[VO27] - Should One Support VO27 Developement?
ilias
sayings. You can detect the relevant topics easily.]
-
Most historical and also current faults around VO are based on egoism
and missmanagement, but this is a general fault of humans and a huge
topic. A huge and irrelevant topic, cause this here is about future.
For a good future, first of all go back to the roots. Keep you
projects whenever possible, with the latest version which was
published by CA (VO2.5b3).
Many VO-developers do that. They keep their projects in VO2.5xx, which
they have learned to use with all of the some faulty and the many
missing functionality.
Some of the 'two-point-fivers' have bought VO2.6 to support the
further developement of VO.
Some of them don't bought VO2.6, as they wait till the release or
VO2.7 to take their decision if they'll still use it for future
projects..
Some have given up already, and are exploring the pathes of .NET, C#
(MS dependency again) or C++ and Delphi and all those.
Many people of the VO-community are trusting GrafX. But do they
really? In fact they have no other choice, as they depend on GrafX, as
they depend on a better VO.
Everyone can decide if GrafX handles VO in a manner that a depending
community would deserve. A community which has a strong menthal
binding to this product which led them to many painfull experiences.
If you don't like the information politics of GrafX and how the
developement generally is handled, you are maybe not willing to invest
more money into VO prior to see their results.
At this point may got to the subsection, which explains the some
things about how GrafX treats the VO-community, thus you may 'load'
some negative feelings.
[2]
You maybe think now "I'll not spend more money to support
time-consuming travels to DevCon's and all this beer spending around
it and all that missinformation and missing Bugtracking and ... ".
One central DevCon per year should be adequate, so you can see faces
of the people, if you like too. And sit together and drink beer, of
course. But DevCon's are not the main problem.
You may think "This 'major-league' has only interested to feed their
ego's - and i'll not finance this".
Many many possible thoughts.
But what is relevant is thinking about yourself and about the 'middle
way', which is to Support VO2.7 and at the same time to prepare for
another paths.
Migrating an application is a critical and expensive task. Dropping
gained knowledge (tools, stable library-code, ...) costs very much
time and thus money. Investing those 150$ to 200$ for the VO27 update
is nothing compared to the costs of a migration.
Increased pre-orders increases the motivation of GrafX and thus the
motivation of the current VO-developement-team. So don't hesitate to
place you pre-order if you are in doubt. [1]
Give GrafX the a chance, or yourself a last change - it doesn't
matter. But it's the last chance for VO. The pessimistic professional
around VO have left the sinking ship. (The optimistic professionals
play already with other languages. They do not work only with VO!).
Give GrafX a last change, but stop being depending 'beggars'. You are
not. You are customers, there is a co-dependency, GrafX depends on
you!
If there's only one Client/Server vendor which provides RDD's for VO,
ask that the special free offers from this vendor will be included.
If there are products, where the companies/main authors had
disappeared, ask what's happened, ask that this products were declared
as "maintanence only".
If there's only one actual book for VO available, ask that it is
bundled, thus you can get it with lower cost.
... [many other things you can do]
-
Remember always:
GrafX is not VO...
_You_ are VO - It's community.
-
[Whilst supporting VO27, and using VO25 (for now), open already your
eyes for the 3 possible major migration paths. What can you do? Which
are those migration paths? - coming soon]
-
[1] - http://www.grafxsoft.com/vo27.htm
[note: the Credit Cards will not be charged until delivery of the
package]
-
[2]
A keypoint in language-developement is to include the Power Of The
Community into the developement-process.
This can be mainly done by publishing source-codes / pre-releases /
Bugreports / Statusrepors / ... and by providing "The Mechanics Of
Feedback".
What about GrafX? Well, bugs are tracked via bugsh...@cavo.com, and
after that nobody knows what happend with them. No public bugtracking-
and Issue-Control.
The beta-process of VO2.7 is under NDA (Non-Disclosure-Agreement),
instead of beeing public for the registred users. Why? Maybe thus none
can detect that migrating to VO27 is a pain, due to excessive code
refactoring.
Source-Code of unfinished Subsystems is not published, thus a
community member could contribute to the developement.
Take the "Automation Server Tool", which does not generate
Event-Support code. This code has nothing special in it, but in
remains unpublished, although it could be fixed / extended and finally
i could serve as an example for new Tools.
Other programming-systems are opened up more and more. VO is still
closed, accessible only by the few developers which do not share their
deveoplement-process with the community, except on DevCon's, which are
not reachable for many VO-user due to the high cost and effort.
There is a 'major-league' around VO, that in essence does not care
about the rest of the VO-community.
The VO-newsgroup is dominated by a few individuals, which write so
much that none has the chance to uncover weakness. GrafX as a leader
fails, even when this globally visible newsgroup gets full out of
control.
GrafX hides information, that the VO- and Clipper-Community definitely
has the _right_ to know.
Troll Watcher
ilias is well-known on this, and other, newsgroups as an unreliable
source of information. The purpose of his postings is usually to
mis-represent some personal hang-up he has as a valid topic for this newsgroup.
Please ensure you check the veracity of any information he posts. We also strongly
recommend that you do not reply to him. Apart from the encouragement it may provide
him,invariably you will receive some bad-mannered, illogical and spiteful responses
for your efforts.
TSDing
Honestly, I did not finish reading your article <g> I would figured u must
be very tired writing all these articles, why not give yourself a break <g>
As for me, I do not buy VO from pre-released version until VO 2.7 just
because I want to give support to VO. It is because there are features that
are worth paying for and most importantly it gets the job done. It does not
matter whether it is from Grafx or someone else, as long as VO still
fulfills my software development needs, I will continue using and upgrading.
Lately we seen VO vs C#, in the past we have seen VO vs Fox, VO vs VDBase,
VO vs Powerbuilder, VO vs Delphi, VO vs VB... and etc. Every time we have
this kind of arguments its almost like doomsday for VO. Very strange, its
almost 10 years... I am still able to use VO to deliver software to my
customers without much difficulty.
Just imagine if were were to move from one tools to another, we might end up
with codes from different tools. Maintenance would be much more difficult.
Lucky for me, I only need to maintain one type of code :) in VO.
I am now using VO 2.6 on Windows XP Pro.
Regards
TSDing
"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> wrote in message
news:tukrlvctf232qo9k1...@4ax.com...
Rod da Silva
I read with interest your latest post. I have a few comments I would like
to share.
I can't find fault in any thing you say up to your references in section
[2]. So I will confine my comments to the text above that section.
Basically you are saying (if I understand you) that as customers of VO we
have the right to expect a high standard from the vendor that makes the
product that we depend on for our living. This is true.
You also point out that each of us can determine for ourselves if GrafX is
handling VO in manner that a depending community deserves. This is also
true.
You point out that we should think about whether going to DevCons is a good
use of our time/money. This too is true.
You go on to say that each of us has to figure out whether to continue to
finance GrafX's development efforts of VO and upgrade to VO 2.7, or hold
tight with our current version of VO, and contemplate a rewrite in another
language. This is true.
You say that _we the community_ are VO and not GrafX. To a great extent
this is also very true.
You imply that we should be vocal in our suggestions on how to improve the
product (i.e.; what should and shouldn't be bundled with it). Again, true.
Finally, the sky is blue and the grass is green. These are true as well.
My question to you is what makes you think we don't consider these things
everyday? I think you likening us to "beggars" willing to take whatever is
offered and be grateful, is inappropriate and based on you not fully
understanding this community. But in fairness, how could you understand the
community, since my understanding is you are fairly new to it. I would like
to suggest that if you take the time to understand this community a little
better, you might have a better appreciation of our seemingly "infinite"
tolerance to what you might consider mistreatment.
First, I think I am typical of the VO users in this forum in that I have
over 10 years of investment in VO code, libraries, applications, etc., .
That's a lot of time and money. In short we don't come by our love of VO
because it is the flavour of the month. We have grown with it since the
early 90s (and most with Clipper since the mid 80's before that). In deed
many of us have had significant influence in the direction of VO over the
years, exactly because we used it everyday to earn a living and were
consequently very vocal about the product.
I personally have been known to rattle the cages of the product owners on
more than one (okay several) occasions over the years, always challenging
them to make the product better. Like you I have been out spoken when I
felt it necessary, and like you I have pissed a few people off doing it.
But, my motivation has always been to improve VO, to try and make it the
best product it can be. To grow it. And I have always tried to be
respectful of other peoples work and ideas when making my suggestions.
Second, over those 10 years many many of us here have attended dozens of
conference around the world to learn more about VO and Windows development
in general. During those conferences (sometimes several a year as there was
just so much information to learn back in the early years) we have meet each
other and developed in many cases great friendships. With that friendship
comes even greater respect and appreciation for each other which I think
shines through in the tone and friendly manner of the vast majority of the
messages in this forum over the years.
Third, it may surprise you to learn that the average age of this community
is well over 40 - probably closer to 45. You need to understand that much
of this community is not developing new VO applications, but maintaining, in
many cases, very successful vertical market VO applications, often
containing 10,000s or even 100,000s of lines of code. Many people here have
VO apps in the field in their respective industries with 1000s of customers.
VO (with all its warts) has helped make them very successful over the years
in their business. Others here are contractors for hire, and still use VO
where ever they can, simply because they can be more productive in it then
any other language they know. VO's language elegance and its versatility
are its hallmarks IMO, and allow you to write anything from massive business
applications, to fast system compilers, with an expressive power that few
other development environments share.
The point here is that most are not evaluating VO 2.7 to see if it will
handle their next project better than other cutting edge development
environments. Most are instead interested only in that the VO product
continue to be enhanced and supported to a level that will continue to allow
them to enhance and support their own products. For these people its
actually not as important that VO be bleeding edge. That is a reasonable
attitude to have for someone with a long history/investment in the product,
and who doesn't have the energy or the business reason to write the "next
big" software application.
The dynamic of an aging user base puts a very interesting perspective on
this newsgroup, and you would do well to consider it when you formulate your
opinions about the VO product, its vendor, and the community at large. It
is very probable that what the average VO demographic wants out of VO 2.7,
is completely different from what you might want. I am of course implying
that you do not seem to fit the average VO demographic as I have defined it
above. Feel free to correct me if this is an incorrect statement.
So in section [2] of your posting you list all of the ways VO has failed
you, and by implication the VO community. I respect your opinion but I do
not share it. The things you state in this section as negatives toward VO I
either don't agree with, or agree with but are not personally important to
me. We will simply have to agree to disagree on these points. But please
do not make the mistake of assuming that I have somehow missed your point or
am some sort of zombie incapable of reading your arguments and seeing the
light. I understand you very well and "get" what you are saying! I just
don't agree with you. So you need not waste any more time trying to convince
me (or anyone else here). For to do that is to say "I don't think you
understand me...let me try again" or "I don't respect _your_ opposing
opinion", either of which would be insulting.
Finally, with respect to the diatribe that has gone on here far too, I can
only say that as a member of the VO community, I am embarrassed by some of
the behavior exhibited here. The value of the entire newsgroup has dropped
considerable in recent months for me personally, only because I have not
wanted to visit as often to be subjected to more of the pointless bickering.
However, as you point out, I am an optimist, so hopefully the end is insight
and we can all get back to using the newsgroup for its intended purpose.
I appreciate your recent effort to be more respectful in the tone of your
message posts recently. I for one have noticed they are worded much more
carefully then say a month or so ago. I would sincerely hope responses to
you are likewise more respectfully worded.
Ilias, we don't get a lot of new faces around here, especially from someone
so vocal in their beliefs as you. From one vocal VO developer to another,
welcome. VO can use all of the new blood it can get. Its an excellent
product. It wouldn't have survived into its 11th year with virtually no
marketing if it weren't. Your thoughts on what is wrong with VO in its
current state, and how to improve VO are as important as anyone else's here,
regardless of your history with the product. If you post them respectful,
as I think you have in this post that I am responding to, than people with
respond in kind, even if they might not agree with your comments.
However, understand the difference between expressing your opinion and
forcing it. You have made your points (several times now). There is no
need to keep doing it. We are all thinking, smart people here (honestly
<g>). We will take what you say, filter it for our own perspectives and use
what is left to help formulate our own opinions. Too many people here want
to "win the argument". Stating an opinion (and backing it up if necessary)
should not be arguing IMO. Opposing opinions can coexist peacefully on even
the most volatile topics, as long as the parties can agree to disagree.
Effective communication is all about respecting the other persons point of
view and accepting that it can exist at the same time as your own opposing
point of view.
Respectfully,
Rod
"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> wrote in message
news:tukrlvctf232qo9k1...@4ax.com...
Guenther Stiewi
wrote....
... one of the greatest posts ever in this (and many other) NG.
Guenther
Stephane Hebert
...snif...!
Steph
"Rod da Silva" <RodDa...@SoftwareP.com> wrote in message
news:bjl3q7$290$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Will Chapman
|
| Finally, with respect to the diatribe that has gone on here far too,
| I can only say that as a member of the VO community, I am embarrassed
| by some of the behavior exhibited here. The value of the entire
| newsgroup has dropped considerable in recent months for me
| personally, only because I have not wanted to visit as often to be
| subjected to more of the pointless bickering. However, as you point
| out, I am an optimist, so hopefully the end is insight and we can all
| get back to using the newsgroup for its intended purpose.
|
Rod
Brilliantly put! This is precisely how I feel.
It is one thing to criticise in an adult fashion, but I am shocked that
respected members of this ng have felt they need to resort to
name-calling, cancelling other people's posts and now cluttering
it (and the internet at large) with autoposts.
I only hope that we will all read your post carefully and learn from
it. There is no other word for thes behaviour than childishness
coupled with, as you said, an obsession with 'winning the
argument'.
Lets call it a draw and get back to normality and discuss VO.
Cheers..
Will Chapman
Phil McGuinness
which involves a lot more overseas travel, and at least another 20 SDT
International articles and force you to spend another 1000 hours on CULE.
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
-----------
"Rod da Silva" <RodDa...@SoftwareP.com> wrote in message
news:bjl3q7$290$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Ilias
>
> I read with interest your latest post. I have a few comments I would like
> to share.
>> >
> > -
Marshall Rhinehart
Well put.
I would like to add one comment. The value of conferences has been brought
up in a number of threads recently.
I was able to attend the recent California conference. I would say that the
cost of my hotel room, the conference, the 6000 miles in the air (round
trip) and all other costs associated with the conference, were recouped in
ONE class. The multithreading code presented by you, by itself, made the
conference a profitable experience. (All of the 'classes' I attended were
of excellent quality.) Oskar should be commended for an excellent job for
pulling all of it together.
Yes, there is value in meeting fellow users. But being able to leverage the
expertise of the 'presenters', gives a real dollar justification to
attending these conferences.
Just my two cents,
Marshall
Phil McGuinness
You get the Bronze medal in the VO literary award.. and Rod the GOLD.
Well said and so accurate. I love it when reality gets back into the VO
group.
I think Brian should add another say 25 buttons in the VO IDE for VO2.7
They would not do anything really but be there so the VS.NET users feel
right at home.
They should be pretty colors and be prominent so when other developers look
at your system they will go home green with envy because you have more
buttons than them.
Actually one then could cause a GPF so they would feel like they will still
using Windows 98.
Yes a Nostalgia button.
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
---
"TSDing" <din...@pc.jaring.my> wrote in message
news:3f5e0...@news.tm.net.my...
Jari Sevon
Couldn't said it better myself.. <g>
I haven't really bothered to make any comments in this issue
until know. In the beginning of this war I made few, because
I thought somebody just had bad day, but surprisingly it continued
and has grown to something really strange.
Ilias propably have lot of value to offer this NG, when
this war stops.
Other issue...
Thanks for making me feel young again.
> Third, it may surprise you to learn that the average age of this community
> is well over 40 - probably closer to 45.
I have always said that I really feel young until the day there
is no older guy playing ice hockey in our country team (Team selected for
World Championships)and guess what?
In Finnish team there has been this superb player Raimo Helminen 38
until last WC 2003 in may. He wasn't selected anymore, allthough he
still playes in national league. So I have been feeling old after that,
but know with your comment I can feel young again... <G>
- Jari -
TSDing
I have once experience a customer using MS-Words... where one of my software
in VO 1.0 have small utility with basic notepad like feature ( less than
notepad ), which can only retrieve, save and print ( no fonts, no
rulers... ). This particular customer actually dump his licensed MS-Words
for that. I was suprised... when I ask him why, he says that is what he
needs.
Similarly as for VO IDE, it is giving me everything I need. Maybe other
people has different needs. I dont really need all those additional buttons,
tabs, auto this and that...
Regards
TSDing
"Phil McGuinness" <hey...@sherlock.com.au> wrote in message
news:bjljoq$khjmv$1...@ID-88745.news.uni-berlin.de...
<snip>
Sven Ebert
extraordinary in style, language and content.
This speech should be a banner for the soul of our community.
Thanks
Sven
Trevor Smith
Trevor
Long term lurker!
Dave Francis
Mega insight and beautifully put. But how did you know my age? <G>
Dave Francis
"Rod da Silva" <RodDa...@SoftwareP.com> wrote in message
news:bjl3q7$290$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
RPSoftware
Quite a long post.
BTW, I am under 35. I am 26 when I embraced VO.
--
Regards,
Rene J. Pajaron
RPSoftware
Philippines
visit us (soon) at www.rpsoftware.ph
"Rod da Silva" <RodDa...@SoftwareP.com> wrote in message
news:bjl3q7$290$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
pe
Paul
"Rod da Silva" <RodDa...@SoftwareP.com> wrote in message
news:bjl3q7$290$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Ilias
>
> I read with interest your latest post. I have a few comments I would like
> to share.
> .....
Geoff Schaller
One presumes that means you are 34 then. Why not say: "I am 34". Most of us
can probably figure out that 34 is under 35 <g>
Joze Stensak
but only for next 13 days :-(
"RPSoftware" <~_remove_this_rpsoft_remove_this~@mozcom.com> wrote in message
news:bjobgd$ktv38$1...@ID-143532.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark Chimes
Once again, thank you.
cheers,
Mark
dialog2
Rod, your speech is a great lesson for all of us. Thank you.
For all the community and about our age, say like me : " I'm 38 (for
some years) and I'm young ! "
Hem... Is 38 young enought for programer's NG ?
Patrick GERARD
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
ilias
<RodDa...@SoftwareP.com> wrote:
[...]
>Respectfully,
>
>Rod
"Respectfully"
wrong pick.
rejected.
-
The reply which ends with "Respectfully" is full of disrespect.
Disrespect in several contexts, affecting multiple 'targets'.
One target is me.
It could be the most disrespectfull reply i got in this newsgroup.
-
But it's not.
Cause disrespect from an 'justifier' (here: businessman and
'politician') is irrelevant to me.
-
Disrespect from an 'idiot' is irrelevant to me, too.
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=a3uofv4tp8m3uhgdap4ukju96i7a0ejoq3%404ax.com
-
Thus somehow there is similarity between a 'justifier' and an 'idiot'.
-
Honestly,
ilias
Rod da Silva
Lets just agree to disagree then and get on with life then, shall we?
Rod
ilias
<RodDa...@SoftwareP.com> wrote:
>Ilias
>
>Lets just agree to disagree then
There is no disagreement.
>and get on with life then,
It never stopped.
>shall we?
Feel free to do whatever you think is right to do.
As i feel free to do whatever i think is right to do.
>
>Rod
>
>
Patrick Vletter (Prive)
There was a point in time, let's say about a week ago, when I felt that some
people in this NG were too harsh on you.
You've ultimately proven they weren't...
> As i feel free to do whatever i think is right to do.
Are you sure it's really thinking that you're doing?
I've not seen a more descent reply to any of your posts than Rod's and I've
not seen a more blunt reply to a post as yours to his in quiet some time.
You're kill-filed.
Disrespectfully,
Patrick
Stephane Hebert
!!! PLONKED !!!
"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> wrote in message
news:4k84mv800ahflb7ms...@4ax.com...
Doug Brong
This is extreme passive/agressive behavior. Since we are at an arm's
length, we can be his whipping boys & girls. There is no fear of
retribuiton, and he gets to act out his angry feelings on us.
The adult thing to do would be for him to work this out with someone.
Until he gets the courage, he will continue the expression of his
anger / disgust / fear towards other people whom he doesn't know.
Responding to him, feeds his behavior, in that he has another person
to lead along, and then insult (agress on).
In summary, what he wants is everyone to feel as bad and hopeless as
he feels. As a stranger/mere acquaintance there is no way to be
assertive / pleasant / or logical with a person who has this problem,
to this degree.
ilias
wrote:
>My wife has given me more info.
Ilias fix
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=4f56caa1.03090...@posting.google.com
-
ilias
[...]
> [Whilst supporting VO27, and using VO25 (for now), open already your
> eyes for the 3 possible major migration paths. What can you do? Which
> are those migration paths? - coming soon]
[VO25] - Migration Paths
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=1be6mv4f6n2mgbelcqpl7nf88pb1c1lgf4%404ax.com
RPSoftware
--
Regards,
Rene J. Pajaron
RPSoftware
Philippines
visit us (soon) at www.rpsoftware.ph
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:_hZ7b.94657$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...