Video CoP Meeting on Dec 4th, 2017 Monday, 3:00 PM ET

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Pankaj Agrawal

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Dec 4, 2017, 11:58:58 AM12/4/17
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Hi All,


This is an invite for the xAPI Video Community of Practice Meeting on Dec 4th, 2017 Monday, 3:00 PM ET.


Welcome to all of you and your friends.


Thanks,

Pankaj Agrawal
Working Group Leader
Video CoP
Founder, Next Software Solution

WhenMon Aug 7, 2017 3pm – 4pm Eastern Time
WhereHangouts on Air (https://www.nextsoftwaresolutions.com/VideoCoP)

Haag, Jason

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Dec 4, 2017, 7:37:46 PM12/4/17
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Hi Guys! Sorry I missed this today. Had to attend a family funeral service. I'm available to meet some other day/time this week or next if you want to sync up on the video profile article / promotion.

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Jason Haag
Advanced Distributed Learning (ADL) Initiative
http://www.adlnet.gov
Twitter: @ADL_Initiative
Mobile: 850-471-1300

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Jonathan Kevan

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Dec 4, 2017, 7:56:33 PM12/4/17
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Hey Jason,

Sorry to hear that. Hope you are doing okay.

Few things came out of the meeting:
1) I reviewed my group's progress on H5P. We have a partial implementation of the video profile complete and awaiting review from their core team. Lots of little issues, but the big one has to do with the 'completed' verb. They had the verb already and used it to define reaching the end of the video and they preferred not to change its meaning. I created a new verb called 'finished' to represent 'watched all of the video'. It's not ideal, but what we did. Some alternative options were discussed in the meeting. We can review next month.

2) Pablo Caballero joined the video profile meeting and mentioned he was building his own xAPI video collection tool using video.js. After he made some progress he found out about the Video CoP's tool. He is going to share what he liked about each of our implementations and where he saw issues. He and several other meeting participants mentioned reviewing that information together at the next meeting.

Considering the TAG due date, next week would be a better time for me to meet on a video profile article. Maybe Wednesday or Thursday?

- Jon

Jonathan Kevan
R&D Coordinator, Distance Course Design & Consulting (DCDC)
College of Education, University of Hawai‘i at Manoa
1776 University Avenue, Wist 245, Honolulu, Hawai‘i 96822
Web: dcdc.coe.hawaii.edu

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Dennis Hall

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Dec 5, 2017, 8:41:11 AM12/5/17
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Hi Johnathon:

 

There are many of us who have already developed products that perform an action based on the “completed” status of H5P interactions (including the interactive video).

My vote would also support not changing this since it is a “staple” verb implemented in the many vendor supplied products and is a pretty standard verb across xAPI implementations.

 

If a vendor wants to write a statement indicating “watched all of the video” that verb can be masked in some products, yet still map to the actual verbs URL so the LRS record become more readable, but the verb would still actually remain “completed”.

 

Best Regards,

Dennis Hall

 

From: Jonathan Kevan [mailto:jke...@hawaii.edu]
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 19:56
To: Haag, Jason; Pankaj Agrawal
Cc: xapi-vi...@googlegroups.com; <xapi...@adlnet.gov>; xapi-pro...@adlnet.gov
Subject: Re[2]: Video CoP Meeting on Dec 4th, 2017 Monday, 3:00 PM ET

 

Hey Jason,

 

Sorry to hear that. Hope you are doing okay.

 

Few things came out of the meeting:

1) I reviewed my group's progress on H5P. We have a partial implementation of the video profile complete and awaiting review from their core team. Lots of little issues, but the big one has to do with the 'completed' verb. They had the verb already and used it to define reaching the end of the video and they preferred not to change its meaning. I created a new verb called 'finished' to represent 'watched all of the video'. It's not ideal, but what we did. Some alternative options were discussed in the meeting. We can review next month.

 

2) Pablo Caballero joined the video profile meeting and mentioned he was building his own xAPI video collection tool using video.js. After he made some progress he found out about the Video CoP's tool. He is going to share what he liked about each of our implementations and where he saw issues. He and several other meeting participants mentioned reviewing that information together at the next meeting.

 

Considering the TAG due date, next week would be a better time for me to meet on a video profile article. Maybe Wednesday or Thursday?

 

- Jon

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Jason Haag

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Dec 5, 2017, 9:27:30 AM12/5/17
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Sometime next week would be fine with me. 

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Pankaj Agrawal

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Dec 5, 2017, 9:31:58 AM12/5/17
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After reading the message from Jon and Dennis, I believe there is one possibility we can discuss if it makes useful sense. 

So,
Current status quo of Video Profile: 
Completed verb means watching the entire video. This is good in a way that the verb has a clear meaning without needing to look at details. 

Current status quo of H5P and probably other similar implementations:
Completed verb means reaching the end of the video. 

Possible Solution by way of modification in Video Profile
We can "probably" expand the scope of completed verb in Video Profile context. And allow the AP to decide when a completed verb is send. 
Completed verb will no longer mean “watched all of the video”
Completed verb must have progress and played-segments extensions. So, statement clearly tells what percentage of video is actually watched. 
We do need to discourage sending completed verb for reaching the end of the video. 

Possible risks I can think of is: 
Everyone continues to use completed for reaching the end of the video. 

Possible advantages I can think of is: 
If after a real world trial if we find that 10% of users are stuck at 99.8% progress and they have no idea why the video is not completed. An AP can adjust completion criterion to something like 99% progress. [This is just an asumed scenario]


Jason/Jon, I am also fine meeting next week after Tuesday. 

Pankaj 

Sent: 12/4/2017 2:37:04 PM

Subject: Re: Video CoP Meeting on Dec 4th, 2017 Monday, 3:00 PM ET

 

Hi Guys! Sorry I missed this today. Had to attend a family funeral service. I'm available to meet some other day/time this week or next if you want to sync up on the video profile article / promotion.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Haag
Advanced Distributed Learning (ADL) Initiative
http://www.adlnet.gov
Twitter: @ADL_Initiative
Mobile: 850-471-1300

 

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Pankaj Agrawal <pankaj....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

 

This is an invite for the xAPI Video Community of Practice Meeting on Dec 4th, 2017 Monday, 3:00 PM ET.

 

Welcome to all of you and your friends.

 

Thanks,

Pankaj Agrawal
Working Group Leader
Video CoP
Founder, Next Software Solution

When

Mon Aug 7, 2017 3pm – 4pm Eastern Time

Where

Hangouts on Air (https://www.nextsoftwaresolutions.com/VideoCoP)

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Jonathan Kevan

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Dec 5, 2017, 3:57:08 PM12/5/17
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Thanks for the feedback Dennis! I am open to Pankaj's suggestion. Maybe we can discuss more at the next meeting?

Either way, our group has already submitted the pull request and I don't think we have the time to make additional changes in the near future. I think we are going to be stuck with 'Finished' for now.

- Jon

Jason Haag

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Jan 30, 2018, 12:41:13 PM1/30/18
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Hi Video CoP,

Sorry for just not following up on this. Were any decisions made at the last meeting in regards to gaining some agreement about "completed" and it's use in the Video Profile vs. H5P implementations? 

Are there meeting minutes or a recording posted anywhere?

I would like to resolve this soon. I would also like to see if anyone is interested in the xAPI cohort efforts (starting this week).

I would like to facilitate a group that uses the video profile. But we really need to iron this out soon.

Here are some ideas for options (if you haven't already resolved it):
  1. Allow H5PM to implement their own "Profile" where completed means it reached the end. They would define these rules in their profile, based on the xAPI profile spec. Profiles can co-exist. I don't think there must be one video profile to rule them all as there are many different types of players out there that might influence one's implementation.   

  2. Accomodate H5PM community by updating the Video Profile to use some other verb to be set once 100% of the played segments of a video have been achieved. I don't like the verb "watched" or "viewed" because there's no guarantee they actually watched or viewed all of it just because the play button was clicked; also because the user might be visually impaired. Some options might be "observed" or "concluded". 

  3. Update the profile to set the Result object completed property to true (complete:true) with a terminated statement only when 100% of played segments have been achieved and the video has ended. This might be the easiest and require the least amount of change from everyone. 
We should try to find a middle ground where we all can adapt and support the best decision for implementing videos and learning analytics for video going forward. Does the H5P community plan to adopt the other parts of the Video profile we've been working on? Or is there just a fuss because we are thinking about how "completed" is being used differently? 

Regards,

J Haag

Pankaj 

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Jonathan Kevan

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Jan 30, 2018, 2:04:19 PM1/30/18
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Hey Jason!

I had been sick for awhile and unfortunately have been missing Video CoP meetings so I can't answer to what's been discussed there. I can give you an update on H5P though and I have cc'd Pål Jørgensen from H5P who has been talking to us through GitHub.

We submitted a PR late last year with updates to H5P to include as much of the video profile as we felt we could get in. Information is a bit all over the place.. but here are some relevant links:

Discussion: 

Pull Requests:
https://github.com/h5p/h5p-video/pull/17 <-- detail here on what was implemented

JIRA Ticket:


We know that our PRs were reviewed for H5P's next sprint, but it looks like they wont be getting to it yet. We are still waiting on more information on that and how we can be of assistance.

Regarding your ideas:
1) I am open to them having their own profile. The default action here is they are going to have their own 'profile' anyway. Can just make it official.
2) Given that there hasn't been a lot of opportunity for people to adopt this profile yet.. I am inclined to go with this approach. It's early enough for us to pretty safely make verb adjustments. We should bring Jessie Chuang into the conversation as well then since I think she has some of her own video verbs. We can do a little bit of aligning.
3) I don't personally think reaching the end of the video is an appropriate 'result' from an instructional design perspective. So this would be my least favorite choice.

Here is a comment from Pal about the 'completed' event:
'Since there are sites out there relying on the completed event, we don't wanna remove it. But if you want, you can add the "ended" event.

We are planning to add functionality that lets the author have more control over what e.g. "completed" means, but we do not have an ETA for that yet.'


I am pretty sure by 'remove it' he meant 'change its meaning', which is what we were asking. We decided to implement 'ended' as 'played the entire video' because we need to make a decision and get our PR in. Wasn't in love with the word though. Since our PR has been backlogged again I am fine with making adjustments like changing to one of Jason's suggestion. My biggest concern is we need this working for a course we have being delivered in fall and it seems like the H5P group is pretty busy.

I am interested in the xAPI cohort efforts. Let me know what's up!

Jason Haag

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Jan 31, 2018, 7:45:26 AM1/31/18
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Thanks Jonathan! Just to clarify, #3 would propose using result obect's complete property ONLY when 100% of the played segments had been calculated, per the recent code addition by Pankaj. 

Pankaj Agrawal

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Jan 31, 2018, 8:35:25 AM1/31/18
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Hi Jason,

I haven't been able to post meeting minutes. Will try to do it soon. 

We did not discuss the H5P completion issue during last meeting, but would be good to discuss specially if few people interested in H5P are available. 

Do let me know what you plan with respect to Video Profile for the cohort, I would be happy to help where possible. 

Jason, did you read/consider the suggestion I had made, you can read them here in the same email thread. 

We can also possible add one alternative solution, i.e. sending two completed statements: 
1. Send a completed statement at any point as per the AP's or implementers' decision.  
    - This will mean that the user completed the video activity. 
    - So, if H5P says reaching the end of video is completed, so be it. And if a faculty of a XYZ University wants the activity to complete when 70% of video is watched, so be it. They have that flexibility. 

2. Require another completed statement when all parts of video has been completed. This one will have progress = 1. 
    - This statement will mean that the user completed the video activity, but also watched all parts of the video.  

I am assuming that we will soon get requests from implementers that they want the activity to complete if the user has watched X% of video. And, I am trying to solve this additional assumed requirement along with the H5P issue with this suggestion. 

Pankaj

Andrew Downes

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Feb 2, 2018, 7:11:38 AM2/2/18
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I'd warn against having two events that use the same verb with different meanings of "completed". 

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Arranging a time for a call? For Europe timezones I'm free at 11am-noon GMT most days. For US timezones times before 2pm central are best but I'm often busy so please suggest a few times. 

Pankaj Agrawal

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Feb 2, 2018, 8:25:24 AM2/2/18
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It is not necessarily two different meanings. It's just indicating level of completion. 
e.g. like you passed with 70% and then you continued to progress and you passed with 100%. 
similarly you complete with 70% and you continued to complete with 100%. 


Andrew Downes
Skype: mrandrewdownes 
Twitter: @mrdownes

Andrew Downes

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Feb 2, 2018, 8:42:31 AM2/2/18
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In that case the 2nd event is not recording that you completed, because you'd already completed as marked by the first event. It's recording that you made additional progress. 

The same issue would exist with sending passed multiple times with different scores - that's likely to be confused with two separate passes with different scores. I wouldn't recommend that approach. 

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Pankaj Agrawal <pankaj....@gmail.com> wrote:
It is not necessarily two different meanings. It's just indicating level of completion. 
e.g. like you passed with 70% and then you continued to progress and you passed with 100%. 
similarly you complete with 70% and you continued to complete with 100%. 




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Andrew Downes
Skype: mrandrewdownes 
Twitter: @mrdownes

Pankaj Agrawal

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Feb 2, 2018, 8:54:30 AM2/2/18
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Two separate completions or passes will have separate registration id and separate session id. If it is for one, it will either have same registration id, and if registration id is not there, it will have same session id. So, that is easy to differentiate. 

In practice I have seen multiple completions being sent by Articulate content if configured to send completion based on number of slides. 

What happens with Articulate is if you configure a content to complete on say for example 8 out of 10 slides. It sends one completion on 8th slide, then on 9th slide and again on 10th slide. 

Let me know if you have another suggestion.

Chris Kaplan

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Feb 2, 2018, 9:00:32 AM2/2/18
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Hi all,

I’d like to suggest a single completion that include a value attribute (e.g percent or time) and let the user system interpret the data based on their own business rules.

Regards,

Chris
Pankaj 

Sent: 12/4/2017 2:37:04 PM

Subject: Re: Video CoP Meeting on Dec 4th, 2017 Monday, 3:00 PM ET

 

Hi Guys! Sorry I missed this today. Had to attend a family funeral service. I'm available to meet some other day/time this week or next if you want to sync up on the video profile article / promotion.


-------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Haag
Advanced Distributed Learning (ADL) Initiative
http://www.adlnet.gov
Twitter: @ADL_Initiative
Mobile: 850-471-1300

 

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Pankaj Agrawal <pankaj....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

 

This is an invite for the xAPI Video Community of Practice Meeting on Dec 4th, 2017 Monday, 3:00 PM ET.

 

Welcome to all of you and your friends.

 

Thanks,

Pankaj Agrawal
Working Group Leader
Video CoP
Founder, Next Software Solution

When

Mon Aug 7, 2017 3pm – 4pm Eastern Time

Where

Hangouts on Air (https://www.nextsoftwaresolutions.com/VideoCoP)

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