"PJP doesn't seem to care" ;-)
Alexander Terekhov
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Subject: Re: C++0x: Proposal for an additonal exception handling construct
References: <3d7a1ff7....@news.online.no> <c87c1cfb.0209...@posting.google.com> <3d8223a5....@news.online.no> <c87c1cfb.02091...@posting.google.com> <3d84b345...@news.online.no> <3D885EAB...@web.de> <3d891a64....@news.online.no> <3D89CACB...@web.de> <3d8a5751....@news.bluecom.no> <3D8B42F6...@web.de>
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"PJP doesn't seem to care" could be taken as
a personal attack, and so is not permitted by the moderation
policy/charter of comp.std.c++.
Hi,
The message below was submitted by you to a moderator of comp.std.c++,
either by posting a message to the group, or by sending E-mail to the
group's submission address, or by sending mail to the group's
administrative address.
Your message is not appropriate for posting to comp.std.c++, because
it does not fit the charter.
Charter:
comp.std.c++ is for technical announcements and discussion of the
ANSI/ISO C++ standardization process and the C++ standard, and for
discussion of the design and standardization of the C++ language and
libraries. Other discussion that is directly related to the C++
standard (not related merely to C++ programming techniques) is
also welcome. Posts should be cogent and free from personal attacks.
Questions about C++ programming techniques should instead be posted to
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Thanks,
-Moderator.
============================================ Full text of your message follows
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> To: comp-s...@moderators.isc.org
> From: Alexander Terekhov <tere...@web.de>
> Newsgroups: comp.std.c++
> Subject: Re: C++0x: Proposal for an additonal exception handling construct
> Message-ID: <3D8B42F6...@web.de>
> References: <3d7a1ff7....@news.online.no> <c87c1cfb.0209...@posting.google.com> <3d8223a5....@news.online.no> <c87c1cfb.02091...@posting.google.com> <3d84b345...@news.online.no> <3D885EAB...@web.de> <3d891a64....@news.online.no> <3D89CACB...@web.de> <3d8a5751....@news.bluecom.no>
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>
>
> ===================================== MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> "PJP doesn't seem to care" could be taken as
> a personal attack, and so is not permitted by the moderation
> policy/charter of comp.std.c++.
>
>
>
>
> ===================================== END OF MODERATOR'S COMMENT
>
> "Alf P. Steinbach" wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:18:22 +0000 (UTC), tere...@web.de (Alexander Terekhov)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Alf P. Steinbach" wrote:
> > >[...]
> > >> >Uhmm, do you mean >>try-SOFT-"catch"<< (the new construct)
> > >> >the one that does NOT catch UNEXPECTED exceptions and that
> > >> >DOES "rethrow" *automatically* (invoking terminate() if
> > >> >"cleanup" handler would try to throw something else...
> > >> >suppressing the original exception being propagated)? ;-)
> > >>
> > >> Nope, I've never heard about that before now. Sounds awful.
> > >
> > ><Forward Inline>
> > >
> > >-------- Original Message --------
> > >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:38:33 +0200
> > >Newsgroups: comp.programming.threads
> > >Subject: Re: pthread : nifty source code package
> >
> > I had to look up that thread to get your meaning. In short,
> > but correct me if I'm wrong, what you are referring to is the
> > problem of thread cancellation via exceptions,
>
> Not here/now. catch(...) WRT thread cancellation (and exit) is
> another problem. My reply to the thread on THAT topic was rejected
> by the c.s.c moderators -- I'll re-post it in the followup to this
> message but on unmoderated (and charterless ;-) ) comp.lang.c++.
>
> > where
> >
> > * If catch(...) catches the thread cancellation exception, then
> > code using catch(...) may inadvertently "swallow" a thread
> > cancellation.
>
> Yep, unless it rethrows (as it "normally" SHOULD).
>
> >
> > * Otoh., if catch(...) doesn't catch the thread cancellation
> > exception, then much of current code, including standard
> > library code, that uses catch(...), is not thread cancellation
> > safe.
>
> is not thread cancellation and thread exit safe; yup. PJP doesn't
> seem to care, though (no reply to the directly forwarded article
> on this problem that was rejected here, yet ;-) ;-) ).
>
> > This seems to be a catch 22.
>
> I don't think so. Thread cancel and exit just ought to be REAL
> exceptions.
>
> > Then we add to the soup,
> >
> > * If the code only uses RAII then the first exception of any
> > kind must terminate the thread.
>
> Uhmm. What makes you think so? *Recovery* (note that this has really
> nothing to do with "cleanup"/exception-safety/exception-neutrality/
> whatever) code DOES use >>catch<<... unless the problem/error is
> considered unexpected(only good to produce a nice core dump)/not-for-
> "local"-recovery and REAL recovery (cleanup of external resources,
> external transactions rollbacks, restart/failover, etc.) is done on
> some "higher" level -- fully isolated recovery/high-availability
> "system".
>
> > As I see it, discussing this in the absence of threading support in
> > C++ is probably unfruitful.
>
> try {/**/ } action_on_propagation_of(<whatever>) instead of "catch"
> does not really have anything to do with threads. The idea is to
> provide the same benefits as "cleanup catch" but NOT "stealing"
> unexpected/unknown exceptions from their throw points -- similar
> to what you get with RAII (and w/o exception specifications...
> which, "currently", is nothing but a rather silly way to inject
> catch(...)->unexpected() ;-) ;-) ).
>
> regards,
> alexander.
>
< Forward Inline >
----
Betreff: [FYI] Fwd: Re: C++0x: Proposal for an additonal exception handling construct
An: p...@dinkumware.com
Datum: 18.09.02 22:57:34
dev...@stump.algebra.com schrieb am 18.09.02 21:37:50:
> Hi,
>
> The message below was submitted by you to a moderator of comp.std.c++,
> either by posting a message to the group, or by sending E-mail to the
> group's submission address, or by sending mail to the group's
> administrative address.
>
> Your message is not appropriate for posting to comp.std.c++, because
> it does not fit the charter.
>
> Charter:
> comp.std.c++ is for technical announcements and discussion of the
> ANSI/ISO C++ standardization process and the C++ standard, and for
> discussion of the design and standardization of the C++ language and
> libraries. Other discussion that is directly related to the C++
> standard (not related merely to C++ programming techniques) is
> also welcome. Posts should be cogent and free from personal attacks.
>
> Questions about C++ programming techniques should instead be posted to
> comp.lang.c++ or comp.lang.c++.moderated. Questions that are specific to some
> particular platform should be posted to a group devoted to that platform.
>
> comp.std.c++ is moderated by panel. A submission will be sent randomly
> to one of the moderators, who will decide to post or reject it. There
> is also be an alias you can use to discuss matters (either individual
> posts or general policy) with all of the moderators.
>
> Submission address: std...@ncar.ucar.edu
> Contact address: std-c++...@ncar.ucar.edu
> List of moderators:
> Matt Austern
> Steve Clamage
> James Dennett
> Phil Edwards
> Fergus Henderson
> WWW home page: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/policy.html
>
> If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
>
> Thanks,
> -Moderator.
>
>
> ============================================ Full text of your message follows
> > From dae...@irje.UCAR.EDU Wed Sep 18 20:59:05 2002
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> > Received: (from daemon@localhost)
> > by irje.UCAR.EDU (8.9.1a/) id EAA02942
> > for f...@cs.mu.oz.au; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:59:02 -0600 (MDT)
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> > for comp-s...@moderators.isc.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:57:45 +0200
> > Received: by mail.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.2.0.98)
> > from Curry.ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (160.45.10.36) with esmtp
> > id ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:57:44 +0200 (MEST)
> > Received: by Curry.ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (Smail3.2.0.98)
> > from news.fu-berlin.de with bsmtp
> > id ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:57:44 +0200 (MEST)
> > To: comp-s...@moderators.isc.org
> > From: Alexander Terekhov
> > Newsgroups: comp.std.c++
> > Subject: Re: C++0x: Proposal for an additonal exception handling construct
> > Message-ID: <3D885C3F...@web.de>
> > References: <3d7a1ff7....@news.online.no>
> >
> > <3d8223a5....@news.online.no>
> > <3d84b345...@news.online.no>
> > Reply-To: tere...@web.de
> > X-Orig-NNTP-Posting-Host: ss5.bluebird.ibm.com (129.42.208.143)
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
> > X-Accept-Language: en
> >
> >
> > "Alf P. Steinbach" wrote:
> > [...]
> > > _CATCH_ALL
> > > _DELETE_CRT(_Ptr->_Decref());
> > > _RERAISE;
> > > _CATCH_END
> > > }
> > >
> > > Now P.J.Plauger here uses a style that's well suited to
> > > shortening template code, a style some people disagree with,
> > > but you think his expertise is faulty?
> >
> > Y'know, despite having released their "Dinkum Threads Library" stuff
> > (including "The C Interface is very similar to the thread support
> > interface defined in the the Posix Standard (also known as pthreads)"),
> > it seems to me that Dinkum folks have NEVER tested their Std-C++-Lib
> > stuff on >>threaded<< POSIX/C++ platforms that support thread cancel
> > and exit (AIX and IBM Visual Age C++ that ships Dinkum C++ library,
> > for example) -- testing the "exception safe" behavior under thread
> > cancel and exit on such platforms, I mean. Please don't tell me that
> > this has really nothing to do with "standard C++" -- I know. ;-) ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Message-ID: <3D7832C3...@ot.removethis.com.andthiscrap.au>
> > Newsgroups: comp.programming.threads
> > Subject: Re: pthread : nifty source code package
> >
> > > I wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Regarding uninitialized_fill from the header, the copyright
> > > >> notice in the file makes it pretty clear that I'd be in violation
> > > >> if I posted it without permission on a public newsgroup.
> >
> > Alexander Terekhov wrote:
> >
> > > > Does it have "catch(...)" to cleanup/destruct already constructed stuff
> > >
> > > > if some constructor (invoked via "placement new") would throw?
> >
> > > [...] I suspect that destructors/cleanup-stuff won't be called at all...
> > > due to catch(...) NOT being "called" (on thread cancel/exit).
> >
> > Yes, that *does* look like what would happen.
> >
> > (...and now I sit back and wonder why I've never had any trouble with
> > cancellation in Sun C++ & Solaris pthreads. Must be because I
> > instinctively avoid dodgy design styles that would expose such bugs.)
> >
> > - MikeM.
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Message-ID: <3D7CE607...@web.de>
> > Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++
> > Subject: Re: struct comp on IBM C++ compiler
> >
> > "P.J. Plauger" wrote:
> >
> > [..."off-topic" stuff...]
> >
> > > Map and set do have a required member called comp. Since we supplied our
> > > Standard C++ library to IBM, I see that we've added oodles of this->
> > > qualifiers in front of the comp references within the class common to
> > > all maps and sets. It could be that VisualAge C++ is rightly confused
> > > by the presence of the global comp, given the latest lookup rules
> > > mandated by the C++ Standard. (Only a few compilers have implemented
> > > these rules.)
> >
> > Are there any chances that Dinkum C++ Library will someday get rid of
> > catch(...)/rethrow stuff that is used currently to implement exception
> > safety/cleanup... on AIX at least? Also, quite a few bits in your SC09-
> > 4949-00/"Standard C++ Library Reference" docu produce probably FALSE
> > impression (to some folks) that catch(...)/rethrow is MANDATED by the
> > C++ standard all over the Standard C++ Library: < for example >
> >
> > "If an exception is thrown during the insertion of a single element,
> > the container is left unaltered and the exception is rethrown."
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > regards,
> > alexander.
Attila Feher
[SNIP]
It is one thing to be offensive (what you usually do) and abusive... but
I have never thought you are capable of being proud of it and
advertising it in such sneaky ways. So far I thought it makes sense to
read your post. Now I have a reasonable doubt. This behavior - what
you have just showed up - is simply beyond acceptable and
unprofessional.
A
tom_usenet
<tere...@web.de> wrote:
<SNIP>
What was the point of posting this here? Was so you can make a google
link to it in other posts? Your arguing technique is worse than a
poor, overpaid lawyer who attempts to swamp the opposition with
paperwork. Can you not form concise, to the point arguments?
Tom
Alexander Terekhov
tom_usenet wrote:
>
> On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:34:30 +0200, Alexander Terekhov
> <tere...@web.de> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> What was the point of posting this here? Was so you can make a google
> link to it in other posts?
Dead accurate.
[...]
> Can you not form concise, to the point arguments?
Sorry, do some work and try to "filter" it out... or just ignore it.
regards,
alexander.
Alexander Terekhov
Your high-awareness-level w.r.t. *MY* motivation ["be offensive and
abusive", "being proud", etc.] aside for a moment, to tell the truth,
I also find it extremely entertaining that/how addition of one or two
short kinda-"ironic" remarks can [at times] drive people crazy; yeah,
you may call it "trolling", I guess. And, BTW, tt seems that you were
not "exceptional" in this case too, Attila. Thank you. ;-)
<Forward-Inline>
-------- Original Message --------
Message-ID: <3D8C8CB8...@web.de>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:14:00 +0200
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++.moderated
Subject: Re: volatile -- what does it mean in relation to member functions?
Alex Pavloff wrote:
>
> I've been doing some mulithreaded programming recently and have been
> using the volatile keyword. ....
Well, "The intent of the "volatile" attribute is to change the code
generated by the compiler on references to memory tagged with that
attribute." More stuff on this can be found on google groups: ;-) ;-)
---
Searched Groups for Andrei group:comp.lang.c++ author:tere...@web.de.
Results 1 - 2 of about 6. Search took 0.09 seconds.
Sorted by relevance Sort by date
Re: thread safety of static initialization
... by Terekhov Attila, I don't give talks (I'm not in this business);
Andrei does. The "newsgroup posts that Terekhov cited" were written
by a) Aleksey Gurtovoy ... comp.lang.c++ - 11 Sep 2002 by Alexander
Terekhov - View Thread (43 articles)
Re: stl deques and "volatile"
Gerhard Prilmeier wrote: [... Opposed to that, Andrei Alexandrescu
wrote a lengthy article about using volatile in multhithreaded
programs: http://www.cuj.com ... comp.lang.c++ - 23 Aug 2002 by
Alexander Terekhov - View Thread (9 articles)"
---
regards,
alexander.
</Forward-Inline>
> A
A
--
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=IHZi9.11869%24WT1.1355995%40news20.bellglobal.com
"....
I suggest the following article:
http://www.cuj.com/experts/1902/alexandr.htm?topic=experts
--Bertin
[ Send an empty e-mail to c++-...@netlab.cs.rpi.edu for info ]
[ about comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: do this! ]"
tom_usenet
<tere...@web.de> wrote:
>> Can you not form concise, to the point arguments?
>
>Sorry, do some work and try to "filter" it out... or just ignore it.
But if you do the work it is done once. If everyone who reads it has
to do it, then the effort is being replicated many times. Since
presumably you are trying to make a point, why not make it directly?
Then you might even get a response. I suspect that fewer and fewer
people are willing to expend the time and effort it takes to follow
threads that you are participating in/hijacking.
No one is going to listen to your points if you can't be bothered to
present them concisely.
Tom
White Wolf
hírüzenetben: 3D8F1418...@web.de...
>
> Attila Feher wrote:
> >
> > Alexander Terekhov wrote:
> > [SNIP]
> >
> > It is one thing to be offensive (what you usually do) and abusive... but
> > I have never thought you are capable of being proud of it and
> > advertising it in such sneaky ways. So far I thought it makes sense to
> > read your post. Now I have a reasonable doubt. This behavior - what
> > you have just showed up - is simply beyond acceptable and
> > unprofessional.
>
> Your high-awareness-level w.r.t. *MY* motivation ["be offensive and
> abusive", "being proud", etc.] aside for a moment, to tell the truth,
> I also find it extremely entertaining that/how addition of one or two
> short kinda-"ironic" remarks can [at times] drive people crazy; yeah,
> you may call it "trolling", I guess. And, BTW, tt seems that you were
> not "exceptional" in this case too, Attila. Thank you. ;-)
Well, it did not. I have only made a non-ironic remark about your poor
attempt at an ironic remark.
Alexander Terekhov
tom_usenet wrote:
>
> On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:13:05 +0200, Alexander Terekhov
> <tere...@web.de> wrote:
>
> >> Can you not form concise, to the point arguments?
> >
> >Sorry, do some work and try to "filter" it out... or just ignore it.
>
> But if you do the work it is done once. If everyone who reads it has
> to do it, then the effort is being replicated many times. Since
> presumably you are trying to make a point, why not make it directly?
Okay, "a point" is this: Dinkum C++ Library [The Standard C++ Library
implementation] uses catch(...)/rethrow... and THIS {currently} doesn't
work on many threaded C++ implementations [on AIX, Solaris, etc.] w.r.t.
thread cancellation and thread exit (pthread_exit()) "exceptions". RAII
"workarounds" (even for cleanup-only) would really help here. Another
problem is that catch(...)/rethrow (w/o ES-like protection) DOES "steal"
exceptions and provoke UNNEEDED unwinding. That's also BAD. "Soft-catch"/
action_on_propagation_of(<whatever>) would probably solve this in a
somewhat better way than "traditional" RAII. Finally, catch(...)/rethrow
is really error prone with respect to silent suppression of "original"
{top-level} exception being propagated:
<Subject: Re: Exceptions in Destructors, c.l.c++.mod, quoted>
David Abrahams wrote:
[...]
> > I've never heard of the false negative case for uncaught_exception.
> > Under what circumstance can it return false when it's not OK to throw?
>
> It's a much simpler case:
>
> struct logfile
> {
> ~logfile() {
> if (close() == error && !uncaught_exception())
> throw close_failed();
> }
> };
>
> void f() // supposedly exception-neutral
> {
> try {
>
> }
> catch(...) {
> logfile f;
> f << whatever;
> throw;
> }
> }
>
> The fact that an exception won't call terminate() doesn't make it
> OK to throw. The problem is that as long as we're in a catch
> block, we're still "effectively unwinding".
regards,
alexander.
Alf P. Steinbach
wrote:
I have no experience with Alexander's postingss except the one in
[comp.std.c++] where he replied to one of mine.
Yes, I think the title is offensive and constitutes a personal attack.
But then, it isn't personal attacks that are disallowed by the
charters of the moderated groups. It's personal attacks where you
actually name a person and resort to loaded language, as he does here.
Which I don't consider sneaky at all, it's very up-front; but no more
applaudable for that.
In my relatively long Usenet experience I've seen time and time again
that opponents who get frustrated, or who e.g. run out of arguments (I
don't know the reasons why), resort to very sneaky personal attacks,
often based on first implying that some person means X and Y and Z
(e.g., by arguing strongly against X, Y and Z in a reply), then
referring to persons who believe X, Y and Z as novices, unprofessional,
or whatever, which is something that even the person attacked must often
agree with, because what's been literally written is literally true.
I guess if you follow my postings you won't have to search long to find
*three* recent (3 days ago) examples (not by me, but by people replying
to my postings directly or in the same main thread). These kinds of
attacks usually pass moderation, and there isn't a thing one can do about
it, unless one wants to sink down to the same level -- and yes, I've
tried that <shame>, but it doesn't really work, except to get some anger
out of the system, and it's never a good idea to post in anger.
So, Alexander isn't the only one resorting to personal attacks, but he's
the only one you (AFAIK) have responded to with such a characterization,
or at all. In my view he seems to have done this very openly and out
of pure frustration, in order to get some reply (which he failed to get
earlier), and in my view your characterization of him, especially the
word "sneaky", might more correctly (not that I recommend it!) be applied
to persons that are perhaps more well-known.
Now, how's *that* for a sneaky attack? Who could these persons be???
It doesn't matter, really; most folks are Ok, and we can live with the
few who aren't, or who at some moment in time aren't. But given the title
of this thread I state for the record that I don't mean PJP, I don't mean
you, I don't mean myself, and I don't mean Alexander. And to avoid any
confusion, I think he did a less than intelligent thing; instead he should
just have changed the title, removed personal references, and reposted.
I'll take an up-front attack any day as opposed to to a sneaky one.
It's just so darned difficult to avoid attacking persons, implicitly
or explicitly. You did it in your reply to Alexander, and then I did
it above.
Cheers,
- Alf
White Wolf
"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf_p_s...@yahoo.no.invalid>
[SNIP]
> I'll take an up-front attack any day as opposed to to a sneaky one.
> It's just so darned difficult to avoid attacking persons, implicitly
> or explicitly. You did it in your reply to Alexander, and then I did
> it above.
He knows the guys email address. He knows the guy - or pretends to know.
So to tell bad things about someone in an NG which he might not read - out
of context, presenting only ones own viewpoint: that is sneaky for me.
Rather dirty politics than anything a programmer would be proud of.
BTW I know a very-very freindly person. He is a well known name here.
There is _only_ one person in his killfile. Guess who it is.
--
_________________________________________
White Wolf aka Attila @ LMF
ICQ#: 26070936
More ways to contact me:
http://wwp.icq.com/26070936
_________________________________________
Alexander Terekhov
White Wolf wrote:
[...]
> > or explicitly. You did it in your reply to Alexander, and then I did
> > it above.
>
> He knows the guys email address.
You mean p...@dinkumware.com? Yes I do.
> He knows the guy - or pretends to know.
I neither know the "P.J. Plauger" <p...@dinkumware.com> guy
nor pretend that I know him.
> So to tell bad things
Yes, Dinkum C++ Library (and many others libraries) is FULL of
"bad things", indeed. catch(...)/rethrow is just one of them.
> about someone in an NG which he might not read - out of context,
I've posted the entire "context".
> presenting only ones own viewpoint: that is sneaky for me.
Dinkum folks (PJP including) are quite welcome to present
their viewpoint(s)... and I'd have no problems with "sneaky"
ones too. ;-)
> Rather dirty politics than anything a programmer would be proud of.
I disagree. ;-)
> BTW I know a very-very freindly person. He is a well known name here.
> There is _only_ one person in his killfile. Guess who it is.
C'mon Attila, who's that "very-very freindly person"? Please.
regards,
alexander.
White Wolf
> White Wolf wrote:
> [...]
> > > or explicitly. You did it in your reply to Alexander, and then I did
> > > it above.
> >
> > He knows the guys email address.
>
> You mean p...@dinkumware.com? Yes I do.
So why don't you post to _him_ if you want something from _him_??? What do
we have to do with your private dispute with PJP? It has to be private,
since you make unprofessional remarks about his personality or behavior.
> > He knows the guy - or pretends to know.
>
> I neither know the "P.J. Plauger" <p...@dinkumware.com> guy
> nor pretend that I know him.
Of course you do. Decent people do not call someone a "guy", unless they
have absolutely no respect for that person (note: we do not talk here about
a 16 years old one) or knows him enough to do it.
> > So to tell bad things
>
> Yes, Dinkum C++ Library (and many others libraries) is FULL of
> "bad things", indeed. catch(...)/rethrow is just one of them.
And yet, you were attacking the person and not the library design.
> > about someone in an NG which he might not read - out of context,
>
> I've posted the entire "context".
Or what you have selected to quote.
> > presenting only ones own viewpoint: that is sneaky for me.
>
> Dinkum folks (PJP including) are quite welcome to present
> their viewpoint(s)... and I'd have no problems with "sneaky"
> ones too. ;-)
If they read this NG nowadays.
So why don't you post then to alt.flames? This tone belongs there.
> > Rather dirty politics than anything a programmer would be proud of.
>
> I disagree. ;-)
Good for you.
> > BTW I know a very-very freindly person. He is a well known name here.
> > There is _only_ one person in his killfile. Guess who it is.
>
> C'mon Attila, who's that "very-very freindly person"? Please.
Well,m he has another attribute. He is not only friendly but asked my
friendly to _not_ let anyone know who he is. So he shall remain anonimous.
--
Jaggz
year. I have seen more people turned away because they're not following the
standard procedure for posting on NGs or they're OT. I understand if a
person is askin about Pascall, etc. in a C++ group - there's grounds to tell
the person to get a clue. Then after observing all the many different
flames and sneaky attacks and what not, grown men and women are getting so
irritable and frustrated over these "attacks." I've been called a kid or
poked at as if I was a very young kid in here a few times, and yet some of
you that have pointed that out are acting like it now over something as
silly as a message that only displays words. There is a reason why there's
a block message button, stop writing these ridiculously wrong arguments over
trivial things and making these huge strands of messages. If you're that
offended by the content in that message then block them and be done with it.
Taking a step in that direction might actually encourage more people to come
to this NG for help rather than look elsewhere.
JJ
Alexander Terekhov
White Wolf wrote:
[...]
> > > He knows the guys email address.
> >
> > You mean p...@dinkumware.com? Yes I do.
>
> So why don't you post to _him_ if you want something from _him_??? What do
> we have to do with your private dispute with PJP? It has to be private,
> since you make unprofessional remarks about his personality or behavior.
Really? Wow. Okay. Well, but...
First off, I don't consider it "private". Secondly, I've asked
PJP (rather directly) a question about that rethrow issue on
this newgroup and later forwarded (directly, as [FYI]) the
rejected comp.std.c++ posting -- the first one that "does not
fit the charter" (but with no specific reasons given). It seems
to me that other than a sort-of catchy "Subject:" you've read
and/or understood NOTHING from my OP here. If so, please kindly
shut up, White Wolf. I got your point but I have a different
opinion with respect to "flames"/"respect"/"friends"/"guys"/
whatever.
regards,
alexander. < making friends mode off >
P.J. Plauger
> > So why don't you post to _him_ if you want something from _him_??? What do
> > we have to do with your private dispute with PJP? It has to be private,
> > since you make unprofessional remarks about his personality or behavior.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Really? Wow. Okay. Well, but...
>
> First off, I don't consider it "private". Secondly, I've asked
> PJP (rather directly) a question about that rethrow issue on
> this newgroup
Uh, I think I saw that one go by about a week ago, but the discussion
was so murky and the question so curiously framed that I assumed it
was rhetorical. In any event, I didn't see a need to answer. Nor do
I now.
> and later forwarded (directly, as [FYI]) the
> rejected comp.std.c++ posting -- the first one that "does not
> fit the charter" (but with no specific reasons given).
I also recall getting something that I thought was a FYI from a
moderator, explaining why the post was rejected. I basically agreed
with the moderator, and saw no need for a followup.
I guess you could summarize my position as PJP doesn't seem to care.
P.J. Plauger
Dinkumware, Ltd.
http://www.dinkumware.com
Alexander Terekhov
"P.J. Plauger" wrote:
>
> "Alexander Terekhov" <tere...@web.de> wrote in message news:3D9308E7...@web.de...
>
> > > So why don't you post to _him_ if you want something from _him_??? What do
> > > we have to do with your private dispute with PJP? It has to be private,
> > > since you make unprofessional remarks about his personality or behavior.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Really? Wow. Okay. Well, but...
> >
> > First off, I don't consider it "private". Secondly, I've asked
> > PJP (rather directly) a question about that rethrow issue on
> > this newgroup
>
> Uh, I think I saw that one go by about a week ago, but the discussion
> was so murky and the question so curiously framed that I assumed it
> was rhetorical. In any event, I didn't see a need to answer. Nor do
> I now.
That's OK.
> > and later forwarded (directly, as [FYI]) the
> > rejected comp.std.c++ posting -- the first one that "does not
> > fit the charter" (but with no specific reasons given).
>
> I also recall getting something that I thought was a FYI from a
> moderator, explaining why the post was rejected. I basically agreed
> with the moderator,
Uhmm. <dreams on> new "-mod/alt" c.s.c++ moderator <dreams off>.
Yeah. Thanks for really good moments. ;-)
> and saw no need for a followup.
No problem either.
> I guess you could summarize my position as PJP doesn't seem to care.
I see. To Attila/WW: and you're crying like a little baby: ATTACK!
FLAMES!! ABUSE!!! ;-) ;-)
regards,
alexander.
White Wolf
"Jaggz" <sgra...@swbell.net> az alábbiakat írta a következő hírüzenetben:
eKsk9.1207$bv4.16...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
You are right! Remember what has happened to Europe when the US and UK has
just "blocked" the message and closed their eyes? The name Adolf Hitler
might ring a bell. ;-)
White Wolf
> White Wolf wrote:
> [...]
> > > > He knows the guys email address.
> > >
> > > You mean p...@dinkumware.com? Yes I do.
> >
> > So why don't you post to _him_ if you want something from _him_??? What
do
> > we have to do with your private dispute with PJP? It has to be private,
> > since you make unprofessional remarks about his personality or behavior.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Really? Wow. Okay. Well, but...
>
> First off, I don't consider it "private". Secondly, I've asked
> PJP (rather directly) a question about that rethrow issue on
> this newgroup and later forwarded (directly, as [FYI]) the
> rejected comp.std.c++ posting -- the first one that "does not
> fit the charter" (but with no specific reasons given). It seems
> to me that other than a sort-of catchy "Subject:" you've read
> and/or understood NOTHING from my OP here. If so, please kindly
> shut up, White Wolf.
You know you will be the last person on Earth from whom I take a command. I
will shut up when I want to. I believe I have asked you to behave
professionally. You have asked - in return - so that I shut up. Well, it
may have been the way from the East of the Elba but it is not like that even
there anymore. I had no problem with you expressing professional oppinion.
I had problems with your better-not-to-describe style. Your message could
have been presented in a form which isn't offending. And you would even
have a chance to get answered or even taken seriously. But I am afraid if
you did not learn it so far you will never get it.
> I got your point but I have a different
> opinion with respect to "flames"/"respect"/"friends"/"guys"/
> whatever.
Yes, certainly we do. For you personal attacks are part of the politics.
For me: not, as long as they can be left out.
> regards,
> alexander. < making friends mode off >
Good to know that so far you were friends... So actually if you do not
accuse someone (like PJP) of neglecting his professional work you must be in
love with the person.
Alf P. Steinbach
>
>"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf_p_s...@yahoo.no.invalid>
>[SNIP]
>
>> I'll take an up-front attack any day as opposed to to a sneaky one.
>> It's just so darned difficult to avoid attacking persons, implicitly
>> or explicitly. You did it in your reply to Alexander, and then I did
>> it above.
>
>He knows the guys email address. He knows the guy - or pretends to know.
>So to tell bad things about someone in an NG which he might not read - out
>of context, presenting only ones own viewpoint: that is sneaky for me.
>Rather dirty politics than anything a programmer would be proud of.
>
>BTW I know a very-very freindly person. He is a well known name here.
>There is _only_ one person in his killfile. Guess who it is.
Me, Alexander, you???
Please *don't* answer that.
But I wouldn't be surprised to be in a killfile. I'm probably in several. ;-)
Cheers,
- Alf
Alf P. Steinbach
>> C'mon Attila, who's that "very-very freindly person"? Please.
>
>Well,m he has another attribute. He is not only friendly but asked my
>friendly to _not_ let anyone know who he is. So he shall remain anonimous.
Just curious, but is the case that here we have two guys with names associated
with historical warriors, and one on the sideline with name associated with law
enforcement? If so, no wonder it gets a little heated! ;-)
(I don't think my own name means anything, btw.)
Cheers,
- Alf