"Free Arduino" - the promised foundation that could help with these efforts and development

[Phillip]

hey folks,

MAKE magazine (dale, the ceo and publisher) posted about the status, or lack of, for the promised arduino foundation.

"Free Arduino"

http://makezine.com/2017/06/09/free-arduino/

it looks there are many many good projects that massimo and christian are working on and they've outlined. i think it is fair to say many people in the arduino community have been frustrated by the slow pace of arduino's software development, there were a lot of outside issues that didn't help.

massimo said "we're kicking off a new phase in the developement of the open source Arduino IDE where we want to tackle some of the features we need to take the platform to the next stage" and outlined at least 6 projects.

project chainsaw

arduinoapi

arduino pre-processor

arduino library format

scheduler

debugging

arduino pre-processor

from my point of view these are good directions and very much needed, however, these projects need time and resources and independence from the "Arduino AG" business that is currently majority-owned by federico musto CEO, arduino. we were all promised a foundation, that promise, amongst other promises, has not happened.

one of the benefits of the promised foundation would allow developers to know their work, their time, and resources devoted to the open-source project arduino, will be managed well by the leaders at arduino. that's the trust when developers join a community, that there is leadership that will take care of our efforts responsibly. and if not, there are independent ways to make sure a "bad actor" cannot steer our collective work off a cliff.

limor, myself, adafruit, our work, and a lot of what we do is more than just code, it's more than just hardware, however a lot of what we do is contributing to this thing called "arduino" for almost 10 years.

if the developers here could encourage a foundation, that would help at least us (limor, myself, adafruit) dedicate the time and resources to these efforts. 

how can any of us, if we even wanted to now, donate resources to "arduino" to make the efforts happen? we cannot even get arduino.org to answer emails.

i do not think the arduino.cc team members can push too hard on this for a variety of business and legal reasons (this is just a guess and my personal opinion) however, the developers and contributors *here* can, and if we make our voices heard the owner of arduino, now, will need to listen.

there are 3 people to make your voice heard, anyone can email federico, fabio and daniela to express their concerns: federico at arduino.org, f.violante at arduino.cc, daniela at arduino.org

the arduino AG company information is here (and who owns it):

http://www.netzwoche.ch/news/2017-01-30/firmengruendungen-woche-4

i think this is important and arduino (developers) are at an inflection point, it either allows arduino to succeed, or developers will just work on something else.

thank you,

pt

[Massimo Banzi]

Hi

BTW I believe this is not the right forum for this. This is a list for discussing technical matters.

Let me state the obvious: Arduino is already free because its software is GPL and the hardware is CC so nobody is going to take it away from anybody.

Many companies have built million dollar businesses based on this simple predicate.

Any company which feels the development is slow is very welcome to pay  a developer to help improve the core Arduino code.

Let’s move back to talk about nerdy stuff.

thanks

m

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[bob]

"hey phil"

Pretty scummy behaviour IMO, coming to another company's forum and trying to stir up sh**. Following your hit piece on Arduino, there is a long advertorial for Adafruit, it's clear who you are in bed with.

I already have a dim view of MAKE, long time supporter of Open Source pariah Bre Pettis. Previously when asked about their links to Arduino.org Adafruit said their business was none of my concern, accused me of stirring up "internet outrage" and perma banned me from their website. So now who is trying to stir up outrage? A lot of hypocrisy from Adafruit and friends here.

I suggest MAKE, Adafruit, phil, dale and limor bog off and look after their business, and stop trying to stir up trouble for others.

[phillip torrone]

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 10:58 AM, 'bob' via Developers <devel...@arduino.cc> wrote:
> "hey phil" Pretty scummy behaviour IMO, coming to another company's forum and trying to stir up sh**. Following your hit piece on Arduino, there is a long advertorial for Adafruit, it's clear who you are in bed with.
> I already have a dim view of MAKE, long time supporter of Open Source pariah Bre Pettis. Previously when asked about their links to Arduino.org Adafruit said their business was none of my concern, accused me of stirring up "internet outrage" and perma banned me from their website. So now who is trying to stir up outrage? A lot of hypocrisy from Adafruit and friends here.
> I suggest MAKE, Adafruit, phil, dale and limor bog off and look after their business, and stop trying to stir up trouble for others.

hi bob,

here are some facts.

1) i did not write the article on MAKE, dale, the publisher of MAKE did. dale and i have disagreed, a lot, about MAKE's handling of coverage of arduino. you're welcome to email me directly and i will tell you anything and answer any questions.

2) the MAKE article about adafruit was planned before april, this is the first time MAKE (print) has written about adafruit in over 10+ years (specifically, limor, the company, etc). dale and i have disagreed about MAKE's coverage, and lack of, of arduino and adafruit, specifically limor and adafruit. i also disagreed with the 2 former ceo's of MAKE on their coverage (and lack of) of women makers and underrepresented makers, feel free to email me directly about that. you're welcome to email me directly and i will tell you anything and answer any questions.

3) i disagreed with some of MAKE's coverage of makerbot and bre. and you're welcome to email bre, and ask him if he enjoyed my writing about makerbot on adafruit, which included the class-action lawsuit and the resignations of many of the executives. at this time, bre does not talk to me, so you'll need to ask him.

4) regarding your claim that we (adafruit banned you). you're welcome to email me directly, however all i see is on email where you asked for a link to be updated (we did) and thanked you, email is below.

From: Adafruit Industries <sup...@adafruit.com>
Date: Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [[Web Site Error]] Web Site Error
To: bob cousins <bobcou...@googlemail.com>
thanks bob, updating shortly.
thanks!
adafruit support

On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 6:32 AM, bob cousins <bobcou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
contactname : bob cousins
email address : bobcou...@googlemail.com
contact us 2 section : bugreport
os : win
browser : firefox 31.0
useragent string : Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0)
Gecko/20100101 Firefox/31.0
message text : Hi there,

On page http://www.adafruit.com/category/17 you have a link to
www.arduino.org. That site is nothing to do with Arduino but is a "spam"
site. The official link for Arduino is arduino.cc I believe.

[bob]

hey phil

Seems my first message wasn't clear. Being a member of "the Arduino community" does not entitle anyone to tell Arduino how to run their business. Dale criticizes Musto for "taking over Arduino", then suggests doing exactly the same. Arduino is a trademark, Dale is   suggesting to steal it. You came here to promote the MAKE article and stir up trouble.

Bottom line : I don't give a fuck what you guys think about Arduino. I am not interested in your lame excuses or PR bullshit.

PS. Please DO NOT publish private details. I'm beginning to think you guys are really shitty operators.

PPS Let's all go to MAKE and Adafruit web forums and complain about their business practices. I am really sure they will love that, but they will ban you.

PPPS Please go away.

[Clóvis Fritzen]

Please guys, we all know where this is going. Whenever a third-party company embraces a cause to itself that cause is deemed to fail. E.g hackaday, hackster, arduino (all became advertisemenr selling places). There is no hope while company money is on play

On Jun 13, 2017 12:26 PM, "'bob' via Developers" <devel...@arduino.cc> wrote:

hey phil

Seems my first message wasn't clear. Being a member of "the Arduino community" does not entitle anyone to tell Arduino how to run their business. Dale criticizes Musto for "taking over Arduino", then suggests doing exactly the same. Arduino is a trademark, Dale is   suggesting to steal it. You came here to promote the MAKE article and stir up trouble.

Bottom line : I don't give a fuck what you guys think about Arduino. I am not interested in your lame excuses or PR bullshit.

PS. Please DO NOT publish private details. I'm beginning to think you guys are really shitty operators.

PPS Let's all go to MAKE and Adafruit web forums and complain about their business practices. I am really sure they will love that, but they will ban you.

PPPS Please go away.

On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 4:09:30 PM UTC+1, phillip torrone wrote:

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 10:58 AM, 'bob' via Developers <devel...@arduino.cc> wrote:
> "hey phil" Pretty scummy behaviour IMO, coming to another company's forum and trying to stir up sh**. Following your hit piece on Arduino, there is a long advertorial for Adafruit, it's clear who you are in bed with.
> I already have a dim view of MAKE, long time supporter of Open Source pariah Bre Pettis. Previously when asked about their links to Arduino.org Adafruit said their business was none of my concern, accused me of stirring up "internet outrage" and perma banned me from their website. So now who is trying to stir up outrage? A lot of hypocrisy from Adafruit and friends here.
> I suggest MAKE, Adafruit, phil, dale and limor bog off and look after their business, and stop trying to stir up trouble for others.


hi bob,

here are some facts.

1) i did not write the article on MAKE, dale, the publisher of MAKE did. dale and i have disagreed, a lot, about MAKE's handling of coverage of arduino. you're welcome to email me directly and i will tell you anything and answer any questions.

2) the MAKE article about adafruit was planned before april, this is the first time MAKE (print) has written about adafruit in over 10+ years (specifically, limor, the company, etc). dale and i have disagreed about MAKE's coverage, and lack of, of arduino and adafruit, specifically limor and adafruit. i also disagreed with the 2 former ceo's of MAKE on their coverage (and lack of) of women makers and underrepresented makers, feel free to email me directly about that. you're welcome to email me directly and i will tell you anything and answer any questions.

3) i disagreed with some of MAKE's coverage of makerbot and bre. and you're welcome to email bre, and ask him if he enjoyed my writing about makerbot on adafruit, which included the class-action lawsuit and the resignations of many of the executives. at this time, bre does not talk to me, so you'll need to ask him.

4) regarding your claim that we (adafruit banned you). you're welcome to email me directly, however all i see is on email where you asked for a link to be updated (we did) and thanked you, email is below.

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[phillip torrone]

hi bob,

i'd ask the list moderators to ask bob not to curse or have personal attacks.

again, more facts.

> Being a member of "the Arduino community" does not entitle anyone to tell Arduino how to run their business.

1) yes it does, look at the code and libraries from adafruit, specifically limor. you're welcome to request all our code is removed from all things arduino if you'd like.

limor and i very much want to devote a lot of resources, as we have, over the last 10 years to arduino. we'd like an independent foundation, the one promised, to make sure our work is in good hands in some way. right now, we cannot even get a reply from the leadership at arduino.org

> Arduino is a trademark

2) arduino is more than a trademark, it's a community, if arduino doesn't want to hear from their community, do not do open-source hardware and software. they're stuck with us, and we are stuck with them.

> PS. Please DO NOT publish private details. I'm beginning to think you guys are really shitty operators.

do not accuse myself or adafruit (or anyone) of doing something that is not true, if you do, and there is evidence of the contrary, you can expect a response.

thanks,
pt

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 11:26 AM, 'bob' via Developers <devel...@arduino.cc> wrote:
>
> hey phil
>
> Seems my first message wasn't clear. Being a member of "the Arduino community" does not entitle anyone to tell Arduino how to run their business. Dale criticizes Musto for "taking over Arduino", then suggests doing exactly the same. Arduino is a trademark, Dale is suggesting to steal it. You came here to promote the MAKE article and stir up trouble.
>
> Bottom line : I don't give a fuck what you guys think about Arduino. I am not interested in your lame excuses or PR bullshit.
>
> PS. Please DO NOT publish private details. I'm beginning to think you guys are really shitty operators.
>
> PPS Let's all go to MAKE and Adafruit web forums and complain about their business practices. I am really sure they will love that, but they will ban you.
>
> PPPS Please go away.
>
> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 4:09:30 PM UTC+1, phillip torrone wrote:
> > On Jun 13, 2017, at 10:58 AM, 'bob' via Developers <devel...@arduino.cc> wrote:
> > "hey phil" Pretty scummy behaviour IMO, coming to another company's forum and trying to stir up sh**. Following your hit piece on Arduino, there is a long advertorial for Adafruit, it's clear who you are in bed with.
> > I already have a dim view of MAKE, long time supporter of Open Source pariah Bre Pettis. Previously when asked about their links to Arduino.org Adafruit said their business was none of my concern, accused me of stirring up "internet outrage" and perma banned me from their website. So now who is trying to stir up outrage? A lot of hypocrisy from Adafruit and friends here.
> > I suggest MAKE, Adafruit, phil, dale and limor bog off and look after their business, and stop trying to stir up trouble for others.
>
>
> hi bob,
>
> here are some facts.
>
> 1) i did not write the article on MAKE, dale, the publisher of MAKE did. dale and i have disagreed, a lot, about MAKE's handling of coverage of arduino. you're welcome to email me directly and i will tell you anything and answer any questions.
>
> 2) the MAKE article about adafruit was planned before april, this is the first time MAKE (print) has written about adafruit in over 10+ years (specifically, limor, the company, etc). dale and i have disagreed about MAKE's coverage, and lack of, of arduino and adafruit, specifically limor and adafruit. i also disagreed with the 2 former ceo's of MAKE on their coverage (and lack of) of women makers and underrepresented makers, feel free to email me directly about that. you're welcome to email me directly and i will tell you anything and answer any questions.
>
> 3) i disagreed with some of MAKE's coverage of makerbot and bre. and you're welcome to email bre, and ask him if he enjoyed my writing about makerbot on adafruit, which included the class-action lawsuit and the resignations of many of the executives. at this time, bre does not talk to me, so you'll need to ask him.
>
> 4) regarding your claim that we (adafruit banned you). you're welcome to email me directly, however all i see is on email where you asked for a link to be updated (we did) and thanked you, email is below.
>
>
>
>
>

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[phillip torrone]

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Clóvis Fritzen <clo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please guys, we all know where this is going. Whenever a third-party company embraces a cause to itself that cause is deemed to fail. E.g hackaday, hackster, arduino (all became advertisemenr selling places). There is no hope while company money is on play

clovis, i do not believe anyone wants arduino to fail (at least i can say for sure, limor and i do not) this was asking about the promised foundation, from arduino, by arduino, to make sure it *does not* fail.

thanks,
pt

[bob]

Hey phil,

you came here to cause trouble, you got it.

Here's a fact for you, you are behaving like a real asshole.

Just drop it.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to developers+unsubscribe@arduino.cc.

[Jack Rickard]

Why is it that victory always lead to the same thing?  All participants grab a firearm and form a circular firing squad.  Ready.  Fire.  Aim....

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[Collin Kidder]

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Massimo Banzi <m.b...@bcmi-labs.cc> wrote:
> Let me state the obvious: Arduino is already free because its software is
> GPL and the hardware is CC so nobody is going to take it away from anybody.
> Many companies have built million dollar businesses based on this simple
> predicate.

I would tend to agree here. As someone who uses Arduino a lot and has
contributed a little bit to the core code I really don't care about
this foundation. If it happens, great. If not, life goes on. Nobody
can really steal anything. Don't like what Arduino is doing with X or
Y? Then go ahead, fork the code, make your own version of the hardware
and give it a go. I was concerned when there was a bit rift between
two "Arduino"s but now that that's resolved everything else seems less
important. I guess I'm not trying to marginalize the view that perhaps
companies should do what they said they'd do. If a foundation was
promised then I suppose Arduino maybe should at least explain why it
has not happened. But, we're all still using Arduino, aren't we? Life
is continuing forward. As Jack said, unfortunately people who should
be on the same side all form sectarian factions and go at each other's
throats. Let's all just try to make Arduino great and not sweat the
details so much.

[bob]

Just to let everyone know, as this might be my last post.

Philip Torrone, associate of MAKE and partner of Limor Fried (Adafruit), is trying to use his influence behind the scenes to get me banned from this forum.

They encouraged people to use their voice. I used mine, but now they don't like what they hear they are using their resources to silence me.

Nice people....

[phillip torrone]

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 12:19 PM, 'bob' via Developers <devel...@arduino.cc> wrote:
> Just to let everyone know, as this might be my last post.
> Philip Torrone, associate of MAKE and partner of Limor Fried (Adafruit), is trying to use his influence behind the scenes to get me banned from this forum.
> They encouraged people to use their voice. I used mine, but now they don't like what they hear they are using their resources to silence me.
> Nice people....

hi bob, this is what i sent massimo and cc'ed you.

i did not ask for you to be banned.

thanks,
pt

> From: phillip torrone <p...@adafruit.com>
> Subject: code of conduct for mailing list?
> Date: June 13, 2017 at 12:00:55 PM EDT
> hi massimo,
>
> is there a code of conduct for the mailing list?
>
> here are the things that bob has said today.

> "Bottom line : I don't give a fuck what you guys think about Arduino. I am not interested in your lame excuses or PR bullshit."

> "PPS Let's all go to MAKE and Adafruit web forums and complain about their business practices."

> "Here's a fact for you, you are behaving like a real asshole. "
>

> i am not sure of christian's email address, but used: cris...@tinker.it
>
> please forward this along, it does not seem appropriate to allow cursing, personal attacks and threats on the arduino developer list.
>
> bob, if you'd like to discuss this and resolve any issues with me and/or limor that you, feel free to email us directly.
>
> thanks,
> pt

[Jack Rickard]

Ad hominums are part of life online Phillip.  Very PC to call Bob out on "cursewords" which I'm sure offended your sensitive ears.  But you never addressed any of his actual points, simply went for the snowflake battlecry = diverting.

Here's an online code of conduct to live by:  "Don't be a fucking asshole."

And yes, private e-mail is always appropriate.

Jack Rickard

PS Yes, Bob. Let me have it. I've been online since the BEGINNING of Usenet and Fidonet.  I'd just LOVE to hear a new one.

>
> thanks,
> pt

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[Jack Rickard]

All I've ever wanted from Arduino - a form feed or clear screen character for the monitor....not precisely HTML5

[phillip torrone]

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Jack Rickard <ja...@evtv.me> wrote:
> Ad hominums are part of life online Phillip. Very PC to call Bob out on "cursewords" which I'm sure offended your sensitive ears. But you never addressed any of his actual points, simply went for the snowflake battlecry = diverting.
> Here's an online code of conduct to live by: "Don't be a fucking asshole."
> And yes, private e-mail is always appropriate.
> Jack Rickard
> PS Yes, Bob. Let me have it. I've been online since the BEGINNING of Usenet and Fidonet. I'd just LOVE to hear a new one.

hi jack,

which points did i not address? please let me know and i will.

you can email me directly as well if you prefer.

thanks,
pt

[Bill Perry]

On 06/13/2017 11:17 AM, Collin Kidder wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Massimo Banzi <m.b...@bcmi-labs.cc> wrote:
>> Let me state the obvious: Arduino is already free because its software is
>> GPL and the hardware is CC so nobody is going to take it away from anybody.
>> Many companies have built million dollar businesses based on this simple
>> predicate.
> I would tend to agree here.

I don't disagree with the free part, but
I actually disagree with that last statement by Massimo replicated again below:

> Many companies have built million dollar businesses based on this simple
> predicate.

I've seen many companies successfully use open source in their products, including
a few large and successful ones (TomTom, Tivo, GoPro, Samsung Android phones, to name a few), but I can't think of an example where
the company 100% opened up *everything* (s/w and h/w).
(All of those above do have closed components)
i.e. some open up their source but not the h/w, some open up their h/w but not the source.
Many use open source but not all their source code is open and some will open up some of the h/w but not all of it.
Apple opened everything in the very early days of the Apple ][ by providing schematics and Rom listing.
IBM followed suit on the original PC a few years later.
Both soon abandoned this practice.
The reason for this is that a business needs to ensure it can make money to survive.
So while there is nothing to "steal" when everything is open,
when you open up everything, then you lower the barrier to entry for all your competitors.
If there is money to be made and the barrier gets very low, which is the case when everything is open,
your competitors can take everything and recreate it and be able to make money at a lower price point since their
development and support costs are lower.
i.e. a business simply can't survive if it spends resources developing h/w and developing & maintaining s/w and then gives it all away to the world for free.

This is why most companies do not open up both all their source code and all their h/w designs.
They hold back portions of the code or h/w they believe are their "secret sauce" that provides value over other their potential competitors as they want people to purchase their products over their competitors.
We even see this in certain Arduino products.
For example, a vendor might choose to keep their bootloader closed source.

This is a very big long term concern that I've always had for Arduino.
i.e. over the long term, how does Arduino, as we know it today, maintain enough of a revenue stream to fund the development that it gives away for free?

> As someone who uses Arduino a lot and has
> contributed a little bit to the core code I really don't care about
> this foundation. If it happens, great. If not, life goes on. Nobody
> can really steal anything.

IMHO, this is a bit myopic point of view.
Sure nobody can "steal" anything because it is all open source,
however, there is nothing to prevent other players from stepping in and producing lower cost products (with no revenue sharing) that compete with the official or licensed Arduino products that do provide some amount of revenue back to support Arduino
development.

Or a fork happens that splits things or creates disruptions.
Or having one or more corporate entities influencing the project in ways that may not be best for the community.
The entity with the most resources will always win.

I can envision several scenarios where Ardiuno s/w development could get starved of resources.
And then what happens?

And that is why I liked the idea of moving to a foundation model.
It can formalize things to provide a clear vision and methodology of how the Arduino project (particularly s/w) is developed, supported, and maintained.
It could provide a clear methodology and process for how the project interacts with the community as well as provide a mechanism for long term sustainability.
It could also ensure that the project is independent and not being overly steered or influenced by any particular corporate entity.

IMO, Arduino could really benefit from something like this, and when I read in the past about it forming an independent foundation, I thought it was a great idea.
That is why I was so surprise by all the flames thrown back at Phillip for bringing this up.

I don't have any history with Philip, Adafruit, or MAKE, but I really didn't see his comments as being so inflammatory to be deserving of the types of responses I've seen.

--- bill

[phillip torrone]

> IMO, Arduino could really benefit from something like this, and when I read in the past about it forming an independent foundation, I thought it was a great idea.
> That is why I was so surprise by all the flames thrown back at Phillip for bringing this up.
> I don't have any history with Philip, Adafruit, or MAKE, but I really didn't see his comments as being so inflammatory to be deserving of the types of responses I've seen.
> --- bill

thanks bill, limor and i will email you directly, if anyone additionally is interested in this, please email me as well.

thanks,
pt

[bob]

Phil still trying to get me banned by publishing private emails, so here are his:

-------------


hey massimo, we tried and offer to resolve any issues bob had, it appears he is boycotting adafruit, email(s) below. i would suggest the mailing list has a code of conduct, the foundation is something that contributing members of the arduino developer community are interested in, we'll follow up with bill who just posted too.

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Bill Perry <bper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IMO, Arduino could really benefit from something like this, and when I read in the past about it forming an independent foundation, I thought it was a great idea.
> That is why I was so surprise by all the flames thrown back at Phillip for bringing this up.
> I don't have any history with Philip, Adafruit, or MAKE, but I really didn't see his comments as being so inflammatory to be deserving of the types of responses I've seen.
> --- bill

> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Developers" group.

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Bob Cousins <bobcou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> You really are a complete moron. Discussion with you is futile, you can't even understand what I write!
> I am quite happy to boycott Adafruit and anything to do with them. I am not interested in discussing anything with you.
> Please stop emailing me.


> On Jun 13, 2017, at 12:33 PM, phillip torrone <p...@adafruit.com> wrote:
> hi bob,
> the arduino foundation, that was promised by arduino is not disrupting and attacking other people's businesses.
> you continue to curse at me, i am asking massimo if there a code of conduct for the list that you could be held accountable to if you choose to participate.
> we are more than willing to discuss anything with your directly if you'd like to resolve any issues you have with me, limor/adafruit.
> thanks,
> pt



>> On Jun 13, 2017, at 12:25 PM, Bob Cousins <bobcou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> hey phil,
>> Is there a code of conduct for disrupting and attacking other people's businesses?
>> It does not seem appropriate to use the Arduino forum to stir up trouble for Arduino.
>> If you don't like it, fuck off.

>> On 13 June 2017 at 17:00, phillip torrone <p...@adafruit.com> wrote:
>> hi massimo,
>> is there a code of conduct for the mailing list?
>>
>> here are the things that bob has said today.
>>        "Bottom line : I don't give a fuck what you guys think about Arduino. I am not interested in your lame excuses or PR bullshit."
>>        "PPS Let's all go to MAKE and Adafruit web forums and complain about their business practices."
>>        "Here's a fact for you, you are behaving like a real asshole. "
>>
>> i am not sure of christian's email address, but used: cris...@tinker.it
>>
>> please forward this along, it does not seem appropriate to allow cursing, personal attacks and threats on the arduino developer list.
>>
>> bob, if you'd like to discuss this and resolve any issues with me and/or limor that you, feel free to email us directly.
>>
>> thanks,
>> pt

[Osqui]

I don't understand any of these problems all of you are saying but as a plain customer is very very very confusing having to deal with two differents webs (.org and .cc) with different stock of boards (many of them perpetually unavailable), lack of libraries for some of them (Ethernet2, hello?), etc. All this stuff is really disordered.

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[Michael Schwager]

Guys,

Chill. As a (totally) disinterested observer, it's true that Phil posted to a techie list stuff that doesn't belong here, Bob got riled up and started cursing, so there's a lot to be disappointed about in this thread.

The biggest disappointment would be if it continued.

One of my coworkers has an interesting methodolgy: If an email thread gets started and misunderstandings arise, he's very quick to say "let's get on a call". It's quite awesome, and I appreciate him modeling good behavior.

So why don't you guys talk it out, man to man, mano a mano, tet-a-tet? In the meantime, as Mr. Banzi has so elqquently stated, "Let’s move back to talk about nerdy stuff."

--

-Mike Schwager

[phillip torrone]

thanks michael,

limor and i offered to talk with bob directly and we're more than happy to do a call.

i would ask that if the developer list wants participating from a diverse interesting group of people, there would be a code of conduct so abusive comments, threats, cursing and personal attacks and insults are addressed.

regarding "nerdy stuff" limor is a prolific contributor to the arduino libraries and more, we'd very much like to dedicate even more time to that, it's challenging when we cannot get the status of the promised foundation, from arduino, replies from arduino and a lot of other related information to help out.

thanks,
pt

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Michael Schwager <mi...@schwager.com> wrote:
>
> Guys,
> Chill. As a (totally) disinterested observer, it's true that Phil posted to a techie list stuff that doesn't belong here, Bob got riled up and started cursing, so there's a lot to be disappointed about in this thread.
>
> The biggest disappointment would be if it continued.
>
> One of my coworkers has an interesting methodolgy: If an email thread gets started and misunderstandings arise, he's very quick to say "let's get on a call". It's quite awesome, and I appreciate him modeling good behavior.
>
> So why don't you guys talk it out, man to man, mano a mano, tet-a-tet? In the meantime, as Mr. Banzi has so elqquently stated, "Let’s move back to talk about nerdy stuff."
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Osqui <q2d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't understand any of these problems all of you are saying but as a plain customer is very very very confusing having to deal with two differents webs (.org and .cc) with different stock of boards (many of them perpetually unavailable), lack of libraries for some of them (Ethernet2, hello?), etc. All this stuff is really disordered.
>
> 2017-06-13 20:08 GMT+02:00 'bob' via Developers <devel...@arduino.cc>:
> Phil still trying to get me banned by publishing private emails, so here are his:
>
> -------------
>
>
> hey massimo, we tried and offer to resolve any issues bob had, it appears he is boycotting adafruit, email(s) below. i would suggest the mailing list has a code of conduct, the foundation is something that contributing members of the arduino developer community are interested in, we'll follow up with bill who just posted too.
>
> > On Jun 13, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Bill Perry <bper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > IMO, Arduino could really benefit from something like this, and when I read in the past about it forming an independent foundation, I thought it was a great idea.
> > That is why I was so surprise by all the flames thrown back at Phillip for bringing this up.
> > I don't have any history with Philip, Adafruit, or MAKE, but I really didn't see his comments as being so inflammatory to be deserving of the types of responses I've seen.
> > --- bill
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Developers" group.
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[Jack Rickard]

And that STILL sounds like a political campaign Mr. Torrone and quite inappropriate to this developers mailing list.  What does it have to do with any technical aspect of Arduino?

So START YOUR OWN GROUP - the Foundation of the Universe Group Hosanna Ad Infinitum FOTUGHAI.  You can invite all the many thousands you have heard from that agree with you and thrash out the politics of this ad nauseum.

Demanding a "code of throw Bob out of here" in a technical forum to preserve its purity while fomenting a political movement yourself would appear to be counterproductive if you wish to attract those without a dog in the fight.

Jack Rickard

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[phillip torrone]

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 11:19 PM, Jack Rickard <ja...@evtv.me> wrote:
> And that STILL sounds like a political campaign Mr. Torrone and quite inappropriate to this developers mailing list. What does it have to do with any technical aspect of Arduino?

do you believe limor and i (and adafruit) have contributed code, resources, hardware, manufacturing and efforts for arduino?

> So START YOUR OWN GROUP - the Foundation of the Universe Group Hosanna Ad Infinitum FOTUGHAI. You can invite all the many thousands you have heard from that agree with you and thrash out the politics of this ad nauseum.

the arduino foundation, was promised, and announced by arduino:
http://makezine.com/2017/06/09/free-arduino/

and:
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/05/19/988298/0/en/Arduino-Foundation-Offers-Membership-to-Passionate-Community-of-Developers.html

"Arduino Foundation Offers Membership to Passionate Community of Developers"

==
“All that we have, we owe to the community,” said Arduino CEO Federico Musto. “The Foundation is a way to encourage members take Arduino to places they want to see it go. Arduino is just implementing the first step to ensure that Arduino remains a community-driven, open source effort. As soon as it gets off the ground, of course, members will decide how to grow and strengthen the IDE software to continue making projects in education, IoT and beyond.”
==

> Demanding a "code of throw Bob out of here" in a technical forum to preserve its purity while fomenting a political movement yourself would appear to be counterproductive if you wish to attract those without a dog in the fight.

i did not request for anyone to throw out bob.

thanks,
pt

> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to developers+...@arduino.cc.

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[bob]

This is quite curious, it seems there is an organised campaign by Adafruit and MAKE magazine (Phil Torrone, Limor Fried, Dale Dougherty) to take control of Arduino. They even have a logo and a hashtag!

https://donotdespisethesnake.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/adafruit-start-hostile-takeover-bid-for-arduino/

I really don't know what Adafruit hope to achieve with this crusade (more money is the usual answer, maybe they just want a discount on Arduino royalties), but these people clearly lack the intelligence or support to get anywhere with this, so I don't regard it as a real threat. I think it will be widely regarded as a "dick move".  Since Arduino own their trademark, Adafruit could only follow through with their rival organisation by stealing the trademark. Which ironically, is what they accuse Musto of doing.

Phil Torrone is very disingenuous to disguise his involvement, and start "concern trolling" the developer forum. To be clear, Phil Torrone represents Adafruit and MAKE magazine, and he has the full endorsement of Limor Fried (Adafruit), and Dale Dougherty (CEO MAKE) with this campaign to take over Arduino.

Anyway, I call on everyone who cares to boycott Adafruit and MAKE magazine, they are clearly not friends of Open Source or Arduino. This must be very annoying for Arduino, who really only just got through the last set of headaches.

PS. I tried to avoid naughty words, maybe some slipped through, so I hope Phil doesn't try to get me banned for calling out his scummy takeover bid.

PPS Really this will be my last word on the subject, and I apologize to everyone for the disruption.

On Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 4:24:25 AM UTC+1, phillip torrone wrote:

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 11:19 PM, Jack Rickard <ja...@evtv.me> wrote:
> And that STILL sounds like a political campaign Mr. Torrone and quite inappropriate to this developers mailing list.  What does it have to do with any technical aspect of Arduino?

 do you believe limor and i (and adafruit) have contributed code, resources, hardware, manufacturing and efforts for arduino?

> So START YOUR OWN GROUP - the Foundation of the Universe Group Hosanna Ad Infinitum FOTUGHAI.  You can invite all the many thousands you have heard from that agree with you and thrash out the politics of this ad nauseum.

the arduino foundation, was promised, and announced by arduino:
        http://makezine.com/2017/06/09/free-arduino/

and:
        https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/05/19/988298/0/en/Arduino-Foundation-Offers-Membership-to-Passionate-Community-of-Developers.html

"Arduino Foundation Offers Membership to Passionate Community of Developers"

==
“All that we have, we owe to the community,” said Arduino CEO Federico Musto. “The Foundation is a way to encourage members take Arduino to places they want to see it go. Arduino is just implementing the first step to ensure that Arduino remains a community-driven, open source effort. As soon as it gets off the ground, of course, members will decide how to grow and strengthen the IDE software to continue making projects in education, IoT and beyond.”
==

> Demanding a "code of throw Bob out of here" in a technical forum to preserve its purity while fomenting a political movement yourself would appear to be counterproductive if you wish to attract those without a dog in the fight.

i did not request for anyone to throw out bob.

thanks,
pt

> > >> i am not sure of christian's email address, but used: cri...@tinker.it

> > >>
> > >> please forward this along, it does not seem appropriate to allow cursing, personal attacks and threats on the arduino developer list.
> > >>
> > >> bob, if you'd like to discuss this and resolve any issues with me and/or limor that you, feel free to email us directly.
> > >>
> > >> thanks,
> > >> pt
> >
> > On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 5:56:58 PM UTC+1, phillip torrone wrote:
> > > On Jun 13, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Jack Rickard <ja...@evtv.me> wrote:
> > > Ad hominums are part of life online Phillip.  Very PC to call Bob out on "cursewords" which I'm sure offended your sensitive ears.  But you never addressed any of his actual points, simply went for the snowflake battlecry = diverting.
> > > Here's an online code of conduct to live by:  "Don't be a fucking asshole."
> > > And yes, private e-mail is always appropriate.
> > > Jack Rickard
> > > PS Yes, Bob. Let me have it. I've been online since the BEGINNING of Usenet and Fidonet.  I'd just LOVE to hear a new one.
> >
> >
> > hi jack,
> >
> > which points did i not address? please let me know and i will.
> >
> > you can email me directly as well if you prefer.
> >
> > thanks,
> > pt
> >
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[phillip torrone]

hi bob,

here are some comments and some facts.

> On Jun 14, 2017, at 7:29 AM, 'bob' via Developers <devel...@arduino.cc> wrote:
> This is quite curious, it seems there is an organised campaign by Adafruit and MAKE magazine (Phil Torrone, Limor Fried, Dale Dougherty) to take control of Arduino. They even have a logo and a hashtag!
> https://donotdespisethesnake.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/adafruit-start-hostile-takeover-bid-for-arduino/

many people, including limor and i, and the arduino community are asking the status of the promised arduino foundation, it's been almost a year and arduino additionally issued another press release 1 month ago.

"Arduino Foundation Offers Membership to Passionate Community of Developers"

==
“All that we have, we owe to the community,” said Arduino CEO Federico Musto. “The Foundation is a way to encourage members take Arduino to places they want to see it go. Arduino is just implementing the first step to ensure that Arduino remains a community-driven, open source effort. As soon as it gets off the ground, of course, members will decide how to grow and strengthen the IDE software to continue making projects in education, IoT and beyond.”
==

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/05/19/988298/0/en/Arduino-Foundation-Offers-Membership-to-Passionate-Community-of-Developers.html

> I really don't know what Adafruit hope to achieve with this crusade (more money is the usual answer, maybe they just want a discount on Arduino royalties), but these people clearly lack the intelligence or support to get anywhere with this, so I don't regard it as a real threat. I think it will be widely regarded as a "dick move". Since Arduino own their trademark, Adafruit could only follow through with their rival organisation by stealing the trademark. Which ironically, is what they accuse Musto of doing.

we, and many others, are following up on what arduino itself promised, an arduino foundation. limor, myself and adafruit would not participate in any board position or role in an arduino foundation if and when the one arduino promised is created.

> Phil Torrone is very disingenuous to disguise his involvement, and start "concern trolling" the developer forum. To be clear, Phil Torrone represents Adafruit and MAKE magazine, and he has the full endorsement of Limor Fried (Adafruit), and Dale Dougherty (CEO MAKE) with this campaign to take over Arduino.

i do not represent MAKE magazine.

> Anyway, I call on everyone who cares to boycott Adafruit and MAKE magazine, they are clearly not friends of Open Source or Arduino. This must be very annoying for Arduino, who really only just got through the last set of headaches.

> PS. I tried to avoid naughty words, maybe some slipped through, so I hope Phil doesn't try to get me banned for calling out his scummy takeover bid.
> PPS Really this will be my last word on the subject, and I apologize to everyone for the disruption.

i never requested for you to be banned.

thanks,
pt

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[Adrian Godwin]

Philip, will you please take this somewhere else ?

> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to developers+unsubscribe@arduino.cc.

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[Clóvis Fritzen]

Bob, you have crossed the line of politeness and productive discussion multiple times now.

Where do you want to go with conspiracy-theory accusation on Adafruit? We all know that Arduino is a Brand in and of itself, protected by copyright and all that legal stuff.

IF (and only IF) Adafruit or Make are trying to monetize on Arduino Brand is not for us to judge, and also isn't that what Arduino wants us all to do? I mean, Look at companies like Sparkfun, Particle, SeedStudio, etc... they all massively "profit over the Arduino Brand" and there is nothing wrong with that. It even helps the whole ecossystem grow strong. 

Now ... I do not know if there are any moderators on this group, but I would strongly advise them to ban Bob from here, accused of being counterproductive and non-sense.

Clovis Fritzen +55(47) 9204-6606

http://www.FritzenMaker.com (EN)

http://www.FritzenLab.com.br (PT-Br)

[Jim Leonard]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 01:06:39PM +0100, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> Philip, will you please take this somewhere else ?

I'm curious. Where is an appropriate somewhere else? (because I'd like to find myself there). Other people have made "political" posts here in the past that were well received. As far as I can tell, the only difference is that the authors of the other posts didn't get immediate and persistent personal attacks from someone else (which seem pretty baseless to me).

And the points Phillip brings up feel like they _should_ be important to many developers.

I've been mostly watching from the side since I'm not a significant contributor to the list or project. Maybe I shouldn't be on this list? I'm just a generally happy user who found a significant bug in one of the core libraries and came here to propose a fix (and then stayed for a while). But the general attacks on Phillip felt like they were well over the top to me and it became difficult to stay silent.

> > send an email to developers+...@arduino.cc.

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[Adrian Godwin]

I have no idea where it might be discussed and am not interested in finding out.

People get asked to move discussions away from here because they're not technical enough. Surely politics should be in an even more exposed forum ? If there isn't one already, start one. I won't be joining.

For what it's worth, I think both sides a have a point and yes, some of the fallout could be interesting to developers. That doesn't make it on-topic here. Especially when it's reduced to the participants merely making the same points over and over, to the detriment of both their reputations.

> > send an email to developers+unsubscribe@arduino.cc.

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[Gabriel Staples, ElectricRCAircraftGuy.com]

I agree, I'd have banned Bob from this group after 1 warning, which he has well exceeded. His comments and demeanor are despicable regardless of any points he may or may not have. Developers and contributors should have a certain level of professionalism, and he doesn't. If we dont want politics here, we certainly shouldnt permit inflammatory words and blatant and repeated attacks on others either. I'm normally a passive observer but this shouldn't be accepted, so I felt I had to say something too. I should have said something earlier too. 

Sincerely,

Gabriel Staples
Electric RC Aircraft Guy, LLC
www.ElectricRCAircraftGuy.com

(sent from my Android)

--

[Brandon Curtis]

Project governance is not just about politics.  Open source projects ignore governance issues at their peril—there are graveyards full of projects that have fallen apart completely, and many more that squandered the talent and goodwill of their communities, because they didn't take these questions seriously.

I would think that a project's developers would want to participate in, or at least stay apprised of, these discussions, and if not they could find their way to their email client's 'mute thread' hotkey.

(based on some of the replies above, this project could also benefit from a community manager)

[Paul Duke]

You have to wonder - will arduino go on forever? Most admit nothing goes on forever so where's the end?

[Andrew Kroll]

Death is forever....

Visit my github for awesome Arduino code @ https://github.com/xxxajk

[Peter Feerick]

​lol... sheer Misinformation!!!! Arduino won't die... as long as someone, somewhere has it running on their computer or has a board doing something! :-P​

And my 2 cents... I'm curious about the Arduino Foundation... but I think certain people are being a bit too forceful about it. Everyone knows that the wheels at Arduino take a long time to turn... so it's just a matter of patience! ;) And yes, this is supposed to be the *developers* forum, but promises like this one affect everyone involved to some extent, so the question seems valid to be asked here. But any serious gripes about how Arduino (the company, not the software) does things really doesn't belong here. 

Peter Feerick
BIT, BLDes CQU

[William Westfield]

> You have to wonder - will arduino go on forever?

It’s not unusual for “standards track” *things* to end up under the control of some sort of “industry consortium” where no one actual vendor is permitted to have “controlling interest” or “undue influence.”
Some of these do really well (TCP/IP (governed by IETF), USB, “Ethernet”), and some don’t (EISA Bus, nuBus, FDDI (ANSI/ISO !), SmartMedia, etc.)

This is one way to encourage vendors to use a standard rather than inventing their own thing, with less fear of having their contributions become useless due to some move by a nominal competitor.

I’m not exactly sure how the concept interacts with things that are “open source.” (Is The Linux Foundation a useful model?)

I don’t know if the Arduino world is big enough to support such a consortium, or exactly how funding works. (USB-IF has 900 “member companies”, paying ~$4000/year; that’s quite a few FTE salaries. Ethernet started with a gang-of-three, but all were well-established. There are perhaps a score or two Arduino-related companies of reasonable size (income-wise?), and I don’t know that all of them would be willing to participate in such a thing. And there are nearly as many active competitors trying to displace Arduino with their own vision of “something better.” A tough sell...

BillW/WestfW

[Phillip]

hey bill,

if the arduino foundation, which was promised by arduino was formed, the foundation could be in charge of the logo and name usage, this way arduino.org would need to stick the open-source requirements for the boards, licenses, code, etc. if they did not, they would be in violation of the usage agreement.

this is possible to do -now- , the costs are minimal, and it's what was promised, an arduino foundation. the arduino foundation for "passionate developers" as the arduino press release says, could make sure if "arduino is open source" it actually is, and if it's not, something called arduino cannot be sold unless it is open source.

the arduino products are advertised and sold-as open source which means something specific and the core arduino team was/is aware of what open source hardware is defined as – they each signed the oshw definition.

tom igoe, david mellis, davide cuartielles and massimo banzi –

https://www.oshwa.org/definition/

—–

1. Documentation

The hardware must be released with documentation including design files, and must allow modification and distribution of the design files. Where documentation is not furnished with the physical product, there must be a well-publicized means of obtaining this documentation for no more than a reasonable reproduction cost, preferably downloading via the Internet without charge. The documentation must include design files in the preferred format for making changes, for example the native file format of a CAD program. Deliberately obfuscated design files are not allowed. Intermediate forms analogous to compiled computer code — such as printer-ready copper artwork from a CAD program — are not allowed as substitutes. The license may require that the design files are provided in fully-documented, open format(s).

—–

the few incomplete files for many of the arduino products (PDFs) have "DogHunter" as the author/owner, not arduino - it would be good for developers to know who owns what, what license it's under, and where the design files are, or if arduino has decided to go closed source on their products.

thanks,

pt

[bob]

Yes, I am sincerely sorry for disrupting this list. With hindsight, I realized I had become one of those "useful idiots" helping to achieve Adafruit's campaign of causing disruption to Arduino where-ever possible, in order to try to get rid of Federico Musto.

"To women in the maker movement, who are often accused of being fake geeks and frequently have their expertise questioned, Musto’s apparent lies are personal affronts. “When you go to MIT, there is always this murmur that they had to lower the standards for you,” Fried says. “And after you graduate, you get asked all the time if you were actually smart enough to have earned your credentials. It’s a little bit insane that this guy has gotten this far without ever being questioned.”"

-- Limor Fried quoted in Wired.

"Musto has shown us that he cannot be trusted. It is bad enough that he has gained control of Arduino Holding. We must not allow him to control the foundation. The real reason for an Arduino Foundation is to free Arduino from Federico Musto"

-- article in MAKE magazine, endorsed by Adafruit (Limor Fried and Phil Torrone)

I should have realised that Phil is just an annoyance like a buzzing fly, and is best just ignored. I fully agree, vendettas and politics should not be here. Adafruit brought it here... I over-responded.

Regards

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[Collin Kidder]

Really quickly I'd like to say that while I did say I was a bit apathetic I still support Phil's push for the foundation and think it is both topical to the developers on this list and a good idea. As for this Bob guy, please find a new group of people to irritate. There are many other places on the internet where you can be you. Reddit might be a good option. It certainly doesn't appear that even a single person wants to continue to hear from you in this thread. Perhaps you're a swell guy most of the time but not in this thread you aren't. 

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[Elliot Williams]

If you're reading this thread, and you'd like to read what came out of Hackaday's interview with Musto and Banzi concerning the Foundation, why it's taken so long, and where it's probably going, go see http://hackaday.com/2017/06/19/the-arduino-foundation-whats-up/.

(Shameless plug: I wrote the piece.)

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[phillip torrone]

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 10:14 AM, Elliot Williams <elliotw...@hackaday.com> wrote:
> If you're reading this thread, and you'd like to read what came out of Hackaday's interview with Musto and Banzi concerning the Foundation, why it's taken so long, and where it's probably going, go see http://hackaday.com/2017/06/19/the-arduino-foundation-whats-up/.
> (Shameless plug: I wrote the piece.)

good work on the article elliot, this is a complex topic spanning years, companies, people, and more - you did a really good job getting the information in one place.

cheers,
pt

[phil bowles]

bob, stay! This is SO much better than reality TV. I joined the group a long time ago to learn / offer deeper technical insights but this is a wonderfully entertaining distraction. Human nature at its most raw, what could be more fascinating? We live in an imperfect world, humans are imperfect beings. Code is imperfect,  hardware is imperfect...this thread proves there is so much more to programming than just symbols on a screen. Welcome to the real world, all you folk who want this thread elsewhere. I don't give a monkeys either way, but then I have other things in my life too. You don't like it? Don't read it. Personally I love it!

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