David Barton on Thomas Jefferson

Showing 1-24 of 24 messages
David Barton on Thomas Jefferson Shaun 7/31/12 9:14 AM
Listers,
Apparently right wing pseudo historian David Barton is claiming in his latest book on Thomas Jefferson that he was influenced by Restorationists in and around Charlottesville, VA.  Has anyone on the list read this book?  Is there any credible evidence for such a position?  Or is this just another one of those "Lincoln was secretly baptized by a Christian" stories?

Shaun Casey

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.  Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Wesley Theological Seminary. Finally, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses.  The Seminary accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson Tom Olbricht 7/31/12 9:44 AM


Shaun,

I don't know anything about Barton (Google him and you find much about his
book) but there is an old claim that Jefferson was influenced by James
O'Kelly.  However, this might be I'm sure O'Kelly would not have agreed with
Jefferson's truncated version of the NT and many other aspects of his views.
So this may be a later effort at name's dropping to establish some sort of
credibility on MacClenny's part.  But Jefferson was obviously more
comfortable with religion minus the creeds and little emphasis on the
miracles.  But I think it's doubtful that he came to these views because of
O'Kelly or any other restorationist.  Jefferson is clearly an Enlightenment
Deist.

�W. E. MacClenny, The Life of Rev. James O'Kelly and the Early History of
the Christian Church in the South, Raleigh, Va.: Edwards and Broughton
Printing Company, 1910

It is said that O'Kelly's wife would see at times that he was restless, and
she would say to him: "Go on and preach, I will attend to home." He would
make tours of the early Christian churches, and often preach at private
houses when there was no church convenient, and one writer adds that he
would often preach for three hours at a time. Often times he would define
his plan of Church government. He would start from his home and visit all
the churches from there to Petersburg, Virginia; and all those east of that
town and Richmond, on what is known as the "Southside" of Virginia, as the
churches have always been somewhat numerous in that section. Occasionally he
would go up in the mountains, and sometimes as far as Washington, D. C.

It was said that he was an intimate friend of Thomas Jefferson, and as Mr.
Jefferson was the leader of Republican ideas in Virginia in politics, and
Mr. O'Kelly [171] in religious thought, it is not strange that they should
have been warm friends, and very congenial.

It is highly probable, that what occurred at a later period, that he visited
Mr. Jefferson at Monticello on his preaching tours. The story goes thus:

  "On one occasion Mr. O'Kelly visited Mr. Jefferson in Washington. The
great statesman, knowing of the preacher's ability, obtained the use of the
hall of the House of Representatives and invited Mr. O'Kelly to preach. The
invitation was, after some consideration accepted, but to the chagrin of the
distinguished host, the preacher fell far below Mr. Jefferson's expectation.
Believing this failure did his friend great injustice, the great political
leader insisted on a second effort. Mr. O'Kelly agreed. The appointment was
again made, and the people urged to give him another hearing. They did hear
him again, and were abundantly repaid, for Mr. O'Kelly preached one of the
great sermons of his life, and the host was the most delighted man in the
audience.   When he had finished Mr. Jefferson arose with tears in his eyes,
and said, that while he was no preacher, in his opinion James O'Kelly was on
of the greatest preachers living.

"Mr. Jefferson's friendship for Mr. O'Kelly was responsible for the charge
that this eminent statesman was an infidel. To this day the facts are but
little know to the public, but they are well authenticated.  It is known
that the charge was laid against Mr. Jefferson, but the cause and the
injustice of the charge are little known. Mr. O'Kelly's leadership in [172]
the session from the Methodist Episcopal Church had made for him many strong
enemies, who called him an infidel because of his supposed unfaithfulness to
his church.   His enemies pressed this charge against him without specifying
it's nature, till the impression gained credence that he was an infidel to
the Christian faith.

"When Mr. Jefferson boldly showed his friendship for Mr. O'Kelly, it was
construed by the enemies of the latter as sympathy for him in his work as a
reformer, and at once Mr. Jefferson was charged with being an infidel. His
political enemies began to proclaim the charge against him in their efforts
to defeat him for the presidency, and in a short time the rumor was
generally current among the people. So intense was the feeling thus
engendered against him, that in some places, notably in Pennsylvania, the
report was believed and it was talked among the people that if Mr. Jefferson
should be elected President, he would order all Bibles to be burned
throughout the land. An instance well authenticate, is reported of a
Christian mother, who, influenced by this talk against him, on hearing that
Mr. Jefferson had been elected President, took her Bible and hid it away,
declaring that the infidel President should never burn her Bible. There is
good reason to believe that this is the origin of the charge of infidelity
against Thomas Jefferson, and though having no foundation, many well
informed people are not sure, even to this day, that he was not indeed an
enemy to the Christian faith. Of course [173] neither James O'Kelly, nor
Thomas Jefferson was an infidel"

  (This was given the writer by Dr. J. P. Barret, editor of the Herald of
Gospel Liberty, Dayton, O.)




Tom Olbricht
14 Beaver Dam Road
South Berwick, Maine 03908
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson royce 7/31/12 10:07 AM
Wow! What a great quote, Tom. If nothing else, it leapfrogs things
said and written in the interim and establishes the specific claim
in/around 1910 (and perhaps even earlier).

I suspect those old-timers knew far more about each other than seems
possible to many of us, all of whom are scattered around across the
continent (and world) and so separated by sectarian twists and
prejudices. Once upon a time, a fellow could apparently travel through
town and noise of his spurs brought a crowd. Now, even the sound of a
shotgun being cocked is ineffective.

God help us.

rpb
San Bernardino
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson Shaun 7/31/12 10:09 AM
Tom,
This is interesting.  Do you think this account is trustworthy?

I know Barton all too well.  I had the distinct pleasure of debating him during the presidential campaign.  He rates very high on the fruitcake index.  I had fun and he was pretty unhappy with me by the end of our debate.  He had never met a Democrat Campbellite.  I don't think I converted him!

Shaun
RE: David Barton on Thomas Jefferson Wilson, John 7/31/12 10:17 AM
Shawn:

An interesting question!  In tracing one of my lines of ancestry, the Randolphs of VA (maybe our moderators, too--who knows?) I gathered the following information:

Thomas Jefferson's mother was a Randolph and his family and "my" Randolphs were distantly related.  They were also neighbors.  Jefferson frequently attended the Albemarle Baptist Church-particularly the "business meetings" where church matters were discussed and decided.  This experience seems to have had considerable influence on his political views.   Thomas F. Curtis, in his Progress of Baptist Principles (1856) says, "There was a small Baptist Church which held its monthly meetings for business at a short distance from Mr. Jefferson's house, eight or ten years before the American Revolution. Mr. Jefferson attended these meetings for several months in succession. The pastor, Andrew Tribble, was once invited to dine with Jefferson at Monticello.  Tribble asked him how he was pleased with their Church government. Mr. Jefferson replied, that it struck him with great force and had interested him much, that he considered it the only form of true democracy then existing in the world, and had concluded that it would be the best plan of government for the American colonies. This was several years before the Declaration of Independence."  Curtis says he learned this from Mrs. Madison, wife of the fourth President of the United States, "who herself had freely conversed with Jefferson on the subject, and that her remembrance of these conversations was 'distinct,' he 'always declaring that it was a Baptist Church from which these views were gathered.'"  He referred to the church as a model for a republic."  

The founding minister of the church, William Woods, at Jefferson's request, even ran for and won a seat in the state assembly for one term.  When Jefferson returned to private life, in 1809 (long after the Randolphs and Gentrys had left for the frontier), he wrote a warm letter to the church. "We have acted together from the origin to the end of a memorable Revolution," he said, "and we have contributed each in the line allotted to us our endeavors to render its issues a permanent blessing to our country."
 
The relationship with Jefferson extended beyond the church.  Clinton Haggard noted that Jefferson was a neighbor of Nathaniel Haggard.  Among Nathaniel's sons were Henry Haggard, who married Dorothy Randolph, daughter of my ancestor Henry Randolph and sister of James Randolph I, and David Haggard.  The latter was a carpenter and installed the French windows in Jefferson's home Monticello.  The Haggards, of course, have their place in Restoration Movement history and may be the connection you have noted.  Some of the Randolphs became leaders and associates of Campbell after they arrived on the Frontier, though their main impact has to do with the history of the Baptists.

    --John Wilson

-----Original Message-----
From: CASEY, SHAUN [mailto:sca...@wesleyseminary.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:15 AM
To: stone-c...@acu.edu
Subject: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson

Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson Tom Olbricht 7/31/12 11:55 AM

Shaun,

I have already reflected some on the context and purpose of MacClenny's
book.  I think it is a good work.  I presume some items might be embellished
for a purpose but I expect some core of the history is valid, for example,
the contact of O'Kelly with Jefferson.

MacClenny cites Barrett.  In the early 1960s I examined considerable
holdings in the Congregational Historical Library in Boston.  Since the
Christian Connexion (about 1870 merger of the remnants of the Jones/Smith,
O'Kelly, and churches of the Stone movement that did not go with the 1832
merger) merged with the Congregational Church in 1931 to form the
Congregational-Christian Church the Congregational Historical Library had
several materials from the Connexion.  Another major repository is at Elon
College.

Anyway, several small booklets written by Barrett about people in the
Connexion were in the Library.  As far as I could tell Barrett was a capable
and responsible historian.  So I presume he was not a Reverend Weems,
inventing the hacked down young Washington cherry tree.

He also produced a volume on the Centennial of the Herald of Gospel Liberty
which provides various insights into the 100 year history of the journal
first published in 1808.


It would be interesting to try to verify the appearance of O'Kelly in the
Thomas Jefferson writings and archives.  I'm sure that could be done should
anyone with adequate expertise be so inclined.



Tom Olbricht
14 Beaver Dam Road
South Berwick, Maine 03908
----- Original Message -----
From: "CASEY, SHAUN" <sca...@wesleyseminary.edu>
To: <stone-c...@acu.edu>
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson Hugh Fulford 7/31/12 12:37 PM
Of James O'Kelly, P. J. Kernodle, Secretary of the Southern Christian Convention, wrote:

"He

was the compeer and friend of Patrick Henry, whose name he mentions in his Apology, and also the friend of Thomas Jefferson by whom he was in after years received with distinguished recognition in the halls of the National Legislature, and so he may well be said to have been rocked in the cradle of civil and religious liberty. Living in an age when liberty was the key to thought, and among men whose lives were devoted to free institutions, what other course could the mind of this great religious teacher have taken?" (Lives of Christian Ministers, Richmond, VA, The Central Publishing Co, 1909, p. 31).  This book contains tributes to 200 Christian ministers.  The first two chapters are about James O'Kelly and Rice Haggard. 
Hugh Fulford
----- Original Message -----
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson Wayne Newland 7/31/12 2:25 PM
Another RM connection to Jefferson:  James T. Barclay, first missionary of the ACMS (to Jerusalem -- 1851-54; 1858-62) purchased and lived in Montecello for a time.  Perhaps others know the dates.  Did he practice as a physician while there?
 
Blessings!!   win
Large Famiies Tom Olbricht 8/2/12 10:31 AM

Perhaps this liven the list.  We haven't talked about how large families in
the past contributed to the growth of the Restoration Movement.

Just this morning I found a list of the children of my great-great-great
Alabama grandparents--Buck and Amy Hester.  My great-great-grandmother Judy
Hester is No. 5 on the list below.  She died in 1899 and is buried in
Mammoth Spring, Arkansas.

Not all of these children by any means became restorationists but several of
their descendents did.








            William "Buck" Hester Family
            William "Buck" HESTER was born 27 January 1780, and his wife,
Amy MALONE, was born 17 March 1789. They both were born and married in North
Carolina - their marriage having occurred on 18 October 1805 in Person
County, North Carolina.

            In the spring of 1818, Buck and his oldest son Roling, came to
Franklin County, Alabama and settled about five or six miles east of
Russellville near Tharp Springs. They built a log cabin, cleared a few acres
of land, raised a small crop of corn, and then in the fall of that same year
went back to North Carolina on their ox cart after the rest of the family.

            Buck HESTER and his wife Amy had a large family of eight boys
and eight girls. They are as follows:

              1.. Roling HESTER Born: 23 Jan 1807 North Carolina, Married:
Lucendy RICHARDSON 11 Dec 1828, Died: 19 Jul 1882
              2.. Nancy HESTER Born: 11 Oct 1808 North Carolina, Married: #1
John RICHARDSON 3 Jan 1826, #2 John RICHARDSON (date unknown), Died: ?
              3.. John HESTER Born: 16 Jul 1810 North Carolina, Married:
Sarah BOWEN 24 Dec 1831
              4.. Polley HESTER Born: 24 Jul 1812 North Carolina, Married:
Mr. BOURLAND 25 Feb 1839, Died: ?
              5.. Judy HESTER Born: 13 Jun 1814 North Carolina, Married:
Simeon WATES 2 Jan 1831, Died: ?
              6.. Salley HESTER Born: 26 Mar 1816 North Carolina, Married:
Linsey MOORE 25 Dec 1832, Died: ?
              7.. William H. HESTER Born: 25 Mar 1818 North Carolina,
Married: Milissia LINDSEY 20 Sep 1840, Died: ?
              8.. Robert B. HESTER Born: 20 Dec 1819 Probably Franklin Co.
Alabama, Married: #1 Sarah WILLIAMS (date unknown), #2 -------- WILLIAMS (a
sister, no date), Died: ?
              9.. Chesley B. HESTER Born: 24 Jun 1822 Franklin County,
Alabama, Married: Salley RICKARD 25 Jul 1844, Died: ?
              10.. Amy Penie HESTER Born: 12 Jan 1824 Franklin County,
Alabama, Married: Levi RICKARD or RIKARD 18 Feb 1841 Ala, Died: 1901/1902
              11.. Semirah HESTER Born: 8 Dec 1825 Franklin County, Alabama,
Married: Henry RICKARD 18 Feb 1841, Died: ?
              12.. Pertheny HESTER Born: 25 Jul 1827 Franklin County,
Alabama, Married: John (Pump) Pomfret 7 Nov 1844, Died: ?
              13.. Huldah HESTER Born: 31 Mar 1829 Franklin County, Alabama,
Married: John Carioli RICKARD 6 Mar 1845, Died: 4 Aug 1893
              14.. Jackson HESTER Born: 22 Feb 1831 Franklin County,
Alabama, Died: ?
              15.. Hudson G. HESTER Born: 5 Sep 1833 Franklin County,
Alabama, Married: Catherine THORN (date unknown), Died: 14 Feb 1866
              16.. Lucas N. HESTER Born: 30 Jul 1835 Franklin County,
Alabama, Married: Martha ELLEGE (date unknown), Died: ?
            The following is the family of Roling HESTER, oldest son of Buck
HESTER, and his wife Lucendy RICHARDSON:

              1.. William Carroll HESTER Born: 14 Oct 1829, Married: Jane
BOLTON
              2.. John Chess HESTER Born: 28 May 1832, Married: Mary Ann
KING
              3.. James Goodloe HESTER Born: 26 (May?) 1833, Never married
              4.. Mary Ellender HESTER Born: 22 Aug 1838, Married: Richard
Green MALONE (grandson of John MALONE and Anne BLACKWELL - Amy MALONE's
parents)
              5.. Roling Benton HESTER Born: 20 May 1840, Married: #1 Welthy
MALONE (grand daughter of John MALONE and Anne BLACKWELL - Amy MALONE's
parents), Married: #2 Eva MALONE (grand daughter of John MALONE and Anne
BLACKWELL - Amy MALONE's parents), Married: #3 -------- CANTRELL, Married:
#4 Mahaley STONE
              6.. Starling (R?) HESTER Born: 9 Aug 1842, Married: Fannie
WINDOM
              7.. Wiley R. HESTER Born: 25 Jul 1844, Married: Mourn
Christiny THOMPSON
              8.. Obituary of Wiley R. HESTER
              9.. Nancy L. HESTER Born: 26 Sep 1846, Married: Sidney KING
              10.. Robert M. HESTER Born: 26 Aug 1848, Married: #1 Huldah
MALONE (grand daughter of John MALONE and Anne BLACKWELL - Amy MALONE's
parents), Married: #2 Mattie WARNICK, Married: #3 Susie LEE
            Transcript of the Family Bible
            This Bible is currently owned by Beatrice Hendrix, Russellville,
Alabama. The family records were copied by A. Badle Hester on May 24, 1977.
Futher extraction by Mary Elle Ahlstrom in March 1978, with original
document spelling and wording retained. Transmitted via e-mail on September
22, 1996 byRobert L. Williams to Richard Prince, former County Coordinator.

            Will of Robert Hester
            This will, dated June 1827, was copied from the Person County,
North Carolina, Will Book 10, page 328.

            Deeds of gift from Robert Hester to his grandchildren

            William Carroll Hester's Civil War letter


--------------------------------------------------------------------

            Information provided byRobert L. Williams




            Resources
                  Home

                  Menu
                  What's New



            Search
            Search the Franklin County Archives at ALGenWeb
            Search the Franklin County Tombstone Project

           Search this site powered by FreeFind
                   Please note: This search will locate your surname(s) on
any page that is part of this site but does not cover pages that are
"offsite," such as the Alabama Archives for Franklin County or the Tombstone
Project for Franklin County. You will need to search these databases
individually below



            Search the Franklin County Message Board






                  Franklin County, AL Message Board


           Search the Franklin County Mailing List




                  Franklin County, AL Mailing List











      http://www.graphicsbycarla.com/



      Edited with Arachnophilia
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Hugh Fulford 8/2/12 11:51 AM
Tom:
 
The Hester name and the Rickard name (into whom some of the Hesters married) are still prominent names in churches of Christ in northwest Alabama.  A Mrs. Hester taught elementary grades at Mars Hill Bible School for many yrs.  The Srygley family from that same general area was quite large and produced F. D. and F. B.  The Nichols family, further south, produced Gus and his sizeable family, including three preacher sons and three preacher sons-in-law.  The Black family (same general area as Nichols) produced W. A., V. P., and Plato Black, all preachers.  Then there was a large family of Randolphs in that part of Alabama that played a significant role in the RM in Alabama in the early days of the movement and produced several preachers.  In more recent times (1940s-50s) Ralph and Ruby Snell (Ralph the long-time principal/president of Mars Hill Bible School) had ten children, many of whom have served/ continue to serve as teachers, ministers, elders in churches of Christ and as teachers in Christian schools. 
 
Hugh Fulford
----- Original Message -----
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Tom Olbricht 8/2/12 12:08 PM
Thanks, Hugh.
 
I'm trying to find out how Sam Hester of FHU is related if he is.   I understand from Larry Whitehead that Sam's family roots are Franklin County, Al.
 
Pursuing the large family farther my great Grandparents John Moody and Amy Athem Waits Taylor had 13 children and 68 grand children.
John and Amy Athem moved to the area of Thayer, MO and Mammoth Spring, AR in 1869 and all their children born in Alabama came along.
All of these 68 grandchildren were raised in Churches of Christ and most of them were baptized.
 
As you know one of Ralph Snell's grandsons was or is stationed at the Portsmouth, NH Naval Base near here.  His parents have visited our Dover, NH congregation twice.
 
Tom Olbricht
14 Beaver Dam Road
South Berwick, Maine 03908
----- Original Message -----
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Hugh Fulford 8/2/12 12:41 PM
Samuel (Sam) Edward Hester was born in Leighton, AL (Colbert County), northeast of Russellville (Franklin County) in 1946 (PoT, 4), but his family's roots may very well be in Franklin County.  He is married to Phyllis Gardner, daughter of E. Claude Gardner, former long-time president of Freed-Hardeman University. 
 
Hugh Fulford
----- Original Message -----
RE: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Phillip Morrison 8/2/12 1:03 PM
Tom,

I'm glad you have such a rich RM heritage. Unfortunately, my history doesn't
go back so far. My mother, as best I can discover, was the first in her
family to be a member of the CoC. None of her siblings were, and most were
non-religious. My father and one of his sisters were the first and only
members of the CoC until my generation.

This fits with some recent pondering about the success or lack of success of
our evangelistic and mission efforts throughout S-C history. Strangely, I
began wondering about that two or three months ago when I read Instant City,
a book by Steve Inskeep, co-host of NPR's Morning Edition. As he traces the
growth of Karachi, Pakistan from a city of 400 thousand half a century ago
to its present size of more than 13 million, he describes poverty,
government corruption, Muslim extremism, and other barriers to building a
workable city. It occurred to me that I didn't have a clue how to approach
such a city with a workable mission or evangelistic strategy. Those thoughts
have reached a climax this week as I have thought about Eric Masih, a
Pakistani supported  in a mission work in Lahore by the Woodmont Hills
church in Nashville for more than 20 years, who will be at WH Sunday for the
first time in 18 years. He is a fine man who has done a good work under the
mission model in place. Conversions have been few, but that may the best
anybody can do in that environment.

In my lifetime, foreign mission work seems to have had its greatest success
in the aftermath of WWII. Domestic evangelism seems to have been most
successful in the earliest days of the RM (not in my lifetime!), during and
after WWII, and in the days when campus evangelism was so productive.

Though I am no longer in active ministry and am quite out of touch, I have
the impression that our churches have largely lost their evangelistic
fervor. Not too many decades ago, medium to large size congregations
considered a hundred baptisms a year a kind of standard to shoot for, but
I'm not hearing that any more. I certainly rejoiced when our four children
and our twelve grandchildren were baptized but, given the smaller size of
families today as compared to those Tom mentioned, is baptizing members'
children going to be enough to sustain our churches? With mainline churches
losing ground in our own country, and secularism joining materialism as
controlling influences, do we have an evangelistic strategy that's adequate?
I understand that there are places where we can't go, and probably wouldn't
know how to proceed if we went, but I'm still burdened by the challenge.

I would be interested in your thoughts, and particularly in whatever you
might choose to share about the evangelistic efforts and results at the
church you attend.
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Tom Olbricht 8/2/12 5:13 PM
Phillip,

Your observations on changed attitudes toward and involvement in evangelism
are right on.  I have noticed these changes over the years.

I suppose I have noticed the changes in college students as much as
elsewhere.  In 1964 my brother started doing summer campaigns mostly in the
Northeast.  He recruited students from Harding, OCU, and FHU.  He could
easily recruit 20+ students a summer.  They normally reported 5 to 15
baptisms in each of the four campaigns of two weeks they held each summer.
Almost twenty years ago changes started.  Students became more and more
difficult to recruit.  In the past ten years he has had to struggle to get
as many as seven or eight.  This past summer he wondered if would have any
students.  Baptisms gradually declined.  Now they feel good if a baptism or
two occurs at a place.  Studies are possible to arrange, but do not result
in many baptisms.

So students have given up on outreach?  No not at all.  Spring breaks
campaigns abound in most on most of our college campuses but they are mostly
designed for help projects more than teaching the Gospel to those who have
not heard.  Let's Start Talking seems to recruit as many students as needed.
They are involved in evangelism in a sense, but more finding contacts
through an offer to teach English.

In the late 1970s at ACU I advised two ACU summer outreach groups which were
conceived and orchestrated by graduate students, "Good News Northeast" Bill
Porter, and Western States Outreach, Wayne Anderson.  But no such efforts
exist now.  Neither are students going off to a Stanley Shipp program for
one on one evangelism and church planting in St. Louis.  There are, of
course, however, various church planting efforts, but they do not involve
very many students still in college.

You ask about our congregation.  We have about 50 in attendance which is not
bad for this area.  For the first ten years we were here we baptized two or
three persons a year, but it was mostly our own teenagers though a few
others.  Our people are interested in reaching out and some get persons to
visit, but we don't have many conversions as a result.  We have had a man
for five years who does the preaching and he would like very much to teach
and baptize more people.  He tries mostly by contacts through offering Bible
correspondence courses, but at most we have baptized about a person a year
since he arrived.

Another phenomena is rather common these days from coast to coast is that
youngsters coming do not easily opt for baptism.  Fifty years ago parents
worried about children wanting to be baptized too young.  Today they worry
about them not making any move at all to be baptized.  It's sort of across
the board failure to make a radical commitment about anything, marriage,
baptism, etc.

The loss of energy for evangelism is therefore within our churches, and
without in smaller response in people open for making a change.

Tom Olbricht
14 Beaver Dam Road
South Berwick, Maine 03908
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Phillip Morrison 8/2/12 6:35 PM
Tom,

You are confirming my fears. Incidentally, though the salutation is to you, I really am interested in response from all, especially the emphasis on evangelism and number of baptisms. Dedicated Christian students still go on medical missions and do other great things, but not so much evangelism. As the world has changed and methods like door knocking and filmstrips have lost effectiveness we appear not to have found ways to keep pace. I hope it is only our methodology and not our enthusiasm that has lagged.

Thanks!

Phillip Morrison
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies cjdu...@cs.com 8/2/12 7:44 PM
In most big churches among us, baptisms have in effect become the province of youth ministers.  When we used to hear them on campus about such things, they often would say the time to baptize kids is between the ages of 6 and 13 (some will say 6 and 11) or "you will not get them at all".  Theologically, most of us were almost aghast at that, but it does seem to be a realistic viewpoint, at least given the contemporary methodology for evangelism.

C J Dull


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Olbricht <tom-ol...@comcast.net>
To: stone-campbell <stone-c...@acu.edu>
Sent: Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies

>
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies


> Tom,
>
> I'm glad you have such a rich RM heritage. Unfortunately, my history 
> doesn't
> go back so far. My mother, as best I can discover, was the first in her
> family to be a member of the CoC. None of her siblings were, and most were
> non-religious. My father and one of his sisters were the first and only
> members of the CoC until my generation.
>
> This fits with some recent pondering about the success or lack of success 
> of
> our evangelistic and mission efforts throughout S-C history. Strangely, I
> began wondering about that two or three months ago when I read Instant 
> City,
> a book by Steve Inskeep, co-host of NPR's Morning Edition. As he traces 
> the
> growth of Karachi, Pakistan from a city of 400 thousand half a century ago
> to its present size of more than 13 million, he describes poverty,
> government corruption, Muslim extremism, and other barriers to building a
> workable city. It occurred to me that I didn't have a clue how to approach
> such a city with a workable mission or evangelistic strategy. Those 
> thoughts
> have reached a climax this week as I have thought about Eric Masih, a
> Pakistani supported  in a mission work in Lahore by the Woodmont Hills
> church in Nashville for more than 20 years, who will be at WH Sunday for 
> the
> first time in 18 years. He is a fine man who has done a good work under 
> the
> mission model in place. Conversions have been few, but that may the best
> anybody can do in that environment.
>
> In my lifetime, foreign mission work seems to have had its greatest 
> success
> in the aftermath of WWII. Domestic evangelism seems to have been most
> successful in the earliest days of the RM (not in my lifetime!), during 
> and
> after WWII, and in the days when campus evangelism was so productive.
>
> Though I am no longer in active ministry and am quite out of touch, I have
> the impression that our churches have largely lost their evangelistic
> fervor. Not too many decades ago, medium to large size congregations
> considered a hundred baptisms a year a kind of standard to shoot for, but
> I'm not hearing that any more. I certainly rejoiced when our four children
> and our twelve grandchildren were baptized but, given the smaller size of
> families today as compared to those Tom mentioned, is baptizing members'
> children going to be enough to sustain our churches? With mainline 
> churches
> losing ground in our own country, and secularism joining materialism as
> controlling influences, do we have an evangelistic strategy that's 
> adequate?
> I understand that there are places where we can't go, and probably 
> wouldn't
> know how to proceed if we went, but I'm still burdened by the challenge.
>
> I would be interested in your thoughts, and particularly in whatever you
> might choose to share about the evangelistic efforts and results at the
> church you attend.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Olbricht [mailto:to...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:32 PM
> To: stone-c...@acu.edu
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies cjdu...@cs.com 8/2/12 8:10 PM
I think whenever one tries to work in an entrenched culture dominated by another religion, conversion will always be very difficult.  The history of missions is full of examples (Carey, Morrison) of missionaries who only had a handful of converts after a quarter century (or similar date) of activity.  Rodney Stark in his book Cities of God has an interesting section in the first chapter (esp pp. 8-14) of how a Moonie  managed to make converts, and he extrapolates some of that to the first century.  Most converts from Islam and Hinduism tend to take place in this country, when the individuals have moved outside their original culture.   I have on occasion talked to students who seem to want to go to difficult fields.  I have even known some to think about being a teacher in Saudi Arabia.  Someone asked me about such a field a couple of years ago, and I told them they would probably be much more productive working with such people in this country.  Working in Europe has also gained in interest; sometimes I think some students want to go there for the glamour of it and appreciate that the difficulty of making converts gets rid of the suspense. 

Yet, sometimes difficult fields can be productive.   It's hard to know what is going on in Iran but clearly something is.  Perhaps it is something of a spillover from China where a good deal happened during the cultural revolution.

 C J Dull
-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Morrison <sclaus....@gmail.com>
To: stone-campbell <stone-c...@acu.edu>
Sent: Thu, Aug 2, 2012 3:03 pm
Subject: RE: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies

Tom,

I'm glad you have such a rich RM heritage. Unfortunately, my history doesn't
go back so far. My mother, as best I can discover, was the first in her
family to be a member of the CoC. None of her siblings were, and most were
non-religious. My father and one of his sisters were the first and only
members of the CoC until my generation.

This fits with some recent pondering about the success or lack of success of
our evangelistic and mission efforts throughout S-C history. Strangely, I
began wondering about that two or three months ago when I read Instant City,
a book by Steve Inskeep, co-host of NPR's Morning Edition. As he traces the
growth of Karachi, Pakistan from a city of 400 thousand half a century ago
to its present size of more than 13 million, he describes poverty,
government corruption, Muslim extremism, and other barriers to building a
workable city. It occurred to me that I didn't have a clue how to approach
such a city with a workable mission or evangelistic strategy. Those thoughts
have reached a climax this week as I have thought about Eric Masih, a
Pakistani supported  in a mission work in Lahore by the Woodmont Hills
church in Nashville for more than 20 years, who will be at WH Sunday for the
first time in 18 years. He is a fine man who has done a good work under the
mission model in place. Conversions have been few, but that may the best
anybody can do in that environment.

In my lifetime, foreign mission work seems to have had its greatest success
in the aftermath of WWII. Domestic evangelism seems to have been most
successful in the earliest days of the RM (not in my lifetime!), during and
after WWII, and in the days when campus evangelism was so productive.

Though I am no longer in active ministry and am quite out of touch, I have
the impression that our churches have largely lost their evangelistic
fervor. Not too many decades ago, medium to large size congregations
considered a hundred baptisms a year a kind of standard to shoot for, but
I'm not hearing that any more. I certainly rejoiced when our four children
and our twelve grandchildren were baptized but, given the smaller size of
families today as compared to those Tom mentioned, is baptizing members'
children going to be enough to sustain our churches? With mainline churches
losing ground in our own country, and secularism joining materialism as
controlling influences, do we have an evangelistic strategy that's adequate?
I understand that there are places where we can't go, and probably wouldn't
know how to proceed if we went, but I'm still burdened by the challenge. 

I would be interested in your thoughts, and particularly in whatever you
might choose to share about the evangelistic efforts and results at the
church you attend. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Olbricht [mailto:to...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:32 PM
To: stone-c...@acu.edu
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies aj 8/2/12 9:29 PM
Tom, Philip and others,

My experience of working with college students in foreign campaigns
for other 20 years is almost the exact the same as you mentioned. The
purpose of our work was teaching the Bible one on one. Over time, the
number of baptisms decreased. In fact we were criticized for not
building church buildings instead of teaching the gospel. I planned
four medical omissions, with only a few students involved. Our goal
was to use free medical and medications to gain attention and build
interest. We often studied with those waiting to see the doctor.
Providing medical alone was never our goal.

My personal feeling is the reason for the decline of evangelism in the
church is came subtly. Like the seed on the thorny soil, we are slowly
being choked by things of the world, the deceitful of riches and
desire for other things. The solution is a greater spirituality.
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Hugh Fulford 8/3/12 4:25 AM
Tom mentions below the concern parents had 50 yrs ago about their children being baptized too young and today are worried about them not making any move at all to be baptized.  Our grandson will soon be 15 and still has not been baptized.  A yr or so ago I mentioned to a younger preacher whom I highly respect that young people seem to be waiting longer to be baptized that in earlier yrs.  He expressed the thought that he believed waiting longer may be a good thing.  We have talked earlier on this list about some of us who were baptized quite young (9, 10, 11) and later rebaptized, fearing our youthful baptisms may have been wrongly motivated or lacking in sufficient understanding.
 
In reading F. D. Srygley's Biographies and Sermons it is interesting to note the age of the baptism of an earlier generation of preachers.
 
F. B. Srygley: A few days shy of 17
J. E. Scobey: 16
J. A. Harding: 13
E. G. Sewell: 19 (family had been Baptists)
E. A. Elam: 16, but not very zealous until 19
J. M. McCaleb: about 14
M. C. Kurfees: 16 (family had been Methodists)
 
Hopefully, our young people will not wait until it is too late to obey the Lord, but at the same time hopefully they will arrive at the decision to do so on mature thought and study (cf. Heb. 11:24-26).
 
Hugh Fulford
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies

RE: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies Ed Broadus 8/3/12 4:52 AM
My own baptism was nearly 70 years ago, when I was a few days shy of 13.  Some of my peers had been baptized at a younger age.  At the time I was attending a very large congregation, baptisms were frequent, and exhortations to be baptized were heard every Sunday morning and evening.  There were at least two gospel meetings per year, which I attended with my parents, plus visit at gospel meetings elsewhere.
 
Hugh's references to earlier days suggest a somewhat later age for baptism.  My grandfather, who was the son of a preacher, had not been baptized when, at about age 20, he was discussing baptism with my grandmother, who was a Presbyterian at the time.  He told me that it dawned on him then that he needed to be baptized. 
 
I realize this is anecdotal evidence and proves nothing.
 
Ed

 

From: huf...@comcast.net
To: stone-c...@acu.edu

Subject: Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] Large Famiies
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:25:56 -0500
An Olympic Note Wilson, John 8/9/12 3:42 PM
Stone-Campbell Listers may be interested in knowing that Sarah Attar, who is the first woman to run for Saudi Arabia in the Olympics, is a Pepperdine undergraduate, and that her coach, Robert Radnoti, is a member of the University Church.  My wife and I spent many hours in Bible study with Robert, Pepperdine's running coach, as he sought for faith as a middle-aged man.  He was baptized about two years ago in Andy Benton's pool.  He and his wife now come regularly to our home for Bible Study as a part of a prayer group.  See the Associated Press Article below.  --John Wilson

By Associated Press, Published: August 8

LONDON - Sarah Attar finished last and more than a half-minute slower than her nearest competitor in the women's 800 meters. Yet hundreds rose to give her a standing ovation as she crossed the finish line.

For the first woman from Saudi Arabia to compete in track and field at the Olympics, the principle was more important than the performance Wednesday.  Sarah Attar became the first Saudi woman to compete in Olympic track and field, wearing a headscarf and finishing last in her 800-meter heat Wednesday.

Covered in clothing from head to toe, except for her smiling face poking out from her hood, Attar made her debut five days after a Saudi judo athlete became the ultraconservative country's first female competitor at any Olympics.

"This is such a huge honor and an amazing experience, just to be representing the women," Attar said in an interview with The Associated Press. "I know that this can make a huge difference."

The 19-year-old Attar ran 800 meters in 2 minutes, 44.95 seconds. To her, the time wasn't the point.

Her mother is American and her father is Saudi. She has dual citizenship, was born in California and runs track at Pepperdine University near Los Angeles.

Attar wanted to represent Saudi Arabia at the Olympics as a way of inspiring women.

"For women in Saudi Arabia, I think this can really spark something to get more involved in sports, to become more athletic," she said. "Maybe in the next Olympics, we can have a very strong team to come."

This year, under pressure from the International Olympic Committee, Saudi Arabia broke its practice of fielding male-only teams by entering Wojdan Ali Seraj Abdulrahim Shahrkhani in judo and Attar in track and field.

Saudi Arabia is one of three Islamic countries, along with Qatar and Brunei, that brought female athletes for the first time, making this the first Olympics in which every national team includes a woman.

Shahrkhani's appearance at the London Games in a loss Friday raised the scorn of the kingdom's Islamic clerics, who said she dishonored herself by fighting in front of men, including the male referee and judges.

In Saudi Arabia, women are monitored by the kingdom's religious police, who enforce a rigid interpretation of Islamic Shariah law on the streets and in public places such as shopping malls and college campuses.

Women in the kingdom are not allowed to travel abroad without permission from a male guardian. Only last year, they were told they would be allowed to vote - but not before 2015 - and while no laws prohibit them from driving cars, officials comply with religious edicts that have banned it.

Ahmed al-Marzooqi, an editor-in-chief of the Saudi-based online sports site shesport.com, said that because Attar lives in the United States, many people in Saudi Arabia don't consider her Saudi. Still, to al-Marzooqi, it doesn't diminish the moment.

"I think her run will support our cause here," he said. "They showed to all people and religious authority in Saudi that women in sports do not clash with Islamic tradition and Saudi society."


Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] An Olympic Note Phillip Morrison 8/9/12 5:02 PM
John,

Thanks for sharing this information about Sarah. I had read about her being a Pepperdine student, but didn't know the details you provided about her and her coach. She may well be remembered by future Olympians as a quiet revolutionary who helped advance gender equality in Muslim nations.

Thanks!

Phillip Morrison
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson harolds...@sbcglobal.net 8/9/12 5:33 PM
Shaun,
 
It looks like a major movement among conservative evangelical historians has challenged David Barton's work on Jefferson, with enough credibility that the publisher, Thomas Nelson, has withdrawn the book:
 
 
Of course, most other historians have discredited Barton's approach for a long time. It's too bad that Thomas Nelson has gotten ensnared in the religious right.
 
Harold Straughn
 


--- On Tue, 7/31/12, CASEY, SHAUN <sca...@wesleyseminary.edu> wrote:

From: CASEY, SHAUN <sca...@wesleyseminary.edu>
Subject: Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson
To: "stone-c...@acu.edu" <stone-c...@acu.edu>
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 12:09 PM

> From: "CASEY, SHAUN" <scasey@wesleyseminary.edu>
> To: <stone-campbell@acu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:14 PM
> Subject: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson
>
>
> Listers,
> Apparently right wing pseudo historian David Barton is claiming in his
> latest book on Thomas Jefferson that he was influenced by Restorationists in
> and around Charlottesville, VA.  Has anyone on the list read this book?  Is
> there any credible evidence for such a position?  Or is this just another
> one of those "Lincoln was secretly baptized by a Christian" stories?
>
> Shaun Casey
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.
> Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
> those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Wesley
> Theological Seminary. Finally, the recipient should check this email and any
> attachments for the presence of viruses.  The Seminary accepts no liability
> for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
>


This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.  If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager.  Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Wesley Theological Seminary. Finally, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses.  The Seminary accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
Re: [STONE-CAMPBELL] David Barton on Thomas Jefferson aj 8/9/12 9:40 PM
W. E. MacClenny, The Life of Rev. James O'Kelly, as I recall, claimed that O'Kelly was Jefferson's neighbor. When O'Kellly visited Washington D C. he stayed with Jefferson in the Executive Mansion ( It was not called the White House until after it was repaired after the War of 1812). This is for what it is worth.