Accidentally deleting forum topics

[Christina Schwiebert]

I've had a couple different instructors accidentally delete entire forum topics when they think they are deleting a conversation. They are viewing the conversations in a topic, and check the box in front of one or more conversations that they plan to remove. They then click the "Delete Topic" button at the top, and click through the warning, thinking they are just deleting those conversations and any replies. (see screenshot attached) When they realize it deleted the entire topic and all conversations, they panic, call me, and we have Longsight restore it, so it is fixable but frustrating. Has anyone else had this happen? 

I'd think if there's the checkboxes, there would be a 'remove post' option that would just delete the selected ones, as that seems to be how other tools work. There's got to be a way to make it clearer. No checkboxes? A "Delete Threads" with the "Move Threads" link? Have the warning list out all of the conversations that are being deleted?

Christina

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Christina Schwiebert

Instructional Design and Distance Learning Coordinator

Northwest State Community College

cschw...@northweststate.edu

419-267-1428

 

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often" - Winston Churchill

 

"The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." - Abraham Lincoln

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[gdoyle]

This happens to us too. It's very frustrating. I would think the warning would prevent this, but I've been proven wrong on that lol. Why not make it a Permission? If we can toggle Instructor's permissions to Add New Topics why can't we do the same for Delete Topic?

Greg

[Matthew Jones]

It sounds like the best fix here would be something similarly implemented in Samigo for published assessment deleting in 11 in https://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAM-2587

This would prevent deleting the topic unless it was empty (all of the messages were also deleted) I think this would also benefit from a "select all" checkbox for the messages. 

In Samigo it is cumbersome because there are no checkboxes on each assessement so deleting them would take some time, so I'd might even consider (in both of these cases) to allow for an admin user to bypass the warning since you *hope* they know what they're doing.

This like any new feature would take a little time to develop though. But possibly in the long run less time than spent on restorations.

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[John Ansorge]

I have had an instructor do this as well. 

 

I suggest that the first thing to do is to remove the fairly prominent “Delete Topic” button that is available on the topic page.  As Christina points out, it’s very prominent and since I think most users still don’t understand the distinction between “Topic” and “Conversation” it is just very enticing.  Topics could still be deleted “the old way” by going into Topic Settings and deleting there, or by clicking “Delete Topic” on the Forums home page.  It think it’s clearer in those places what exactly is being deleted. 

 

Does anyone else think that delete operation needs such prominent placement?  Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think users need it to be “easy” to delete topics.

 

John

[Christina Schwiebert]

I actually really like your suggestion of just getting rid of that button. My instructors tend to use the delete topic link on the Forums home page when they actually want to delete a topic. There's no confusion there as to what is being removed. But within the topic, with the checkboxes next to the conversations, it is not so apparent. How many ways does there need to be to delete a topic?

Christina

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Christina Schwiebert

Instructional Design and Distance Learning Coordinator

Northwest State Community College

cschw...@northweststate.edu

419-267-1428

 

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often" - Winston Churchill

 

"The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." - Abraham Lincoln

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This message and any attachment are confidential, intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may be protected under FERPA (http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/reg/ferpa/index.html). If you have received it by mistake, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify the sender and delete the message. You are hereby notified that any unauthorized use, copying or dissemination of any or all information contained in this message is prohibited.  Northwest State Community College and/or any part thereof shall not be liable for the message if altered, falsified, or in case of error in the recipient.

 

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[John Ansorge]

I think removing that “Delete Topic” button is the quick and nearly “free” way to solve the immediate problem, but I completely agree with everything you say Tiffany.

 

I think Forums could really, really use a full UX reworking ala GradebookNG and some of the exciting work that’s going on with other tools in the community right now.  It would make a great FARM project, but it would have lots of competition.

 

“Soft delete” would be great, too, but would need a good amount of dev work.

 

But if there’s support for getting rid of that “Delete Topic” button in the short term, I could file a Jira.  I could probably make a pull request to change it, too.

 

John

 

From: Tiffany Stull [mailto:tl...@virginia.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 12:09 PM
To: Christina Schwiebert <cschw...@northweststate.edu>; John Ansorge <anso...@ohsu.edu>
Cc: Matthew Jones <mat...@longsight.com>; gdoyle <gdo...@nd.edu>; Sakai Users Group <sakai...@apereo.org>
Subject: Re: [sakai-user] Re: Accidentally deleting forum topics

 

Hi all,

Better yet, would it be possible to implement a soft deletion for both forums and topics?  We've had instructors accidentally delete both topics and whole forums before; sometimes it can be tricky to track down the missing content and restore it because the instructor doesn't remember the name of the forum or topic.

If you could soft delete forums/topics/conversations and allow the users to restore them themselves for a limited time, it would reduce the risk of lost content, regardless of where the delete option is located.  The content isn't purged from the database immediately, anyway, as evidenced by our ability to restore it.

Christina, you bring up another good point about forums/topics/conversations...  The organization and terminology used in the Forums tool is not easy to understand, as evidenced by the need to explain it in detail in our help documentation on creating forums and topics.  Furthermore, the naming convention isn't consistent - conversations are also called threads in the link Move Threads.  Maybe conversations should just be called Threads everywhere, since that seems to be a more familiar term to most users?

Generally speaking, the Forums interface is pretty clunky, and has too many links needed to perform simple actions.  One example is the excessive number of links available/required to Grade forums/topics/conversations, including the following:

• To grade at the forum or topic level, multiple students:
  1. On the front page of the tool, to the right of every forum and topic, under the More link.
  2. Statistics & Grading > Statistics & Grading by Topic > Select a topic or forum
  3. If you don't have a gradebook item selected in either the Forum Settings or Topic Settings for whichever forum or topic you want to grade, you need to select a gradebook item before you get to the boxes to enter grades, OR click Grade to the right of a student's name and THEN select a gradebook item.
  4. Want to enter comments for students along with the grades?  Click another link to Show Comment boxes!
• To grade an individual student:
  1. Statistics & Grading > student's name
  2. On individual student's Grade screen, click either Previous Participant and Next Participant links to switch to a different student
  3. Click a topic > student's name
  4. Click a topic > conversation > Grade to the right of any student
  5. Click a topic > conversation > individual post > Grade
  6. And by the time you're done clicking any of the buttons above, you need to click ANOTHER Grade link to the right of a topic to actually grade it... if you haven't selected a gradebook item at the topic or forum level, you need to do that too before you get the text box to enter a grade!

Doing a print of our Help file on grading forums, it's 8 pages long!  Trying to explain the multiple navigation links in forums (just to travel between forums, topics, conversations, posts...) isn't much better.  It would be really nice if we could simplify the navigation in the tool on a whole.

Tiffany

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[John Ansorge]

Jira created: SAK-31941

 

I think this should be very easy to do, so even I can manage it.  After all, as this issue shows, it’s easier to delete things than to create them.

 

From: Tiffany Stull [mailto:tl...@virginia.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 1:47 PM
To: John Ansorge <anso...@ohsu.edu>; Christina Schwiebert <cschw...@northweststate.edu>
Cc: Matthew Jones <mat...@longsight.com>; gdoyle <gdo...@nd.edu>; Sakai Users Group <sakai...@apereo.org>
Subject: Re: [sakai-user] Re: Accidentally deleting forum topics

 

I should've included in my last email a +1 for removing the Delete Topic button - it's very confusing!

-Tiffany

[Karen McPhaul]

An enthusiastic +1 for removing the prominent “Delete topic” button.  As others have said, it’s confusing and not needed, as the same button (or link, I guess) exists on the main forum page, where its function is much clearer.

 

Karen

 

Karen McPhaul
Senior Director, Instructional Technologies

Durham Technical Community College
mcph...@durhamtech.edu
919-536-7200 ext 5903

[Greg Doyle]

I agree as well. Delete it (the button, not the Topic lol).

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Gregory V. Doyle

Associate Director-STEP

McGrath Institute for Church Life

University of Notre Dame

icl.nd.edu

(574) 631-0955 (direct)

364 Geddes Hall

Notre Dame IN 46556

[Neal Caidin]

It might not be a bad idea to add it to FARM.  It will have competition but it will also help the community prioritize over time (I hope :-) ).

Click on Sakai Enhancement ideas to add and then vote. 

Cheers

[Tiffany Stull]

I should've included in my last email a +1 for removing the Delete Topic button - it's very confusing!

-Tiffany

On 11/11/2016 4:44 PM, John Ansorge wrote:

[Tiffany Stull]

Hi all,

Better yet, would it be possible to implement a soft deletion for both forums and topics?  We've had instructors accidentally delete both topics and whole forums before; sometimes it can be tricky to track down the missing content and restore it because the instructor doesn't remember the name of the forum or topic.

If you could soft delete forums/topics/conversations and allow the users to restore them themselves for a limited time, it would reduce the risk of lost content, regardless of where the delete option is located.  The content isn't purged from the database immediately, anyway, as evidenced by our ability to restore it.

Christina, you bring up another good point about forums/topics/conversations...  The organization and terminology used in the Forums tool is not easy to understand, as evidenced by the need to explain it in detail in our help documentation on creating forums and topics.  Furthermore, the naming convention isn't consistent - conversations are also called threads in the link Move Threads.  Maybe conversations should just be called Threads everywhere, since that seems to be a more familiar term to most users?

Generally speaking, the Forums interface is pretty clunky, and has too many links needed to perform simple actions.  One example is the excessive number of links available/required to Grade forums/topics/conversations, including the following:

• To grade at the forum or topic level, multiple students:
  
1. On the front page of the tool, to the right of every forum and topic, under the More link.
2. Statistics & Grading > Statistics & Grading by Topic > Select a topic or forum
3. If you don't have a gradebook item selected in either the Forum Settings or Topic Settings for whichever forum or topic you want to grade, you need to select a gradebook item before you get to the boxes to enter grades, OR click Grade to the right of a student's name and THEN select a gradebook item.
4. Want to enter comments for students along with the grades?  Click another link to Show Comment boxes!
   
• To grade an individual student:
  
1. Statistics & Grading > student's name
2. On individual student's Grade screen, click either Previous Participant and Next Participant links to switch to a different student
   
3. Click a topic > student's name
4. Click a topic > conversation > Grade to the right of any student
5. Click a topic > conversation > individual post > Grade
   
6. And by the time you're done clicking any of the buttons above, you need to click ANOTHER Grade link to the right of a topic to actually grade it... if you haven't selected a gradebook item at the topic or forum level, you need to do that too before you get the text box to enter a grade!
   

Doing a print of our Help file on grading forums, it's 8 pages long!  Trying to explain the multiple navigation links in forums (just to travel between forums, topics, conversations, posts...) isn't much better.  It would be really nice if we could simplify the navigation in the tool on a whole.

Tiffany

On 11/11/2016 2:07 PM, Christina Schwiebert wrote:

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