Tsugi + LTI 1.3 + Xerte + Brightspace Grading

[RonM]

Hi

a question has arisen with our integration between Tsugi + LTI 1.3 + Xerte + different VLE's and in this case Brightspace grading. To quickly summarise and explain the difference we are getting:

With each of the VLE's we register Xerte/Tsugi as the allowed external tool and create the Issuer and Tenant in Tsugi and all that now works fine.

As part of this process with each of the VLE's there are some differences but basically we make sure that we enable grade services etc.

An author then creates an LTI 1.3 link to their Xerte resource in the VLE and makes it available to learners and subsequently learners interact with that Xerte resource.

So far so good.

With Moodle and Blackboard when the LTI 1.3 link is added a gradebook item is automatically created in that VLE course to receive the grades for that resource and when the learners interact the grades are stored in the gradebook. However with Brightspace this doesn't happen because the gradebook item isn't automatically created.

However if a gradebook item is manually created in Brightspace then the grades are stored.

Working through this with someone from Brightspace the comment was: "No, we do not auto create grade items. We expect the tool to use AGS to create the lineitem/grade item."

I might be misunderstanding where the problem lies and perhaps this is just a configuration issue but is this a key difference between Brightspace and other VLEs and how should we look to resolve this?

Thanks

Ron

[Chris Filkins]

Ron,

When you add the tool into Moodle/Bb, what kind of placement is it?  I'd be curious to see your directions to setup Xerte with the different platforms to help spot the differences :)  But usually, I would think you'd use the LTI grade mechanism to create/return a grade for an item, if needed. 

-Chris

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[Charles Severance]

Ron,

I have wondered how long it was going to be before we hit this topic.  I am surprised it took this long.  Tsugi is well-tested with D2L’s LTI 1.3 - Tsugi was one of the first tools outside of D2L to be tested by them.  In general D2L’s approach to LTI is amazing - they try to live up to everything that is LTI.  But sometimes they make a decision that is *allowed* in the spec but different than any other LMS.

What you are experiencing below is one of those things.  Nearly all LMS’s do the auto-create trick about the same for LTI 1.1 and LTI 1.3.  D2L decided not to bring that feature forward in LTI 1.3.  And it is 100% within the spec *not* to support that feature (unless of course you are using DeepLinking).  In some ways the D2L approach is theoretically “more elegant” but it requires that tools take a different approach between LTI 1.1 and LTI 1.3.  Having written all the code in Sakai with all the variations, I see how their approach leads to simpler LMS code - but I placed ease of transition for tools as a higher priority in Sakai - the same as all but D2L.

The good news is that I have been waiting for this to happen and already have a design to solve it and the right place in Tsugi to solve the problem.  You might then ask why I did not already fix it in Tsugi :)  It was because since all the non-D2L LMS’s did it the same way - I really had no good way to test the feature - so I held off.

But now is the time.  You obviously are in a good spot to test this.  It should be less than a day of work to make it happen if I have a good way to test it :)

I am going to privately reach out to my pals at D2L and see if I can make the change and test it with D2L engineers watching so that I make sure I do it the way that D2L would most like it to happen.  If I can’t get D2L to help - I can come up with a weird test harness (i.e. break by dev copy of Sakai temporarily) and then get a version of Tsugi to you to test with your D2L partner.

So thanks for bringing this up - now I can build it into Tsugi and get it right and well tested right away.

/Chuck

[RonM]

Hi both

sorry for the lack of reply until now.

I'm glad I don't really have to answer the question from Chris about what kind of placement this is because I'm not entirely sure how to answer that! ;-) I think I have seen placement referred to with Blackboard but I don't think with Moodle and I don't have direct or regular access to Blackboard or Brightspace/D2L only when I'm in a screensharing session with organisations using those VLEs.

I'm also kind of pleased that my assumption was correct and that this does reflect a difference between D2L vs Blackboard and Moodle rather than something wrong with the configuration in this case. Also great that you already have a design to solve it! In this case with the university I've been working with they also haven't really been using our previous Xerte/Tsugi LTI 1.1 functionality so we don't have to worry about maintaining backwards compatibility or lots of existing LTI resources already in use. I have access to update Tsugi and Xerte on their servers but will then need to liaise with them to test the D2L integration once I've put any new code in place.

Will await news but also happy to discuss and help with testing if/when needed.

Many thanks

Ron