard, so you should have no problem finding suitable ones, although I don't have particular suggestions.  My limited exposure to Microshift was a rear derailleur on a Tikit and I recall that being quite stiff.

 

The cable run to the front derailleur is relatively short, so there's not much to be gained there (unless the cable is obviously sticky)

On drop bars, I'd suggest an old-skool bar-end shifter, but I don't think you could readily mount on to flat bars!

Also, consider whether your wife is using the full range of gears - maybe you can get by with a single ring that is somewhere between the size of the current rings.  It looks like a traditional 5-arm crankset, so aftermarket rings are easy to come by.

Paul

[Bob Boufford]

As an add-on to my previous comment on shifters.

The route of the front shifter cable to the front derailleur can make a difference. 

On my 2009 Pocket Companion with a triple chainring, the cable is routed through a brazed-on noodle above the bottom bracket. Shifting is smooth and easy.

But on my newer e-NWT, the cable is routed under the bottom bracket. Not as smooth and easy with a double chainring and very difficult when I tried to go to the same triple chainring setup as my Pocket Companion.

For the NWT, went back to a double chainring with smaller front rings and a wider rear cluster to get up the island hills without draining battery. 

Bob

(Outside the other Vancouver BC)

On Jul 10, 2024, at 8:57 AM, Rob MacLeod <mac...@sci.utah.edu> wrote:



<IMG_0208.jpeg>

<IMG_0209.jpeg>

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[Robert Wavrin]

I too have an issue with my thumbs and couldn't shift our normal tandem any more. The Di2 shifters (for caliper brakes not disc) are wonderful, but as stated by others can get expensive. Here (I am not affiliated in any way with them) are some relatively inexpensive ( to me) shift/brake levers that use cables for drop bar bike brakes.

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=65395

My first try would be the SRAM MRX twist shifters. They are cheap and models work for most all derailleurs (I think SRAM derailleurs are one of the only brands that have a different pull ratio than Shimano, the MRX come in both pull ratios just make sure you get a style for your derailleur). They are very easy to twist, even for me with bad thumbs.

Hope this helps and I understand your pain.

Bob

--

[robert clark]

Sturmey Hybrid hub wheel  offers 3  internal gears + cassette driver..

successor to Sachs - Sram dual drive...  

the shift at any speed,, even stopped,, is advantageous...

S-A offers a grip shifter for the 3  speed,  fitted on 22.2 bar... [+ thumb and handle bar end levers]

over the bar thumb shifter can be turned like a faucet handle too, whole hand,

...  if you have hand gripping  issues 

as I approach my 77th year I empathize..

Sram Had  2 grip shifter pull ratios 1  exclusive to their RD, 

+ another to use with their competitor's / Shimano... 

who they sued to get into the OEM build market..

[Dan Scott]

I temporarily set up our big wheel tandem with an old set of grip shifters as a way to try out a particular set of bars. Two years later they’re still in use, quite easy to grip even with the whole hand. Plus, unless the numbers are worn off like mine, you get a visual gear indicator. 

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 11, 2024, at 8:36 AM, robert clark <ro3ert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sturmey Hybrid hub wheel  offers 3  internal gears + cassette driver..

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/246c9d67-b930-45c9-a6e9-53b77cd7f6abn%40bikefriday.com.

[Rob MacLeod]

Thanks Bob and others,

Great advice, as usual.  Here are some answers and the current state of play.

1) This is a modified 3 x 9 speed, only two chainrings now but they are very handy to have the gear range my wife likes.  Yes, it is an ebike but the front wheel drive motor is pretty weak and will stop suddenly if overstressed (that is another thread).  I assume a SRAM front shifter will work fine as they call it micro-friction. 

2) The bars are straight with Ergo grips   My wife loves them on both her bikes.   So no dropbar options under consideration. 

3) I am not finding any SRAM MRX (I am in Canada) but I have found a source of SRAM Centera.  Any opinions on those? Most reviews seem positive but warn about brake lever compatibility (we have Avid. not sure of the model) 

I plan to order the shifters from Canada Bicycle Parts or FortNine.  No experience with either but Amazon.ca does not have them. 

Any more great thoughts?

Thanks again for all your input.

Cheers,

Rob

19 Old Lake Echo Rd

Lake Echo, NS, 

Canada B3E 1C6

rsma...@gmail.com

On Jul 10, 2024, at 10:00 PM, Robert Wavrin <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:

I too have an issue with my thumbs and couldn't shift our normal tandem any more. The Di2 shifters (for caliper brakes not disc) are wonderful, but as stated by others can get expensive. Here (I am not affiliated in any way with them) are some relatively inexpensive ( to me) shift/brake levers that use cables for drop bar bike brakes.

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=65395

My first try would be the SRAM MRX twist shifters. They are cheap and models work for most all derailleurs (I think SRAM derailleurs are one of the only brands that have a different pull ratio than Shimano, the MRX come in both pull ratios just make sure you get a style for your derailleur). They are very easy to twist, even for me with bad thumbs.

Hope this helps and I understand your pain.

Bob

On Wed, Jul 10, 2024, 11:57 AM Rob MacLeod <mac...@sci.utah.edu> wrote:

Hi BF Friends,

I have another request for guidance for our e-bike upgraded version of my wife’s BF Crusoe.  My wife has some problems with arthritic thumbs and cannot shift the front derailleur on the bike yesterday(see photos below for details of the shifter and front derailleur).

I can still shift it, but it is harder than I would like so I am looking for suggestions.  The obvious options are

1) Replace gear cables with something with less resistance than what is there now.
2) Explore whether another derailleur might be easier to move. No idea which options would work given the mounting setup on the bike.
3) Go really crazy and see about a Di2 upgrade. 

I’d love your feedback and suggestions. 

Cheers,
Rob

<IMG_0208.jpeg>

<IMG_0209.jpeg>

[Bob Boufford]

Rob,

Try Amazon.com (not Amazon.ca).  I found my previous order from them. Did a quick check and can still see several options with “Ships to Canada”.

Bob

Southern Gulf Islands, BC (not US or MX)

On Jul 11, 2024, at 5:27 PM, Rob MacLeod <mac...@sci.utah.edu> wrote:

 Thanks Bob and others,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/047901DE-48BA-4947-8F9E-F704B5DA49FF%40sci.utah.edu.

[Rick]

I've been watching this thread with great interest. I'd kind of say Rob beat me to it on this as I was thinking of asking the Yak about my shifting issues. I don't have serious thumb arthritis, though I do have some, but more importantly, my Friday requires a lot of force to shift to larger gears (I think the same as Rob) - both in front and rear, though front is worse.

So I too would welcome ideas - stopping at expensive things like electronic shifting, or moving to 3 speed hubs.

So (hopefully) not to hijack the thread, but rather to add to it, I have thought of:

1) Switch to Ultegra 9 speed bar ends. Among other things, I think they have longer levers

2) Get some of that Teflon? cable housing liner

3) ???

For reference, I have 3 bikes with bar-end shifters:

1) Big wheel bike - Deore XT rear, LX front dérailleurs, Microshift Bar-Ends (10 speed) Shifts with very little effort

2) Older Friday, Base model Deore rear, some kind of basic Shimano front, Ultegra Bar-Ends (8 speed). Shifts OK, though with some effort. But in particular, the Front dérailleur is MUCH better.

3) New Friday. All Microshift 9 speed. Requires so much effort to shift that I worry that the cables will eventually fail.

From this it looks like I can probably eliminate cheaper Microshift components, and focus on the Bike Friday design.

One of the earlier responses said that cable routing on a folding bike will never be as good. That makes sense as there is a lot more housing, but my new road bike has internal cables, which I presume have full length cables, and it shifts great.

Would Rob and I benefit from some of the inner liners I mentioned, or "slipperier" cables and housings? Is there something goofy about how Bike Friday cables are routed?

My old Friday is definitely better. Did Green Gear change how the cables are routed?

Rick

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------ Original Message ------

From "Bob Boufford" <bob.bo...@gmail.com>

To "Rob MacLeod" <mac...@sci.utah.edu>

Cc "Robert Wavrin" <robert...@gmail.com>; "Bike Friday Yak!" <y...@bikefriday.com>

Date 7/11/2024 6:40:50 PM

Subject Re: [yak] How to make shifting easier on a BG Crusoe

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/bikefriday.com/d/msgid/yak/9D12B1BC-70C1-4CDE-AD4C-A419DA8F084B%40gmail.com.

[Squire Black]

My wife has had similar issues shifting the front derailleur on her Pocket Rocket (9-speed Tiagra, now Ultegra, with Ultegra Brifters).

A couple of years ago I tried to address this.  Apart from replacing the cables with new Jagwire housing and slick 1.1 mm inner cables — an inexpensive maintenance job that is my first resort when a shifting problem develops over time — I also re-thought the cable routing.  

The original routing was essentially pulling the front derailure leftwards more than downwards, with the result that only a small component of the cable tension was moving the derailleur arm in the direction that it was willing to go.  I abandoned the BF brazed-on cable stop, added a clamp-on stop, and re-routed the cable under the bottom bracket, so that it now pulls down on the derailleur arm.

In the photo below, the yellow circle shows the factory brazed-on cable stop, no longer used. The arrow shows the new clamp on stop.  The segment of the cable that is routed in a curve between the main fram tube and the bottom bracket is encased in super-slick metalic housing with a Teflon liner, as I though that this might be even better than the Jagwire LEX-SL.  (I don't know if this really made a difference; I had the metal housing, so I used it.)

 

This photo shows the difference in the pull angle:

You can see the original stop just above the label; utilizing that stop, the cable pull is as much sideways as down.

The result: the shifting is much improved, but still not great.  My wife can at least use the front derailleur now.  My suggestion for further improvement was to go to electronic shifting, but as John says, that's a > $1000 upgrade.  And then one can't ride one's bike because the battery is flat! 😖

[Rob MacLeod]

Thanks Squire,

I have also been thinking about cable routing, also, because we rarely, i.e., never, fold this bike anymore.  Traveling with an e-bike is just too complicated and we have a bike rack so local transport is also easier that way.  I have ordered a Jagwire cable kit and the grip shifters (I found a Canadian source) and will tackle the problem with that combo as soon as things arrive (next week, I hope). 

Your move to swap out the front derailleur and cable stops is another interesting one that I will have a look at next. 

It should not take this much force to change gears on a bike!  @BikeFriday, please take note!

Cheers,

Rob

On Jul 13, 2024, at 12:50 AM, Squire Black <apb...@ownmail.net> wrote:

My wife has had similar issues shifting the front derailleur on her Pocket Rocket (9-speed Tiagra, now Ultegra, with Ultegra Brifters).

A couple of years ago I tried to address this.  Apart from replacing the cables with new Jagwire housing and slick 1.1 mm inner cables — an inexpensive maintenance job that is my first resort when a shifting problem develops over time — I also re-thought the cable routing.  

The original routing was essentially pulling the front derailure leftwards more than downwards, with the result that only a small component of the cable tension was moving the derailleur arm in the direction that it was willing to go.  I abandoned the BF brazed-on cable stop, added a clamp-on stop, and re-routed the cable under the bottom bracket, so that it now pulls down on the derailleur arm.

In the photo below, the yellow circle shows the factory brazed-on cable stop, no longer used. The arrow shows the new clamp on stop.  The segment of the cable that is routed in a curve between the main fram tube and the bottom bracket is encased in super-slick metalic housing with a Teflon liner, as I though that this might be even better than the Jagwire LEX-SL.  (I don't know if this really made a difference; I had the metal housing, so I used it.)

 

This photo shows the difference in the pull angle:

You can see the original stop just above the label; utilizing that stop, the cable pull is as much sideways as down.

The result: the shifting is much improved, but still not great.  My wife can at least use the front derailleur now.  My suggestion for further improvement was to go to electronic shifting, but as John says, that's a > $1000 upgrade.  And then one can't ride one's bike because the battery is flat! 😖

[robert clark]

No dog in this contest... 

 My Pocket Llama has a Rohloff hub, not derailleurs..

I have had many big wheel bikes with derailleur drivetrains..  in the past 50 years..

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[Andrew P. Black]

My only experience with a grip shifter was with a Rholoff.  I hated it so much I sold the bike.  It was much harder to twist that grip than operate any lever.  My hand would slip on the grip before the grip would twist.  

I would try bar-cons if, after changing the cable routing, you still need more leverage.  With the routing, you are looking to achieve two things: large-radius turns to limit friction, and a pull direction that is closely aligned with the direction in which the front derailleur arm moves.  

Andrew

On Jul 13, 2024, at 04:38, Rob MacLeod <mac...@sci.utah.edu> wrote:

 Thanks Squire,

I have also been thinking about cable routing, also, because we rarely, i.e., never, fold this bike anymore.  Traveling with an e-bike is just too complicated and we have a bike rack so local transport is also easier that way.  I have ordered a Jagwire cable kit and the grip shifters (I found a Canadian source) and will tackle the problem with that combo as soon as things arrive (next week, I hope). 

Your move to swap out the front derailleur and cable stops is another interesting one that I will have a look at next. 

It should not take this much force to change gears on a bike!  @BikeFriday, please take note!

Cheers,

Rob

On Jul 13, 2024, at 12:50 AM, Squire Black <apb...@ownmail.net> wrote:

My wife has had similar issues shifting the front derailleur on her Pocket Rocket (9-speed Tiagra, now Ultegra, with Ultegra Brifters).

A couple of years ago I tried to address this.  Apart from replacing the cables with new Jagwire housing and slick 1.1 mm inner cables — an inexpensive maintenance job that is my first resort when a shifting problem develops over time — I also re-thought the cable routing.  

The original routing was essentially pulling the front derailure leftwards more than downwards, with the result that only a small component of the cable tension was moving the derailleur arm in the direction that it was willing to go.  I abandoned the BF brazed-on cable stop, added a clamp-on stop, and re-routed the cable under the bottom bracket, so that it now pulls down on the derailleur arm.

In the photo below, the yellow circle shows the factory brazed-on cable stop, no longer used. The arrow shows the new clamp on stop.  The segment of the cable that is routed in a curve between the main fram tube and the bottom bracket is encased in super-slick metalic housing with a Teflon liner, as I though that this might be even better than the Jagwire LEX-SL.  (I don't know if this really made a difference; I had the metal housing, so I used it.)

 

<IMG_3717.jpeg>

This photo shows the difference in the pull angle:

<IMG_3719.jpeg>

You can see the original stop just above the label; utilizing that stop, the cable pull is as much sideways as down.

The result: the shifting is much improved, but still not great.  My wife can at least use the front derailleur now.  My suggestion for further improvement was to go to electronic shifting, but as John says, that's a > $1000 upgrade.  And then one can't ride one's bike because the battery is flat! 😖

<IMG_3717.jpeg>

<IMG_3719.jpeg>

[Rick Mason]

@squire - I liked your idea on cable routing, so I looked at my old and new NWTs. The old one has routing that matches your pictures, but the new one is actually routed under the bottom bracket via a plastic cable guide. In theory this *should* make the new one shift better. Especially in front. In reality it is worse. 

Not sure what this all means. Maybe the Shimano Ultegra bar end shifters are better than the Microshift ones?  But that doesn't make sense since my big wheel bike has (10 speed) Microshift bar ends, and they are butter smooth... Could it be the Microshift derailleurs as compared to Shimano?  Again, who knows?

Rick

[Michael Witter]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Archer shifter:

https://www.roadbikerider.com/archer-components-d1x-trail-shifting-review/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_3JCCkiw94

I haven't used one, but looks interesting. If Jim Langley likes them, they must be good.

Mike

[Rick]

Looks ingenious!  I read the article of roadbiker that you referenced, and then the link to archer components....

Ugh.  They are out of business.  Looks like they couldn't compete with the big S's and C :-(

------ Original Message ------

From "Michael Witter" <witte...@gmail.com>

To "Bike Friday Yak!" <y...@bikefriday.com>

Cc "rsma...@gmail.com" <mac...@sci.utah.edu>

Date 7/15/2024 3:57:36 AM

Subject [yak] Re: How to make shifting easier on a BG Crusoe

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Two wrongs don't make a Right...

But three rights DO make a Left

Website: www.cactusrider.com

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[Geof Gee]

Although they're called thumb shifters, you can grip them like you do a bar end and use your forearm muscles.  

https://www.amazon.com/MicroShift-Double-Triple-speed-Shifters/dp/B00ZSD8IOO?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A1TYOE2YKIHA0H

Would be compatible with most flat bars.

-Geof 

Arlington, VA

--

"Sometimes I forget things.  Who I am.  Where I am.  Unimportant things. But I'm not insane. "