Lincoln Memorial to be torn down

[John Pickels]

Such a racist ... we must destroy the whole thing!

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -- Abraham Lincoln 

[John Pickels]

Making fun of racism is an interesting take.  I am NOT in favor of taking down any monuments.  Andrew Jackson, for example.  I see a lot of hypocrisy in taking down this president's statues.  But I understand that sometimes, you must have a side a stick to it.  [I hope you do not think I think that the Lincoln Memorial should be removed.]

On 7/24/2023 3:19 PM, E. Stephen Mack wrote:

John, I'm not sure why you're making light of the obvious racism in our country's history, including that evidenced in that statement by President Lincoln, nor am I sure why you're joking about tearing down the Lincoln Memorial as if that was something that any group actually proposes. (There was a rumor about that in 2020, but it was not based in any fact. https://apnews.com/article/9328592189)

If someone actually proposed destroying the Lincoln Memorial, I would oppose that, and I would predict that no one in this mailing list would be in favor.

If someone proposed adding some context in the form of plaques discussing historical racism and what Lincoln's motivations were, I would support that, and I would predict that likely everyone in this mailing list would be in favor. (But, given some of the revisionist history taking place in Florida regarding the benefits of "skills" that slaves were forced to learn, maybe I shouldn't be so sure. https://www.npr.org/2023/07/22/1189580665/vp-harris-criticized-floridas-new-history-curriculum-for-its-claims-about-slaver)

Maybe you're getting at this: Why do some (including me) want to remove or relocate Confederate monuments? Isn't it hypocritical to remove those, but keep the Lincoln Memorial? I don't see any hypocrisy there. In my opinion, there is nothing great and nothing to be venerated about the Confederacy. It was founded purely to support slavery. (See the actual words in the declaration of causes: https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states) Those types of statues should be taken down and relocated.

Our history is complex. No person, let alone any president, let alone President Lincoln, is wholly worthy of veneration. Everyone is flawed. Everyone is complex. Everyone makes mistakes. President Lincoln included. Does that mean that what he accomplished, in balance, was not great? No. We all agree he deserves a monument, and it would be best to educate all who visit it on his life and times and complexities and mistakes as well as revering him in his monument as the great president that he was.

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 9:54 AM John Pickels <johnp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Such a racist ... we must destroy the whole thing!

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -- Abraham Lincoln 

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[E. Stephen Mack]

John, I'm not sure why you're making light of the obvious racism in our country's history, including that evidenced in that statement by President Lincoln, nor am I sure why you're joking about tearing down the Lincoln Memorial as if that was something that any group actually proposes. (There was a rumor about that in 2020, but it was not based in any fact. https://apnews.com/article/9328592189)

If someone actually proposed destroying the Lincoln Memorial, I would oppose that, and I would predict that no one in this mailing list would be in favor.

If someone proposed adding some context in the form of plaques discussing historical racism and what Lincoln's motivations were, I would support that, and I would predict that likely everyone in this mailing list would be in favor. (But, given some of the revisionist history taking place in Florida regarding the benefits of "skills" that slaves were forced to learn, maybe I shouldn't be so sure. https://www.npr.org/2023/07/22/1189580665/vp-harris-criticized-floridas-new-history-curriculum-for-its-claims-about-slaver)

Maybe you're getting at this: Why do some (including me) want to remove or relocate Confederate monuments? Isn't it hypocritical to remove those, but keep the Lincoln Memorial? I don't see any hypocrisy there. In my opinion, there is nothing great and nothing to be venerated about the Confederacy. It was founded purely to support slavery. (See the actual words in the declaration of causes: https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states) Those types of statues should be taken down and relocated.

Our history is complex. No person, let alone any president, let alone President Lincoln, is wholly worthy of veneration. Everyone is flawed. Everyone is complex. Everyone makes mistakes. President Lincoln included. Does that mean that what he accomplished, in balance, was not great? No. We all agree he deserves a monument, and it would be best to educate all who visit it on his life and times and complexities and mistakes as well as revering him in his monument as the great president that he was.

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 9:54 AM John Pickels <johnp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Such a racist ... we must destroy the whole thing!

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -- Abraham Lincoln 

[E. Stephen Mack]

John, apologies if I completely misread your mail from earlier. When you started with the words "such a racist" what did you intend? Do you think Lincoln's statement is or isn't racist? When you ended with "we must destroy the whole thing!" (with the exclamation point even), wasn't that intended humorously? So, please let me understand what I got wrong. What was your intent? I did in fact read your mail as making light of the horrific racism in Lincoln's letter, and I stated as such. But it seems I have misunderstood. My apologies. I would like to know what you intended.

I explicitly said in my reply that I oppose destroying the Lincoln Memorial. See my second paragraph. As far as I can tell there have been precisely zero proposals to ever remove this memorial.

Andrew Jackson is a more interesting case. I know that some protesters tried to remove a bronze statue of Jackson near the White House in 2020. Those protesters failed, and haven't tried again. I don't support their action with the Jackson statue . But I understand why some would want to remove it.

[John Pickels]

Thanks for you thoughts, Stephen. I was being "something" with my post. I think that destroying history is a bad thing. I knew that Lincoln was not "woke" to use modern terminology. But he was not alone in his Eugenics beliefs. Many more famous Americans were believers. I believe there are differences between many groups in our history of evolution. I disagree with killing some of them. Working together for what is best for all seems like a good thing to me. The alternatives of the past did not work well in my opinion. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 26, 2023, at 4:41 PM, E. Stephen Mack <este...@zeigen.com> wrote:



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