[VO25] - Packaged Service Libraries
ilias
-
Please feel free to contact me regarding this topic via e-mail and let me
know
about any technical suggestions
about your interested to contribute to this project.
about any suggestions for an business model. about anything else, positive
or negative
-
The Community Power - a key point in the programming-language-development-
process. Many users are highly interested to contribute to their language
of choice. A language vendor should provide the necessary infrastructure to
- minimize the effort for a user to contribute. - centralize user
contributions - feed contributions back to the main product.
The Mechanics Of Feedback - the most important part in this infrastructure.
In an ideal environment an user can contribute without any involvement of
the vendor (like e.g. in some open-source projects). Publishing pre-
releases, Bug reports, Status reports, Feature Requests and some of the
source-codes enforces contributions.
It is possible to maintain VO2.5b3, even without the source-codes of the
different subsystems (Compiler, IDE,...). The missing source-codes make
this task much more difficult but not impossible. As this library is mostly
about "maintenance" and "migration" issues, it does not matter that much.
It is somehow positive, too - unavailable code cannot be 'broken'.
Many of the following steps seem obvious, but if you look at VO and even
other languages with a higher userbase you'll see that many of those
obvious things were not provided. There are a some very few but very basic
steps:
1.) Architectural Overview - Document precisely (but simply) the status of
VO2.5b3, thus any interested developer get a very fast read-in. A graphical
representation of the architecture, which shows the subsystems and how they
are tight together. An interested party should get an overview in about a
minute. The format of choice is html.
2.) Subsystem Details - Facts like code-size (real or estimated) of the
subsystems, programming language used, compiler version and further
details. A click on the subsystem shows those details, which can be further
Subsystems. One minute to get the first overview of the Subsystem of
interest.
3.) A Public Issue-Control-System (PICS), where all Issues (Bugs,
Migration, Feature-Requests, ...) were reported centralized, including
available fixes / or workarounds for that Issue. All entries can be
retrieved separately, e.g. "migration-issues VO25". Every registered user
can set a priority for any given Issue. The priorities were merged, thus a
'userbase priority list' is created.
After setting up those basics, the PICS is filled with the several existing
issues. At this point there is already more information available than from
CA and GrafX together: a public bug-status-report about VO2.5b3, the
"migration-delta VO25=>VO26" and the "users(!) priority list".
This collection of issues will serve as a source for the further steps
("Fixes" refers to Fixes/Patches/Workarounds). - unify structure and
documentation of available fixes. - categorize and bundle fixes in
convenient packages - whenever possible, a fix can independently
enabled/disabled
Packaged Service Library - or short "PSL" can increase the maintainability
and usability of the contained fixes. An additional fix can be added with
low effort and without affecting the consistency of the other fixes in the
PSL. Inexperienced developers do not need the assistance of experienced
ones. Experienced developers, which are generally able to handle even the
most complex issues, can focus on their own product instead of spending
time and energy on maintaining VO25.
The collective knowledge about the solutions (fixes, workarounds,
migrations) is the one technological volume. It is based on thorough
understanding of the problem domain and mostly of VO and its subsystems
itself (or of the target language, if migration to a NONVO language is the
issue). This "collective knowledge", which is already available, represents
the content of the PSL's.
The abstract packaging of this "collective knowledge" is the second
technological volume which is not existent yet. It is the major challenge,
especially due to the missing codes of the VO25-language-cores. Abstract
understanding of concepts is the most important factor to achieve this
task. The deep and thorough understanding of VO itself is not needed.
The are some difficulties to implement the basic concept of a "PSL". Even
if the domain-knowledge can be abstracted down to an effective level, VO
itself may not have the necessary constructs to map the abstraction to real
code. This results in the need to add language constructs to VO, directly
or indirectly. This becomes even more true for PSL's affecting Migration
Issues (mainly for VO2VO or VO2X migrations).
The Language Design is my main and primary interest. I would like to create
those "Packaged-Service-Libraries" for VO, starting from VO25, whilst
creating the neccessary extensions for VO. To keep the ability of
abstractly viewing things (around VO), I will strongly depend on very
specific informations from people with a thorough understanding of VO.
Those people must have the exceptional ability to respond precisely with
the fact requested without interweaving other non relevant facts.
Please feel free to contact me regarding this topic via e-mail and let me
know
- about any technical suggestions
- about your interested to contribute to this project.
- about any suggestions for an business model. - about anything else,
positive or negative
The Pressure Of The Group is very high, especially in a small community
like the VO one. Becoming an outsider can critically influence further
forthcoming with VO.
Privacy Statement - I will respect the privacy of any person which contacts
me regarding this topic. I will not mention in any way the fact that this
person has contacted me, neither directly nor indirectly (e.g. whilst
publicly mentioning details that would imply the persons contact).
Marshall Rhinehart
As professional developers, we combine limited resources (compilers,
libraries, code, with our time, or that of our staff) to provide solutions
to paying customers. Hopefully, paying for the first, is more than offset
by the latter.
GraphX works under these same constraints. While not entirely understanding
what your attempting to do, nor having the further time to invest in it, I
am puzzled as to how you would be compensated for all of this 'work'. If
the market demanded what you are considering, wouldn't GraphX provide it?
Again, the economic equation that constrains us all, comes into play.
While you may have excellent ideas, is there a market for it? GraphX has
limited resources (as do we all), and while you may disagree, I'd prefer
that the focus of those resources be on 2.7, and subsequently 3.0. (While
you may not feel the same way, when I see the pricing for 2.7... I think it
very reasonalble.)
This forum helps us get problems solved. The forum, I believe, for what you
are considering, is the market place. Put your plan together, get
financing, and see if it flies.
Asking for our time, and consideration, after you have been so abrupt with
so many here, is laughable. If you have a better mousetrap, go build it,
come back when your done, and compete. Until then, your wasting our time,
and yours.
Marshall Rhinehart
Geoff Schaller
"Marshall Rhinehart @adelphia.net>" <mrhp<remove> wrote in message
news:T0D9b.1419$065.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Gary Stark
Geoff Schaller wrote:
I'm still trying to understand his MESSage. It's totally indecipherable, and
makes gibberish look coherent.
Hell, it makes LOTR or Letterman look positively exciting!
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Mark L. Cooper
Sounds like maybe the Harbour Project would be a good fit for Ilias'
talents. Aren't they already doing/attempting all the stuff he is
recommending?
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
Marshall Rhinehart
You've got me beat on multiple fronts. <g>
1.) In all seriousness, I don't have much of a clue what he is talking
about.
2.) The Harbour Project to me sounds like a good place to take my boat. I
think I've heard of this.(open source?)..yikes....am I spending way too much
time with VO...?
3.) Your Buckeyes.....came awfully close to ending their winning
ways...(vs. NC state?)
4.) You can park in you customer's parking lot? I do work for my neighbor,
but I could up my rate 10% <g> before he'd let me park (even in a small city
like Buffalo....parking spaces are like gold).
I'm off to look into this Harbour Project stuff. If you don't hear from me
again....you'll know I'm a convert.
Marshall Rhinehart
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bk7aqp$q3rn2$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
>
> You've got me beat on multiple fronts. <g>
>
You're making me feel like a veteran.<g>
> 1.) In all seriousness, I don't have much of a clue what he is talking
> about.
>
I don't believe you're alone on that count.<g>
> 2.) The Harbour Project to me sounds like a good place to take my boat.
I
> think I've heard of this.(open source?)..yikes....am I spending way too
much
> time with VO...?
>
If you spend any time dealing with Linux you learn to expect software for
'free.' This 'free' software ends up costing a bundle the first time through
as documentation can be somewhat lacking. What is there is generally geared
to a techno-geek. It's getting better though.
> 3.) Your Buckeyes.....came awfully close to ending their winning
> ways...(vs. NC state?)
>
Yep. Every store/bar/car radio in town was tuned to the game. Business is
always way off on game day. I think the Columbus heart attack rate went up
that day. I actually have a home in Warren (5 miles north of Youngstown) and
graduated from Youngstown State. Coach Tressel was a saint in Youngstown
with 4 championshiphs under his belt with the Penguins. Actually, it doesn't
take much to be a saint in Youngstown when you look at all our jailed
political figures. Tressel was a super-saint! He's still doing very good.
> 4.) You can park in you customer's parking lot? I do work for my
neighbor,
> but I could up my rate 10% <g> before he'd let me park (even in a small
city
> like Buffalo....parking spaces are like gold).
>
So up your rates!
This one client is in a light industrial park out in the country about 1/2
hour east of Columbus. There is a junk yard (automobile salvage facility<g>)
in front of us. 100 acres of apple orchard on one side. 10 acres of soy
beans on the other. And a woods behind us. We have about 6 acres of
manicured lawn, a half-acre pond with picnic table. I have a 37' motorhome I
live in while on-site. They provided an electrical outlet for us. We can
drain right into their septic tank. The only thing I have to do is carry
water from the office to the RV when I need to top off the fresh water
holding tank. I could tap into their water supply if I didn't mind using
hard, orange water. The water in the office (100 ft away) is softened and
clear of iron.
It's a rough life<bg>
BTW, I have some friends in Buffalo. Met them through the internet due to us
both having Australian Cattle Dogs. The next time I get over that way I'll
give you a head's up. There is some really great beer brewed in Buffalo.
> I'm off to look into this Harbour Project stuff. If you don't hear from
me
> again....you'll know I'm a convert.
>
Be prepared for a fairly steep learning curve. Some of the open source
projects need compiled on your machine before you even attempt to install
them.
Gary Stark
"Mark L. Cooper" wrote:
> Marshall,
>
> Sounds like maybe the Harbour Project would be a good fit for Ilias'
> talents. Aren't they already doing/attempting all the stuff he is
> recommending?
No.
As I understand it, they're doing it all in (from what I hear) relative
harmony and with relative cooperation from within the group.
And with respect to existing copyrights and legalities.
Gary Stark
>
> > 1.) In all seriousness, I don't have much of a clue what he is talking
> > about.
> >
> I don't believe you're alone on that count.<g>
I've got my hand up on that one too. It was all Greek to me .... <g>
> 'free.' This 'free' software ends up costing a bundle the first time through
> as documentation can be somewhat lacking. What is there is generally geared
> to a techno-geek. It's getting better though.
Still has a long way to go. Can you see Mabel at the office though recompiling
her word processor because the boss needs the graphics capabilities added in ?
Mark L. Cooper
>
> As I understand it, they're doing it all in (from what I hear) relative
> harmony and with relative cooperation from within the group.
>
> And with respect to existing copyrights and legalities.
>
Point well taken!
Marshall Rhinehart
> So up your rates!
I have a conscience. <g>
>
> This one client is in a light industrial park out in the country about 1/2
> hour east of Columbus. There is a junk yard (automobile salvage
facility<g>)
> in front of us. 100 acres of apple orchard on one side. 10 acres of soy
> beans on the other. And a woods behind us. We have about 6 acres of
> manicured lawn, a half-acre pond with picnic table. I have a 37' motorhome
I
> live in while on-site. They provided an electrical outlet for us. We can
> drain right into their septic tank. The only thing I have to do is carry
> water from the office to the RV when I need to top off the fresh water
> holding tank. I could tap into their water supply if I didn't mind using
> hard, orange water. The water in the office (100 ft away) is softened and
> clear of iron.
>
You've mentioned, I think, it's a family business, right? I do a fair
amount of work for 'family' businesses. The decision making process is
certainly different than a strictly corporate environment, but as long as
they can afford you, I prefer it. In the northeast, I suspect a fair number
of manufacturers remain, because they are family owned. (I'm talking fairly
small.... 10 million dollar annual sales, 20 to 30 employees, big enough to
warrant a computer system, not big enough to have an IT department.)
>
> BTW, I have some friends in Buffalo. Met them through the internet due to
us
> both having Australian Cattle Dogs. The next time I get over that way
I'll
> give you a head's up. There is some really great beer brewed in Buffalo.
>
Send me an email if your in the neighborhood. As far as the beer
goes....I'd have no idea <g>. Even number rounds on me.
Marshall Rhinehart
Mark L. Cooper
> > So up your rates!
>
> I have a conscience. <g>
>
Me too. We're comfortable here. We write our own ticket (hours). My
significant other wrote the accounting package and is maintaining it in
Summer 87 while I learn VO and maintain the network itself. We charge less
than the going rate, but the perks more than make up for it.
>
> You've mentioned, I think, it's a family business, right?
Correct.
>I do a fair
> amount of work for 'family' businesses. The decision making process is
> certainly different than a strictly corporate environment, but as long as
> they can afford you, I prefer it. In the northeast, I suspect a fair
number
> of manufacturers remain, because they are family owned. (I'm talking
fairly
> small.... 10 million dollar annual sales, 20 to 30 employees, big enough
to
> warrant a computer system, not big enough to have an IT department.)
>
Thats us to the T. There are approx 35 full timers here. Because we're in
the construction industry we hire out of the union halls near the job sites.
I understand we can have upwards of another 40 - 50 on the payroll depending
on the job requirements.
>
> Send me an email if your in the neighborhood. As far as the beer
> goes....I'd have no idea <g>. Even number rounds on me.
>
Sounds like a plan.
ilias
> Ilias,
>
> As professional developers, we combine limited resources (compilers,
> libraries, code, with our time, or that of our staff) to provide
> solutions to paying customers. Hopefully, paying for the first, is more
> than offset by the latter.
ok
> GraphX works under these same constraints. While not entirely
> understanding what your attempting to do, nor having the further time to
> invest in it, I
> am puzzled as to how you would be compensated for all of this 'work'. If
> the market demanded what you are considering, wouldn't GraphX provide it?
GrafX is not interested in maintaining VO25, as they wan't to sell VO27
licences / updates.
Thus a 3rd party can provide this service:
Maintenance & Migration for VO25 [later for VO27, too.].
Simple.
> Again, the economic equation that constrains us all, comes into play.
The economic equation for the "us all" and other people:
How much time does a "Maintenance & Migration Library" save?
What is the cost for such a library?
-
The economic equation for the library producer:
How much customers will need this library?
How much will buy it?
>
> While you may have excellent ideas, is there a market for it?
i don't know.
i try to check this out.
> GraphX has
> limited resources (as do we all), and while you may disagree, I'd prefer
> that the focus of those resources be on 2.7, and subsequently 3.0.
> (While you may not feel the same way, when I see the pricing for 2.7... I
> think it very reasonalble.)
GrafX will focus on VO27.
This is ok.
Someone else must focus on a "Service System" for VO25.
And someone else must focus on a "Service System" for VO27 (as GrafX has
limited resources).
> This forum helps us get problems solved. The forum, I believe, for what
> you are considering, is the market place. Put your plan together, get
> financing, and see if it flies.
This is my plan (article "Packaged Service Libraries").
The rest is up to the community.
> Asking for our time, and consideration, after you have been so abrupt
> with so many here, is laughable.
see it as a challenge.
Control Your Egoism.
> If you have a better mousetrap, go build it,
> come back when your done, and compete. Until then, your wasting our
> time, and yours.
It would be a waste of time to build it, without checking the market.
But yes, maybe i'm wasting my time with VO and it's community.
maybe not.
will see.
> Marshall Rhinehart
ilias
<mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote:
> Be prepared for a fairly steep learning curve. Some of the open source
> projects need compiled on your machine before you even attempt to install
> them.
this is not true for xharbour.
commercial distribution:
Open Sourc:
ilias
<mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote:
> Marshall,
>
> Sounds like maybe the Harbour Project would be a good fit for Ilias'
> talents. Aren't they already doing/attempting all the stuff he is
> recommending?
commercial distribution with parallel open source project (all sources
available)
commandline tools.
generates Object Format which can be linked with other languages, e.g. C
generated Object Format (if i understood this right)
pricing starts at $95
...
all this sounds very interesting.
online bugtracking available.
...
may this is another major migration path?
-
http://www.xharbour.com/main_features.php
http://www.xharbour.com/comparison_chart.php
Mark L. Cooper
> commercial distribution with parallel open source project (all sources
> available)
>
I, and most other people on this newsgroup, use Visual Objects as a tool. We
use this tool as a means to provide a service or product to our
clients/customers.
Some of us on this newsgroup also take great enjoyment in playing with
computers/programs just because we think it is a fun thing to do. It is a
mental challenge.
I think the vast majority of the members of this newsgroup fall into the
first category. Visual Objects, the tool, generally gets the job done.
Otherwise we wouldn't be here in the first place. There are a few
add-ons/plug-ins that make this tool easier to use. They are not necessary
for the functioning of the tool.
Now I have not met a soul on this newsgroup. But, my feeling is that most of
us are pretty busy selling and maintaining the software we provide to our
various customers. The nature of this newsgroup is that we generally only
see 'problems' posted. We don't see the days and weeks where everything is
working OK.
So my question to you is why would we want to spend more of our valuable
time on an Open-Source VO 2.5b3 Project?
In effect, we have all chosen to sub-contract to Brian and his team to
maintain, fine-tune, and enhance ONE of our business tools for us. Some of
us choose to pay him more often than others by purchasing any upgrade as it
comes along. But we don't work on the upgrades ouselves. We are too busy
doing what we are good at and GET PAID for.
We've all upgraded our computers at one time or another by going down to our
friendly computer retailer and giving them money for a newer, better,
faster, easier to use (in general) computer. We DON'T get involved in the
design, debugging, or construction of our computers.
Same thing with our automobiles. Some of us choose to maintain older
vehicles beyond their typical life span (the cars life, not ours<g>) because
we like a particular model or we just enjoy tinkering. I suspect the
majority go out and purchase a newer, better, model when the current vehicle
is not as useful as it once was or because it would cost more time and/or
money to maintain it than to replace it.
I have been involved in setting up a firewall/proxy server for one of my
clients. I researched the available products and came to the conclusion that
my client would be better served by me setting up a Linux server and using
open-source software including squid, snort, shorewall, sendmail, logsentry,
samba and several others. This solution will actually cost my client more
money up front (in the form of my time) than if we purchased something off
the shelf. But they will be getting what is best for them and in the long
run I believe it will cost them less.
From what I've seen of the open-source community, they do not expend many
resources to maintain an older version. They are spending their time and
effort on the latest version. The other thing I've observed about the
open-source community is they enjoy the process as much as, if not more
than, the actual product itself. They work on this stuff after work and on
weekends.
Again, most of us here on this newsgroup have OTHER priorities.
I truly believe you are beating a dead horse here if you think we are going
to spend more of our valuable free time contributing to an open source VO.
The people that are willing to do that have already switched over to
xHarbour or one of its predecessors.
We are generally happy with the tools (VO being one of them) we have chosen
to help make our living. We are NOT going to change no matter how many times
you tell us there is a better we. This way works for US.
Now, I have to ask you a few more questions. Remember, you are telling us
(insisting, actually) that there is a better way to do things here.
Have you done any programming in VO?
If yes, did you complete the project? In other words, is it a working,
standalone program?
Have you ever sold (or given away) a program that you wrote in VO? For
instance, years ago I wrote a mailing list management program for my church
and donated it to them.
If you can't answer yes to any 2 of the above questions, how can you
honestly expect us to take you seriously?
You have expended a great deal of energy and time trying to convince us that
we are not on the true and proper path as it pertains to VO. I suspect the
combined income from VO projects on this newsgroup is very large. And yet,
you continue to try to tell us we are going about it all wrong.
I suspect most of us get a lot of personal satisfaction providing our
clients with working solutions, yet you persist in telling us we are going
about it all wrong.
Well, I for one would really like to know what kind of solutions you provide
to your clients before I put much faith in any of your ideas.
>
> pricing starts at $95
>
$95 is nothing! $200 is nothing! Even $600 or $700 is nothing compared to
our other costs of doing business.
>
> may this is another major migration path?
>
Why, why, why, would I wish to migrate? I don't know about you, but my tool
works<g>. It gets the job done that is asked of it!
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
(It's now 1:52 am my time and I really wonder why I even bothered)
Geoff Schaller
> open-source community is they enjoy the process as much as, if not more
> than, the actual product itself. They work on this stuff after work and on
> weekends.
>
> Again, most of us here on this newsgroup have OTHER priorities.
They do? ???
Shit! I have to get out and get a life then <g>
Gary Stark
> > Again, most of us here on this newsgroup have OTHER priorities.
>
> They do? ???
> Shit! I have to get out and get a life then <g>
Or get in and have one.
:)
Marshall Rhinehart
> > If you have a better mousetrap, go build it,
> > come back when your done, and compete. Until then, your wasting our
> > time, and yours.
>
> It would be a waste of time to build it, without checking the market.
>
I agree. One of the biggest costs associated with any new service/product,
is marketing. You have a population that makes up your target market.
Somehow, you need to let them know this product exists, and how it fills a
need that the customer has. Clearly, only a percentage of the target market
will buy.
When you see periodicals for a group dry up (choose to discontinue
publication), it's a pretty good indication that the vendors supplying that
group aren't finding enough new customers, through that periodical. Once
those advertising vehicles dissappear, how do you reach that market... cost
effectively?
While I have zero knowledge of the workings of GraphX, I think I can
reasonably assume that their position, as a software distributor, put them
in a unique position to pick up the ball that CA was prepared to drop. They
have lists of customers, and contacts in the field. To a person interested
solely in technology, mailing lists and contacts sound like a lot of
'fluff'. To a person running a business, it's the
difference between profit and loss.
A new business must take this into consideration before advancing any new
concept. How will we cost effectively be able to reach the market, what
percent, through testing, can we reasonably expect to adopt our new product.
In a way, you have conducted a test, on this forum, over the last few weeks.
In a recent post you asked people to contact you via email. It's free to
email. How many contacts did you get (asked rhetorically)? When you ask
people for money, do you think more will respond?
My wife would read the above, and say I'm being mean. But you have the
sense to realize, before going any further, that the numbers don't add up.
As the NASDAQ crash proved, the ephemeral nature of the internet (and in
some ways software) can delude people to thinking there is a market, where
there is none. The physical world gives us the opportunity to say..."that
doesn't look right". A five story parking lot in the middle of an open
field, doesn't work, but it's obvious, so the builder never sets out to do
it. A fisherman who invests in a 200 foot boat, to go in a 500 foot pond,
nope, won't happen, because it just doesn't look right. If you can develop
an eye that looks at software, and can get the 'looks right' or "doesn't
look right" test down, you'll be well ahead.
> But yes, maybe i'm wasting my time with VO and it's community.
>
I agree. But rather than say waste, say you learned, because you should
have, and move on.
Marshall Rhinehart
Phil McGuinness
snip[ One of the biggest costs associated with any new service/product, is
marketing ]
Interesting in your comments re cost of marketing.. and conclusions. It
does not have to be that way.
Have a look at PHP and current usage and its growth.. Marketing dollars
spent.... ZIPPO...
Have a look at the impact of .NET and all its marketing an posturing...
against PHP.. that right NO IMPACT
http://www.php.net/usage.php
Why is that.. ? Because for most people .NET is not actually a solution to
current problems but a whole new set of problems. Now you the old and the
new to deal with.
Marketings aim generally is fill a social need.. usually by a service or
product. Great products sell themselves and if they are accepted by the
market.. the marketing is done for you.
VO / Grafx has to convince the market it has the solution to the problems
and needs that clients find themselves needing to solve. If a product solves
a problem they do not have or at least do not perceive they have you have a
FLOP. I personally believe there is a lot of life in the Windows API market
a least for 5 years..
The problem for VO is... does the market perceive they need a .NET solution
or a multiplatform solution or a Windows API type solution? What would be
the answer this question for most people in this group? For me WIN API is
fine for now and the other solutions may not lie in VO.
Be interesting to see what happens.. because at the end of the day this is
what is going to make VO a market success and grow its user base
significantly. I am sure there is a sleeper market there.
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
--------
Marshall Rhinehart
> Interesting in your comments re cost of marketing.. and conclusions. It
> does not have to be that way.
> Have a look at PHP and current usage and its growth.. Marketing dollars
> spent.... ZIPPO...
> Have a look at the impact of .NET and all its marketing an posturing...
> against PHP.. that right NO IMPACT
> http://www.php.net/usage.php
>
My marketing comments were shaped to respond to Ilias question. I agree
that for a technical product that fills a perceived need, old marketing
'dictums' are out the window. Incremental improvements, or ..."hey..that
makes sense, I should do it that way" will no doubt, reduce the needed
marketing budget, and in a best case scenario, maybe even to zero.
What I was attempting to convey, is that I don't think Ilias has an idea
that is being accepted in that way. Therefore, he would need to create a
perceived need, via marketing. I don't think the numbers work (never mind
the legality) for what he is trying to do.
> Why is that.. ? Because for most people .NET is not actually a solution
to
> current problems but a whole new set of problems. Now you the old and the
> new to deal with.
>
> Marketings aim generally is fill a social need.. usually by a service or
> product. Great products sell themselves and if they are accepted by the
> market.. the marketing is done for you.
>
> VO / Grafx has to convince the market it has the solution to the problems
> and needs that clients find themselves needing to solve. If a product
solves
> a problem they do not have or at least do not perceive they have you have
a
> FLOP. I personally believe there is a lot of life in the Windows API
market
> a least for 5 years..
>
The thing that will make us obsolete, as 'Windows API' programmers is not
.net. The shift from DOS to Windows, could be perceived by your end
customer. The shift from Windows, to whatever it will be, will make it
necesary for us to learn that. I think that is much further off than five
years.
> The problem for VO is... does the market perceive they need a .NET
solution
> or a multiplatform solution or a Windows API type solution? What would be
> the answer this question for most people in this group? For me WIN API
is
> fine for now and the other solutions may not lie in VO.
>
It is interesting that while you (and others...myself included) have a
certain patience with the fact that Windows API programming will be around
for awhile, we have a (choose where you fall on the spectrum.) impatience
with GraphX to know exactly what direction they will take.
We like being able to steer the car once we see the intersection, while we
would like GraphX to choose an offramp, while going full speed, blindfolded.
By getting 2.7 right, it should build enough confidence in his current
market, to give him the chance at 3.0, and the larger market.
What will be included in 3.0 is the big question....but as you've said,
you've got customers who won't care for quite some time.
> Be interesting to see what happens.. because at the end of the day this is
> what is going to make VO a market success and grow its user base
> significantly. I am sure there is a sleeper market there.
>
I hope so.
Marshall Rhinehart
ilias
> Ilias,
>
>> > If you have a better mousetrap, go build it,
>> > come back when your done, and compete. Until then, your wasting our
>> > time, and yours.
>>
>> It would be a waste of time to build it, without checking the market.
>>
>
> I agree. One of the biggest costs associated with any new
[...] (thorough comments)
Thank you for your thorough comments.
>> But yes, maybe i'm wasting my time with VO and it's community.
>>
> I agree. But rather than say waste, say you learned, because you should
> have, and move on.
Of course.
I meant " 'wasting' " and not " wasting ".
> Marshall Rhinehart
ilias
<mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote:
> I, and most other people on this newsgroup, use Visual Objects as a tool.
[...] (
Thank you for your comments, and sorry for not answering in detail.
ilias
<mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote:
> I, and most other people on this newsgroup, use Visual Objects as a tool.
Gary Stark
> I agree. But rather than say waste, say you learned, because you should
> have, and move on.
>
I would hope too that Ilias has learned.
It's a strange attitude, really - offend and upset something approaching 100% of
the very market you're targetting, and then expect them to support you.
All those in favour of Ilias moving on ?
Geoff Schaller
> The thing that will make us obsolete, as 'Windows API' programmers is not
> .net. The shift from DOS to Windows, could be perceived by your end
> customer. The shift from Windows, to whatever it will be, will make it
> necesary for us to learn that. I think that is much further off than five
> years.
This is my prediction and estimation also.
I have said this many times here and been condemned as being out of touch.
Its like the Linux argument. Those of the ng who were many times smarter
than I were arguing in 1999 that Linux was about to decimate Microsoft and
that we should all get all trained up in Linux and Star Office and get ready
to ditch windows. The argument was to get VO onto a linux compiler
immediately. I argued it was 5+ years away they argued 6-12 months at most.
These same gurus were still running the same argument in 2000, 2001, 2002
and now this year. I haven't changed my tune <g>. And then along came .Net
in 2001 and then same doomsday predictions were made. We even had an ng
voting forum and a surprising number of people said they would be switching
to .net and/or linux within 6 months. The survey should still be available
on Google somewhere. I guess I'm still not as smart <g>.
Geoff
pe
At the next Devcon, find someonne associated with the Harbour project
(hopefully me) and buy them a beer. <g>
Paul
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bk7aqp$q3rn2$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
>
> At the next Devcon, find someonne associated with the Harbour project
> (hopefully me) and buy them a beer. <g>
>
Are you part of the Harbour Project?
If Ilias stirs things up there like he did here, you might want something
stronger than a beer<g>. You might want to lynch me for suggesting it in the
first place.
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
> Paul
pe
Join in if you like. <g>
Paul
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bki46a$24ogr$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
Thanks for the invite. I'm happy with VO. It doesn't make sense for me to
switch compilers at this point.
Marshall Rhinehart
Did you get much rain ( from Isabel )?
Marshall
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bki9bf$24upd$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
>
> Did you get much rain ( from Isabel )?
>
Not much. It started raining (gentle rain) late Thursday evening then
tapered off by noon on Friday. Some mild winds off and on throughout the
rain.
How about you?
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA> Mark,
pe
Paul
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bki9bf$24upd$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
You're from Canada, not Oz, correct<g>. I was taking you seriously. I'll
have to adjust my assumptions<g>.
Bob Arnold
> You're from Canada, not Oz, correct<g>. I was taking you seriously. I'll
> have to adjust my assumptions<g>.
I can see a normalisation* problem coming on <g>
Bob Arnold
* that's right: normali<S>ation!
pe
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bkiogf$291tu$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Paul,
>
> You're from Canada, not Oz, correct<g>.
Yes, I am.
> I was taking you seriously. I'll have to adjust my assumptions<g>.
What I meant was I didn't think you were going to change languages, but
you're welcome to view the thread if you miss Ilias yet. <g>
Paul
Marshall Rhinehart
Nothing like what they were predicting. Thankfully.
If you want a laugh....ask me in a few months how deep the snow is. <g>
> >
> > Did you get much rain ( from Isabel )?
> >
>
> Not much. It started raining (gentle rain) late Thursday evening then
> tapered off by noon on Friday. Some mild winds off and on throughout the
> rain.
>
> How about you?
>
Marshall
Geoff Schaller
Were you referring to Devcon in Duetschland? If you are going then I'd love
to have a chat with you. I don't believe in Harbour or many of its aims and
so far have found it a serious waste of time. But perhaps I'm looking at it
wrongly or the wrong people have presented it. I am a commercial developer
so I certainly have a bias toward supported products etc. However, having
made my reasonably negaitve comments up front, I am still quite interested
in intelligent discussion on such subjects and I'm always prepared to modify
my point of view if the arguments are good enough. To date its been hard to
find anyone except evangilists to talk to. it would be refreshing to discuss
harbour openly and without prejudice.
Geoff
"pe" <pt_not...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:y4%ab.3786$Ie5.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Bob Arnold
"Marshall Rhinehart" <marc...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:rZ6bb.1835$iT4.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> If you want a laugh....ask me in a few months how deep the snow is. <g>
Don't have to wait ... with drought breaking before the certain advance of
spring in the central, NSW tablelands <g>
From what I heard, it's a credit to U.S. building standards that deaths were
as limited as they were. I'm especially glad that no-one, here (from amongst
those possible <g>), seems to have suffered.
Bob Arnold
Mark L. Cooper
>
> If you want a laugh....ask me in a few months how deep the snow is. <g>
>
Like I said before, I have friends that live in Buffalo. The stories they
tell.... They've mentioned staying in a hotel near work rather than try
driving home.
You guys must me a little nuts to live there in the winter<g>.
Mark L. Cooper
>
> > I was taking you seriously. I'll have to adjust my assumptions<g>.
>
> What I meant was I didn't think you were going to change languages, but
> you're welcome to view the thread if you miss Ilias yet. <g>
>
That is what I was trying to say about assumptions. I thought that only the
Aussies would be able to say (type?) such an outrageous thing with a
straight face<g>.
Mark L. Cooper
>
> I can see a normalisation* problem coming on <g>
>
Like I've mentioned in other threads, one of my other interests is the dog
world. We have Australian Cattle Dogs. I've met cattle dog owners from
Canada, the States, and Oz. In my _limited_ experience, the Canadians' sense
of humor is quite under-developed compared to you Aussies<g>.
I'm not trying to start a war here, just making an observation based on my
limited experiences.
pe
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bkk7ch$2l019$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
pe
Dear Neighbour,
Let me do you a favour, and get to the centre of the issue: Jim Carey is not
underdev... oh nevermind.
Paul
Gary Stark
"Mark L. Cooper" wrote:
> Paul,
>
> >
> > > I was taking you seriously. I'll have to adjust my assumptions<g>.
> >
> > What I meant was I didn't think you were going to change languages, but
> > you're welcome to view the thread if you miss Ilias yet. <g>
> >
>
> That is what I was trying to say about assumptions. I thought that only the
> Aussies would be able to say (type?) such an outrageous thing with a
> straight face<g>.
As Paul will tell you, I've paid clc a little visit and posted a few messages
just to ensure that everybody there is au fait with bilious.
For some reason he seems to be objecting to the fact that some people wish to
warn others about what he's like. He has yet to cotton on to the fact that
perhaps it's him and his behaviour that's at the heart of the problem.
Oh yeah, that would require a degree of perception on his part, wouldn't it?
Bob Arnold
dog
> > world. We have Australian Cattle Dogs. I've met cattle dog owners from
> > Canada, the States, and Oz. In my _limited_ experience, the Canadians'
> sense
> > of humor is quite under-developed compared to you Aussies<g>.
> >
> > I'm not trying to start a war here, just making an observation based on
my
> > limited experiences.
>
> Dear Neighbour,
>
> Let me do you a favour, and get to the centre of the issue: Jim Carey is
not
> underdev... oh nevermind.
> Paul
> > Mark
I remember once flailing (and failing) to keep up with a Canadian aerospace
engineer, in a canoe. My next-closest encounter (apart from with Canadians
on this NG) was probably listening to Sarah McLachlan. Two of the
unfunniest people ever. But highly competent. I still have to wonder if
they're scheming some last laugh <g>
Bob Arnold
Mark L. Cooper
>
> Dear Neighbour,
>
> Let me do you a favour, and get to the centre of the issue: Jim Carey is
not
> underdev... oh nevermind.
I apologize! My girlfriend pointed out the Red Green Show which I watch (and
enjoy!). I vaguely remember something about the McKenzie Bros, also.
But, from personal one-on-one experience....<g> Maybe the Aussies were so
far over the top that my sense of scale has been impaired<g>.
Ed Ratcliffe
If you get a chance to watch Sean Collins, enjoy!
Ed
Mark L. Cooper
>
> If you get a chance to watch Sean Collins, enjoy!
>
Will keep an eye out for him,
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA> Ed
>
>
Bob Arnold
> But, from personal one-on-one experience....<g> Maybe the Aussies were so
> far over the top that my sense of scale has been impaired<g>.
It'd just be Unaustralian to worry about anything like that <g> ...
No offence - I always admired the US's fussiness ...
Bob Arnold
Phil McGuinness
Well you will just love the French then....
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
----
pe
> Paul,
>
> >
> > Dear Neighbour,
> >
> > Let me do you a favour, and get to the centre of the issue: Jim Carey is
> not
> > underdev... oh nevermind.
>
> I apologize! My girlfriend pointed out the Red Green Show which I watch
(and
> enjoy!). I vaguely remember something about the McKenzie Bros, also.
Ahh yes, Red Green - I've seen it once or so. Does the CBC actually export
that? (The guy may be funny, but it just doesn't do anything for me - I
used to live across from Detroit, so maybe I picked up your sense of humour
(spelling aside)). For another take on whatever happens to be in the news,
(including Canadian politics), you want The Air Farce, or This Hour Has 22
Minutes.
BTW, apply appropriate sarcasm to above Jim Carey line <g>
Bob Arnold
news:bkmbf8$3actq$1...@ID-88745.news.uni-berlin.de...
> snip[ No offence - I always admired the US's fussiness ...]
>
> Well you will just love the French then....
>
> Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
That's different. I don't understand what the French fuss about.
Bob Arnold
Mark L. Cooper
>
> It'd just be Unaustralian to worry about anything like that <g> ...
Worry about what<g>?
Stephen Quinn
> Worry about what<g>?
That would be UNAUSTRALIAN to say<g>
Sounds like a lot of waffle about nothing, but then again I haven't been following the 'Ilias'
threads since I canned him.
There's been that many replies to 'Illias' posts these days it's almost not worth looking in here to
see if there's anyone having real problems with programming in VO.
--
CYA
Steve Quinn
Mark L. Cooper
> Ahh yes, Red Green - I've seen it once or so. Does the CBC actually
export
> that? (The guy may be funny, but it just doesn't do anything for me - I
I catch it about twice a month. It's on PBS in Columbus. I think I know what
you mean... a liitle bit goes a long way. I am a long time fan of duct tape.
In my sports car club days we called it racers' tape. It's usually a
featured item on Red Green.
> used to live across from Detroit, so maybe I picked up your sense of
humour
Were you in Canada south of the border?
> (spelling aside)). For another take on whatever happens to be in the news,
> (including Canadian politics), you want The Air Farce, or This Hour Has 22
> Minutes.
>
> BTW, apply appropriate sarcasm to above Jim Carey line <g>
>
I did<g>. I've never been a fan of weird faces and extreme body gyrations
(or foul language for that manner) as a substitute for real humor.
I really enjoyed early Bill Cosby. He had really funny stories that didn't
rely on on-liners or foul language.
Robin Williams CAN be extremely funny, but ometimes he's more like Jim
Carey. Definately not your typical Scotsman. My grandfather's grandfather
was ship's engineer (beam me up Scotty) on a steamer out of Glasgow. My
grandfather thought Robin was a disgrace to the Scottish race.
Mark L. Cooper
> > Worry about what<g>?
> That would be UNAUSTRALIAN to say<g>
>
I wasn't looking for an answer, just demonstrating I wasn't worried.
> Sounds like a lot of waffle about nothing, but then again I haven't been
following the 'Ilias'
> threads since I canned him.
This 'sub-thread' has been more a get-to-know-you thread than anything else.
The only relevance to VO is it is installed on the computers we're using to
chit-chat.
> There's been that many replies to 'Illias' posts these days it's almost
not worth looking in here to
> see if there's anyone having real problems with programming in VO.
I can assure you I'll be posting VO questions again after I get past my
firewall project<g>. I'll need re-trained, again.
pe
> Paul,
>
> > Ahh yes, Red Green - I've seen it once or so. Does the CBC actually
> export
> > that? (The guy may be funny, but it just doesn't do anything for me - I
>
> I catch it about twice a month. It's on PBS in Columbus. I think I know
what
> you mean... a liitle bit goes a long way. I am a long time fan of duct
tape.
> In my sports car club days we called it racers' tape. It's usually a
> featured item on Red Green.
>
> > used to live across from Detroit, so maybe I picked up your sense of
> humour
>
> Were you in Canada south of the border?
I was (well, am, but further East now). Munching a taco in my Igloo as we
speak.
>
> > (spelling aside)). For another take on whatever happens to be in the
news,
> > (including Canadian politics), you want The Air Farce, or This Hour Has
22
> > Minutes.
> >
>
> > BTW, apply appropriate sarcasm to above Jim Carey line <g>
> >
>
> I did<g>. I've never been a fan of weird faces and extreme body gyrations
> (or foul language for that manner) as a substitute for real humor.
>
> I really enjoyed early Bill Cosby. He had really funny stories that didn't
> rely on on-liners or foul language.
First album I ever owned was by Bill.
>
> Robin Williams CAN be extremely funny, but ometimes he's more like Jim
> Carey. Definately not your typical Scotsman. My grandfather's grandfather
> was ship's engineer (beam me up Scotty
... another fine Canadian.
> ) on a steamer out of Glasgow. My
> grandfather thought Robin was a disgrace to the Scottish race.
See, now Robin Williams can bring me to tears. The man was just not wired
on this planet.
Mark L. Cooper
>
> See, now Robin Williams can bring me to tears. The man was just not wired
> on this planet.
>
You definately don't want to be eating or drinking anything when Robin gets
on a roll<g>.
pe
> Paul,
>
> >
> > See, now Robin Williams can bring me to tears. The man was just not
wired
> > on this planet.
> >
>
> You definately don't want to be eating or drinking anything when Robin
gets
> on a roll<g>.
>
Fortunately, my view to spew ratio is high enough between me and the tv.